Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 13 Mar 1930

Vol. 33 No. 14

Private Deputies' Business. - Adjournment Debate—Searches of Irish Labour Defence League Offices.

Mr. Cooney

I addressed a Question to-day to the Minister for Justice asking him

If he is aware that on some ten occasions recently the offices of the Irish Labour Defence League, situated in the Engineers' Hall, 6 Gardiner's Row, Dublin, have been raided, under the Firearms Act, by detective officers of the Gárda Síochána; that this organisation has as its object the raising of funds to provide legal assistance to working men and women who may be charged, or even arrested without charge, during the course of economic struggles to prevent wages being lowered, or other such objects; that the organisation also undertakes the succour of the innocent dependents of such workers; and if he will state whether in any one of these raids there has been found any sign of firearms of any description, and whether he will undertake to instruct his Department to put an end to this activity on the part of the detective officers.

The Minister replied:

The offices in question have been frequented by a group of persons who are known to be active members of an organisation which has for its object the overthrow, by armed force, of the existing State. So long as these people continue to frequent the premises, the premises will be searched for firearms at frequent intervals.

I wish to inform the Minister that the Irish Labour Defence League, as stated in the Question, has rented offices at No. 6, Gardiner's Row. As to who occupies other offices in these premises I am not in a position to state. The question dealt specifically with the offices rented and occupied by the Irish Labour Defence League, and for the information of the Minister and those concerned, I will state the aims and objects of the organisation. The Irish Labour Defence League's aims and objects are set out in its constitution, a printed copy of which I can supply to the Minister if he desires. I will read some of its aims and objects.

The Irish Labour Defence League is a non-party organisation, serving exclusively the interests of the workers and oppressed peoples in their struggle against the Imperialist régime. The Irish Labour Defence League takes upon itself the following obligations:—

(1) To initiate and centralise campaigns for the release of all Political and Class War prisoners, the repeal of anti-labour laws, against anti-labour legislation, against persecution of Unions and strikers, for freedom of speech and assembly, the right of asylum, and to publicly expose the brutal treatment of Political and Class War Prisoners.

(2) To provide legal defence for all who are persecuted for anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist activities.

(3) To provide material and moral support for Political and Class War Prisoners, as defined in paragraph (a), and support for their families and dependents.

(4) To organise widespread campaigns against persecution in this and other capitalist, colonial and semi-colonial countries, and to give moral and financial aid wherever possible to the victims of such persecution.

(5) To publish Press information, pamphlets, etc., dealing with the above customs.

Article Three—Organisational Principles.

The fundamental principles of the Irish Labour Defence League are:—

(1) The election of all official committees of the organisation (national, district and local) by meetings of the members, conferences and congresses.

I desire to ask the Minister if, in his opinion, the objects which I have read out are in any way contrary to or inimical to the interests of the State. If so, some justification may be found for the activities of the C.I.D. in raiding these offices at frequent intervals. But I submit that this organisation is an open organisation, composed of working men and women operating in the interests of the working classes in this country. I also want to ask the Minister is it his policy, or the policy of his Department, to initiate a campaign of tyranny and victimisation against those who are prominent in the Irish Labour movement, because they may not have as yet given faith of their loyalty to the political régime in this country. I submit that there cannot possibly be any other excuse, or any other cause put forward for this reign of tyranny which has been carried on for some time past, particularly against this organisation. This organisation represents the vanguard of Irish Labour, and I think it is time we had a declaration from the Minister as to whether he is including in the category of criminals those who stand for the principles of Irish Labour. The Minister was told on a previous occasion that it is only reasonable to assume that he is a mere cipher in this matter, that he is placed here as Minister for Justice nominally, but that in reality he has no more to say in the conduct of his Department than I have, who, fortunately, am not associated in any way with any department of State as at present constituted. Is it a fact that there is behind the Minister an ex-British official, an ex-British civil servant who might be termed a key man in the Department of Justice?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

On a point of order. Can attacks be made on civil servants in this House?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, certainly not. The Deputy was told that before. The Minister is responsible here.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I am entirely responsible and I take full responsibility.

Mr. Cooney

The Minister is responsible here.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, and no one else is responsible, and no one else is in a position to answer here, as the Deputy will realise.

Mr. Cooney

I am very glad that the Minister accepts full responsibility for the activities of his Department.

Mr. Fitzgerald - Kenney

Full, absolute, complete and entire, and the Deputy may add any other adjectives he wishes to make that stronger, if possible.

Mr. S. Jordan

Not here.

Mr. Cooney

I was simply expressing the views and opinions formed by some people inside and outside this House, that there is an evil genius behind the scenes.

Mr. Reynolds

He must be a Russian.

Mr. Cooney

We have yet to learn whether he is the evil genius or not. We heard a lot about tyranny in that and in other countries, but these are far away. We are dealing now with the question which affects the home position, and I want the Minister for a few moments to depart from his parrot-like reply formula, and tell us exactly what his Department really aims at in their operations against this particular organisation. As I said, these offices are rented and occupied by a particular organisation whose aims and objects I have read out, the membership of which can be vouched for as being composed of Irish workers, men and women. Their political beliefs do not enter into the question at all. They meet there as Irish workers to deal with questions affecting Irish workers, and questions of political propaganda in any shape or form, I am reliably informed, are not dealt with, except in so far as they affect membership of this organisation as workers.

Of course, the Irish Labour movement is to a great extent political. Political questions of a certain nature must of necessity arise, but there are no underhand methods, no secret meetings, no oaths being administered, no arms being carried by the members there. They are meeting there as members of an open organisation and they have declared their aims and objects here, publicly in a written constitution. Will the Minister say that this constitution is illegal? If so, as I have said, we will know where we stand, but otherwise I think it is up to him to withdraw his C.I.D. forces from operating in this manner. One of the consequences of these frequent raids has been that young men, ardent enthusiastic members of this organisation who are employed in certain firms in the city, have been arrested, taken to the Bridewell and kept there for hours, sometimes over-night without any charge being preferred against them. They have been unable to turn into work at the hour specified by their employers on the following morning. As a result some of them have lost their employment and are now walking the streets. Is that the policy of the Minister's Department? Is it his desire to drive these people out of the country because they are known to be prominent in the Irish Labour movement?

He has told us that the premises are frequented by persons who are known to be members of an organisation which has, as its object, the overthrow, by armed force, of the existing State. On a question raised here, I think, yesterday afternoon, the Minister was pressed to explain why, if he knew of certain individuals or his Department knew of certain individuals who were known to be actively engaged in such a conspiracy he does not have those persons arrested and tried by the ordinary court methods which he is so ready to recommend to us when we raise questions here of grievances of certain people. He tells us that they should try the ordinary court methods. Why does he not try the ordinary court methods in respect of those persons who are known to be actively engaged in an effort to overthrow this State by force of arms? Why are those people allowed to frequent these premises night after night? I submit it is mere eye wash. It has gone on so long and we have heard the same answer so often to questions dealing with this matter that no one in his senses will seriously consider for a moment that the Minister is in any way addressing himself to the real question.

There is something sinister behind it all, and I want to warn the Minister that he is flirting with a serious situation if he allows this conduct to continue. He has said here to-night that he is responsible for the activities of all those who are operating under his Department.

Mr. Fitzgerald - Kenney

Absolutely.

Mr. Cooney

Absolutely. I want to ask him to beware of the consequences which must inevitably follow a continuation of this policy of repression of people who are claiming nothing more or less than the rights of ordinary citizens, the rights which are laid down and guaranteed in the Constitution which the Minister claims to be the guardian and custodian of, the right of free speech and the right of assembly. Does the Minister deny that Irish workers have those rights? Those are all we ask for them. Out of those ten raids I submit that not one scintilla of evidence has been found in support of the contention that this organisation is composed of people who are actively engaged in any conspiracy other than the open conspiracy as laid down in their constitution. If that is a conspiracy I congratulate them, and hope that they will continue to conspire and further the aims and objects of that organisation as laid down in the constitution. In this I am giving the Minister fifty-fifty, so he will get fifteen minutes to reply.

Mr. Esmonde

I would ask the Deputy would he give an assurance to the House that the members of the society which he is defending to-night do not belong to any secret society that is plotting against the authority of this House? Has the Deputy any information that they do not belong to any secret society?

Mr. Cooney

Can the Deputy tell me how many members of this House are not actively engaged as members of the Masonic organisation in opposition to the ideals for which this House is standing?

Mr. Esmonde

The Deputy is not prepared to give the undertaking I have asked for.

Mr. Cooney

I have stated the aim and object of this organisation.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Deputy has read for us a printed pamphlet setting out the aims and objects of this association. The Deputy has not, however, as has just been pointed out by Deputy Esmonde, told us anything about the leaders and the rank and file of this particular organisation, and the Deputy has not told us that the members of this organisation are not the members of any other organisation and that the persons who frequent this building belong to this organisation and to nothing else. In fact, they do not. Many, I do not say all, of the persons who frequent this building are engaged in a conspiracy for the overthrow of this State by force of arms.

Mr. Cooney

Why are they not charged?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

The Deputy has asked, and I was asked last night in a similiar fashion by Deputy Hogan, why are prosecutions not brought? I was anxious to answer Deputy Hogan then but I expected the matter would come up on the adjournment. I am glad that same question has been put to me now. These men are engaged in a conspiracy to overthrow the State. In order that you should those men of being engaged in that conspiracy it is necessary to get a conviction in law. It is necessary that they should have done certain overt acts in the pursuance of their conspiracy. The attitude I have taken up, and I impress upon the Deputy that it is my attitude, and which I purpose adhering to is this: to see that members of that conspiracy shall not be allowed to commit overt acts of violence. I have stated in this House before and I state it to this House again to-night that in my opinion the primary duty of the Guards and the Government is to see that acts of violence are not committed. Our duty is not merely to convict persons who have committed offences. We know that there are persons who have banded themselves together. The Deputy knows it. Everybody in the country knows it. Everyone knows that there is an association calling themselves the I.R.A. which is pledged to overthrow this existing Constitution and State by force of arms. There is nobody so ignorant in the country who does not know that.

Are those persons to be allowed to commit open acts of violence before they are prosecuted? That is really what Deputy Hogan and Deputy Cooney ask. Let those people commit acts of violence and then prosecute them. When someone has been murdered then track down the criminal. My answer to that is this: that we are going to see that the rights and the property of citizens in this State are preserved.

Mr. Hogan (Clare):

May I point out to the Minister that he is presuming to reply to me without having heard my case?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I was replying to a question which I had not an opportunity to answer, but Deputy Hogan and I will discuss that matter again. I will leave out Deputy Hogan and confine myself to Deputy Cooney, who has put his case. Does Deputy Cooney then think that the proper course to be adopted is this: that open acts of violence are to be committed and then only are the Guards to come in, or is it their duty to see that no body in this country who is not by law entitled to carry arms shall carry arms? What do those people want to carry arms for except to commit crimes of violence? He says that no arms have been found in this particular building. Granted, but we know that a very large number of the members of that association are members of that body calling itself the I.R.A.

Mr. Cooney

Might I interrupt the Minister for one moment? These very same people may or may not be members of this organisation. They may also be members of various confraternities and Church organisations. Does the Minister believe that when they attend religious services on Sunday that those religious services should be raided by his forces because these people attend there?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I think it highly improbable that anybody is going to dump arms inside a church, but if it came to my knowledge that arms were in fact dumped at night inside a church most certainly that church would be searched. Any place where arms are dumped will be searched. Here is a place frequented almost nightly by those persons who have sworn themselves, as the Deputy and everybody else in the House knows, into an organisation to upset this State by force. Where is it more likely that those persons will deposit their arms than in this particular building that they have free access to?

Mr. Cooney

Has the Minister proof that those people to whom he refers frequent the offices which are dealt with in the Question?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Yes, they are members of that organisation.

Mr. Cooney

If the members of his forces know all these people in these offices have they got any evidence that they are there operating on behalf of this conspiracy to which he refers?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Yes. Does the Deputy know the names of the committee of this body?

Mr. Cooney

Yes.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Does the Deputy know that certain members of that committee have already been in prison?

Mr. Cooney

On what charge?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Possession of arms, sedition, or things of that kind.

Mr. Cooney

Who are those people?

An Ceann Comhairle

I would rather have debate than cross-examination.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

Let me say Mr. MacBride for one.

Mr. Cooney

What is the charge?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

He is one; there are others who are members of this association, and it is because this association has these persons in it that the association rooms are being searched. I do not know whether the Deputy is a member of this association or not himself. I do not know, but if he has any influence with this association, and if this association is the quiet, peaceable body he makes it out to be let them show it. Let them drum out the gunmen. Let them say that anybody who is going to use physical violence against this State must cease to be a member of that association. Let them show that they are genuine in that. The Deputy may have a case if that were done, that it was wrong and improper to search their premises, but as long as they welcome to their ranks and put on their committees persons who, we know, are engaged in endeavouring by force to upset this State, so long must they take the punishment which follows from associating with persons of that class on friendly terms, and making persons of that class their friends, associates and fellow-members. They cannot have it both ways. The Deputy wants us to believe that this is a perfectly peaceable organisation that will never resort to violence or force. Then why does he not put the persons who openly preach force out of it?

Mr. Cooney

Are they preaching force in that organisation?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I do not know what happens inside the walls of that particular room, but the room is frequented by persons who do preach the doctrine of physical force, and the real question at issue here is: is that the sort of place in which the Guards will find arms?

Mr. Cooney

Does the Minister suggest that an open, constitutional organisation like this should examine the bona fides of every applicant for membership to this particular organisation, which lays it down in its constitution that it is open to any member of the Irish working classes, irrespective of his or her political views? Is it possible or reasonable that the Minister should recommend or suggest that the responsible officers of this organisation should examine the political views and aspirations of every applicant for membership? Is that a reasonable suggestion to put up?

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

I do not know that Mr. MacBride, Mr. Coulter or Mr. Price are what one would ordinarily call working men. I should not have thought so at all. I would not have thought that a journalist, the editor of a certain paper, is what one would usually call a working man.

Mr. Cooney

As members of that organisation.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

As members of that organisation they become working men! You need not be a working man to join the organisation, but as soon as you join the organisation, by joining you become a working man! My idea is that a working man is a man who works. I am sorry that I cannot pursue this interesting dialogue any further. I would like to congratulate the Deputy upon his courage. On the last night that we had a debate here on the adjournment, the Deputy, who raised a question as soon as he had made his speech, put his tail between his legs and scurried out of the House as quickly as he could. I am glad to say that I see in Deputy Cooney a great deal more courage than I saw in the other Deputy. Evidently the North has more backbone than certain persons who come from Cork.

Mr. Esmonde

I would like to ask the Minister, in view of the fact that this type of question is brought up on the adjournment many times in the course of the year, and in view of this long-drawn-out campaign would the Minister seriously consider the question of taking powers to exclude or banish, for perhaps a few years, from our State those few young gentlemen who are wasting our time and the time of the House by their operations?

Mr. Cooney

By aeroplane.

Mr. Fitzgerald-Kenney

If you took away the major occupation of the Opposition it would be rather unfair.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m., until 10.30 a.m. on Friday.