Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 May 1931

Vol. 38 No. 16

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 50—Reformatory and Industrial Schools.

Minister for Education (Professor O'Sullivan)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £57,703 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1932, chun Costaisí mar gheall ar Scoileanna Ceartúcháin agus Saothair, maraon le hAiteanna Coinneála (8 Edw. VII., c. 67; Uimh 17 de 1926; Uimh. 24 de 1929).

That a sum not exceeding £57,703 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1932, for Expenses of Reformatory and Industrial Schools, including Places of Detention (8 Edw. VII., c. 67; No. 17 of 1926; No. 24 of 1929).

Mr. Moore

Did I understand the Minister to state that the State takes no responsibility with regard to industrial schools?

Professor O'Sullivan

No, I do not think I said that. I did not affirm or deny that. There was a question asked by Deputy Little as to whether any effort was made to see what happened the children who left, and whether any proper supervision was exercised over them. I simply answered that it was the duty of the manager of the school to exercise supervision for two years. I said I had no evidence that there was any abuse so far as the managers were concerned. By abuse I meant failure to some extent to supervise the children. Except, possibly, in one or two cases, there was no such failure, and these cases have not been brought before me personally; therefore, I could not answer off-hand whether there are one or two cases. I know personally of no evidence of any general abuse, and no case of failure on the part of managers to exercise supervision has been reported to me. I confined myself strictly to that.

Mr. Moore

Is there any inspection of these schools, and is there any report from them to the State in respect of the grants obtained? Does the State determine what trades are to be taught there, and whether agriculture is taught or anything of that kind?

Professor O'Sullivan

The schools are fully inspected.

Mr. Moore

There is no provision in the Estimates for inspection.

Professor O'Sullivan

There are individuals who carry out the inspection. There is actually a lady inspector, and the chief executive officer does a certain amount of inspection of industrial schools.

Mr. Little

Is there any system of report from the industrial schools?

Professor O'Sullivan

Yes.

Mr. Little

Would such report not state how the pupils who had left the schools were getting on?

Professor O'Sullivan

If the Deputy looks up the report of the Department he will see that a considerable amount of space is devoted to the industrial schools. He will see there plenty of statistics. The different trades to which the pupils are attached are also set out. I have no evidence that the people on whose shoulders the responsibility of supervision lies, namely, the managers, are neglecting their duty.

Mr. Little

I am not suggesting they are.

Professor O'Sullivan

There is no duty imposed on us to follow the pupils so far as their after life is concerned; the duty is on the managers.

Mr. Moore

Does the State suggest the curriculum for the schools or interfere with it in any way?

Professor O'Sullivan

We interfere very little with the schools. The curriculum is under debate at the moment between the industrial schools and ourselves. Some of the industrial schools are quite willing to accept the position that less trade work should be done at certain stages, at all events, during the period when the pupils are attached to the schools. Some of the others find a difficulty in changing their present programme. They are essentially the people who will decide the running of the schools. We interfere to a certain extent, but only to a certain extent.

Mr. Moore

Is agriculture taught in these schools?

Professor O'Sullivan

Yes, in quite a number.

Mr. Anthony

Deputy Moore should be aware, as a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, that so far as this question relating to the aftercare of the boys leaving industrial schools is concerned it has been already gone into. He should be satisfied that there is very rigid inspection up to the age of eighteen years. I know of at least one school, the Greenmount Industrial School in Cork, and long after the boys leave that school and are apprenticed, or sent out to farms, there are very frequent reports as to how they are getting on. I do not know what Deputy Moore has in mind.

Mr. Moore

It might be necessary to remind Deputy Anthony that what takes place at the Committee of Public Accounts is confidential.

Mr. Anthony

Yes, but the Deputy should know what took place there, and he should not ask the Minister such a question.

Question agreed to.