Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 4 Nov 1927

Vol. 21 No. 9

PUBLIC BUSINESS. - RELIEF OF UNEMPLOYMENT (RESUMED DEBATE).

Motion—"That the measures hitherto adopted by the Government for the relief of unemployment are insufficient and ought to be extended immediately."—(Deputy Morrissey).

Debate resumed on the following amendment:—

To delete all words after the word "That" and substitute therefor the words—

"recognising that further measures for the relief of unemployment will involve additional provision out of public funds and may consequently impose fresh charges on productive enterprise, the Dáil is of opinion that while no reasonable method of promoting further employment should be neglected, care must be exercised in the adoption of relief measures to ensure that the evil which it is sought to remedy is not aggravated by the placing of an undue strain on the resources of industry and agriculture."—(Minister for Finance.)

Mr. A. BYRNE

This is the fifth day on which we have been engaged in efforts to find a solution for the unemployment problem, and so far no feasible proposals have been put forward, although we had the combined attempts of every side of the House. I cannot add much to what has already been said on the subject. The speeches contributed towards finding a solution were rather disappointing. Until somebody can come forward with feasible proposals it depends upon the Government to provide immediate temporary relief for the destitution in the country. I avail of this opportunity to draw the attention of the Government to the extreme poverty that exists in Dublin. In reply to a question by me a couple of days ago the Minister for Industry and Commerce said that there were practically 8,000 seeking employment through the Dublin Labour Exchange. I hope when the Government and their officials are allocating the relief grant that fact will be taken into consideration. The majority of these people are in a most poverty-stricken state, and in fact it is impossible to find words to describe how bad their condition is. I hope a reasonable share of the grant will be devoted to the districts that are most deserving. I am aware that in various parts of the country poverty of a similar kind exists, and I hope that first consideration will be given to those districts where the poverty is greatest. I cannot suggest anything by way of a solution of the problem the Government have to tackle, but I hope they will get the support of every section of the House in their efforts to provide a solution. I wish to draw attention to the dumping of foreign-manufactured goods in the city of Dublin. We have buses coming in that cost anything from £2,000 to £2,500. These are landed at the North Wall, highly polished, varnished, upholstered and ready for the road without one halfpenny being spent on them in the Saorstát. I think the day has come to stop that. I take that kind of motor vehicle and the fancy high-priced motor car coming into the State as luxuries. I hope the Government will tax heavily all kinds of luxuries before any attempt is made to tax the foodstuffs of the people.

If we put a reasonable tariff on these foreign built buses coming into the country I am satisfied we will be able to provide employment for many hundreds of decent men who are now signing up. There is a great number of coachmakers, upholsterers, brass finishers and others ready to go to any employer who is willing to take them, but there is no encouragement given to work in this direction. Foreign manufacturers are dumping these goods freely in the City of Dublin to-day. I hope sincerely that the Government will take steps to do something in connection with these motor buses and high-priced motor cars that are coming into the country and on which a penny piece is not spent here. On a hoarding at Charlemont Bridge this morning I saw a great display of fancy and decorative posters, auctioneers' bills and others. I could not find a name on more than half of these fancy posters, some of which advertised the goods of Irish firms. I ask the Government to see, as is done in England, that the origin of all kinds of goods coming into the Free State is indicated. It is not fair to allow people who claim to be trading as Irish manufacturers to spend money on imported printed matter for the purpose of advertising Irish goods. It is not right, I think, that foreign printed matter should be allowed in for the purpose of advertising Irish goods. I noticed, in the case of a Dublin house carrying on business within a few yards of O'Connell Bridge, that the poster on which their goods are advertised is stated to have been printed in Acton. If that trader is getting a good price for his goods in this country he ought to remember the big number of printers who patronise Irish firms and are now idle. We are all aware that many firms in Dublin, drapery stores and others, which are supported by the working classes, firms in O'Connell Street, George's Street, Mary Street, etc., hand out to their customers fancy paper bags that are made in England.

The English paper industries have protection in their own country, but they have a free market here. The result is that our paper manufacturers cannot compete against them here nor can they compete against them in their own protected market. Up to about 12 months ago brown paper was imported from England into this country at roughly £20 a ton. A firm with Irish capital started to supply brown paper here, and the moment they looked for the Irish trade the foreign ring instantly dropped their price from £20 to £15 a ton, and paid £2 10s. 0d. per ton on the export of their goods here. That is to say they dropped £5 a ton in the price, while the cost of export amounted to £2 10s., making a total of £7 10s. a ton. The firms on the other side who did that still continued to charge £20 per ton in their home market, which is proof that they merely cut prices for the time being to capture the trade here. Of course, when they capture the trade here, the price will be raised again. The result is that our Irish firms are driven out of business. I hope the Government will pay some attention to this matter of unfair competition in the paper trade, and to the question of printed matter coming here. Because of it our people are unable to compete with the foreigners. They have a free market here and a protected market at home.

I appeal to the Government also to do something in connection with the woollen industry, for which Ireland was famous some years ago. Work in the woollen industries at the present time is practically at a standstill. The mills are working short time. These industries are quite capable of supplying the whole needs of the Free State with goods equal to, if not better than, the goods imported from the other side. I join with the remark that was made by the President some evenings ago that in order to remedy this state of affairs we ought to do everything possible to encourage our people to ask for Irish goods when they are spending their money. I would appeal to Deputies when they want to spend £5, £6 or £10 on a suit of clothes to ask to be shown Irish materials. I make that recommendation to Deputies in the House who possibly do not give it a thought when they are spending their money. I heard one or two Deputies during the last three or four days speak on this unemployment motion, and I do not think they had a shilling's worth on them that was made in Ireland.

Mr. FLINN

Name, please?

Mr. CONNOLLY

On a point of order, is the Deputy in order in speaking at this juncture?

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

He is.

Mr. A. BYRNE

Again a matter that might give a little employment was raised by me last week and supported by Deputy Briscoe.

Mr. M. HENNESSY

The Deputy has made a statement alleging that Deputies in this House do not wear Irish material. I do not think that statement should go without being refuted, and I do not think there is a Deputy in this House who is not wearing Irish material.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

What the Deputy said is he thought Deputies did not wear Irish material, and thought is free.

Mr. CONNOLLY

Deputy Anthony was in possession on the adjournment last night, and I wish to know if Deputy Byrne is entitled to speak.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

There is no doubt Deputy Anthony moved the adjournment of the debate and was entitled to speak to-day if he were here at the re-opening of it. Deputy Anthony did not rise and present himself to me when the debate was resumed.

Mr. ANTHONY

I understood last evening when I left here that the debate on unemployment was to be resumed at 2 o'clock. I was below stairs dealing with correspondence. I beg to ask that when Deputy Byrne is finished, I shall be allowed to speak.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

I will allow Deputy Anthony to speak if I can, but I cannot make a contract that I will allow him to speak after Deputy Byrne. I took care to say last night that there was no arrangement with regard to the debate.

Mr. ALFRED BYRNE

I just wish to refer to the question of tyres. We are told that there is an import into the Free State of £500,000 worth of tyres. If £500,000 worth of tyres were manufactured in the Saorstát it would give considerable employment. I recommend that proposal to the Government. I am not inclined to rush into protection as a whole-hogger, but I say reasonable proposals should be put forward to give valuable employment to many now idle. A tariff on tyres would encourage a tyre company to start here. We all know the amount of work the starting of tobacco factories in Dublin City gave. Encouraged by the results of those ventures, I suggest to the Government that a tyre factory would be a very valuable asset in the country, and I would like if they could see their way to put on a sufficient tariff to encourage these people to come over. Again, there is a class which the Government's relief measures will not touch at all. That is the big number of iron and steel workers idle in the city of Dublin. It is the hardest-hit trade in the country at the moment. I think the Minister might recommend to the Tariff Commission the advisability of putting a small tax on the manufactured steel work that is coming across here for building purposes. You have girders like a set of meccano toys. You will see them coming in ready to be bolted and nutted. I am aware in Government Departments they take care that a certain amount of work must be done and that the article must be finished in Dublin City, but they went no further than their own Government work. All those articles are coming here. It is the wholesale dumping in every trade that has such a huge number out of employment in this country. We have a right to levy our own taxes. I fear when the Relief Grant is distributed that there will be very many left without work. It will not go far enough, and other measures will have to be adopted to relieve the very poor who will not be considered. Some immediate relief will have to be given to those who are not fit to work. I know of very many cases where men between the ages of 60 and 70, through hunger and hardship for the last couple of years, are now broken down. No employer will engage them. That is a matter which must be attended to. These people think they are fit for work, but an employer who wants output will not employ them for some reason or other. That class will have to be considered. I am sorry I cannot put forward some feasible proposals for the relief of unemployment. I sympathise with the Government and those who are anxious to see this question settled, and I will give whole-hearted support to any efforts that the Government may make to give temporary relief.

Mr. DAVIS

This is the sixth day of the debate. There were times while the debate was going on when I was at a loss to understand whether it was on the big question of unemployment and distress or some other question entirely foreign to it. At times the debate resolved itself into what I might term a kind of football match between Deputy Lemass and the Minister for Industry and Commerce. In that football match North Mayo came in, but if it did, it came in, I suggest, as the football, and was kicked about from one post to another without much consideration for the interests of Mayo. It was kicked about with one consideration before the minds of those concerned, and that was to see how they best could score off each other. Deputy Lemass discovered in 1927 that North Mayo existed, but I think, from what I could gather, that he had no knowledge that it existed before that date. The Minister for Industry and Commerce proved conclusively that it did exist even so far back as 1925. I must say that, as well as I can judge, I was struck by the fact that the Minister for Industry and Commerce seemed to score off Deputy Lemass, but Deputy Lemass, who has been out of the ring for the past five years, was doubtless at a disadvantage, and was consequently likely to make slight mistakes. Two years is not much of a mistake. It is a mere trifle to people who deal only in higbrow economics. With regard to the condition of the constituency for which I am one of the representatives, I wish to avail of this opportunity of telling the House some of the facts of the situation there. It is not my intention to occupy the time of the House at any great length.

I represent a constituency in which I can state that there is distress, dire and acute. It was mentioned the other day, by some Deputy on the other side, that there was distress in the barony of Erris. With that statement I thoroughly agree. There is distress in the barony of Erris. I might also mention that there is just as great distress in many other localities throughout the constituency of North Mayo. When I say that, it is perhaps right that I should mention the localities in which there is distress. They are Lahardane, Foxford, Ardagh, Parka, Straide, Ballina, Belmullet, Crossmolina, Kilfian, Bohola, Backs, Killala, Ballyorry, Ballysokeary, Attymiss, Borrisconlon, and Ballycastle. I mention these districts deliberately with the object of bringing them under the notice of those who will have the responsibility of allocating the money which will be placed at the disposal of those unemployed and in distress. When I state that there is distress in a certain locality I am sure that the Deputies here would be anxious that I would bring forward some statements or give some particulars that would substantiate what I claim does exist in the matter of distress in those areas. I will take, for instance, Belmullet Union. As is known, I am sure, to every Deputy here, prior to the amalgamation scheme each Board of Guardians was made up of the representatives elected locally. One could not be a member of one of these old Boards of Guardians unless one were resident in the district for which one was to be elected or a ratepayer within the Union. These were the qualifications, and consequently one would need to be living in the immediate vicinity in order to have the responsibility of administering that Union. If we take now the Union of Belmullet we will find that in the year 1918 the amount expended under the head of what was then called Outdoor Relief was between £250 and £300. The amount of money expended now in that Union under the head of Home Assistance is £2,000 odd. In other words, eight times as much money is expended to-day in that Union as was expended when their own people had the responsibility for the expenditure of outdoor relief in their own hands. I mention that matter in order to show you that the expenditure is now in the hands of people who are the representatives of ratepayers in other districts, and who have themselves to pay for this Home Assistance in Belmullet. That, I think, is the best proof that I can adduce that there is distress in that area, and that the people who have to pay through their own pockets recognise that distress exists, for they have no hesitation in coming to the assistance of the people concerned, to the assistance of people in distress, and to give them the necessary assistance to tide them over their difficulties. You have the figure of £2,000 now as compared with £250 in 1918.

That is the position to my knowledge, and I speak as a member of the County Board of Health in Mayo. That is the position as it exists to-day. Therefore, I claim that there is distress in that area. I also claim that there is equal distress in many other areas in North Mayo. I have mentioned those areas, and I hope the Minister will take a note of them. I have heard it stated that there were certain sums at the disposal of the county councils which might be expended if the county councils had bestirred themselves. Such is the case, I believe, in many counties, but the fault does not lie with the county councils. In all these cases the county council had a limited amount of machinery at their disposal, and unless they were to incur serious responsibility on their own behalf and on behalf of the ratepayers whom they represent they could not purchase additional machinery which at the end of a certain time, and after a certain amount of work had been carried out, might become so much scrap on their hands. The result would be that such machinery would be an absolute loss to the ratepayers of the county. In the County Mayo I am aware that we have a considerable amount of machinery in use to-day which we did not buy. We hired that machinery. We brought it in there, and we are carrying on with it as best we can in the circumstances, and carrying on as speedily as possible.

With regard to the areas to which this road work might give employment I say that that employment is not given in the areas where it is most needed, that is to say the areas where there is most distress. That employment is given along the main roads, the trunk roads, and the roads constructed under the national road scheme. The way in which in my opinion this money might be expended with effect and with benefit to those who are really deserving and who really need it, would be in the matter of drainage work along certain roads which suffer from flooding in a manner that is a serious consequence to the public at large because the drainage is not attended to. These roads cannot be kept right because of the condition of the lands along which they run. As a result of the flooding of those roads from these causes there is no doubt but their lifetime is considerably less than if the drainage of the land along these roads were looked after. If the drainage of the land along these roads were attended to it would be a great advantage in adding many years to the lifetime of these roads. In addition to that there is no doubt that there is in the hands of the county councils the power of compelling the owners of property adjoining those roads to carry out this drainage work, but in many instances this would be a great hardship and a great injustice to those concerned. For instance if a man had a long stretch of bog land adjoining a road and if the county council took it into their heads to inflict that task on him—and I may say that I use the word inflict deliberately—the hardship of having to drain that land which might not be worth one shilling, would be a very great hardship and injustice indeed. County councils as a rule— and I speak for North Mayo in particular—have refrained from any harsh treatment of that kind in regard to people that they might make legally responsible. If this money that is now going to be made available in Mayo were utilised in that way much employment would be given.

In addition there are in the mountainous districts many people with very small valuations, and in those cases the county council would not be justified in making a road to their homes. If this money were utilised there might be perhaps, only one or two people residing in a townland but this money would help to make roads to their holdings and if expended in that way, it would be well expended. The county council could not do it as the return from the locality would be such as to make it a great hardship on the other ratepayers and it would be an unjust impost on local taxation. That was one of the great objections. If these roads were taken into consideration now and if arrangements were made so that the people afterwards could be responsible for their maintenance, then their construction would not be an impost on the local rates and the roads would be a great relief, a great boon, to the people concerned.

These are matters that require and deserve consideration when it comes to the expenditure of this money. I think that is a feasible way of expending the money in a manner creditable to those concerned and beneficial to the people in whose interests it would be expended. I appeal to the Government to take these things into consideration, to consider them carefully. As a representative of the North Mayo constituency, I appeal to the Government to give to that constituency more consideration than it has received in the past. I make the statement deliberately that North Mayo has received but very scant consideration, as far as I know, in the past. I hope that now there will be a change and that North Mayo will be extended the same treatment at least as other counties throughout the Saorstát. If it does not receive that treatment we know whom to blame. The circumstances demand that the county should receive some consideration. Nobody can deny that there is distress in Mayo, and nobody can deny that the county has been somewhat neglected in the past. I appeal to those responsible to give ear to the wishes of the people, and the representatives of the people there, and to bring to bear on this question their best consideration so as to carry out work that will be beneficial to the people and creditable to the Government.

Deputies Ruttledge and Anthony rose.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The situation is this: I am going to call on Deputy Ruttledge, unless he gives way to Deputy Anthony. There have been 48 speeches on this motion and amendment, including eight speeches from the Labour Party, 18 from the Government side of the House—and in that 18 there were three members of the Farmers' group—17 from the Fianna Fáil Benches and five from persons who do not belong to any of these categories. An understanding has been reached, I am informed, that Deputy Morrissey will be allowed to conclude the debate, say, at 2.10 p,m. Every Deputy who desires to speak cannot possibly be fitted in before that, even if they do make short speeches. I appeal to any Deputies who do talk to make short speeches. I will allow Deputy Anthony to speak if Deputy Ruttledge gives way to him now. It must be remembered that the Dáil is not going to adjourn for years. Deputies will be surprised to find the number of opportunities that will be offered them to say all the things they have said and want to say now.

Mr. ANTHONY

It required occasional reminders from the Labour Deputies that the House should come down to the terms of the motion on unemployment, and with very few exceptions, indeed, it would appear that Deputies from the two big Parties were more engrossed or concerned in their old antagonisms than they were in the question of the relief of unemployment. In discussing a motion such as this it is, of course, inevitable that Deputies should wander into the domain of tariffs. I do not propose to follow along those lines. I shall reserve any observations that I shall have to make dealing with the question of tariffs to a time when the whole position of fiscal policy in this country comes up for consideration.

I shall preface what I have to say by stating that I do not under-estimate and I do not show lack of appreciation of any efforts that the Government has made in the direction of employment. I do suggest, however, that these efforts were not whole-hearted efforts, but that they were piecemeal and belated efforts. Some of the Fianna Fáil Deputies outlined schemes of economic revolution which, though they might possess some merit, would not help to relieve the unemployment problem within the next two or three months. It has been emphasised, I think, by Deputies from all parts of the House that this question is one requiring immediate attention, and that owing to the grave crisis, for grave crisis it is, caused by unemployment, we should tackle the matter in no halting and no hesitating manner, and that immediately.

Now, I think it was the Minister for Education who rather welcomed the idea that Deputies should, in addressing themselves to this problem, deal with the question as it affected their own particular areas. I propose to treat the question along those lines. Personally, I confess to a growing impatience at being compelled to sit here for the last few days and listen to dissertations on economics chiefly delivered by Deputies who, I believe, knew very little about the subject of political economy. It was all very well to listen to those economic discussions which were purely academic discussions; it was all very well for Deputies who might take only an academic interest in the unemployment question; but coming as I do from the City of Cork, representing as I do Cork City constituency, to me the question of unemployment is not merely an academic one. We of the Labour Party are brought into close personal contact with the unemployment problem in our various constituencies, and for that reason I respectfully submit we have a better knowledge and a clear knowledge of this subject, this appalling tragedy of unemployment, than any other Deputies of this House.

The Minister for Finance appeared to be sceptical as to the extent of starvation, or semi-starvation, that existed as a result of unemployment, and said that it was entirely in the nature of a smoke-screen to bring the question of starvation into the matter at all. I assure him that in the City of Cork and all over my constituency semi-starvation does really exist, and I could show him in the course of one day visible evidence in the form of thousands of well-defined cases of malnutrition and under-feeding, not to speak of the want of clothing or the slums and the unhygienic conditions of living. I suggest that the present unemployment problem constitutes a grave national emergency, and I say that if immediate measures are not taken to provide work uncovenanted benefit should be provided. I agree with the Minister for Finance that there is in uncovenanted benefit inherent grave faults and great dangers; but the situation, so far at least as Cork City and environs is concerned, is so grave that I suggest it is the only immediate way in which relief can be given to the unemployed. I am aware that we cannot go on making roads indefinitely.

Queries have been put to us by many on the Government side as to what constructive policy or measures of a remunerative or economic character we would propose to apply as a remedy. The building and repairing of roads, arterial drainage and other measures have been suggested. But there are districts in Cork constituency, such as Ballincollig, Shanbally and Ringaskiddy, within a few miles of the city, which had, before the Treaty was signed, to depend for a livelihood on the presence of the British military or naval forces, but whose livelihood is now gone. There is an urgent and crying need in those districts for immediate relief, and I suggest that the Minister for Local Government should cause an examination to be made into the conditions there. If he did so, he would find that I have not over-estimated and that I do not use any exaggeration when I say that more than fifty per cent. of the people there are bordering on semi-starvation. I do not propose to read much from the speech made by the President; I look upon the reading of long extracts from speeches as so much padding in the speeches of Deputies. The President suggested that "Labour Deputies might well take out the costs in respect of engineering works and other works." He went on to say that they should not leaves the sales to members of the Government, and said: "It should be a matter of pride with them to show that in respect of output and efficiency the Irish workpeople can compare more than favourably with others." We of the Labour Party have always taken a pride in the efficiency and output of our workpeople, and have always held that they could compare favourably with the workers in any other country, given equal or nearly equal conditions.

The President went on to say that he appreciated the work of Irish craftsmen on the Four Courts building. But while he said something of new industries in and around Dublin, I want to say something of an old and well-established industry in Cork that has practically ceased to exist. I refer to the Cork Spinning and Weaving Company, popularly known as the Blackpool Flax Factory. This company went into liquidation in 1925. The stock was examined by four of the principal Belfast creditors, who expressed themselves entirely satisfied, both as to the quality and the price of the commodity manufactured. Notwithstanding the continued depression in the linen trade and the severe competition met with from home and foreign trade rivals, I think that this institution could again be made a paying concern. I have interested myself in the company, and have elicited a number of facts which should be of interest to the House and to Irish capitalists, and I do hope that some attempt will be made to do something for the industry. The things which operated in the closing down of the factory were the slump after the war, the Belfast boycott and other economic forces. In order to assist in carrying out a scheme for taking over the property and re-starting it, some small additions in machinery would be required, but the amount that would have to be spent on that would be infinitesimal as compared with the results it would have in the ultimate employment of well over a thousand operatives. A thousand persons absorbed into the employed ranks might appear not to be many in a large industrial centre, but in a place like Cork City, where there is such industrial depression, misery and want, the absorption into industry of even a thousand people would be a very big thing. I might mention a rather important factor in the industry, and one that I think should be attractive to the Minister for Industry and Commerce and to people who might be prepared to invest money in what should and would prove, with a little assistance, an economic proposition, that from 1899 to 1923, the period during which this company traded, the dividends ranged from 4 per cent. in 1902 to 8 per cent. in 1920, and that the 5 per cent. Cumulative Preference shares also carried a 4 per cent. bonus. The concern ran from 1921 to 1923 at a loss, and consequently no dividend was paid.

The reason why I stress that feature of industrial life in my constituency is that, in view of recent experiments in connection with the growth and culture of flax, I would suggest to the Minister for Industry and Commerce that he should cause some investigation to be made as to the practical utility of these experiments. If the process of flax culture is cheapened or the output increased, the improvement will of necessity be reflected in the industrial side of the flax industry. For that reason, and also for the very important reason that the Cork factory is the only one of its class in the Free State, and in view also of the strong likelihood that many of the highest skilled operatives, on account of present conditions, may have to leave the country, if their friends across the Channel can send them their passage money, I hope and trust that these facts will weigh with the Minister and also with any Irish or foreign capitalist who may see an economic proposition in this concern. Whether or not it was relevant to the question of unemployment is a question, but we had a discussion as to the desirability or otherwise of introducing foreign capital here.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy has been speaking twenty minutes now; I do not want to stop him, but——

Mr. ANTHONY

I will not say any more about foreign capital. Another phase of the question, so far as it affects my constituency, is that, owing to recent changes in the railway service of the country, due to amalgamation, much hardship has resulted to the railway workers, particularly to the railway shopmen, by which term I mean tradesmen, such as carpenters, engineers, boiler-makers, and vehicle-builders. At the time of the amalgamation the shop-workers on the Bandon Railway numbered 102. Now they number something between 70 and 80. Those employed on the Muskerry Railway, a light railway running into Cork, were also reduced very much, while the shops of the Passage Railway Co. have really ceased to function, the result being that more than 29 shop-workers have been thrown out of employment. There are, roughly, about 140 or 150 between these two relatively small concerns. It is bad enough to have these railway workers reduced in numbers, but those who are left have been subjected to short time, which means a loss of from 23s. to 25s. a week to each of them. Deputy Good spoke of the shipbuilding and engineering industries——

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

The Deputy is only leaving Deputy Ruttledge and any Deputy on the Government side of the House 25 minutes. It is not fair.

Mr. ANTHONY

I only want to remark, that the suggestion thrown out by Deputy Good for a mutual understanding between capital and labour is one which, without going into a definition of it, we might easily accept. I would like to remind Deputy Good and others that that has been with me, at any rate, a pet hobby for many years. I recognise that more practical good can be done by mutual cooperation and by a round table conference than can ever be achieved by a strike. But, I would like to remind Deputy Good and others that if we are to get the shipbuilding and engineering trades going in Cork or in any other industrial centre in the Free State it is up to the Deputy and those associated with him in the Chambers of Commerce to see that shipping companies operating in the Free State, from which most, if not all, their revenue is derived, are compelled—I am not a coercionist, and I do not like to coerce anybody else— to have repairs, at least, done in the Twenty-Six Counties.

As far as the standard of education is concerned, I suggest that the reason why many children have to leave school at an early age is because their parents are unemployed. The elder ones have to go out and work to help to maintain the home. The Deputy spoke of boys in the fifth standard whose education appeared to be very poor. Might I suggest to Deputy Good and to the House—and this is not the orthodox Labour view, perhaps, but it is mine—that our output in M.A.'s, B.A.'s, and M.B.'s is abnormal for a country of this kind, and that we are cursed with too many professors.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Would not that be a good note for the Deputy to conclude on so as to give at least twenty minutes to Deputy Ruttledge? It is really unfair, seeing that the Deputy has been speaking for twenty-five minutes.

Mr. ANTHONY

I will finish in five minutes.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

No, it is too much. The Deputy has made a speech which has lasted twenty-five minutes. I want to give Deputy Ruttledge an opportunity of speaking. The Deputy can raise all this on some other occasion.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

I feel, and I am sure most Deputies on this side of the House, and most of the Deputies, if not all, on the Labour Benches, feel that this debate, which has gone on for the last four days, has been so much waste of time from the attitude that has been adopted by the Government. It was quite clear from the speech of the Minister for Industry and Commerce that he was more keen on making miserable debating points than trying to show the House what he exactly had in his mind as to the measures that might be adopted for the relief of unemployment and distress. There has been a good deal of controversy about a statement which the Minister for Industry and Commerce is alleged to have made about allowing people to starve. I do not think that it matters very much whether the Minister ever said that or not, because the attitude adopted by the Government shows that they are determined to close their eyes to the fact that there is starvation in the country. The Minister for Finance said that there was no starvation and no distress. The Minister for Industry and Commerce referred to a report in the "Irish Times" as "that biased thing in the ‘Irish Times.'" I suppose the implication was that that was an incorrect or exaggerated report. That is a matter between the Minister and the "Irish Times," but I have before me a report in a local newspaper which sets out the poverty, misery and distress that exists in that locality. The Minister for Industry and Commerce contends apparently that the report in the "Irish Times" is incorrect, and, I suppose, implies that there is no poverty and starvation in this place. I will deal with that later.

The President has tried to make some of his jocose points—I suppose on the Government Benches it does seem a joke to bother about the miserable unemployed—about Irish manufactures. If the Government were sincere on this question of giving employment to Irish industries they might have set an example by utilising all that was possible of Irish resources. Seeing the Minister for Defence opposite just reminds me that the Army authorities are not very much concerned about Irish industries when there is some concern in Aldershot that would give employment to Englishmen. I have here a permanent pass issued by the Department of Defence which I find is printed and made up by Messrs. Gale and Polden, Aldershot. After all, it is only trying to trick the House into feeling that the Government are standing out for Irish industry when they themselves are trying secretly and by back-door methods to avail of every possible opportunity to give employment to English concerns. The Minister for Defence will not contend, I am sure, that he could not get that printed in Dublin just as well as by English friends in Aldershot. Still, I suppose, close association, or a little more, for the last four or five years makes those on the Government Benches think in terms of the neighbouring country, rather than the unfortunate people starving here. If there was an effort made to try and build up the industries of the country, and if that effort was fostered by the example of a Government that had at heart, and not only on their lips merely for lip service, a desire to build up the industries of the country, a good deal of the unemployed could be absorbed.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

took the Chair.

Mr. RUTTLEDGE

The President talks about his carpets—I do not want to go into that. Carpets are one portion of industry. There are hundreds of Irish industries which could be strengthened and built up if an effort were made by the Government. They know that industry after industry has closed down and that people have been thrown out of employment wholesale. The spirit that obtained in 1915 or 1916 down to, say, the end of 1921 of supporting Irish industries seems to have gradually weakened in the country, and if it has weakened, responsibility must rest mainly on the heads of the Government. There has been no attempt made to encourage Irish industries, to encourage the wearing of Irish clothes, etc. Industries have been neglected by them. They had the means and the methods to advance them. On every platform that we have stood we have advocated building up the industries of the country and utilising them for the benefit of the people.

Questions have been asked by the Government as to what means might be proposed for the relief of unemployment. If any Deputy were asked to devise means for relieving unemployment in his area, and if he had to deal with a Government that took the slightest interest in the unemployed, he would be able to devise practical schemes that would give an ample and sufficient return. The Government know quite well, of course, but, like spoiled children, they think they have only to wave their hands and say "no starvation" and everybody will believe it. Deputy Davis, speaking for North Mayo, has, I am glad to say, contradicted the Minister for Finance as to no starvation and no distress in that area. The people in that district, particularly in the Erris area, it is a well-known fact, no matter how the Government try to fool the people or to misrepresent the condition of things, have become imbeciles owing to starvation. I shall give extracts from a report. The Minister for Industry and Commerce may call it a biased thing, but it will give some idea, perhaps, of the appalling conditions that exist in that district. It is dated the 29th October, 1927, and states:—

"For a period over fifty years the Press of Mayo has published articles depicting the state of chronic poverty in which the majority of the people of the barony of Erris live. Successive English Governments heard the cry unheeded, or only adopted measures that temporarily silenced the appeals that were made. With the coming into existence of a native Parliament the barony were full of hope that at last ameliorative measures would be adopted and that something would be done to raise them out of the slough of despond in which for centuries they have remained. So far the hope has not fructified, and to-day the position is such that if something is not immediately done to ameliorate the conditions in the barony a calamity of the greatest magnitude is certain to occur. The Indian in his wigwam lives under happier and more hygienic conditions than do the majority of the farmers of Erris, and this is a part of the country where 90 per cent. of the people speak the Irish language. The majority of the farmers have no out-offices. Cattle, horses and donkeys, where the farmer is lucky to possess them, find shelter in the kitchen, while the pig is made comfortable under the bed. The standard of living generally is the lowest in Europe. In six cases out of twelve the farmers and their families never eat meat of any kind except at Christmas. Outbreaks of fever and other infectious diseases are frequent. Generations of poverty, starvation and disease have made them fatalists, and the people live in a continual state of despair. The present position of affairs in Erris is a scandal to civilised government. Publicity has been given to the case of Mrs. Barratt, of Gortmelia, and her five children, who, for some time, have been living on potatoes and ‘water sweetened with sugar.' There are hundreds of other families in the barony in an equally sad plight. A few cases taken at random, but typical of the majority, will help to visualise the harrowing state of poverty, starvation and misery through which this remnant of the unadulterated Celt has been reduced. Stephen Geraghty, of Mullaghroe, lives with a family of seven children in a house consisting of one apartment, 18 feet by 12. It has only one entrance—no back door. In the house there is only one bed made of straw and covered with a few rags. At the end of the apartment is a pigsty made of rough stones and covered with a piece of a quilt. It accommodates a pig and an ass. The only furniture in the house is a small chest of drawers. When Mr. Gilvary, the Clerk of the Belmullet Proposals Committee, visited Geraghty, he found him suffering from cancer of the lip. He has one acre of land, and has been unable to pay the rent for the past five years. When his case came before the Proposals Committee the members in their generosity granted him 4s. a week relief —truly a magnificent sum on which to maintain a human being and his seven children. Bridget Murray, her sister and her brother, all between 50 and 60 years of age, live at Inver. The pangs of hunger which they have suffered have reduced the three of them to a state of imbecility. They have no land and are unable to work. The Proposals Committee consider that 8s. a week is sufficient to provide the necessaries of life for these two mentally affected women and a brother. The husband of Mrs. Staunton went to the harvest in Scotland to try and earn some money for the maintenance of his wife and five children, but was not long in the country until he was stricken down with illness and died. The starvation he had undergone in Erris completed its work in Scotland. His widow is in possession of three acres of land, the valuation of which is 30s. The only stock she has is a decrepit old cow, and this is her only visible means of existence. With her five children she has to live on 3s. a week outdoor relief. James Reilly, of Ellypoint, is the father of four children, one boy and two girls, aged eleven years; he has also another boy aged nine years. He has five acres of land of questionable value. No one in the house is earning, and the Proposals Committee think that 3s. a week relief is a magnificent sum to provide food for five persons."

There are a number of other cases on the same scale showing the conditions under which these people have to exist. There are people in that area anxious and willing to work who are starving, and no attempt is made to provide employment for them. The Congested Districts Board used to provide, in that area, crochet and lace making to give assistance to the fishermen. The present so-called benevolent Government has forgotten about these things. Crochet that used to bring in considerable sums of money to those people every year is now wiped out. Lace making similarly is almost wiped out. As to the fisheries we know the result of the disaster that happened the last week. These disasters may bring public opinion to bear upon the Government to do something for this neglected and forgotten barony. At any rate, I am sure the Government is now awakened to the fact that there is such a place as Erris and the western seaboard. They do not seem to have known that up to now, except at election time.

We are somewhat fortunate in North Mayo in having more elections than other parts of the country. There were two by-elections there, and at election time we always have work for a fortnight or so before the polling day. New roads and drainage schemes were to be started, and a big number of officials came down before the election to map out the land and that kind of thing. But when the election was over the roads were not made and the maps disappeared in some peculiar way or other, and the poor, unfortunate people did not see any more of the officials. I do not want to make any point in connection with the disaster, but the people will assert that if they had been provided with proper boats that disaster would not have occurred. They contend that with heavier fishing boats they could have weathered the storm and that unfortunate fatality would have been avoided.

The French have assisted the people of Erris. Repeated appeals were made to the Ministry of Fisheries, but went by unheeded. The Ministry appeared to be better engaged in acting the part of a pay office to superfluous officials, but it certainly has done nothing for the fishing industry of this country. With their appeals to the Fishery Department unheeded they sought help elsewhere, and they have got help and assistance from the French people, who gave them gear, brought them over to France and educated them there, so that some of them are now able to earn their livelihood. The people of Erris have got beyond the stage when they hope to look with success to the present Government to do anything for them. In the Lacken portion of the area the people have long laboured under a great hardship. Deputy Tierney, if he were in the House, would bear me out in this, for he was a candidate at a by-election, and he made them a promise. It was pointed out to him by the people of Lacken that 140 families had to wade more than knee-deep through the tide to get to Mass every Sunday. The Land Commission were brought down before the election and the people were assured that this place would be filled in and one and a quarter square miles of land reclaimed. But the election being over, all the assurances were forgotten and nothing has been done since, and these 140 families have to wade to Mass every Sunday through the tide to the mainland.

There is work that would have done good if the Government were anxious to do anything for the people. At any rate, the people were told it was passed by the Land Commission. I do not know whether that assurance had any effect on the feeling of the people. It is said the Land Commission approved of the scheme, but it has never been gone ahead with since. Similarly, very much more could be made of the fishing industry if it had not been for the middleman. Fishing is the only means of existence in that area, and the fish caught the night previously are taken away by what is called the middleman on the following day. The people have no means, and nothing is done by this stand-still Fishery Department to try and help that industry.

If curing stations were established in Lacken and Erris these people would be able to retain the fish until the glut on the market had passed and they could wait for a favourable market. As I say, there is very little hope of the Fisheries Department doing that. Similarly, a number of these people are unable to fish through want of proper gear. During the big war the fishing gear went bad and when they tried to utilise it afterwards they found that they could get no assistance from the Department to provide them with gear. There are a number of other constructive works that might be done in that area in the way of having piers erected. There was a pier promised at Balderrig. I do not know whether the Government will consider that matter now, but, if it is not considered, they might bear in mind that there is always the possibility of a disaster occurring in view of the condition of that portion of the coast.

There is a similar necessity for a pier at Lacken and for some provision being made by which heavy boats would be placed at the disposal of the fishermen in those districts. If something is not done, there is no doubt that the people in that barony will be facing starvation. I do not know if the statement of that fact will have any impression on the Minister for Industry and Commerce. I do not think it will. So far as we can gather from the debate, the Government are quite callous, cold, and insensible as to making any provision whatever, or recognising in any way that the conditions in the country are what they are. I cannot see how any Department in the State could be ignorant as to the conditions which exist in the country. I think every member of the Government should be aware that the conditions are what they have been represented to be by several Deputies. The Government are probably more concerned in joking in debate, or trying to score miserable debating points. A lot has been said about money being voted for roads. The main road schemes are not the boon they have been represented to be so far as we can see in County Mayo. The other day two men came to me—I have their signed statements—to try and get employment on contract work which a man named Grainger was contracting for in connection with the macadamising of the streets of Ballina. These men were told that nobody would get employment except ex-National Army men.

Mr. CONLON

Without desiring to interrupt the Deputy may I say that an understanding was arrived at by which Deputy Morrissey would reply at 2 o'clock. There are a number of Deputies who wish to speak but who are deprived of doing so owing to that arrangement. I think that the local affairs which interest Deputy Ruttledge might be dealt with on another occasion.

Professor TIERNEY

On a point of personal explanation, I understand that Deputy Ruttledge stated that I had made election promises to the people of Lacken that certain things would be done. I deny that absolutely. I never made such promises to the people of Lacken at any time. I discussed matters with the parish priest—he ought to have the letter—and I asked him to be careful to make no public reference to the discussion I had with him, in case it might be misconstrued into an election promise.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

An arrangement was made that Deputy Morrissey would be allowed to reply at ten minutes past 2 o'clock. Deputy Ruttledge has traversed a good deal of ground, and there are two other Deputies with whom we all sympathise who endeavoured to catch the eye of the Chair on the other four days in the course of the debate. One is Deputy Sheehy and the other is Deputy Jordan. I am prepared to allow each of them five minutes, and after that I will call on Deputy Morrissey.

Mr. COBURN

Am I to understand that when Deputy Morrissey makes his speech no other Deputy will be allowed to speak?

Mr. CONLON

That was agreed to.

Mr. COBURN

By whom?

Mr. CONLON

By the House.

Mr. COBURN

I am not aware of the fact. I think when Deputy O'Hanlon put a question about that last evening he was given to understand that every facility would be given to Deputies to speak.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

An agreement was reached to-day that Deputy Morrissey would be allowed to reply at ten minutes past two and that the debate would conclude after that. If Deputies are not aware of that agreement the fault is their own, as they were not here.

Mr. T. SHEEHY

Unemployment exists. We all deplore it. It is not confined to the Free State. It is universal. At this moment statesmen all over the world are endeavouring to grapple with it and to find a remedy. I was surprised during this discussion to hear Deputies denounce the Government because of their inactivities during the last five years in regard to unemployment. If these Deputies were so deeply interested in the welfare of the workers and the unemployed, why did they not come into the Dáil five years ago and give a helping hand to the Government, who were struggling under great difficulties? It was a well-known fact that there was not a shilling in the Treasury when they first took office and began to put into operation the Treaty, that charter of liberty won by Michael Collins.

AN LEAS-CHEANN COMHAIRLE

Perhaps the Deputy would confine himself to the motion and not give us history.

Mr. SHEEHY

This is the spirit of their fairplay. They do not wish to hear the truth, but the responsibility for much of the unemployment lies at their door. President Cosgrave in West Cork, which I have the honour to represent, was not unmindful of the condition of the workers. I was proud to hear the Labour Deputy from West Cork acknowledge here that during the last four or five years he got grants from the Government to make roads, repair piers, and build bridges, with the result that unemployment decreased a little. The Urban Council of Skibbereen, of which I am a member, got a grant from the Government in 1924 of £2,850 to provide houses. There are fifty other insanitary houses in the town, and I appeal to the Government to allocate some of the money which they are about to give to those who live in unsanitary houses in West Cork, and to remember that the people are flying from our shores to Boston and New York. I remember the labourers in my constituency coming before the urban council and asking for houses which we could not provide. I appeal to the Government to continue on the lines which they have adopted to help the people, and not to mind the sneers of those who did nothing. I will go down to West Cork and tell the people that I have every hope and confidence that the Government will co-operate with the Labour Party and that with their combined efforts they will save the country from destruction.

Mr. JORDAN

By way of a change, I would like to point out that, as far as one could gather from the speeches delivered from the different benches here during this debate, it appears to be the general opinion that unemployment is universal in the country. That being so, it is only natural to expect that every class and every creed is affected. While I have every hope, from the suggestions that have been put forward by various speakers, that in the near future a solution will be found for the permanent relief of unemployment, I must say, with other Deputies, that steps must be taken for immediate relief. As a Deputy representing the constituency of Galway, I hope when the £150,000 comes to be divided that Galway will get its share, and that when it does get its share the people who are giving it will remember the fact that if unemployment is universal so is distress universal. When the money is given to Galway we hope that a clause giving preferential treatment will be absent from the conditions accompanying the grant. We do not want the people who will send the money to Galway to think that it is only ex-army men who are in distress. There are also ex-Bolshies, as they are called, in distress. If they were not treated in a fair and impartial manner in the past because we were absent for five years, we are here now to see that these people will get a fair show, and that when work is going they will get a fair share, but at the same time we do not want to victimise any ex-army man when the work is being distributed.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I suppose I can safely say that members of all Parties are glad to see me rising, and particularly glad when they know that I have got only fifteen minutes to reply. I think it is just as well my time should have been curtailed a good deal, because if I were to try and reply to all the statements that have been made during the five days occupied in discussing—I was going to say my motion—but really in discussing everything connected with the Free State, and many things not connected with it, I would be setting myself an impossible task. A very unreal element was introduced into this debate. Most of those who took part in it after the first few sentences forgot that they were talking about unemployment, and we had speakers from the two big parties more concerned with trying to score off each other and trying to convince the House that it was the other fellow who was responsible for all that had happened. I must say that in my opinion it was the President who gave the lead in that way. Deputy Ruttledge started off by saying that as to the speakers of the Government Party their only contribution had been to score debating points, small points, off his Party, and he proceeded to tell us what the Government Party did immediately before the election, and what they did immediately after the election. These are petty points also, and probably if the Fianna Fáil Party were in power it would be a good thing for the unemployed if we had a lot of elections.

One thing was clear to me, that the Government Party approached the question of the unemployment on this occasion in a much better spirit than they ever did before. That was, I believe, because we have the Fianna Fáil Party in the Dáil. I want to make the point that the Government could not have treated the unemployed in the way they have for the last five years if the Fianna Fáil Party had been here. There is no question about that, and, therefore, the Fianna Fáil Party themselves are as much to blame for the hardships that have been endured by the unemployed for the last five years as the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. We were read lectures from both sides. We were told by Deputy Seamus Bourke that the Labour Party took its policy from the heart of the British Empire. The Labour Party did not take it policy from the heart of the British Empire when we had the munition strike nor did it when it forced the British Government to open the prison doors and release the hunger strikers. Deputy Bourke also told us that the Labour Party should rise to the occasion. What occasion? Rise to what? Then we had Deputy Gerald Boland, who said the Labour Party should be more vehement, more defiant, more audacious. What does Deputy Boland want us to do? To start flinging writing pads and ink bottles at the members of the Executive Council? I suggest that if defiance and vehemence and audacity were able to settle the unemployment problem Deputy Boland's Party would have settled it during the last five years. The Labour Party are here to-day as we were here five and a half years ago. Our main concern then was the unemployed, and our main concern to-day is the unemployed. Deputy Mulcahy, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health, told us that there was £1,500,000 available for work on roads. What exactly did the Minister mean? Did he mean there had been £1,500,000 put into the hands of the local authorities and that they were in a position to expend that money immediately, and that they were not doing so?

General MULCAHY

That they could get the money immediately.

Mr. MORRISSEY

Did the Minister mean that, or did he mean the money was there but that they had not the machinery to spend it?

General MULCAHY

That the money was there and could be had at once if the county councils had the necessary machinery and organisation for going on with the work. The responsibility for providing the machinery was with the county council. So far as machinery was necessary for the work, the Department in the earlier years undertook to pay interest on loans for getting additional machinery in order that the county councils could go ahead with the work.

Mr. MORRISSEY

There is no use in providing for unemployment if the money cannot be spent. You might as well tell the unemployed that there are £180,000,000 in the Irish banks.

General MULCAHY

If the Deputy could make a suggestion as to what could be done further to enable the county councils to make use of the money, we would be very glad of the suggestion.

Mr. COBURN

Might I ask the Minister for Local Government why it is that the sum of £16,000 allocated for the main road running through the main street of Dundalk has been withheld? If, as he says, money is available, why has not that £16,000 been spent? I would like to know from him whether the delay that has taken place in the spending of it has been occasioned by surveyors employed in the office attached to the Department. Is the delay that has taken place for the last seven or eight months due to them?

General MULCAHY

That question can be answered very briefly and simply. There was a difference of opinion between the local people responsible and the Roads Department here as to to the kind of surfacing that ought to be put on the roads. That dispute has been entirely solved now, and work in connection with that £16,000 can be gone ahead with at once.

Mr. MORRISSEY

In reply to the Minister's invitation to me. I would suggest to him, seeing that we are all agreed that there is a lot of unemployment and a great deal of distress throughout the country, that, as regards the sum of £1,500,000 which he says is available in his Department, the restrictions applied in connection with it might be removed and the county councils allowed to use that money in the making of all roads within their jurisdiction.

General MULCAHY

And scrap ordered schemes of any kind.

Mr. MORRISSEY

If it is necessary to scrap schemes in order to give food to the people, then scrap them. If I had time at my disposal there are many points which I would like to deal with. There was one thing about the debate that I liked. It was this: that we had all sides admitting that the unemployment problem was one that should be faced, and that it was a question of ways and means. Having got as far as that, I think the question of ways and means could be settled if it is approached in the proper spirit. The Minister's amendment talks of the "care that must be exercised in the adoption of relief measures to ensure that the evil which it is sought to remedy is not aggravated by the placing of an undue strain...." There is nothing very strong in that. We do not want the Government to adopt measures this year which would make conditions for the unemployed worse next year. We do not want to do anything of the sort. But I am submitting that unemployment itself is a greater burden upon industry than any relief measures can possibly be. What is the position? Unless the unemployed are going to be allowed to starve they must be fed, and the cost of feeding them must come out of the product of industry. It is then a question of the area of charge. If the cost of feeding them does not come from State funds it must come from local funds, and the sooner the Government and the House in general realise that unemployment is waste, and that all waste must be paid for, the sooner they will realise that the cheaper, the better and the more effective way of dealing with the unemployment problem is to provide work.

I think it was the President who made the statement that at the moment there was no country giving extended benefit to unemployed people. That was a most extraordinary statement because extended benefit is at present being given to people in the Six Counties and in England. Then we had Deputy Joseph X. Murphy coming along with an old word which Deputy Good used to be so fond of but which he dropped afterwards—the dole. There is no dole and Deputies ought to realise that. At the present time unemployed workers only get out of the Unemployment Insurance Fund what they pay for, and if this House were to agree that unemployed workers should get extended insurance benefit what it would amount to is this: that they would be simply drawing upon their credit. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, in his speech last night used the phrase "intelligent anticipation of future production." I wonder if Deputy Good, in order to complete a big contract, had to get an overdraft from his bankers what he would say if I said that he was getting the dole. It is just the same case with the unemployed because when a man who is unemployed and who is forced to claim extended benefit gets employment he will have to repay whatever he gets. It is only those who believe that this country will never be able to absorb the unemployed who fling up their hands in despair at the idea of having to give extended benefit.

The Minister for Industry and Commerce did not speak until the fourth day of the debate was reached. I had hoped that we would have heard something from him as to what the Government were going to do for the unemployed. We heard from the President and other speakers what the Government had done, and we were told what could not be done, but none of them told us what would be done. Surely it is not suggested that the sum of £150,000 is going to give relief to the unemployed and to the distressed during this coming winter. Deputy O'Connell, as leader of the Labour Party, pointed out yesterday that a mere empty vote on this motion or this amendment at the end of a four or five days' debate was not going to be of any great satisfaction to us, and said, having initiated the debate and listened to the expressions of opinion which came from all parts of the House, that we believe it should not be allowed to pass with a mere vote: that there should be something concrete done. The Deputy made what I think was a very reasonable and a very constructive suggestion, and one that I think ought to commend itself to the House. His suggestion was that a Committee somewhat similar to the Reconstruction Committee that we had in 1923 should be set up to deal with the immediate question of unemployment, not the setting up of a Council such as that suggested by Deputy de Valera, which might be a body with such powers that the Government could simply shift responsibility from their own shoulders to that of the Council. The Council might go on for years hearing witnesses following on its terms of reference, but in the meantime the unemployed would be obliged to go on as they have been trying to go on for the last four or five years. Let us have a Committee genuinely desirous of dealing with this and composed of people who will lay down their minds to the task of bringing something concrete before the House to deal with the immediate problem of unemployment.

I thought that when Deputy O'Connell made that suggestion that the Minister for Industry and Commerce would have made some reference to it. He made none, not even a passing reference, and I suppose we can take it from that that the matter has been turned down by the Executive Council. That is the position so far as I see it. If this debate is going to end up by a purely empty vote, I agree with the President that then the time of the House has been wasted during the last four days. That is my opinion, if the net result of the debate is that we are only going to have a sum of £150,000 to put a bit in the mouths of an average of 60,000 people unemployed in this State. I take that figure as a medium between my own figure and the figure quoted by the Minister. I had hoped that we would have heard something from the Government on that matter. If the Government had shown that they had a genuine desire to try to get to grips with the unemployment problem, and had agreed to accept the suggestion put forward by Deputy O'Connell, then our point would have been met, and we would have been prepared to withdraw the motion. Seeing that they have not met us on that point, I am afraid that we have no option but to press the motion to a division.

The PRESIDENT

What is the nature of the Committee that the Deputy suggests?

Mr. O'CONNELL

The Committee I had in mind was a Committee constituted something on the lines of the Committee that met in 1923 and was called "The Committee on Reconstruction and Development," on which we had employers, labour and financial interests represented.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It did not represent labour and employers' interests. There was no special representation given to what one would call employers as opposed to employees. It was a Committee picked by the Government, I think.

Mr. O'CONNELL

I cannot say that there was special representation given, but naturally these are the interests that would be represented.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Reconstruction is a matter for the Government, and the Government is not going to allow reconstruction out of its hands, but Deputy Morrissey has spoken of a Committee mainly with regard to immediate relief schemes. Will the Deputy say the Committee which he is pressing for?

Mr. O'CONNELL

Pressing for both. In any suggestion I made with regard to the Committee, I did not intend that the Government for the time being should let the matter of reconstruction out of its hands. The Committee has to make representation to the Government and to this House.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

With regard to schemes for absorbing the unemployed?

Mr. O'CONNELL

Yes.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is a different matter from the futility of suggesting that a complete scheme of economics for this country should be set up outside this House.

Mr. MORRISSEY

What we are anxious for is to get a Committee that can meet and put up schemes to the Government which can be gone on with as soon as possible within the next few months. If that works satisfactorily there is no reason why that Committee should not meet.

Mr. O'HANLON

In the setting up of this Committee I do not think it should be overlooked that free traders and protectionists should get representation.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

If we are going to proceed to discuss the Committee on the basis of employers and employees we are bound to get the other side of things. Deputy O'Hanlon apparently will raise the question of free trade; others will raise the question of protection. I do not think that protection or free trade can come into the scope of this Committee which Deputy O'Connell's remarks envisaged.

Mr. O'HANLON

What about agriculture?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

The Committee I mean would deal with such matters as drainage, sewage, housing and roads. I do not believe that they could do anything with roads. That question has been completely and thoroughly investigated. There may be other things; the reclamation of land was mentioned. Certainly no such matter as free trade or protection would come before it. We have, we believe, already been dealing with that. We have a policy and we are not going to upset it. The thing I believe Deputy O'Connell wants to get after is a calculation of the number of unemployed, the finding out of what immediate relief can be given, and how relief can be given within the resources of the State.

Mr. O'CONNELL

It is not our intention that this Committee should deal with matters of policy. The idea has been already suggested by Deputy Morrissey. That is our idea. We can only make suggestions here. We cannot get down to details and find out whether a scheme would be profitable.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

"Remunerative" is the word.

Mr. O'CONNELL

That is the kind of work we would desire such a Committee to do. It should make recommendations which would have the effect of absorbing as many as possible of our unemployed. We are not concerned with the personnel so long as they produce the recommendations.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

That is all right.

The PRESIDENT

That is bearing in mind the policy running through the motion. If that is so, I have no objection.

Mr. CASSIDY

If a Committee such as is suggested is set up will an assurance be given to the House that it will not hold up the expenditure of the £150,000, but that, if necessary, a Supplementary Estimate will be introduced to meet any recommendations made by the Committee?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Any recommendation will be entirely apart from the road fund money in hands, or the £150,000 about to be voted.

Mr. MORRISSEY

I understand the President has agreed to set up a Committee such as we have suggested. Will the President say when that Committee will start to work? It is an important point. I know the President will want time to pick his men, but there should not be any undue delay.

The PRESIDENT

That is very short notice. On such short notice it is unlikely that I can set up this Committee, provide it with terms of reference, to produce something intelligible and practical and fulfil all the conditions. Assuming for the moment that we agree as to what its work is to be I should think I will be able to announce it within a week.

Mr. DAVIN

I understand the President accepts the principle of the suggestion made by Deputy O'Connell.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It is a Committee to consider what further steps can be taken with a view to the immediate relief of unemployment without putting an undue burden on the resources of the country.

The PRESIDENT

Resources of the country meaning industries of the country.

Mr. de VALERA

What is the composition to be? Is it a Select Committee of the House?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Not at all. If I am asked to give an opinion it should be a Committee from which almost necessarily members of the House should be excluded. Members of the House would afterwards have to debate the recommendations of that Committee.

Mr. de VALERA

Is it a Committee or a Commission?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It it a Committee, not of members of this House, set up to consider what further steps can be taken with a view to the immediate relief of unemployment without putting an undue burden on the resources of the country.

Mr. de VALERA

A Committee of what?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

A Committee of people.

Mr. ANTHONY

Am I to infer that this Committee will exclude members of this House?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I am putting that forward as a desirable suggestion.

Mr. MacENTEE

We know it is going to be a Committee of people, but people representing whom?

Mr. de VALERA

The human race.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Not necessarily that there should be agreed representation at all.

Mr. MacENTEE

What is the difference between the Committee which it is now proposed to set up and the Commission which was suggested by Deputy de Valera in his speech before "we of the Labour Party" took over that suggestion?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

All the difference in the world.

Mr. MacENTEE

We would want a lot of perceptive ability to recognise it.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

What is the position of the amendment and the motion?

Mr. MORRISSEY

In view of the undertaking which has been given by the Government in this matter, and in view of the fact that I believe this Committee will do much more for the unemployed than a mere empty vote on the question, I am prepared to withdraw the motion.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Is it desired to ask leave to withdraw the amendment?

The PRESIDENT

I ask leave to withdraw it. I may say that the statement Deputy Morrissey attributed to me in connection with the extension of employment benefit was not a statement made by me.

Mr. MORRISSEY

It must be some member of your Party.

Mr. de VALERA

I would like to ask a question in order to know something more about this. We believed at the very beginning that unless some such body as this, some body that would work out the whole problem, was set up, nothing was going to come out of this debate. We are glad from that point of view that some effort has been made. I only want to be clear as to the position of this Committee, if you give it that name, which is going to do the work after the talk is finished.

Mr. BRISCOE

Civil servants.

AN CEANN COMHAIRLE

Will not the names of the Committee and the terms of reference be communicated in some way to the Dáil?

Mr. McGILLIGAN

Yes. In case Deputy Morrissey may not want to withdraw his motion, I may mention that it is not going to be an economic council nor is it going to be a council of development.

Mr. MORRISSEY

The Minister can call it what he likes if it produces the work.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

It is going to be a committee established for the purpose of seeing what further steps can be taken for the immediate relief of unemployment. It has nothing to do with policy or economics.

Mr. T.J. O'CONNELL

It should not necessarily be confined to immediate relief.

Mr. CORISH

I hope it is clearly understood that the setting up of this committee will not interfere with the expenditure of the £150,000.

Mr. McGILLIGAN

I have said that.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.