That is the amount of the collection. My sympathy is entirely with those who are living in areas far removed from telegraph delivery offices, but, like every other problem in the telegraph service, we have got to consider what we can do in view of the fact that we have a very substantial loss each year. As I said here last evening, it is a decaying service, and it is difficult to visualise how greater facilities can be afforded, considering the loss that is already involved.
Deputy Dillon, I think, raised the question of a reduction of staffs and seemed to infer that staffs were being reduced unnecessarily and that this was perhaps affecting the service throughout the State. I am afraid from my limited experience that the very reverse is the case: that we have many redundant officials that we are finding it difficult to place and still have the responsibility of carrying them, as many of them are established officers. It is difficult to assimilate these economically, and it is also going to be costly to dispose of them. We have also very considerable difficulty departmentally in trying to handle the problem of unestablished officers. There are many factors involved in this. One's human sympathy is with the unestablished officer whether he is a postman or an operator, and the inclination is to try and keep him in employment in view of the economic condition generally.
What I look upon as one of the tragedies of the service is that the selection often depends on the Minister. I personally would prefer if that could be obviated, and if the responsibility of making the selection fell into ordinary civil service channels. There is a certain amount of apparent patronage in the hands of the Minister in charge of the Department which causes a good deal of trouble, and I need not tell Deputies what it means to them in applying for preference for different people throughout the State. The main point that I want to come to is that we have redundant officers in the service, and that so far from the staff being hastily or unduly reduced the position is quite the reverse. Deputy Dillon referred to the congestion and faulty service at the General Post Office in Dublin. So far as I can ascertain from the Departmental heads, there have been no such complaints. I would point out to Deputy Dillon that in most businesses such as transport, restaurants, etc., there are what are known as rush hours and on those occasions one has to cope with the rush hour period as well as one can without unduly overloading the service for what might be looked upon as the normal or slack periods of the day.
The question of the reduction of telegram charges to Great Britain has already been dealt with, and I do not think I can add any more to it. Deputy Good referred to the high trunk charges, and to the delays— I think it was he referred to it—in getting connections with cross-Channel centres. I am having the matter of the trunk charges investigated, but I cannot hold out much hope of anything in the matter. With regard to the delays, there has been an undoubted increase in the trunk calls, and particularly cross-Channel calls. The business has grown, it appears, and the only solution would be an arrangement for an additional cable to the cross-Channel ports. That is a matter involving very heavy expenditure, and, under the present turnover, could not be contemplated.
Deputy Good also suggested that we should reduce charges for telephones. I would like to think that, at some future date, or near date, we might be able to consider that, but it will require considerable development yet in the telephone service before it can be contemplated. The people are not yet telephonically minded, so to speak, in this country, but undoubtedly there has been a very considerable growth, and if that growth continues we might be able to arrange for reduced charges. One idea that I have myself is that we should get the American system of monthly charges adopted here. The sum would look very small, and it might be attractive to subscribers, but involved in that would be the extra cost for book-keeping and furnishing accounts. I would also like to mention that our charges are not considered exorbitant in comparison with the charges in Britain. The business line charge in London, Birmingham, Glasgow and Liverpool, is £7, while the Dublin rate is £6 10s. 0d. The private line in these cities is £6, whereas ours is £5, so that we cannot consider that we are being over-charged, particularly when we take into account the proportionately higher number of subscribers there will be on the exchanges in these centres, compared with what we have, even in Dublin. With regard to the congestion in Rathmines and Terenure, so far as I know, most of these applicants have been satisfied, and the services asked for have been fulfilled. I am having further investigation made to see if there are any outstanding cases; if any orders for installations are not yet completed. Deputy Good also raised the question of reducing the postal rate from 2d. to 1½d. I pointed out in my opening statement what the effect of that would be—I think it works out that the reduction in the rate would mean something like £245,000, and, at the moment, we cannot contemplate that reduction, until we show, at least, a margin of profit.
A good many Deputies raised the question of equality of services, and, theoretically, I agree with them; but it is very difficult to see how it can be worked out. A person living in the outlying districts, say, two, three or four miles from a country town, may argue that he is a citizen of the State, and entitled to the same services as a resident of Dublin, and, theoretically, that is sound. But it is a fact that the delivery of letters to the outlying districts far exceeds in cost the postage that is charged. I do not see that we can go very far in regard to giving additional services, when we realise that postmen may have to go a circuit of six miles to deliver three, four or six letters. We certainly are not at the point yet when the economy of the service would allow it.
Deputy Dockrell dealt with the question of the College Green Post Office, and I may say that that matter has been engaging the attention of the Department for quite some time. We are hoping to have reconstruction at College Green. Certain steps are being taken in that direction at the moment. With regard to his complaint about the signs and curtains at that and other offices, I will try to see that such minor complaints as that will be dealt with. Deputy Briscoe raised the question of the savings bank, and the possibility of development in that direction. I may say that the savings bank department belongs properly to the Minister for Finance. However, I want to assure Deputy Briscoe that I am already seeing how the savings bank end of the business can be further extended and improved. It is a big problem, and of course will in the ultimate have to be decided by the Minister for Finance.
Deputy Myles advocates a flat rate for services. This is the old problem again of the man who lives three or four miles outside an area. There is only one aspect of that I should like to point out to Deputies who raised the question, and that is, if the people residing in Dublin have certain services and certain facilities in many directions, they pay for these in another way. The cost of living is probably considerably higher, rentals are considerably higher, and while they have conveniences it is generally felt that they have to pay for these in a great many ways.
Deputy Corish raised the issue as regards co-operation between the local bodies and the Department. I infer from what he said that this is the matter of facilities for erecting poles, brackets and so on. So far as I can learn, this co-operation is sought and generally follows. The Department has no anxiety to work against any interest or any body representing the people or any of the people themselves. I can assure him as far as I am concerned, that I will see that co-operation is always sought and that amicable arrangements are made before anything is done. He also raised the question of the method of compiling the telephone directory. The directory is complied on the alphabetical basis and it is generally believed that this is the most satisfactory way of doing it. I know from my experience in other countries that that is the method universally adopted.
Deputy O'Neill raised the matter of the basis of costs for telephone facilities in outlying districts. I have not had very much time to go into that matter yet. I have already, before I brought forward the Estimate, investigated it to some extent. Naturally, the method is to work out the costs of bringing the telephone to an area —the capital cost, the maintenance cost, and the cost of the engineering work, then take them in proportion to the number of subscribers and fix the cost on the basis of capital and maintenance cost over a certain number of years. I cannot see that any other method can be adopted. An isolated subscriber may want a line to his house and it may cost several hundred pounds to bring it. If he chooses to live in a certain area far removed, say on the top of a mountain, of course the telephone installation can only be made available for him at a certain cost. He also raised the question of superannuation. I was not very clear as to what he was referring, but I think he was talking about the hardship of unestablished postmen not being entitled to an established pensionable position. There are very definite Civil Service regulations governing that and they apply in the Post Office as elsewhere.
Deputy Kennedy mentioned what seemed to him to be an anomaly of a telephone message having to circuit round Dublin and come back to a point within a few miles of the point of origin. It will be obvious that there may be areas where a gap of four or five miles might exist between two points and there would be no justification for the erection either of poles of wires between these two points. If that were the case, the only method of sending a message would be to go right round the circuit. It looks anomalous, but when one realises that here again a cost of £400 or £500 might be necessary to make a direct connection where there would be very few messages perhaps, the situation I think will be obvious to all.
Deputy Norton raised quite a number of points. As he represents the Union looking after the interests of the postal servants I should like to deal with some of these matters. I have already been in contact with the Deputy on various matters affecting the status, position and condition of the service generally. He raised the matter of the Pearse Street office. Whilst the Department will not agree that these charges are entirely justified, and whilst I must frankly admit that up to the present I have not been in the Pearse Street office, I intend to be there next week. The Dáil will be interested to know that already arrangements are being hurried on so that construction work in the Pearse Street office can be carried out. We are very definitely expecting to have this work well under way this year. We want the work carried through for various reasons. It will give a certain amount of employment and I am personally anxious that our staffs should be as well housed and looked after as is possible in the circumstances. Deputy Norton can therefore rest assured that that work will be proceeded with at the earliest possible moment. The Deputy did raise a rather interesting point with regard to what he called the architectural design and structure of the country offices. I suppose we all have certain ideas of the ideal Post Office that we would like to see in every village and town, but unfortunately these are not realisable. We have to realise that in many country post offices we have to take the best available. When we realise further that some of these services only bear a remuneration of £18, £20, £30 and £40, and that for that the services in a small village have to be given, we cannot expect to have a model post office erected there.
The Deputy raised a most important point and one that will require very grave consideration, and that is the question of the closing down of postal services on Christmas Day. There are two points of view about that. In one sense we would all very much like to release all postal servants so that they may be at home with their families on Christmas Day. That certainly is very desirable, and if we feel that the public will stand for that, I would be delighted to see it put through. I understand that all over Great Britain there are almost complete services on Christmas Day. I might mention also that for Christmas Day work post office officials are given double pay, and it appears that some of them would not like to be deprived of that. However, taking the thing on its broad basis, I say that we ought to abolish Christmas Day work if at all possible, and I can assure Deputy Norton that my leaning is that way.
If I can see my way to abolish the Christmas Day deliveries next year, I shall do so, that is, assuming, of course, I am still in the position I am in now. The public, of course, could make that easy. I would point out to the House that every Christmas, appeals are made to post early and to avoid the necessity of employing men on Christmas Day, but, like most notices of that type, they are almost completely ignored.
Deputy Norton raised a most important point with regard to the assistants and to the steps that are possible with regard to making promotion easy or at least available in the postal service. The Executive Council has not yet got to the point of definitely laying down its policy with regard to promotion. But speaking purely personally, my feeling is that all the avenues leading to promotion should be open to every member of the Civil Service. That is not so easy as it might appear. The only method I see possible is to leave the doors open either by limited examination plus selective nomination by responsible supervisors and departmental control so that it would be possible for an intelligent, bright youth to progress from the lowest step in the Civil Service to the highest appointment in his Department. That is fundamentally my point of view from the point of view of justice and the leaving open of the door to promotion. As I say, the Executive Council has not yet dealt with the matter from the complete Civil Service point of view but all my leaning is that way and I hope to see that method adopted.
He also referred to the moral responsibility of the State in its employment, and referred to the responsibilities and onerous work of the postal servants and the question of wages. He stressed the fact that wages would have to come before reduced charges. Here again one would have to approach the matter from the point of view of equity. We do not want any slave-driving or any underpaid workers in the Civil Service. We want reasonable work under decent conditions. That is my attitude of mind, and that will prevail in the postal service so far as I can make it prevail. The question of conditions for the service in the Department being taken before reduced charges will, I fancy, always be taken care of by Deputy Norton and his organisation. These are the main points raised in the debate that follows the Vote, and I think I have dealt with them certainly as fully as my limited experience in the service enables me to do.
