asked the Minister for Local Government and Public Health if he will state on what grounds the order preventing Deputies from making personal representations to officers of his Department regarding old age pension claims has been made, and if he is prepared to withdraw the restriction.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Old Age Pension Claims.
An order has been made by me which precludes third parties to old age pension or blind pension appeals from making verbal representations to the officers of the Department whose duties are to decide appeals.
Facilities are provided in the Department for the reception of documents and of written representations from callers. It has been the experience of the Department that much time has been wasted by deciding officers in interviews which do not add to the material facts. It is necessary to deal with appeals as soon as possible after they have been received, as the number to be dealt with is about 10,000 per annum. It is essential also to avoid the danger of a presumption on the part of claimants that decisions have been, or can be, influenced either favourably or unfavourably by third parties through direct contact with deciding officers.
Mr. Murphy
Will the Minister say whether this decision is not entirely contrary to the practice in all Departments of the State at the moment? Does he consider whether the practice of members of this House going to any particular Department, and their rights to go to such Departments, is not entirely different from the third party influence he mentioned now; will he consider, further, whether this does not involve a greater danger of having a much less satisfactory examination of the cases than the procedure hitherto adopted? Does he realise that in the discussion of claims of this kind representations arising, and discussions taking place in the course of investigation of such cases, is a much more satisfactory way of arriving at a proper decision, than a bald submission of facts in writing as suggested by him; and finally, will the Minister arrange, if any inconvenience is caused to officers of his Department by the practice adopted heretofore, to have somebody appointed who will be in a position to receive verbal representations?
Does the Minister's ban, also, apply to telephone messages in regard to these representations?
Will the Minister take steps to supply the applicants, or representatives of theirs, with the case that was made against the old age pensioners by the pensions officer, because when these personal representations were allowed by third parties there was a chance of finding out what the case made against the applicants by the officer was.
Can the Minister give the House an assurance that as Deputy for North Dublin he never made representations on matters of this kind on behalf of any of his constituents?
That does not arise.
Is the Minister aware that if this cast iron regulation is enforced it will mean taking up a considerable amount of time in this House because if Deputies are not allowed to make personal representations to the Department on behalf of the old age pensioner they will require to raise the matter on motions for the adjournment of this House frequently.
First of all, on a personal point I may say that I never received a letter asking me to get an old age pension for anybody. I am in a happy position in that respect.
You are too well-known.
They found their way to 5 Parnell Square.
To deal with Deputy Murphy's point I am anxious to put this matter in the most satisfactory way. In order to have the work of pensions appeals properly administered. I would like to know of any other Department or section of a Department which is in the position of having an officer who has to decide old age pension claims. There is no question of denying Deputies or other persons the right to approach the Department in matters of this kind. Persons who want to come to the Department and make a statement will find an officer at their disposal who will take down their representations in shorthand if they consider it better to make statements by word of mouth rather than in written memoranda. There is no question of denying applications by word of mouth or of transferring that particular kind of appeal that can be transferred by an inflexion of the voice or anything else like that. I would like to know what information cannot be transferred in that particular way either by a written memorandum or a statement taken down from the party by a person and transferred to the deciding officer.
The Minister is asking a question instead of giving a reply. We cannot have a discussion at this stage.
Mr. Murphy
The Minister confesses himself totally ignorant of the procedure in connection with old age pensions by reason of the fact that he has no acquaintance with old age pension claims. I put it to the Minister that approaching the officer in his Department with the file before him and having the facts of the whole case examined by the officer and the Deputy is the most satisfactory way of examining the matter, and that that cannot be done except the officer whom he proposes to apportion this work to has all the facts before him and is able to discuss them.
Can we have an undertaking that this is not going to be extended to other Departments or even to other branches of the Minister's Department?
There is very definite machinery set up for dealing with applications for old age pensions and the examination of these applications and appeals. I know no part of that machinery which says that Deputies shall have access to the files for the purpose of seeing what exactly the position is. There are committees dealing with these matters and there are pensions officers and inspectors under the Local Government Department who go down locally and examine special cases and in addition there are the deciding officers. They have the pensions officers, the committees, the pensioners themselves, the inspectors of the Local Government Department to mobilise all the facts in connection with the matter.
I am not concerned with the difficulties that Deputies have in the matter of applications for old age pensions—I am concerned with the proper discharge of the duty of deciding pension appeals—and I submit to Deputies that the arrangements that have been made are adequate for their purpose, and that it is undesirable that Deputies or others should have personal approach to the deciding officers when they have other means of an unlimited kind of communicating facts upon which decisions have to be taken.
Mr. Murphy
I realise the difficulty of continuing by way of question and answer, and I give notice that I will raise the matter on the adjournment this evening.