Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Feb 1931

Vol. 37 No. 6

Vote 54—Fisheries and Gaeltacht Services.

Mr. Lynch

I move:

"Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £11,450 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1931, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tailte agus Iascaigh agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riara na hOifige sin, maraon le hIldeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £11,450 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1931, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Lands and Fisheries, and of certain Services administered by that Office, including Sundry Grants-in-Aid."

The form of this Estimate makes it somewhat difficult to follow. The Vote is for a net sum of £11,450. The first item is for a sum of £3,300, a grant-in-aid for the new Sea Fisheries Association to put it at once in funds. This grant relates to the period up to the 31st March next only. The Association was registered on the 20th November, 1930, and it has already begun to function. Particulars of the sum of £3,300 will be found in page 2 of the Estimate. The first item is £1,800 for the expenses of the formation and administration of the Association, including the salaries of the manager, secretary and other staff, the cost of premises, stationary, printing, and so on. The directors themselves are acting voluntarily, and no expense will be incurred in that way, except mere out-of-pocket expenses of those who have to come from a distance to attend meetings of the directors.

The second item is a sum of £1,000 for allowances for boats and gear, and the third an item of £500 for development. The directors have already made a survey of all branches of the industry. because, as Deputies who are interested will know, sea fisheries comprise, in fact, about half a dozen entirely different industries, and they have begun to move in more than one direction. As to the manner in which they propose to deal with different aspects of the industry, I will be in a better position to go into that on presenting the Estimates for the Department for the coming year. There remains, in addition to this sea fisheries grant-in-aid, a sum of £8,150. Of this about £4,000 is required in connection with cottage industries and the other £4,000 in connection with the sub-heads relating to kelp and carrigeen moss. The sum required in connection with the cottage industries represents the expenses of accumulating at the central depot in Beggar's Bush a number of pieces of hand-woven tweed so as to enable prompt and regular supplies to be made to the trade. Deputies are probably aware that a certain number of travellers have been appointed by the Department. These carry patterns of all the materials which are stocked, and it is necessary to keep in stock at least one piece of each pattern. In fact, there is at the moment at the central depot a stock of tweeds of the value of about £6,000.

Apart from this consideration, the expansion of the industry has been somewhat slower than was anticipated when the original Estimate was introduced 18 months ago. In the tweeds, for instance, weavers came in at the outset more slowly than was anticipated. I am glad to say they are now coming in greater numbers. Six months ago there were only about 20 weavers, whereas at the moment we have 70 weavers working and in training. There are four training centres in Donegal and another one is to be opened. There is a centre also at Carrowroe in Connemara, one at Ballydavid in Kerry, and one is about to be opened at Tourmakeady in Co. Mayo. In machine-knitting the difficulties of organisation have been greater than was anticipated. It has been found necessary to bring up nearly all the manageresses of these industries to Dublin for a course of instruction. It is desired to bring the standard of workmanship up to a certain high level which will enable the products to be given the trade mark of the depôt. This reorganisation and the taking away of the instructresses has limited the output for the time being. The abandonment of the old standards and the realisation of the new has not been a very easy task. We have achieved a new standard in a good proportion of the materials and garments turned out, and hope soon to realise it in the case of the others.

The original Estimate for kelp and carrigeen was a token vote of £10 for the purpose of obtaining the approval of the House for certain steps which it was proposed to take. In the case of carrigeen the sum required is £300. This represents portion of the sums paid for the gathering and grading of about ten tons of carrigeen which have been specially cured and graded and which are now in hand for the purpose of sale in packets as food. That was specially good carrigeen. Most of the carrigeen moss was sold for industrial purposes. It was sold for something like £16 per ton, as against the £8 per ton that was generally paid formerly. The carrigeen that is in hand will, it is estimated, fill about 100,000 boxes. It is hoped to have it on the market during the middle of next month. The receipts from it will not appear in this financial year.

In the case of kelp there are certain lots around on isolated portions of the coast which have been bought and paid for, but which are not being collected because of the difficulties of shipment. These will be gathered with the coming season's weed and shipped with it. The total amount is about 200 tons, and the value about £1,200. In connection with the operations of last season it was necessary to buy weighing machines, 25,000 boxes, metal labels, chemical outfits, and other stores, costing about £1,700. It would not be fair to charge this against one season's operations. It represents capital expenditure on equipment which will last over a number of years. There was a loss on the operations last season due to several causes. For instance, there were cases of kelp which for various reasons was of very poor quality. During the war the kelp was bought principally for its potash content rather than its iodine content. Some of that weed is of very poor quality from the point of view of iodine content.

This year the persons accustomed to gathering that weed in the past acted in good faith and gathered it thinking that it had the value now that it formerly had. We intend to stop the use of that weed altogether. In other cases the weed was not stacked and saved in the best manner or was not burned in the best way. We had to decide whether we were going to refuse to take this kelp, or whether we were going to pay a very small price for it. We decided, especially in the cases which I have been speaking of, where the kelp was gathered from the wrong weed, that as those who had gathered it acted in good faith we would pay them roughly £4 or £5 a ton for the kelp. In most cases the price paid was £4 a ton. In some instances this kelp that I am speaking of was taken elsewhere and purchased at very good prices, indeed at prices very much beyond its actual value. The state of things that prevailed last year for the first time in the history of the industry produced a very abnormal condition that I should say is unlikely to recur. The better the kelp and the higher the prices the Department was able to pay, the more satisfactory was the financial result.

Tory Island was the brightest spot in the whole business. This is a place where the kelp produced in the past has been of rather poor quality, but the kelp makers there paid the closest attention to the advice given to them by the Department. For this result I think a great deal of credit is due to the priest who was stationed there at the time, Father Gallagher. The average price paid for the kelp on the Island was £9 16s. 10d. a ton. The highest price paid was £14 a ton. From the point of view of the kelp-makers and of the Department the transactions carried out there were very satisfactory indeed. I do not wish the figures I have given to be taken as anything like the average price that one might expect in the future, because the kelp on Tory Island was made from the sea rods gathered during the winter. These made kelp of the highest quality.

There was no May weed washed up in Tory last season owing to the absence of storms. As Deputies will remember, last May was probably one of the finest months we had during the year. From the point of view of the kelp gatherer, storms in May are welcome. But last year we had storms and a lot of bad weather in August and September—at a wrong time from the point of view of the kelp gatherer.

Six Irish-speaking instructors, who are practical kelp makers, have been appointed. These instructors are working under an Irish-speaking organiser. At the moment they are taking a laboratory course as well as practical instruction. The position, therefore, is that next year every place around the coast will have an opportunity of conducting kelp-gathering and burning on the lines carried out in Tory last season. There are other reasons why the expenses last year were larger than will normally be the case. One is that it was rather late in the year when we decided to go on with the undertaking. The question was whether we should go on with it last year or wait and make all the necessary preparations by way of providing stores and so on; that is to say, to postpone the thing for a year in order that proper preparations might be made, or to tackle the thing last year and see what could possibly be done in the absence of these facilities.

For instance, we purchased weighing machines and got chemists. At any rate we decided to go on last year, and that is the reason why the cost is a bit heavier. We decided that whatever disadvantages there might be in proceeding without the very best facilities at every point that that would be outweighed by the experience gained in tackling the problem. The bad weather also involved us in additional cost by way of shipment. It was a long time before we were enabled to charter a Saorstát boat at any reasonable freight. Eventually we had to go to the Clyde for a steamer, and in the case of certain small consignments we were forced to use a couple of the Department's motor boats which were not engaged in fishing at the time. These boats were not entirely adapted for this particular job, and at any rate that is not an economic way of shipping the weed. In future seasons there will be more time to make arrangements in regard to all these matters. In some places, owing to the absence of storage, we had to stack the kelp and cover it with tarpaulin pending shipment. That does not help to improve the quality of the kelp. In future we hope to be able to make more satisfactory arrangements for storage.

Taking the result of last season as a whole, and the information which I have with regard to the kelp handled by the Department, and other information that I have in regard to kelp sold elsewhere, it is estimated that the total output was increased by about 40 per cent., while the total sum received by the kelp-makers was increased by about 80 per cent., or an additional sum between £12,000 and £13,000. In the figures which formed the basis of the total estimate I had budgeted for a much larger increase in the total output. I expected to have an output of 5,000 tons. The actual output, due to the fact that the May weed was not washed up, was 3,500 tons. That was about 40 per cent. of an increase on the previous year.

Moreover, I budgeted on the fact that the whole of the kelp output would be handled by the Department. That did not turn out to be the case. Some buyers did not see fit to make purchases through the Department, but preferred to buy direct from the kelp-makers. I am glad to say, however, that the prices which they paid were in most cases much in excess of the prices they paid in former years. The proportion of the total amount of kelp handled by the Department was, I think, something over two-thirds of the whole output. I would like to make it clear that the Department is not a buyer of kelp. The Department is merely acting as agent for the kelp-makers. There is no question, therefore, of substituting a new monopoly for a monopoly that formerly existed. The Department wishes to encourage every buyer who is willing to pay a fair price. All the former buyers were invited to meet us last year, to discuss the future arrangements in the interests of everyone concerned. One of the principal buyers did so, and we entered into mutually satisfactory arrangements, which resulted in his making a larger purchase of kelp than in the previous year. The other buyers did not come into the scheme.

The object of the whole scheme is to ensure a fair price and a market to absorb a much greater output of kelp. It will be remembered that these were the great difficulties of kelp makers in former years. They never knew if they would get purchasers. The matter was carefully considered, and the conclusion we came to was that there was only one way in which it could be satisfactorily dealt with. It is the way we have adopted. I think it is one to which the House has given its full support. It has been suggested that people are being put out of business owing to the action of the Department. So far as this country is concerned people are not being put out of business but they are actually being put into business by the Department. More kelp makers are coming in. We have one iodine factory established in Galway, and there is no reason why anyone should go out of business. Anyone who wishes to buy kelp we shall be glad to receive, and we have no doubt that the results will be as satisfactory to the buyers as to the kelp burners. The only interest we wish to serve is the interest of the kelp makers.

A good deal of research is proceeding in the Galway iodine factory which, I anticipate, will result in further improvements in the quality of the kelp. There is research in the way of a better method of burning and in the general handling of the weed. Some of the results already obtained are of a striking nature, and if they work out in actual commercial practice as they have done in the laboratory one may expect very great things indeed from the industry.

Mr. Derrig

I would like to ask the Minister whether he can explain the anticipated savings on other sub-heads, amounting to £27,725.

Mr. Lynch

Less purchases. We bought less than we anticipated.

Mr. Derrig

What does it say on other sub-heads? The Minister has failed to explain the anticipated savings on other sub-heads of £27,725. The position is that last year a Supplementary Estimate was introduced amounting to something like £44,000, and we were told that that amount would not, in fact, represent a loss, because it would simply mean that it represented the purchase of kelp; that the kelp would be sold, that the net loss to the State would be nominal, and would, in fact, only amount to £10. The kelp scheme was to have been run on a self-supporting basis. The Minister stated that in the preceding year 3,000 tons of kelp were collected but that under the scheme last year 5,000 tons were to be collected. I do not know whether the 5,000 tons were collected or not. It seems to me that if the scheme had improved in the way anticipated there should not have been any loss. Whether the scheme has improved or not as regards the total output, or the total amount of kelp collected, the fact remains that something has gone radically wrong with the finances of it.

The Minister definitely stated that the kelp was gathered largely in May. If that is so, the kelp should be saved and sold by this time. The fact that there is £1,200 worth on hands should not mean a deficit because the amount sold should have been sufficient to right matters. In fact, we have only £1,200 worth of kelp on hands, so that the amount in hands is not going to help us to square accounts. I am not clear at all as to how the deficit of £37,750 has arisen. The trouble in this matter is that Deputies on this side of the House are absolutely out of touch with the details of the scheme. We know that the scheme has been going on. We had to take the Minister's word for granted that the scheme was going to pay for itself, and that there would be no loss. The Minister has come along now and has, I submit, given no explanation whatever for the deficit of £37,750 nor has he explained how, under this financial adjustment, the £37,750 is reduced by the anticipated savings to £11,450. We are quite at sea as to the financial details of the kelp scheme. We do not know exactly what has taken place. We do not know what is the position of the persons in charge of the kelp scheme. Is the whole thing from start to finish a State enterprise, or what is the position of those private individuals who have a commercial interest in the scheme?

The Department is certainly to be congratulated on having made a serious effort to put this important industry, which concerns the lives of the poorest and the most Irish-speaking people in the Free State, on a proper basis. But I submit that the House is entitled to more information than the Minister has given as to why things have gone awry in this manner. The fact is that the explanations about the poor quality of the kelp and the proper type of weed not having been utilised and the fact that the Department did not want to let the kelp gatherers down—they bought this kelp from them even though they knew it was not proper stuff and knew that thereby the State was incurring a bigger loss—these explanations cannot be considered satisfactory although the thing is largely in an experimental condition. Nevertheless, when we have the Department of Fisheries blazoning it forth as a wonderfully constructive scheme for the Gaeltacht areas I think they should be able to show, if not a profit, at least some real effort to make the thing self-supporting in the earlier stages. I am not at all satisfied with the explanation. It seems to me that there has been bad management somewhere, and Deputies from the areas concerned will have something to say as to the manner in which this money has been expended. We are all prepared to spend a certain amount of money in the Gaeltacht areas from which there will not be an immediate return if the object of putting an industry such as this on its feet is going to be secured, but what I am afraid is that in these particular circumstances there has been so much bungling in the beginning and bad handling of the whole situation that the State is in for heavy losses.

Before the Minister asks the Dáil to pass the Supplementary Estimate I would urge him now, before the discussion goes any further, to let us have more details as to how exactly this scheme worked out during the past year, exactly how many tons were collected, and exactly what the losses were. I cannot reconcile his figure of £4,000 for kelp and carrigeen with the £37,750 I see here in front of me. With regard to the carrigeen, we are in the same position. The Minister says a big price has been paid, and if in the long run the product now being marketed by the Department is going to bring in an amount which will cover the expenses we shall all be very glad. I am afraid there will not be much possibility, even anticipating that the whole of the 100,000 boxes will be sold, that there will be any great profit for the State in the long run. The Minister can boast that he has put a certain amount of money into certain areas in the country. We all agree that that is a necessary and a good thing, but members of all Parties will look at this from the financial point of view, and they will really want more information as to the exact way in which this business is being carried out and as to the possibilities of its being run at a profit on some future occasion or not. If there is no possibility of the carrigeen moss and the kelp industry being run at a profit as was anticipated, and if the State is going to have to foot the bill as it has to do in this case, the sooner the Minister gets away from his generalities and makes that clear to the House the better. I am convinced, however, that a much better effort could have been made to organise this industry properly. I am not satisfied with the means taken to instruct kelp-gatherers in the proper saving of the weed. I think, if necessary, the Frenchmen who are in this iodine business could have been brought across if suitable persons were not available in this country, as well as insisting that our instructors shall be as far as possible Irish-speaking. Of course we must not be driven into the situation that we are going to pay instructors to come out just because they are Irish teachers to teach the saving of this weed which they do not understand themselves. The whole question of the appointment of these instructors is one about which we have heard complaints, and we would like the Minister to assure the House that men are not going to be appointed as instructors until he is satisfied they have not alone the ordinary knowledge which a worker in the industry would have, but have some practical knowledge besides, and that some effort is being made by the Department to give them some technical training.

The position of the other rural industries is one I would like the Minister to explain to us. In the Gaeltacht areas, it seems to me, there has been a considerable falling off in the amount of money spent in wages in the rural industries, and now that we have established a central depot for these rural industries I think that the Department should have tried to keep all the persons who were being employed and to continue them in employment irrespective of any changes that were being made in design, and so on. I feel confident that these girls who were working in these industries, and have been working in them for a good number of years, are quite capable of responding to any changes in fashion, and so on, that may be necessary, that they have the aptitude to make themselves suitable to these changes. I am rather surprised that in some of the areas large numbers of the girls have only a few hours' work in the week and were only able to draw a few shillings a week in wages. The result is that every effort is being made by these people to get out of the country. The fact that they cannot get out of the country now may be of some consolation to the Minister, but I submit more might have been done to keep them in constant employment.

The position of the Sea Fisheries Association, which I think the Minister referred to, is one that is also causing some anxiety. We have not seen any effort on the part of this Board to start operations, and I would impress on the Minister the necessity of the Board going to work as soon as possible. When we on this side of the House welcomed the appointment of members of that Board as men who had practical acquaintance with the fishing industry and who were familiar with the conditions throughout the country, we expected that these men when the responsibility was placed upon them would set to work in earnest and try and get a scheme going with the least possible delay. So far there is nothing to show.

In the matter of the housing grants there are some areas in the Gaeltacht which have not yet been visited by the Minister's inspectors, and it is a rather extraordinary thing after the way in which the Housing (Gaeltacht) Bill was rushed through the House with the cooperation of all Parties, and the amount of money that was provided for those grants, and the £5,000 that was provided for extra officials that, twelve months or more after the passing of the Act, no effort has been made to visit some of the areas let alone to give the grants, although in some of the areas I have visited the people have got their sand and stones together and, I was told, had actually remained at home from Scotland expecting that the grant would be forthcoming and that they would be able to start to build last autumn. The Minister has a lot of responsibility on his hands, I know, but in the matter of houses I think more expedition could have been expected. The Land Commission have had housing schemes and grants in operation for a considerable time. They are well acquainted with the details of the work, and there is no excuse whatever for not expending the money granted by the Dáil within the time allotted.

Dr. Tubridy

I see here under the heading I., Appropriations in-Aid, that the deficiency in the receipts from the sale of kelp and the deficiency in the sale of products of rural industries classes are all bulked together, amounting to a sum of £36,175. As far as I remember, in the Estimate for the year the appropriation-in-aid of rural industries accounted for £15,850, which included repayment of industrial loans, so that I must take it then that the difference between the £13,000 and the £36,175 is due to a loss on the kelp and carrigeen services. I do not think it was fair in this case to bulk the two together. We should have been told exactly the deficiency in the kelp and carrigeen services. I take it it is the difference between what was originally in the Estimates under the appropriations-in-aid, estimated at £13,000, and the £36,000 stated in this new Estimate. I have a suspicion in my mind that there has been even greater losses in the kelp industry, because in reply to a supplementary question that I asked to-day the Minister for Finance told me that the Minister for Fisheries was granted a certain sum out of the unemployment grant. What sum it amounted to I cannot say. Perhaps the Minister would tell us, when replying, what amount of money under the unemployment grant was handed to his Department, apart from the Land Commission grant, for expenditure in the kelp, and on what schemes it was spent?

There are a number of gangs employed in the West of Ireland collecting sea rods and building walls for the drying of the sea rods in the kelp industry at present. They are paid directly. I do not know whether this expenditure is coming under this heading here in the Vote for the Department of Fisheries and the kelp services or whether it is portion of the unemployment grant that is also being used for this purpose by the Minister. If the gangs at present employed in the West of Ireland in the kelp industry are being paid out of the unemployment fund, then the loss in the kelp business is much greater than what has been stated here.

I think also that the Minister should have given us some information about the iodine factory in Galway. I know that the Minister may say that the factory is a private enterprise and that he has nothing to do with the running of it or with the losses or gains that accrue. At the same time, seeing that we in this House are assisting the kelp industry, and that the factory is set up as a result of the assistance given to the kelp industry, and that certain pressure has been brought to bear on the people of Donegal and of the Arran Islands to sell their kelp to the Ministry and that that kelp is only being sold to this iodine factory, we should be given some information as to the manner in which the factory is being run, how many people are being employed in it, whether it is at present running at a loss, or whether it is likely to last. I hope the Minister will let us know exactly what is the loss on the kelp, as apart from the rural industries, and that he will also tell me whether the unemployment grant is being used for that purpose, and he might give us some information about the factory.

I have very grave complaints to make as to the administration of the Department and the spending of this money on the kelp business. I have very serious complaints to make against the Minister, who is, in fact, the Minister for the Gaeltacht. He is supposed on all occasions to assist the Irish speakers and to see that the Gaelicising of the areas around the Gaeltacht is carried on and that no harm is done to the language in the fíor-Gaeltacht. I think that the Minister has shown considerable neglect in the administration of this money. I have always had occasion to complain about the administration of this Department. I know that the Minister cannot keep in touch with everything, and I know that perhaps some of his officials may be to blame, but I think that the Minister should take a more serious interest in the administration of his Department in the Gaeltacht.

I have to complain that in my district, in the island of Gorumna, which is, I suppose, the most Irish-speaking district in Connemara, that there was a man appointed as paymaster of all those kelp gangs, and that to my knowledge he has not a single word of Irish. I can safely say he is the only man on that island who does not know Irish, and his duty in paying those gangs and in seeing that the gangers appointed are doing their work must be done through an interpreter. I think that the Minister has neglected his duty in seeing that in a place like Gorumna such an appointment was made. I think it is a wrong thing to appoint a shopkeeper to a position like this. When I spoke on that subject before he said I was always a fault-finder. I said I knew the way the money was going to be spent, and this is the way the money is being spent in Gorumna Island. He could surely have found a man besides the one single individual who does not happen to know Irish. He could surely have found an individual other than a shopkeeper, because what must happen in this case, especially with the people on that island who are living on the verge of starvation? They have to go to these people to get work, and the wages earned by these gangs are often spent before the work is actually done. Does not the Minister know that when you appoint a shopkeeper or a man of that type, who is more or less a gombeen man, over people who are on the starvation level, that you are bound to have unsatisfactory work done, that you are bound to have people coming to that man asking for tea, sugar, bread, or the other necessities of life, and getting it on tick on the understanding that they will be employed? Their wages will, in fact, be paid in kind. Does he not also know that these people are bound—it is human nature—to charge perhaps a little extra; and does he not know that there are other shopkeepers on the island who are trying to earn a living also, and who are at the disadvantage when working against that sort of thing?

There is no differentiation either in this estimate as to the loss in the kelp and the loss in the carrigeen industry. I have the same complaint to make about his administration of the carrigeen industry. The Minister will perhaps say, as he said before, that it is hard to please me, that I am always finding fault with the administration of the service. I think that the Minister should make some attempt to reply to this. I put it to him that it is not a laughing matter at all. I think the Minister should send down unbiassed officials to see that the administration of this money is being done in the proper manner.

In the carrigeen industry the position is that we do not know who is working on the schemes and who is not. The whole thing is a mystery. It is not a mystery to the Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies who go around with them. That sort of thing is being done and the money is being spent in Connemara for the advancement of the Cumann na nGaedheal Party. Even the Cumann na nGaedheal supporters in Connemara say it. They have said it to myself.

Dealing with the carrigeen moss industry, I know a man who is a publican, who has land and who is very well off. His son recently got a very good job worth about £300 a year. That man is employed in the carrigeen moss industry, and so is his family. When an assistant was required in the carrigeen store a lady was brought from the Midlands to an area where there is nothing but Irish spoken. She does not know any Irish. She does not understand what the people are saying, and they do not understand what she is saying to them. The Minister allowed that sort of thing to go on. I am only referring to one particular corner of Connemara, but the same thing applies all round. It may apply also in Donegal.

Then an advertisement was inserted for instructors to teach the people how to make kelp. One man was to be appointed in Galway. The applicants were supposed to attend for an interview either in Dublin or Galway. I was speaking to two or three persons who were looking for the position. They were native Irish speakers and were educated young men, and had a good knowledge of the industry. They told me that the man who was appointed did not turn up in Galway to be interviewed. He may have gone to Dublin to be interviewed. If so, he was probably the only man from Galway who went to Dublin to be interviewed. If they had two sets of officials to interview people for a certain position when there is no examination in question, how could they come to a proper decision as to who was the best man to appoint? They could not do it. Apparently it was a farce bringing these people to Galway for an interview, because the position was already given away. I have made very particular inquiries lately, and I find that the person appointed never made kelp in his life, but his services to the Cumann na nGaedheal Party were so great that he could not be let down. That is the way this money is being expended in Connemara.

I ask the Minister to get his higher officials to look into the matter. They may know all about it, but may not be able to stand up against local opposition. After all, we expect something more than that from the Minister. As to the Gaeltacht housing scheme, I have very little to say. I spoke on the adjournment last night, and the Minister gave us some information. I visited an island three or four miles from the mainland last Sunday and I saw a new house there. There are only four houses there altogether. The man who was building the house told me that an inspector came round and said the house was a bit too small and that if he added a porch to it he would get the full grant. Some weeks later another came round and told him he would have to add another room to it or knock it down. The Minister should let people know exactly what is required in order to obtain the full grant. There appears to be some mystery as to what is required. There should be some definite rules made. If these rules are in existence they have not been made public. People who have undertaken work and got beyond the foundations often find themselves in a fix because one man tells them the house requires certain alterations and another man that it requires other alterations. There is a considerable amount of uneasiness over the matter, and in some cases the people do not think they will get any money. They think that it is a question of putting them off.

I admit that the Minister is doing a lot of work for the kelp industry. I do not want to minimise his work, but I want to criticise the administration. I think he will find, if he goes around the West, cases probably just as bad as the particular cases I have spoken of. The Minister should not be satisfied with that form of administration. The Minister also should look into the question of the slips and piers which he is erecting to assist the kelp makers. In one place where a slip is being built I was told that there was never any kelp and never would be any kelp made. Some years ago there was some kelp made with black weed, but it was unacceptable. This slip is being built there, where it will never be utilised by kelp makers. The whole thing at the back of it is that this work is being done in those areas where the Minister's Party expect to get the largest number of votes. Instead of spending the money in a proper way, so that some return may be got for it, it is being spent solely to benefit certain areas which have been of good use to the Minister in the past, and which may require some little encouragement to be of some use in the future.

If this grant were used in a proper manner I am sure the losses would not be so great. There is one island particularly where the people were supporters of the Government Party. I find that a considerable amount of kelp from that island has been sold to another company. The price offered by the Minister's Department for kelp from Aran was considerably increased when the kelp was sold to a private company. I have been told that these people in Aran who are getting a better price for the kelp from the company than they could get from the Minister's Department were not being employed in the collection of sea rods. I hear, however, that that order has been rescinded. It was in force in Donegal and in Aran. I have not been in Aran since, but have had several letters from people there stating that they could not get work from the Department in the collection of sea rods because last year they refused to send their kelp to the Minister's Department and sold it to a private competing firm. I do not think that it would be a very good thing to eliminate all these buyers, if that is to be the policy. The Minister says it is not the policy. It would look as if it were the policy to eliminate competition so that nobody would be left to purchase kelp except the Minister's Department. I would not be in favour of that, because there is nothing like a little competition. If these people succeed, as I have heard they did in Donegal, in raising the price offered by the Minister's Department, it would be a very good thing as far as we are concerned. I hope the Minister will let us know exactly what is the deficit under Sub-head I. How much was due to losses on carrigeen, kelp and rural industries? I am rather anxious to know the total loss. I hope the Minister will let us know also about the factory. I hope he will give us an assurance that this money will be spent in the proper manner and that the administration will be carefully looked into, that it will not be said, as it is said at present, that it is a one-sided affair and an agreement, and that those people I mentioned there and who do not know Irish should be replaced and that it should not be considered that nobody is to be allowed to earn anything under this grant except a supporter of the Government.

Mr. Kilroy

I would like to ask the Minister why it is that nothing has been done for the kelp industry in Achill and Ballycroy during the past twelve months. On a former occasion I mentioned that in West Mayo, especially in Achill, Ballycroy and Erris, the kelp industry was an oldestablished industry. Recently kelp has not been made for various reasons. I am particularly anxious that the Minister would see that his officials should visit those districts and see the kelp industry established again under the new scheme. But up to the present nothing has been done in the matter. In the Ballycroy district particularly huge quantities of sea rods are washed in by the tide, and it is therefore a very suitable district for the development of the kelp business. It is surprising to find that the Minister has done nothing for the poor people in this particular district where the industry could be put on a secure basis, as the raw material is found there ready to hand. I do not think that there would be any particular difficulty in having the kelp industry re-established there.

So far as Deputy Tubridy's reference to securing instructors with a knowledge of the Irish language is concerned, I think the Minister should pay special attention to securing that instructors would be got in those localities where a knowledge of the industry is already at hand and where people know something about it. It would be very easy for the Minister to secure that young men and women would be able to get the necessary advancement in technical knowledge in order to make them proficient in assisting in the establishment of that industry. This I consider is very important, because sending down to districts like Achill, Ballycroy and Erris instructors who know nothing about the Irish language is in itself a very serious set-back to the language movement in the West, and is a thing that should not occur. I know there are numbers of clever young men and women very capable of receiving any knowledge that may be imparted to them in the respect I have mentioned.

Now, with regard to rural industries, and the woollen industry in particular, I referred some months ago in the House to the industry around the Newport district. I know the flannel producers of the Newport district make a famous cloth for which they receive from 7/- to 8/- a yard. I requested the Minister on a former occasion to see what could be done for that industry in the Newport district, but, so far as I know, nothing has been done for the woollen industry there. I know he could get hundreds of workers if he were willing to come to terms with them. They would be only too glad, and only too anxious, to assist in the development of the industry locally. The Newport woollens are famous for their beauty and good quality. It is very seldom that you hear of homespuns getting a price of 7/- or 8/- per yard, but that is a usual occurrence, I know, in my district.

We have the Housing Act in operation in the Gaeltacht for the past fourteen months. I find that in my constituency in the west of the county practically nothing has been done for the building of houses. From the figures given by the Minister of the housing operations, we find that out of 11,500 applications put before him only one-eighth of that number has been inspected, and the very small amount of one-thirtieth of the total amount has been sanctioned. Those who have applied have been induced or encouraged to go on with building, but only one-thirtieth, or, in other words, 369, according to the Minister's statement, new houses have been sanctioned. That, in my opinion, goes to show that this particular branch of his Department is not being pushed as it ought to. We believe much more could be done in the building of houses if only it was gone about in the right way. I am sure the Minister could acquire the assistance of many more engineers if he felt it necessary to do so. I do not think that the excuses he has given are at all to the point, because there is no question of obtaining capable engineers when he requires them. I know several that would be only too glad to secure a job from the Department if they could get it. So far they have not got it. We find also that only a little over £2,000 has been paid to those who have been encouraged to go on with building. £2,000 only has been paid out of the total amount voted in such a hurry last December twelve months for building houses in the Gaeltacht districts, and that is a very small amount to be paid out in the space of 14 months. Surely the Minister could do much more to speed up these matters in order that people would secure the necessary housing and to enable them to live under more healthy conditions than hitherto?

Seosamh O Mongáin

Ní raibh fúmsa blas do rá faoi seo meireach an rud adubhairt Tomás O Derig, Teachta. Is iongnadh mór liom go raibh Tomás O Deirg, Teachta, ag caint mar sin, mar má tá aon Teachta amháin sa Teach nár cheart bheith ag caint i ngeall ar airgead a caithfear ar cheilp gan air theacht ar ais do'n Rialtas, 's eisean é agus na Teachtaí eile a thagas ó Cheatharloch-Chill Choinnigh. Cé mhéid míle do caitheadh, agus atá á chaitheamh, ar dhéantóireacht siúcra nach dtiocfaidh ar ais go bráth? Ach cé'n dochar é sin nuair atá na boicíní á fháil agus na daoine bochta sin as na ceanntair seo againne ag íoc a son de. Shíl mé leis an méid ar chuala mé faoi bhochtanacht ó Theachtaí an Tighe uilig nach mbeadh siad 'na dhiaidh cé bith céard do caithfí ar na daoine bochta. Ní mar sin atá. Nuair nár íoc airgead na ceilpe é féin an chéad bhliain níl an dream taobh thall sásta. Má tá siad in aghaidh an t-airgead sin do chaitheamh ar na ceilpeadóirí bochta, ba cheart dóibh é do rá amach agus gan iad do bheith á rá leath, mar tá siad.

Níl a fhios agam ar cailleadh airgead ar bith ar an gceilp seo, ach, má cailleadh, cé air ar cailleadh é? Nach ar fhíor-Ghaedhil na tíre, na Gaedhil go ndeacha an Piarsach 'na mease nuair a bhí sé ag iarraidh an Ghaedhilg d'fhoghluim, do caitheadh é?

Dubhairt an Teachta O Tuibride— agus is ar éigean is fiú é do fhreagairt —rud amháin, gur toghadh duine den seisear cigire ceilpe gan bheith air dul faoi scrúdú ar bith, nó, má chuaidh sé faoi scrúdú, ní dheacha sé faoi scrúdú i nGaillimh. Deirim-se nach bhfuil sé ag innseacht na fírinne annsin, go ndeacha sé faoi scrúdú i nGaillimh.

Seán O Tuibride

Níor dhubhairt mé é sin. Dubhairt mé go mb'fhéidir go ndeacha sé faoi scrúdú i mBaile Atha Cliath ach nach bhfaca na daoine eile a bhí faoi scrúdú i nGaillimh é.

Seosamh O Mongáin

Deirim-se go ndeacha sé faoi scrúdú i nGaillimh. Tá mé cinnte dhe sin. Agus tá bród orm gurb é do toghadh mar toghadh fear chó cneasta agus atá sa Saorstát—fear gur tháinig a sheacht mbunadh as Conamara—ní 'nós na ndaoine atá ag caint.

Seán O Tuibride

An rinne an fear seo ceilp ariamh?

Seosamh O Mongáin

Rinne agus a sheacht sinnsir roimhe ar gach taobh Ní strainséir é; is leis an tír é.

Seán O Tuibride

Tá fearg ort!

Seosamh O Mongáin

Is beag an t-iongantas é go bhfuil. Má tá an dream taobh thall den Teach ag iarraidh an Aire do stopadh airgead do chaitheamh ar an gceilp déanfadh siad é amach. Deirim-se go rinne a ceannach maith an domhain do na daoine a bhí ag pléidhe lei.

Anois, faoi obair na dtighthe, tá's ag an tír nach féidir iad uilig a thógáil aon lá amhain. Níl aon phobal siar o Mhaigh Chuilin nach raibh na cigirí ann 'feachaint ar na tighthe agus i gcuideacha de na poblacha tá cuid réasúnta de na tighthe dul ar aghaidh. Ní féidir fir ceirde d'fháil dóibh uilig in éindigh. Tá súil agam, deire na bliana, go mbeidh go leor tighthe nua déanta sa gceanntar seo againne; níl a fhios agam céard tá á dhéanamh i gceanntar ar bith eile mar Mhuigheo agus Dún na nGall.

Mícheál Mac Pháidin

Rud amháin atá soiléir ón díospóireacht seo anocht, 'sé sin go bhfuil an Rialtas i ndáiriribh Gaedhil na Gaeltachta a dhaingniú agus a neartú 'na ndúthaigh féin. Má bhí amhras ar bith againn roimhe seo, níl amhras ar bith againn anois. Tá cruthú againn anois go bhfuil an obair ag dul 'un cinn go láidir agus go bhfuil scéimeanna faoi lán-reim seól aca a chuirfeas feabhas mór ar aghaidh na Gaeltachta. Is cruthú agus comhartha maith é go bhfuil an obair ag dul 'un cinn an meastachán conganta atá rómhainn indiu. Seo airgead atá ag tabhairt saothrú do bhuachaillí agus do chailiní atá ag tógáil ceilpe agus carraigíne, ag figheadóireacht, ag cniotál agus gréas-obair eile. Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil an Dáil gonta an t-airgead seo a thabhairt le croidhe fiúntach. Tá an t-airgead seo ag dul 'un sochair do fhíor-Ghaedheala na tíre a choinnigh beó gach tréithe náisiúnta dá bhfuil againn. Bheireann obair an Roinn seo misneach agus uchdach mór dúinn go léir. Nuair a bhéas tighthe úra tógtha san Ghaeltacht agus ceird ag duine no beirt san teaghlach—mar tá faoi ag an Rialtas a dhéanamh—beidh deireadh leis an bhochtanacht, an dithshláinte, an imirce, agus an síorghearán atá ag teacht ó lucht áirithe phoilitidheachta ó'n Ghaeltacht.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Níl a fhios agam céard a chuir fearg ar Sheosamh O Mongáin. Níor ghá dó aon fhearg do bheith air. Maidir leis an airgead atá á chaitheamh sa nGaeltacht, níl Teachta ar bith ar an dtaobh seo den Tigh in a choinnibh. Tá daoine chreideann go bhféadfaí an t-airgead do chaiteamh ar shlí níos fearr agus níos mó sochair do bhaint as. Sé sin an rud adubhairt Tomás O Deirg, Teachta. Agus má chreideann duine rud, tá cead aige é do rá. Sílim go bhféadfaí an obair do stiúra níos fearr ná mar tá á dheunamh fá láthair, do réir ar chuala mise agus mé i gConamara.

Maidir leis an bhfear seo go bhfuil caint faoi, níl a fhios agam an raibh sé i nGaillimh an lá sin no nach raibh. Deir Seosamh O Mongáin go raibh ach, má bhí, is ait an rud é nach bhfaca na daoine eile é.

Maidir leis na tighthe atá á dtógáil, bhí mé féin i gConamara mí o shoin agus i limistéar mhór annsin ní fhaca mé ach dhá cheann á dtógáil. Níl a fhios agam an mbeadh cead agam tagairt do cheist eile—an ceart coiníollacha do chur isteach i dtaobh an airgid a caithtear ar fhóirithin——

An Ceann Comhairle

Níl an cúram san ar an Aire fén meastachán so.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Ach dubhairt sé iniú go bhfuil cuid den airgead so á chaitheamh ar fhóirithin.

An Ceann Comhairle

B'fhéidir go bhfuil, acht níl aon chuid den airgead san ar an meastachán so?

Fionán O Loingsigh

Níl.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sin deire leis.

Proinnsias O Fathaigh

Deirtear go bhfuiltear ag cur iachaill ar na ceilpeadóirí an cheilp do dhíol faoi scéim an Rialtais. Má tá, ní ceart sin.

Mr. Lynch

With regard to the Estimate itself, the question which Deputy Derrig raised, asking whether that £27,725 and the savings from other sub-heads comes under the Appropriations-in-Aid, there was last year an estimate of £73,695. I want to say that the estimated savings are on kelp and the rural industries. There was voted in the House for kelp and rural industries £44,410, and out of this sum there was spent £22,270. That accounts for a saving of £22,140 under those heads. In the matter of the rural industries, there was voted for kelp £5,000. Of this, £3,000 was spent, leaving an unexpended sum of £2,000. For materials, there were voted £12,000. Under this head there was spent £10,000, and this left a saving of £2,000. On these three items together there was a total saving of £26,140. Other smaller savings under various sub-heads came to about £1,500, making a total saving of £27,640. As I pointed out in my opening statement, £4,000 is the sum which it is estimated that the kelp schemes of last year will cost. In fact, there will be a loss, if you like, of £4,000, less £1,200 worth of kelp that we have on hands. The receipts from this when sold will come into the next financial year. I should say, in fairness to the scheme, that from this there should be also deducted a sum of £1,700 which was spent in capital expenditure, like, for instance, the purchase of £25,000 bags, weighing-machines, and so on. The loss, therefore, on the scheme is comparatively little, considering what has been achieved as a result of that expenditure. Deputy Tubridy was chiefly concerned about the expenditure of this money. His suggestion is that the money was being deliberately spent by my Department for political purposes.

Dr. Tubridy

Excuse me. I do not want to be misinterpreted. I said that the appointments made under it and the people administering it were appointed for that purpose.

Mr. Lynch

Very well. We will see. An advertisement was published seeking for six Irish-speaking instructors for the kelp industry. Officials of the Department were appointed to interview the applicants. There were 70 applicants, and these came from various parts of the country, from Donegal, Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Clare, Kerry, and, I think, from West Cork. Whether or not the same inspector interviewed all the candidates is, to my mind, a matter of no importance, because surely it is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they should have an agreement as to the standard they would set in making their selections. I do not know who the six were who were selected, but there were six names sent to me. I certainly did not know a single individual amongst them. The officials who made the selection—civil servants—had absolutely no political affiliations, and it is an entirely wrong suggestion for a Deputy here to make a statement in the House that these civil servants were guided by any political bias. It was not so. Personally I was asked to interest myself on behalf of several applicants from my own constituency. There was not one Kerryman appointed to these posts. I did not interfere on behalf of any candidate. I accepted the first six on the list that was sent in to me. As to the persons about whom Deputy Tubridy was speaking who were interviewed in Galway, I believe there were two from Galway. One of these was from the Aran Islands. The man from Galway was, I am informed, a man named Keaney, and he was interviewed in Galway. The man from the Aran Islands was unable to attend at Galway at the same time that the other candidates were interviewed owing to the fact that his boat was late, but he was interviewed afterwards at Galway.

Dr. Tubridy

I have not mentioned him at all.

Mr. Lynch

These are the facts. It was because the boat on which this man came to Galway was late that he was not interviewed at the same time as the others. The quantity of kelp sold to the factory at Galway was 1,578 tons. In addition, 650 tons were sold to the French firm of Messrs. Devineau, a firm with whom the people there had dealings before. I do not know to whom Deputy Tubridy was referring when he referred to the English-speaking agents in certain places. It is not at all a bad sign that amongst all the people taken on to administer the scheme there was a complaint only about one on the score of Irish.

Dr. Tubridy

There could not be another man found in the area who had Irish!

Mr. Lynch

I do not know to whom the Deputy is referring, but I do presume there was some good reason brought forward to the Department for making that appointment. Deputy Kilroy was beating at an open door when he talked about sending down instructors to Ballycroy without a knowledge of Irish. It was an essential qualification that the instructors should have a good knowledge of Irish and be able to speak it.

Mr. Kilroy

I would like to point out to the Minister, with reference to the statement made by Deputy Tubridy, that there was nothing done in that respect.

Mr. Lynch

I may say that the instructors appointed had to have a working knowledge of the Irish language, and they must be capable of conducting all the business in Irish. They were selected to give their instruction in the Irish language only. They had to have a sufficient knowledge to carry out the instruction in Irish. As far as Achill is concerned, I may say that several visits have been paid to Achill with a view to developing the kelp industry there, but there has been no great disposition on the part of the people there to take up the industry again. One of the instructors appointed will give special attention to that area. I might say that the very same complaint can be made with regard to Kerry. For a number of years there has been practically no kelp industry in Kerry. There was a little effort made in the Maharees. During the coming season special attention will be given to this place. It is well to remember that the instructors have been appointed only a month and they are at present getting certain laboratory training in Dublin which will give them qualifications beyond what they would have had in their ordinary experience in the past burning kelp. The amount of money involved, as far as kelp is concerned, was £4,000, and you might deduct £1,200 worth of kelp on hands in various outlying places, and also the £1,700 invested as capital expenditure. The amount involved in the case of carrigeen was £300. We believe that the receipts from the carrigeen in hands will recoup us that £300.

With regard to the Gaeltacht housing, it was not, in fact, mentioned in the Estimate, but it has been mentioned and it was discussed quite a lot. I suggest the Deputies who mentioned it might have remained in the House when Deputy O'Connell raised the matter on the adjournment last night. I explained then what the position was. I said that during the earlier months after the passing of the Act there was, possibly, undue slowness. In spite of what Deputy Kilroy says, it was not at all so easy to get suitable engineers for this job. We had to get engineers who possessed a knowledge of Irish and who were able to conduct their business in Irish, because portion of their job as inspectors—so they are called—is to vet houses and be able to say whether or not Irish is the ordinary, spoken language of the household. That is one of the necessary conditions under which these loans or grants are being made. One Board that was set up by the Civil Service Commissioners for the purpose of selecting six such inspectors was able to find only two who had the necessary technical qualifications as well as the necessary qualification in Irish. We now have, however, a staff sufficient to deal with the work, and whereas only 98 cases were reported on by the end of August there were something like 150 reported on in September, 135 to 140 in October, 200 in November, 460 in December, and 430 odd in January. These are the figures up to 31st January. We believe that from now on, with the staff of inspectors we have, we will be in a position to have reports on about 400 or 500 per month. That pace will be quite fast enough to enable us to have spent the money in the time originally set out. There will be a falling off in the number of reports for a few months in the summer. From May, June, July and August the inspectors will be switched off for the purpose of inspecting houses under construction in order to report on them for the purpose of issuing grants and loans. I mentioned last night that sufficient cases will have been reported on by summer and sanction will have been given in sufficient cases by that time for as many houses as there will be handymen in the Gaeltacht available to construct.

Dr. Tubridy

Is the Minister still of opinion that the practice of appointing shopkeepers of what are generally known as the gombeen type as paymasters, and as men generally in charge of these schemes, is a good practice in the Gaeltacht?

Mr. Lynch

I would not be prepared to give a general answer to that either pro or con. I would like to be satisfied about the individual. There might be a shopkeeper of that type who would be entirely unsuitable; on the other hand, a shopkeeper of that type might be a most suitable person in a given locality.

Dr. Tubridy

Does the Minister consider that the payment of these men in kind, such as by tea or things of that sort, is right?

Mr. Lynch

That is illegal, and that is distinctly provided for by law under the Truck Act.

Mr. Kilroy

I would like to ask the Minister whether it is the intention of his Department to do anything for the kelp industry in Ballycroy. That industry was an old-established one there. I would like to be informed also as to whether anything is to be done for the woollen industry in the Newport district.

Mr. Lynch

I have already told the Deputy that one of these instructors is going to be allocated to Mayo in a district where there are hopes of reviving the industry. With regard to the woollen industry, I mentioned in my opening statement that a weaving centre is being established in Tourmakeady. I do not know how far or how near that is to Newport, as my geography is not very good in regard to that area. One centre is being opened shortly in County Mayo.

Mr. Derrig

I would like to ask the Minister what the position is in regard to the iodine factory. Have they taken over any quantity of this kelp? How is the factory being run, if it is in existence yet? Is it being run as a State institution, or to what extent is private enterprise responsible for it? What we do not understand about the loss of this £4,000 is this, namely, the Minister stated here very categorically on the Supplementary Estimate that Deputy McDonagh and an English company with which he was associated had made themselves responsible for the marketing of the kelp. We took it as an absolute guarantee that there could not be a loss on the kelp, but it appears now that the State at any rate is to lose £4,000. I would like to know how much the McDonagh combine has lost—probably not so much.

Mr. Lynch

I, surely, never made a statement to the effect that Deputy McDonagh and the English Chemical Company were to be responsible for the marketing of the kelp. I said they were establishing the factory as a private enterprise. They have done so, and have conducted it entirely as a private enterprise. I mentioned that 1,578 tons of kelp which we sold to them were sold by us as agents of the kelp-gatherers. I would like to stress again the fact that we are not buyers of kelp, but merely acting as agents of the kelp-gatherers. Any person who signs merely signs a membership form of entrance into an organisation of co-operative kelp-gatherers.

Mr. Derrig

So the combine will safeguard itself against any loss on the administration of the scheme? Your Department will have to be responsible for that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot enter into a debate again.

Mr. Derrig

I am asking a question on a point of information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to ask a question but not to make a statement.

Mr. Lynch

The fact is that the Galway factory is in the same position as any other buyers, such as Devineau. They are simply buyers of kelp, and we deal with them just as we deal with other people, and sell wherever we get the best price.

Mr. T. Sheehy (Cork):

I wish to ask the Minister a question. I am surprised at the course of opposition to the Minister——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What is your question?

Mr. Sheehy

We in Carberry's Hundred Isles are anxious to have the Minister send an inspector down there. We are not criticising his actions. We realise that he is making a supreme effort to revive the industry around our seaboard.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot make a speech.

Mr. Blaney

I would like to know whether the Minister is considering the question of reconstructing the iodine factory on the Fanad peninsula in Donegal.

Mr. Lynch

I cannot say off-hand, but I would point out that, in order that the factory would be economically worked, it would have to deal with a minimum of 1,000 tons. The maximum you would have in Fanad would be between 500 and 600 tons. Perhaps with the Burtonport area thrown in you might bring the amount to 1,000 tons, which would make the proposition economic. If it is any consolation to the Deputy, I may say that my own view is that the industry will not be on a satisfactory basis until there is a small subsidiary factory in Donegal.

Mr. Blaney

I can inform the Minister that last year 600 tons were produced there and that it is expected this year to exceed 800 tons.

Mr. Lynch

I accept the Deputy's figures.

Mr. Carney

Can the Minister give us any idea as to when there is likely to be a subsidiary factory there?

Mr. Lynch

I could not. It is not I who established the factory in Galway. It was established by private enterprise. It is a question whether the existing people, or some other people, may not think it worth while to start a factory in Donegal.

Mr. Carney

Does the Minister think that it would not be worth giving State aid towards the establishment of such factory?

Mr. Lynch

I should prefer to see it done without State aid, as in the case of Galway.

Mr. Carney

Is the Minister not aware that the factory was already established in Galway for the manufacture of different products and not merely kelp? Would it not be profitable for the people of Donegal to have State aid given to anyone who would establish a subsidiary factory here?

Mr. Little

As the Minister has mentioned the matter of housing, may I ask him has any progress been made in that direction in the Ring area?

Mr. Lynch

The Deputy should put down a question on the Order Paper.

Mr. Little

There was nothing done when I was last down there.

Motion put and agreed to.