Skip to main content
Normal View

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 6 Jul 1932

Vol. 43 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. - Electricity Supply (Amendment) Bill, 1932—Second Stage.

I move "That this Bill be read a Second Time." This Bill makes provision for an expenditure under two distinct heads: firstly, under Section 2 for an expenditure by the Minister in discharge of his functions under the Act of 1925—that is, for an expenditure of £335,000; secondly, by the Electricity Supply Board for additional provision for the generating capacity of an expenditure of £365,000. The provision made for expenditure by the Minister will, it is expected, be final as far as he is concerned, and it covers four broad heads: (1) the settlement of the contractors' claim; (2) the settlement of claims for compensation; (3) certain minor works; and (4) costs of administration.

Sub-section (5) of Section 11 of the Shannon Electricity Act of 1925 imposed a limit of £5,210,000 on the amount of the advances which can be made from the Central Fund for the Shannon scheme. That amount was increased by the Electricity Finance Act of 1929 to £5,835,000. The further increase contemplated by this Bill brings the total up to £6,170,600.

These advances will be made to the Shannon Fund, which is under the direct control of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, subject, of course, to the sanction of the Minister for Finance. The payments made from these advances will be made by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The position in respect of this Fund is as follows: The total borrowing powers authorised under the Act are £5,835,000. The total payments made up to 30th June this year were £5,780,200, leaving a small balance of £54,800. The expenditure for which provision is now required is: (1) Compensation. The total required in respect of compensation is £203,250. The main item is in respect of compensation which will arise for lands flooded or required in or around Lough Derg. The amount which we are asking for in respect of compensation may be on the generous side. It is hoped that a number of claims may be settled for somewhat less than we have estimated, but it is obviously desirable that we should be on the safe side to avoid any possibility of having to come to the Dáil again with a further Bill, and also to enable the various compensation claims to be disposed of as rapidly as possible. There is a sum of £23,197 required for certain minor civil works. There are a number of such works required of various kinds, none of them very large. In addition, there is a sum of £6,000 required to meet administrative expenses up to the completion of claims in respect of lands flooded and acquired. We are also making provision for £5,000 for contingencies. The total under these heads amounts to £237,447. Deducting from that the balance given already of £54,800, we get a net amount of £182,647, which is the sum required in respect of these items. We have to add to that a sum of £150,000 payable to the contractors. These two together make a total of £332,647, or roughly, the £335,000 that we are asking for now in the Bill.

The position in regard to the payment which has to be made to the contractors is as follows: In August, 1930, the contractors rendered their final account in respect of the works carried out by them under the constructional contract dated August, 1925. The full amount of the claims came in round figures to £1,055,000. At the time of the rendering of the account the contractors notified the Minister then in office and the engineers that on certain legal grounds they contended that the engineer was no longer qualified to issue a certificate based on that final account, which would be binding on the contractors under contract.

The engineer proceeded with the examination of the accounts with a view to the issue of a certificate for such items as he considered admissible. The Minister's representative attended before the engineer, but the contractors did not. On the 21st October the engineer issued a certificate indicating which items of the account he considered admissible and which items were inadmissible. The items regarded as admissible amounted, in round figures, to £24,500. The complaints made by the contractors against the engineer fell into three classes. They complained that the engineer did not give decision at the stage when it was alleged he should have done so; that is, in the case of extensions of time. They complained that the engineer did not give the decisions which the contractors desired in matters relating to wages, and they complained that the engineer would not act without the Minister's authority in the giving of written orders for extra work.

The contractors applied to the Attorney-General for a fiat to institute proceedings in the courts with a view to establishing their contention that the engineer was no longer qualified to make binding conditions under the contract, and thus reopen all the decisions in the certificate of 21st October, 1930. The late Attorney-General did not grant the fiat, but he appears to have intimated to the contractors' solicitor that he would consider any further representations they were in a position to make on the matter. Before the matter was proceeded with, the facts of the case were reported to Professor Meyer-Peter. He was one of the experts concerned with the initiation of the civil construction side of the Shannon works. He was asked for an independent opinion as to what sum, if any, over and above the amount paid to the contractors on foot of the engineer's certificate of the 21st October, the contractors could reasonably expect to establish as due to them on the final review contemplated in the contract of the items of their account regarded as inadmissible. Professor Meyer-Peter, having considered the matter, mentioned a sum in the region of £150,000. The Executive Council of the late Administration approved of an offer of this amount. An offer was accordingly made to the contractors' solicitor; it was accepted by his clients, and a formal agreement made between my predecessor and the contractors was subsequently executed. It is on foot of that that this payment of £150,000 is now being made.

The second heading under which expenditure is provided for in this Bill is in connection with the decision, by the Board, to increase the generating capacity. That is under Section 4. Before dealing with that I would like to explain the necessity for Sections 3, 5 and 6 of the Bill. Section 3 has relation to so much of Section 15 of the Principal Act, as amended by Section 7 of the Act of 1930, as limits the time within which variations may be made. Sub-section (2) of Section 15 of the 1927 Act provides, in effect, that when any portion of the Shannon works is handed over by the Minister to the Electricity Supply Board, the Board becomes liable for a proportionate part of the advances made to the Minister from the Central Fund for the construction of the works and also for any outstanding interest on such advances. In practice it was found that it was impossible in some cases to determine accurately the liability to be transferred to the Board until a considerable time had clapsed from the actual transfer of the works.

Sub-section (10) of Section 15 of the Principal Act, which was inserted as an amendment by the Electricity Supply (Amendment) Bill, 1930, provides for the subsequent variation of a liability fixed under sub-section (2), but it was stipulated that such variation could not be made after the commencement of the half-yearly payments to be made by the Board by way of repayment to the Exchequer of the advances originally made to the Minister for Industry and Commerce for the construction of works—payment of compensation, etc. It is now considered that the limitation upon the time within which the variation may be made in the liabilities transferred from the Board should be removed.

Under Section 5 (4) of the Shannon Electricity Act of 1925, claims for compensation for permanent interference with fishery rights may be made at any time within ten years after the completion of the works which caused the interference. The repayment of the advances to the Minister for paying such compensation will be imposed as a liability on the Electricity Supply Board by making some portion of the Shannon works that has been handed over to the Board liable for such proportionate part of the advance as is fixed. It is clear that claims for compensation for permanent interference with fisheries may be made long after the portions of the Shannon works have been handed over to the Board, thus necessitating the variation of the proportionate parts of the advances already fixed and necessitating such variations later than the date fixed by sub-section (10) of Section 15. It is possible that a similar variation may be also required by reason of expense incurred by the Minister under certain other heads.

Section 5 is necessary to give the Electricity Supply Board power to construct, maintain and operate the generating station at Ardnacrusha. When the Act of 1927 was being drafted it was intended the Board should not embark on extension works at Ardnacrusha without the prior consent of the Oireachtas. The view is that sub-section (3) of Section 20 of the 1927 Act empowers the Board to construct, maintain and operate electrical generating stations anywhere throughout the Saorstát except at Ardnacrusha. Therefore, apart from the provision of the necessary money, the Board must get legal power to extend the generating station at Ardnacrusha and that power is conferred by sub-section (1) of this section. The effect of sub-section (2) is to make any additional works constructed under Section 5 part and parcel of the Shannon Hydro-Electric Scheme for all purposes. The Act of 1927 defined in general terms the functions of the Board in relation to the system and contained other provisions such as that which enables the Board to exercise certain functions and duties through its duly authorised officers and servants. Sub-section (2) of this section places the extensions, for which Section 5 provides, on the same footing as the remainder of the Board's works.

As regards Section 6, the position is that the Minister for Industry and Commerce acquired under the Act of 1925 certain lands, chiefly flooded lands, as a result of the construction of the works. The Minister as the result of the acquisition becomes liable in lieu of the tenant to pay annuity and other payments to the Land Commission under the Land Purchase Acts. Certain agreements have also been made with the Great Southern Railways Company for the construction of railway sidings in connection with the transformer station. Under these agreements certain small payments are due in perpetuity by the Minister to the Company and vice versa. There are also certain other mutual benefits and obligations under these agreements. Under existing powers the Minister must pay these annuities and transfer to the Board the liability for repayment to the Minister for Finance of the advances which must be made from the Central Fund to enable the Minister for Industry and Commerce to make the payments. This is a somewhat cumbersome procedure, particularly as the amounts involved are comparatively small, and when the Minister has completed operations under the Shannon Act it would be a waste of time and labour, involving book-keeping transactions over a long period, if the present arrangement were continued. This section accordingly provides for the transfer to the Board of the liability to make such periodical payments in future. The transfer will be made by order in the same way as the liability in the past has been transferred to the Board for repayment of advances to the Shannon Fund. It is estimated that the total annual payment for which liability will be transferred to the Board under the section will not exceed £3,000, which is a comparatively small sum in relation to the Board's annual revenue. It will be made out of the Board's revenue, and it will not be possible for the Board to obtain advances for the purpose of meeting recurring liabilities of that kind.

Section 4 provides a sum of £365,000 for the provision of additional generating capacity. Shortly after the change of Government took place, it was intimated to me by the Electricity Supply Board that new generating capacity would be required to meet the peak load in 1933, and the summer load in 1934. Certain discussions took place as a result of which the Board examined the various methods by which the additional generating capacity might be provided. The Board examined the cost and the advisability of providing the additional generating capacity by new hydro-electric units only, by new steam units only, and by a combination of one hydro-electric unit and one steam unit. The figures presented by the Board supported their recommendation, which was in favour of getting the additional generating capacity by the installation of one new hydro-electric unit at Ardnacrusha and an additional steam unit at the Pigeon House. The Board estimated that in the year 1933-4 the number of units to be developed would be roughly 200,000,000; that the peak load in that year would be 78,000 kilowatts; that it was necessary to have a plant capacity of 98,000 kilowatts. The capacity of the existing plant being only 90,000 kilowatts it was necessary that provision should be made for the additional 8,000 kilowatts required for the peak load. The existing plant, they estimated, would be deficient by 20,000 kilowatts in the following year, by 32,000 in 1935-36, and by 44,000 in 1936-37. They estimated that the annual cost of production in respect of new plant to produce 40,000 kilowatts would, if new hydro-electric units only were determined upon, be £41,000; if new steam units only were determined upon, £39,500; and with a combination of one hydro-electric unit and one new steam unit, £33,500. That would be in the year 1935-36—and the plant capacity would have to be increased by that amount.

The reason for these figures, and the reason for the Board's recommendation was that if they decided to go ahead with new hydro-electric units only, certain additional storage would have to be provided, but by the installation of an additional steam unit at the Pigeon House it was possible for them to make much more advantageous use of their present storage. They have what they call an iron ration of water storage. That iron ration represents a certain water storage which must be held during the various years until such a late period in the summer that it generally cannot be utilised at all. If sufficient steam generating capacity to carry the day load in the event of an extended dry spell in the autumn were provided, that iron ration of water storage could be released. Consequently it appears from the Board's report that the provision of additional steam capacity as the result of reducing the number of units to be generated by steam would enable the water power to be more fully utilised. It is intended that when this additional plant has been installed, and when generation has reached 250,000,000 units per year, there will be only about 15,000,000 units steam power required, while the rest, that is 94 per cent., will be water power. During the dry years, of course, the conditions can be such that the steam energy will be about 50,000,000 units at that stage of the load. The costs of the various installations recommended by the Board are:—

(1) the installation of a 25,000 k.v.a. generator, combined with a Kaplan turbine of 30,000 horse power, at Ardnacrusha, together with the necessary transformer and switch gear, £220,000;

(2) the installation of a 20,000 kilowatt steam turbine with provision of boiler capacity of approximately 10,000 kilowatt at the Pigeon House station, £100,000, and

(3) an increase in the boiler capacity from 10,000 kilowatt to 20,000 kilowatt at the Pigeon House station, £45,000.

It will be noted that a 20,000 kilowatt steam turbine is to be installed at the Pigeon House, but that increase in boiler capacity will be only to the extent of 10,000 kilowatt. That is all that is considered necessary at the present time. It has been intimated that certain developments in boiler construction are going on, and that, although these developments have now been nearly completed, they have not yet reached the stage where we would be safe in investing in a boiler of the new design. It is not necessary, however, that we should do so at this stage. This second boiler will not be required for some time, and, by that period, it is thought that these new developments will have been perfected, and that, consequently, by delaying the installation of the second boiler until it is absolutely necessary, the advantages of the new development can be secured.

In connection with these new works it is necessary that I should explain to the Dáil a certain decision that was made by the Executive Council. The information conveyed to me was that the additional generating capacity would be required in the winter of 1933, and that there was no time to be lost, as the installation of the additional generating capacity would take a very considerable time. A period of 18 months was mentioned in connection with the new hydro-electric units, as representing the very minimum which could be considered, whereas 20 to 24 months was much more likely to be the time required. A period of 15 months was mentioned in connection with the new steam units. It is understood that the total capacity of the existing plant is adequate to supply the peak load next winter, but certain insurance against breakdowns must always be effected, and if one unit went out of production, the generating capacity of the remainder would be inadequate to meet the load. Consequently, it is essential that some additional generating capacity should be provided before the winter of next year. The circumstances required a prompt decision and yet it was not possible, on the information available, to make that decision. A certain period elapsed while the Board was examining tenders received, and various expert reports submitted and preparing its report for me. In the meantime, they recommended that, in so far as the new hydro-electric unit might form a part of any programme determined on, work could be proceeding on the erection of the coffer-dam at Ardnacrusha.

I felt that I was bound by an undertaking given to the Dáil by my predecessor, and given at my own request, that no part of the money provided for the Electricity Supply Board, the £2,000,000 provided last year, would be expended on new generation. When this proposal in respect of a coffer-dam, however, was submitted, in view of the apparent need for urgency, the Executive Council decided to authorise the Board to proceed with the construction of this coffer-dam and to charge the amount against that £2,000,000. The amount was £30,000. That amount is, however, being provided out of this sum now asked for, so that the position in respect of the two million pounds will remain unchanged. It is necessary, however, that we should inform the Dáil that that step was taken. The coffer-dam will be more or less a permanent structure. It will be permanent to this extent, that it will be left there after the new turbine has been installed, with whatever alterations are necessary, and will, consequently, reduce the cost of the installation of an additional turbine which may be installed at Ardnacrusha. The erection of another coffer-dam on another occasion will not be necessary.

No doubt Deputies will be querying the position in respect of the publication of the Board's accounts. The Board's accounts for the year 1930-31 have not yet been published and, as Deputies are aware, they are long over-due. It was originally intended that these accounts should be available at the beginning of this year, but the audit of them has not yet been completed. I am now informed that it is expected that the audit will be completed by the end of August and that the accounts for the year 1931-32 will be ready for audit by the end of July, and that the audit should be completed by the end of September. It is necessary, however, that Deputies should be given some information concerning the financial position of the Board. We had a long discussion on this matter last year, and it was revealed that the financial position of the Board was by no means satisfactory. I do not think it can be said to be satisfactory yet, but, as the public know that that is the position, the question we have to ask ourselves is, by what date, and with what speed, the unsatisfactory nature of the financial position of the Board can be remedied. It is estimated that the accounts for the year 1930-31 will show a deficiency of £198,318. Deputies may compare that sum with the very much smaller deficiency shown in the accounts for the previous year which have been published, but, in order to get a proper comparison, they must bear in mind that included in the items of expenditure in the year 1930-31, there were for the first time the full interest charges to the Department of Finance in respect of Shannon works transferred to the Board. The greater part of the works were transferred in that year and an interest payment of í359,419 fell due. There were also certain abnormal allocations in respect of depreciation of stocks and bad debts, but the position at the end of the year was, as I have said, that the revenue of the Board from the sale of electricity, or from any other source, was inadequate to meet all the charges against that revenue by a sum of £198,318.

That figure which I have given is of course an estimated figure. The audited accounts have not been published but it will serve to give Deputies a general idea of the position. For the year 1931-1932 it is estimated that the deficiency will be £33,169. That estimated deficiency is substantially less than the deficiency of the previous year but there is nevertheless a deficiency there. In that year the interest payment was £455,000, but the same provision in respect of depreciation of stock and bad debts had not to be made. For the future the position is that the Board estimate that for the year ending 31st March next they will produce a surplus roughly in or about £90,000. In the following year, however, that is the year 1933-4, sinking fund payments will arise for the first time. The surplus for the year 1932-3 plus the surplus for the year 1933-4 will be adequate to meet the sinking fund payments arising in the year 1933-4, leaving a sum of £33,000 for allocation to reserve.

Deputies are aware that the Board is required by the terms of the Electricity Supply Act, 1927, to make certain provisions in respect of depreciation and other charges and that the interpretation of that section was one of the matters in dispute between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Board. A strict interpretation of the section required the Board to make normally a provision in respect of depreciation which would provide a fund capable of renewing all the assets transferred to the Board when their renewal became due. If that full depreciation fund had been provided, taking it that the Board is required to make that full depreciation fund, there would be a deficiency in that fund of £407,000 on the 31st March last. That deficiency would have increased to £507,000 on the 31st March next and would continue to increase according to the Board's estimates up to the year 1937. In each year some payment against that deficiency might, they estimate, be made but as from next year, that is, the year 1933-4, the Board expect that the revenue will be adequate to pay all the cost of operation, repairs and maintenance, and the general management expenses, and the payment in respect of liabilities assumed from local authorities, interest and sinking fund charges, with a small surplus.

It is obvious from these figures that any proposal to reduce the charges for electricity would have to be very carefully considered. The financial position of the Board is, as I have said, unsatisfactory and it is necessary that we should be satisfied that any alterations in policy in respect of rates was not going to produce a diminution in revenue which would make that position still more unsatisfactory. The Board estimate, on the basis of annual consumption, an increase in consumption of 14 per cent. It might be contended that a decrease in rates might produce an annual increase in consumption to a greater amount. That may or may not be correct. I have not had an opportunity of going into that aspect of the matter with the very great care that would be necessary before I would be in a position to make up my mind as to what the possibilities were but in the light of the figures which I have given it is quite clear that any alteration in policy would have to be very carefully studied before being given effect to.

The present position is that the Board expect to meet all their interest charges in this matter, plus all their operation expenses, with a small surplus this year. They hope next year to be able to commence the payment of sinking fund charges as well as interest charges, and the operation expenses with a small surplus, but as I have pointed out, they have as yet made no provision for a reserve fund, as was contemplated under the Act, and they do not expect to be able to reduce in any way the deficiency in the Reserve Fund, which a strict interpretation of the relevant section would make it necessary to decide exists, until the year 1937. At the same time there is no reason to regard the financial position of the Board as unsound in any way. I think that whatever interpretation of that particular section of the 1927 Act is the correct one, it is an arguable case that the Board should not be required to make that full depreciation provision, while at the same time repaying capital advances. However, it is obvious that even if we decided that the Board should not be required to make that provision for depreciation at all, it would still not be possible to contemplate any diminution in revenue consequent upon a reduction in lighting or heating charges.

I have refrained up to the present from saying anything that might give rise to a general discussion upon the whole policy of electrical development in this country. The Government on coming into office had to deal with the situation that it found existing. It found the Shannon Scheme controlled by the Electricity Supply Board in the position which I have indicated, requiring additional generating capacity to meet an anticipated demand for current and requiring that additional generating capacity with considerable urgency. It has put before the Dáil the recommendation of the Electricity Supply Board as to the manner in which that increased generating capacity should be provided. We have examined, with all the care which the time available permitted, the various figures submitted by the Board. On these estimates and figures it appears that the Board's recommendations must be accepted as being the most economical and best suited to deal with the situation, particularly the situation in respect of time.

The new generating capacity which will be provided by this expenditure will provide for all the requirements of the Board to the year 1936. After that date, if the increase in consumption continues at the rate of 14 per cent. per annum, a still further generating capacity will have to be provided, but before then, I think, there should be an expert examination into the whole question of the future of electrical development here. There should be an examination into the various problems that are associated with the provision of additional generating capacity at Ardnacrusha, such as the suitability of providing it by additional steam plant or the possibility of providing it by some other method. However, that examination can proceed, and it is the intention to arrange for it, in due course. In the meantime, however, the position is that this increased generating capacity must be made available and no time can be lost in doing so. Things have already run rather close and we could not afford to take the risk of delaying matters any further as, otherwise, at the end of 1933, we might find ourselves in the position that we should be unable to supply the demand for electricity that might the arise. Consequently I recommend the Bill to the Dáil.

I must say that there has been no Bill, which has proceeded from the Ministry to date, to which I can give such complete, warm acceptance and recommendation as this. Apart altogether from the three relatively rather minor changes made in Sections 3, 5 and 6 of this measure, there are the two somewhat big points outstanding—that there is required one sum of about £335,000 and another sum of £365,000. I feel that the fact that the present Ministers come here asking for these sums is in itself the completest answer that could be given to the comments made by the present Minister, when he stood over here, in July, 1931. That may be regarded as introducing controversial matters which it would be better avoid, inas-much as we have made an agreement as to the saving of time. I will avoid them by postponing them, because there will be an opportunity later on to go into them, but since the Minister said something about the generating capacity that will have to be provided I want to refer to it.

We are told that the first sum of £335,000 is required for compensation claims, for certain minor civil work, for certain administrative expenses which will be incurred until the land claims have been paid off, for a very small sum for contingencies, and for a sum to meet the charge made by the contractors with regard to the final account. I would like Deputies to note in this House that, when the discussion last came on with regard to the Shannon expenditure and finances, it was assumed by the people who are now the Government that the contractors' claim for £1,000,000 would have to be paid. Two or three Deputies here, who were most voluble at the time with regard to the Shannon finance, made up expenditures of their own, which they said would have to be met, which amounted to from £14,000,000 to £17,000,000, and one of these millions pointed out was the million that would have to be found to meet the contractors' claim. It must be a source of gratification to them that that one million pounds has been reduced to £150,000, and was reduced to that amount more or less, but not entirely, under the circumstances of which the Minister spoke. The claim arose, according to the Minister, because the Engineer was declared by the contractors as no longer qualified to issue the final certificate for the reasons that it had been charged to some extent that he had been against the contractors from the point of view of extra wages and that he was too much under the control of the responsible Minister. They claimed that the sum of £1,000,000 was due to them. The Minister said that action was first of all prevented because the Attorney-General had not granted his fiat for execution, but he said that, prior to this taking place, one of the experts on the scheme was consulted. That skips over a certain important piece of history. The Attorney-General had not at any time refused to grant a fiat. He said that in a matter of this sort, a Governmental matter, a matter dealing with a State proposition, he had to have a very definite prima facie case before him before he could give a fiat and he asked for further supplemental information. There was a lag in proceeding and it turned out afterwards that that lag had been deliberately brought about because the contractors themselves were becoming somewhat doubtful as to the amount of money they would have to spend trying to establish their claim to oust the Engineer from the contract and because they were beginning to be not so confident that, even if they succeeded in their first plan of ousting the Engineer, they would be granted a sum equivalent to the expenses that would have to be incurred in a legal suit. The matter was taken up afterwards, while this lag was going on, by men representative of the firm and myself. When certain representations were made to me, I had also to consider what the State was likely to lose in the way of actual money, and in the way of time lost on the part of two or three very eminent civil servants and engineers in the occupation of the State, in having a case of this magnitude, if they had to be kept going making up evidence and giving evidence in a very long drawn out case such as this promised to be. Before there was a consultation with Professor Meyer-Peter, there was a consultation with the Engineer, and he frankly admitted that if there had been a representation made to him when the final certificate was being issued and the contractors had appeared either in person or in the person of their representatives, he had no doubt whatever but that the final certificate which he had given in the first instance would have been increased. By how much, he did not say.

In these circumstances it would be necessary to go into details and figures and to find out what is the proper sum to have paid in addition to the £24,000 which was the amount of the financial certificate. After certain detailed examination of that amount of money was made, Professor Meyer-Peter was definitely approached and asked to consider himself established as arbitrator hypothetically. In that I was relying on the fact that the contract itself, which was rigidly and tightly drawn, did contain a clause where, by agreement between both parties, an arbitrator or arbitrators could be set up for the determination of any points that fell for dispute between the two sides. I asked Professor Meyer-Peter to consider himself, for the time being, established as such arbitrator, and to let me know, in private, his opinion of the amount of money which equitably should be granted to meet the contractual rights of the company and the contractors' claims, the impact of these being left to his determination as to which was the superior matter and which had the more justice about it. He was asked to say what, on the whole, he would consider would be the sum that he would recommend for payment.

Previous to hearing from Professor Meyer-Peter about the sum, I had myself discovered that the contractors' firm would be satisfied with the payment of £150,000. Professor Meyer-Peter recommended something more. However, subsequently the action was settled on the basis of £150,000. It is to be noted, in that connection, that Professor Meyer-Peter was called in, but not as somebody to pass a rather casual sort of judgment on the matter. The whole business was presented to him as if it was an arbitration established under a contract by virtue of a particular section of the contract. He was asked to pass his judgment in that capacity and he did so. It was a rather satisfying thing that the contractors themselves had come to the conclusion that £150,000 would satisfy them; that an engineer whose conduct was not questioned, had come to the conclusion that a minimum sum of £120,000 and a maximum sum of from £160,000 to £170,000 would be satisfactory, and that Professor Meyer-Peter's sum of £150,000 was the sum granted. It seems to me, taking all these things into consideration, that the House and the country should be satisfied that the payment made is not merely the minimum payment to prevent an action but an equitable sum from the point of view of all the parties to the contract.

I want to stress that last point, because undoubtedly I met nobody in my time who investigated these works, and had an appreciation of what was going on, who did not express the opinion that the contractors had done work on that scheme which was worth very much more than the payment they received. And I heard nobody outside the firm but who expressed the opinion that the firm had in fact made the ordinary percentage profit that a firm would like to have on such a contract, and I heard expressions of opinion of doubt as to whether they made any profit or not. The second item is one of £203,000 for compensation, and it was said that that was for flooding in and around Lough Derg.

No, part of it.

Well, in the main. I am sorry he mentioned any sum for compensation because he will find that there will be an immediate foregathering of people concerned to see how best they may divide this £203,000. That figure will be before them. I think it would be better if we had been told, simply, that there was a certain sum of money required for compensation and if the Minister liked he could even come forward and say that it would be a reasonable thing to increase his contingency amount and that he was prepared to give compensation. There are charges for flooding in and around Lough Derg, in that amount.

Perhaps I had better explain. I do not want to create any wrong impression. There are quite a number of specified classes of cases of compensation included in that amount. The largest happens to be in and around Lough Derg.

I am delighted to hear that the £203,000 is for a number of claims and not from Lough Derg alone. In connection with Lough Derg there was the suggestion made that by depriving the turbines of a certain amount of water leading to a lowering of the lake a certain amount of damage, now inflicted upon the owners of land around Lough Derg, could be prevented in the future, and that there would be no necessity to protect in years to come these proprietors from excessive flooding, or to buy out certain lands proposed. I presume that the matter is still under consideration, because I do not think it had advanced to a point where any real decision could be taken on the matter. And as that particular programme did seem likely to lead to a considerable reduction in the sum that would be paid to those around Lough Derg I think it is one that could be pursued with advantage. The least optimistic figures I saw indicated that a saving could be made on that payment. The other item included in this sum of £335,000 does not amount to much. In ordinary years the administration expenses and contingencies are small and reasonable. The next item is for £365,000. We were told in a general way, and that was the only statement that could be made, that this was to provide increased generating capacity to meet the situation that will develop in 1933 and to make provision for 1934. Further, we were told that there had been a comparison made of the different costs of making a new and sounder provision for a combined hydro-electrical unit or fuel provision, or a combination of those, and that there should be a combination of a hydro-electric unit of some type, with extra steam capacity and all the necessary incidental charges to this for increased storage capacity.

I wonder in that connection has any further investigation been made of the possibility of joining up the ordinary storage accommodation which is contemplated at the moment in the hydro-electric development here with the fuel provision made in the North of Ireland in the Belfast steam station. Because undoubtedly it seemed, at one time, that arrangement, if it could be made politically, was going to be of economic advantage, and that if made, it would not mean a transfer of money. It would mean one party getting units in one part of the year and paying them back in another part of the year, and that it would in fact help both parts of the country to achieve a fuller use of the particular capacities they have than what is happening at the moment. There was also the further point made at one time that the increase, whether sufficient or not for the purpose in view I cannot say, could be got by a very small expenditure of money on one of the upper lakes—Lough Ree. I suppose since this has been put up the Board have examined the matter and turned it down in favour of what is now proposed. Passing that, however, it is of immense interest, and to myself an immense source of satisfaction, that Ministers intend keeping up, without any of the opposition that I met with, in terms of the requirements of 250,000,000 units of electricity. When the Shannon Scheme was first talked of we were deemed to be the maddest of optimists because we engineered a scheme which looked forward to the requirements of this country of about 150,000,000 units. It is very gratifying to find that without any great claims, as against the optimism of the statement of the Minister, we are making provision, and not many years ahead, in which he sees there will be a requirement of 250,000,000 units.

A turbine is going to be established at Ardnacrusha at a cost of £220,000, with 30,000 horse power. In addition, there is 20,000 k.w. steam with the attendant boiler capacity, costing £100,000, at the Pigeon House, and some further provision by way of boiler capacity there as well. Is there any impact of the tariff proposals on any of the parts required for the turbine at Ardnacrusha, for the boilers, or for plant at the Pigeon House? Has the Board, in fact, in this year, apart from the installation, by reason of the tariff policy had to pay anything extra for requirements since the new load of tariffs came on? That would be an item which would upset the calculations made in relation to the old prices if there is any considerable sum in which they would be mulcted. I am not sure that I understand what the Minister said with regard to the coffer-dam below the power house. I think he was quite right in doing what he did, when it was made evident to him that time was of the essence of the situation, and that he had to go on immediately with the provision of proper dam arrangements. But he took a roundabout way and if the Board charged its funds with £30,000, which presumably is now going to be repaid, I do not think anyone would have objected if that £30,000 had in fact been spent out of whatever funds the Minister had in hands, as long as there was a fairly speedy explanation to the House of what happened. Clearly circumstances rule some of these things. I understood him to say that there is a coffer-dam being put down at a cost of £30,000, charged on the Electricity Supply Board's funds. He then said that the coffer-dam would be left there to help further installation. Surely the actual coffer-dam will not be left there.

Part of it.

Certain arrangements were made in the first scheme to enable underground preparations to be built up to the dam, but the Minister says that the coffer-dam will be left there. Surely not. Surely there is going to be something in the way of an artificial barrier or pool raised in the river?

Part will be left there.

The underground foundation, carrying on the old policy. That is very much what was previously proposed and I do not think there is any addition. I think that is what the Minister said and that we will have the items which are specifically referred to in the Bill. The House should welcome the fact that the scheme is now shown to be getting out into the open. I always longed for the day when some such stage of development of the Shannon would be reached, when some stage in the Board's equipment, attention to business and efficiency would be reached that one could say: "Very good, there is particular development, generating so many units; there is sale for these units at such an average price and that meets various things which a Board of that type ought to meet year by year." Then we should be told what is left out, and, if anything was left out why it was left out. As far as the Minister spoke of the amount I think we have at any rate come very near that stage, which cannot be reached until after 1933, when sinking fund payments fall upon the Board. It is only when the demand to meet sinking fund begins that they are facing up to future responsibilities in their entirety.

I welcome this expenditure of new money because it means that the Board sees ahead of it another market, has the new power for it, and sees itself selling at the present rate. The expenditure of the money is I think very good. As far as the expenditure of the first £330,000 is concerned it is all to the good. It is very hard to give any estimate on an undertaking of this magnitude but we are very close to the end of the development stage of the original Shannon Scheme. We have in fact gone beyond the original Shannon Scheme as far as capacity is concerned. As to the work that the contractors did, the subsidiary payments to landowners, and the rest, we are within sight of the end, and it is satisfying to be there. As far as the second sum of money is concerned I am all for it. It appears to me to be very good, and to be a very satisfactory thing, that the Board wants to tackle the capacity because they see a market ahead in which they can sell to their own advantage. The Minister has made many comments on the Board and on the accounts. I do not intend to follow him into all the points he mentioned. We are told that the audit of the accounts for 1930-31 will be finished by the end of August, and that the accounts for 1931-32 will be ready by the end of this month and produced in September. That means that when the House next meets we will probably have two sets of accounts before us, and that would be the occasion, to my mind, for a general review of the Board's activities. The Minister in his preamble to whatever remarks he made said that the Board's finances were not yet satisfactory. What one was concerned about was, when all this situation is remedied, and with what speed, what new situation emerged. Thereafter, he made certain statements with regard to deficits. In fairness to the Board, it should be stated that some of these deficits were foreseen. In fact, some of these deficits were definitely a part of the original economics of the scheme. To say that the Board have not made any sinking fund payments is only to say that they have not done something that they were not asked to do and which, in the circumstances of the time, nobody would have dared ask them to do.

We are told that the 1932-3 accounts estimated a surplus of £90,000 but that for the year 1933-4, when sinking fund payments arise for the first time, the surpluses of 1932-3 and 1933-4 will both be required for sinking fund payments falling due in the latter of these two years and that, after that has been paid, there will be £23,000 put to reserve. That is the situation which the Board thought in July of last year they would have been able to reach. It seems to me to be a very good tribute to the estimating capacity of the new Board that their forecasts are being borne out so accurately. They did estimate that, with the increased charges which they thought fit to impose last year, they would find themselves in a position in 1933-4 in which they would be able to meet their sinking fund payments and carry forward something to reserve. They saw that carry-forward to reserve increasing in some small way year by year. They saw that being done while they did make some payment to reserve more or less for a depreciation account. The recital of the figures in that connection is, I think, intended to create a bogey. The recital of the figures about the deficiency in the depreciation account if that depreciation account were ruled by the narrow and rigid interpretation of a particular section of the 1925 Act—I do not think it is worth while speaking about that. To speak about half a million deficit on a particular account at that time is to take things completely outside their proper framework. It was never in the perspective of the Board that in those early years there would be a depreciation account of the type that would have amounted to half a million pounds. There never was, even in the contemplation of the people who made their scheme for them, a depreciation account of that type in the early years. It was hoped that, as years went on, and early enough, they would begin to put aside something. The Minister himself has not indicated his view on one of the matters about which he was so voluble last year. Last year, he would almost have plumped for no depreciation account. The allegation was made that the Board was being too severely pressed, that no Board should be asked, at one and the same time, to amortise its capital and provide for wasting assets—to have a fund built up which would allow for the replacing of those assets when wasted. Yet it could be partly inferred from some of the remarks made by the Minister that he believed the reverse was what should have happened—that they should have been asked to amortise their capital and, at the same time, build up, right from the beginning, a reserve fund to meet all these wasting assets against the time of their disappearance.

I am glad to find the Minister coming out soundly with this statement—that they should be satisfied about the revenue and the continuance of it in a particular way before there would be any alteration attempted in the present policy about charges. While he did save himself by saying that it might be contended that a decrease in rates would provide an increase in consumption, which might more than equalise the decrease, he felt that was worthy of study. I hope he will continue to give it study, and I hope he will continue to allow the Board to be, in the main, the rulers of a situation like that, and the people who will have the burden of responsibility for saying whether or not there should be a decrease or an increase in the charges at any time. That is what they were set up to do. It was essentially one of their functions. It is not a matter the responsibility for which should be taken from them.

The Minister stated that the Board had estimated a 14 per cent. annual increase of consumption. I should like to have that related back to the last year or the year before that. Last year, when the Board did decide to increase charges, there were many wiseheads in the community who thought that that was a bad plan and that it would have been far better at that time to inagurate a new era of decreased charges, leading to such a vast increase of consumption that the revenue would not decline, but increase. The Board at that time made quite a detailed series of calculations bearing on the point of increased consumption—increased consumption under the charges as they were, and increased consumption under the increased charges. They did estimate an increase in consumption, and they did even estimate an increase in the number of consumers after the increase of charges. Consequently, they estimated quite a good increase in revenue. If the Minister has those estimates before him, I would like if he would say whether they have been borne out by the facts or whether the pessimists who said that, if the charges were increased, consumers would drop off and that, apart from that, the annual rate of increase in those that remained would lessen and that for both these reasons there would be a very definite decrease in revenue— whether the pessimists who said this were right. When I had touch last with the Board, their estimates were being borne out. From the way they were heading then, the estimates should have worked out. There had been no falling off in the number of consumers. There had been no falling off in the amount of electricity that those who had attached to themselves to the scheme were taking. It would be worth while to have some statement from the Minister on that so that we would know whether the Board's estimates for the future are likely to be correct or not. Finally, the Minister said—with this I think the House will be in agreement with him —they were now providing generating capacity for what was regarded as the requirements up to the year 1936; prior to that date, he thought, so as to provide for a much later date, there should be expert examination of —this is what I understood him to say—the type of generating capacity. I think that would be wise. It would be following out what was done in the original Shannon Scheme. The original Shannon Scheme was very expertly examined by the firm which put up the proposal firstly, and it was subjected to very detailed expert examination by the four Europeans who were called in to advise on the matter. It was still further examined by laymen and engineers here. Quite clearly, before there is a decision taken to embark upon the last stage of the development of the Shannon, whether, say, the Liffey should be thrown in at that point or whether there should be some better combination of steam and hydro-electric power, is clearly a matter upon which experts should advise.

It would be a new way and I would hope that these experts would advise because one of the functions given to the Board was to advise upon matters relating to electricity in the country and I should imagine that one of the things to which they would turn their attention would be that very matter. What is to happen after 1936? Is there to be another river tapped or is there to be another fuel tapped? That is clearly a matter for the Board. Under the Act as it stands it is for the Board to advise the Government and if necessary to call in further experts to advise them as to what they should do. Possibly the conjunction of these two things and having an expert investigation by the Government would seem to be the plan which would provide the best for the future after 1936. However the money is required and the money is not very considerable in comparison with the moneys previously voted for the scheme. The scheme has advanced far beyond the expectations of anybody at the time it was first instituted. The moneys have been kept under control and the only doubt at the moment is one that will not be resolved until we see the two years' accounts of the Electricity Supply Board. When these accounts come before the House I believe it will be found that the Board will have done very much what was expected of them. The Board are meeting the interest charges; they are prepared to make sinking fund payments and they are to set aside all of the moneys that ought to be set aside, with one exception, that is the item for depreciation. On that matter of depreciation we certainly can get satisfaction from the fact that they will be carrying something to reserve and we can see whether what they are setting aside is sufficient. If we want to see that sum enlarged it will be a matter of getting a fuller electricity development in the country. If we want a decrease then there is the chance of getting reduced prices right away. There is, with each addition to the Shannon Scheme, a prospect of a cheaper development of the scheme because the original scheme even in the small matter of the coffer-dam, as the Minister knows, bore on its back very many of the charges that would not be necessary if the country decided only on having the first scheme. But when the second and third scheme come into being they will reduce relatively the cost of the original scheme and there should be some reason then to hope for a cheapening of electricity in the country. I am in full agreement with this Bill.

Deputy McGilligan gave us the Shannon Scheme. It threw a good deal of light into obscure places, but it created quite a number of shadows and it is in the hope that this piece of legislation will remove the shadows that I am endeavouring to make any contribution to this debate. Since 1925 we had some six pieces of legislation regarding the scheme. I think this is the sixth. Notwithstanding that it was thought necessary to introduce these successive measures, we still find some shadows lying across the Shannon Scheme. Are these shadows going to become permanent? The fault is not altogether with the present administration. The fault to a great extent lies with Deputy McGilligan himself. Anyhow, whereever the fault lies, my object is to try to remove the defects that at present exist. I think that some of these six pieces of legislation introduced here and carried into law might very well have for their object the removal of the distress consequent upon the operation of the Shannon Scheme brought about in the district where the Shannon Scheme operates. I want to refer to such matters as the fishermen disemployed because of the operations of the Shannon Scheme. That still is a shadow lying across the light of the scheme. For the past seven years that shadow has been lying there and nothing has been done. I should like to know from the present administration what they intend to do?

Nothing by this Bill.

Mr. Hogan

Bills can be amended and Deputy McGilligan knows that. Undoubtedly these defects lie upon the administration of this scheme for the past seven years and it is nearly time that some consideration was given to them. We have to consider also the position of lock-keepers who have been disemployed because of the operations of the Shannon Scheme. If they are to go unemployed now surely we ought to try to find out whether something can be done for them. People who have been employed there for forty years have now lost their employment. They are offered a sum of £13 a year to live on. The piece of land which was attached to the house of the lock-keeper has been submerged, the house has been submerged and yet when some of these people ask that the value they were getting from this land and the occupation of the house should be taken into account when compensation is assessed, they are told it cannot be done. That is a matter that might be set right by some piece of legislation introduced here, or perhaps some provision might be introduced in this Bill to increase the compensation payable to these men. There is the question of the submerged land. That question is still hanging fire if you will excuse the mixed metaphor.

It is a pretty good specimen.

Mr. Hogan

The question of the submerged land is still there and has to be dealt with. I should like to know what has been done in the matter of arbitration in connection with this land that these people have not been able to utilise for the past seven years. I notice that there is certain mention of compensation for disturbed fishery rights but there is not one word about disturbed fishery people whose occupation has been destroyed. The powers of the Electricity Supply Board are being extended and it might interest the House and those who are responsible to know that for the past seven or eight years people have been disemployed along the Shannon Scheme from Killaloe to Limerick; the fathers of families have been standing idly by seeing people from Cork, Donegal, Mayo, Kerry and several counties in the entire Free State working at their very doors while they themselves are unemployed. I wonder if this is the manner in which this money is to be utilised now or whether the local people are to stand idly by while people from outside counties are employed. I would appeal to the Minister to see that local labour will be used in the construction of whatever new works are to be carried through there now. I do not want to intervene any further beyond just asking the Minister to give consideration to these points. Possibly the Minister might also consider the grievances that the Clare County Council suffer from through having these buildings derated.

Unfortunately the time we have to devote this evening to this Bill is so short and the amount of public business before the House is so varied that it will not be possible for any Deputy or Minister to do justice to the matter under discussion. I would just like to ask a few questions. First of all I would like to know whether this is a greater development of the Shannon Scheme or whether it is attached up to the original Shannon Scheme? Those of us who took the trouble to follow in all its stages from its inception the whole project have not completely forgotten the experts' report and the different speeches in this House by the Minister who promoted the scheme. We have still in our memory certain details of the scheme.

The original or partial development of the Shannon Scheme at a certain cost was to do a certain thing. The greater development was to be an addition at a small extra cost, and it was not only going to give an increased amount of electricity, but also, in a sense, it was to reduce the over-all cost. Part of the original investment was invested for the purposes of the greater development. I am inclined to say that this is not a greater development of the Shannon Scheme, but rather a patching, or bolstering up, of the original development. So far as the greater development is concerned, I think, from what has been said by the Minister and by Deputy McGilligan, that the greater development of the Shannon Scheme will cease to worry this House at any time.

Deputy McGilligan agrees practically with everything, but he disagrees on one point. He said that possibly there may be an additional charge on some of the material to be used in Ardnacrusha or the Pigeon House because of the tariff policy of the Government. The Deputy who was responsible for spending millions on this scheme is now wondering about the extra expenditure that is going to be charged because of tariffs. I will make him a present of the great point he has discovered. The Deputy said there was a great deal of volubility from certain members on the Government Benches, and he suggested the Minister was one of these. He did not, however, challenge many of the things that were said. I would like to know what is the cost per unit of electricity generated by the Shannon Scheme at the present time. What is the cost going to be as we go along? What is the cost per unit going to be when we have not only the interest charges but also the sinking fund to meet?

In one year alone we have it admitted that the interest charges amounted to £445,000. Does anyone realise what that means per unit generated, not at the moment, but when we reach that great peg on which Deputy McGilligan hung his hat— 2,000,000 units? If we sold every unit of electricity, 2,000,000 units being generated, the interest charges would mean ½d per unit, without taking the sinking fund into consideration at all. The Minister did not segregate the different types of current sold. I would like to know, for instance, what amount of the current sold in the years 1930-31 and 1931-32 was sold for traction and other industrial purposes and at what rates was it sold? To what units of electricity would interest charges, which could not be charged to the units sold for industrial or traction purposes, apply? They were sold, I take it, at very slightly over ½d a unit.

Slightly less.

I stand corrected. I was afraid to be too hard. I find I was too optimistic. We find there were millions of units of electricity generated at the taxpayers' expense sold at less than the interest charges, in order to subsidise private industries which are run for private profit, and not for the State. I am sorry we did not sit late last night, because we are robbed of being able to do justice to this matter. I am not talking now of the loss of £200,000 that was made. We do not know yet what the full loss is going to be. Optimistic Deputy McGilligan accepts all the hopes expressed by the Board—not by the contractors or by the experts, but by the Board. We have got the Board's optimistic hopes as to the future. By 1936 everything is going to be all right; the whole scheme is going to function O.K. I am still the pessimist I was at the beginning about this scheme. Deputy McGilligan talked about some of us estimating that the cost of the Shannon Scheme was going to be £14,000,000 to £17,000,000.

Not going to be— actually.

I said, some years ago, that the scheme would cost £10,000,000 actual cash, not including the cost of the acquired undertakings with compensation. I stand by those figures. If anybody understands what £445,000 per annum in interest means he will realise that it represents capital to the extent of, at least, £8,000,000, not including the three-quarters of a million that we are introducing to-day, on which, also, interest charges will accumulate. I am not sharing the optimism of Deputy McGilligan. I hope when the accounts come up for consideration we will be facilitated in discussing them in a proper business-like manner, so that we will know where we are and where this scheme is going to end.

Deputy McGilligan seemed to think that the remarks of Deputy Hogan could be laughed at. I agree entirely with what Deputy Hogan said. If the points he put forward are not going to be covered by this money I hope some amendment will be submitted that will cover the case he made for the people who are involved. So far as I am concerned I will do everything in my power to secure that the injustice to the people the Deputy referred to will be rectified. I think it is a perfectly scandalous thing that these people are left out. A person who happened to have a piece of land that was interfered with, or who happened to have a house that was blown up, is entitled to compensation; but the unfortunate people who lost the means of providing bread and butter for themselves and their families are not to be entitled to compensation; I do not subscribe to that. I do not believe that the making of adequate provision for the people of whom Deputy Hogan spoke will involve any substantial amount. Provision for the working man usually means that the State is getting something substantial in return. These men merely want the right to live, and they are prepared to pay their share back to the State.

I have no idea as to the figures given to the Minister by the Board in reference to the alternative possibilities of meeting the situation with which they are confronted. I would like to know what will be the additional cost per unit by reason of the installation of the 10,000 kilowatt capacity addition at the Pigeon House. What is to be the extra cost per unit for the installation of the 20,000 kilowatt capacity addition at Ardnacrusha? What will be the alternative generating cost if we do not do anything at Ardnacrusha but try to get 20,000 or 30,000 additional kilowatt capacity at the Pigeon House? If there is nothing else bebehind it other than that we want extra units of electricity, I would prefer to see the Pigeon House working all the year round rather than only occasionally, when we are short of water or when there is a peak demand during some of the winter months. I cannot see any reasonableness, any business acumen or understanding, in spending additional money in the way proposed when there may be practical alternatives that can be carried out at smaller cost. If it were the case that we had to spend money at Ardnacrusha, whether we wanted additional units or not, there would be no help for it, and of course it would have to be done. On the other hand, if by spending additional money there we are going to get extra units, reducing certain costs, or to get these extra units at a lesser cost than under the alternative proposition at the Pigeon House, that would be a reason for it. I should like, however, to have some information as to what these figures mean.

I mentioned before that at present there is roughly ½d. per unit interest charges on every unit of electricity generated by the Shannon Scheme. I think I am safe in saying that 30 per cent. is sold at these traction rates, which are less than the cost of interest alone. If you add, therefore, the overhead costs and the interest charge that is deficient on to the other units, I think you will find that what I said in 1926 is an absolute fact, that the interest charges alone on units sold to the general community, outside those for traction purposes, amount to 1d. per unit. When we come to have a sinking fund, and if the optimistic point of view is that we are going to have no loss in 1933, if we are going to add to the sinking fund charges—I do not know at what rate it is going to be —we are going to find that while before it was possible to generate electricity in this country at roughly .75d. to .98d. per unit, all charges included— labour, importation of fuel, etc.—the State has risked upwards of £10,000,000 to enable it to sell electricity at 1½d. per unit, and I think Deputy McGilligan will have to admit that his achievement is not such that it will be an everlasting memorial to his credit.

There are a lot of "ifs" in that.

The "ifs" are all in what the Deputy has put forward. I am giving actual facts as they face us. I am not saying that there is going to be a loss. I am quoting the "ifs" of Deputy McGilligan, when he was Minister, and the "ifs" repeated by the present Minister, as given by the Board. The "ifs" were all there. The actual facts are that electricity to-day, on interest alone, not counting overhead charges, is costing practically 1d. per unit, and that with the sinking fund charges, outside the electricity sold for traction purposes, electricity will cost the consumer 1½d. for interest charges alone, not counting overhead charges, running costs, or wages. I do not know for how many years the contract made for traction electricity is to run, but I certainly feel that if it binds the Shannon Board to sell the electricity for all time at less than the cost of interest charges alone, it is a thing that will have to be considered.

Reference was made by Deputy McGilligan to the sinking fund charges arising out of the Minister's remarks. You cannot arrange your sinking fund charges on the basis of what you think you are going to be able to pay. Your sinking fund charges must be on a basis which will have relation to the life of your machinery and plant. There must be provision for sinking fund not alone for repayment of capital but for replacement of machinery. If it were possible to do that out of profits, by putting it to reserve, it would be all right. But until you do that, until you have some definite line to go upon, you cannot have sinking fund rates other than those laid down by the experts or the engineers. If the life of the plant is so many years, you must make your sinking fund on that basis for the repayment of the capital.

I do not know what the total cost of the Shannon Scheme is going to be, including the Shannon Board. I hope we shall soon know what the Shannon Scheme actually cost, including the sum mentioned here, and the cost of running it arising out of the setting up of the Shannon Board; what the cost will amount to by way of compensation, with all the complicated circumstances that arise. I want to know when we will cease to have to make payments towards the cost of the Shannon Scheme and all that surrounds it. I do not know what the amounts are going to be, but I hope that some day we will get a list with each item segregated showing us where we stand. Deputy Hogan suggested that the Board were getting larger powers. I hope they are not getting more powers than they had under the previous Government. It is suggested that the Board are going to get wider powers to do certain things or to be allowed to manage as they have been managing in the past. I should like to see their powers restricted.

I understand that the Minister is going to give the House an opportunity of discussing the accounts of the Board in detail when presented in next August or September. In view of the fact that the House is now precluded from giving the detailed attention it should give this matter, in relation to things which have happened in the past and the references made by the Minister, I should like him to answer the set of points put to him by Deputy Hogan. I should also like a definite assurance to the House by the Minister that he will give a proper opportunity of discussing the accounts when presented in every detail, so that we will know something about the position of the Shannon Scheme up to the end of 1931-32. If the accounts are presented in August or September, we should be able to discuss them in October or November. I hope the Minister will give that assurance, because Deputy McGilligan accepts everything, and practically congratulated the Minister on carrying out everything that he would have done if he were the Minister. I want to assure the House and Deputy McGilligan that my opinion of the Shannon Scheme is the same as it was in 1926, and to say that I consider it is shaky from the foundations up.

I must say that the more I listened to what the Minister has to say, and what Deputy McGilligan and other Deputies who spoke afterwards had to say, the more it was borne in upon me what a lesson this discussion should be to the Minister for Industry and Commerce when he talks about setting up Indian meal mills and operating them by the State, and taking over industries, if needs be, and running them by the State. I cannot conceive anything less desirable than the kind of discussion we have had to-day. Deputy Briscoe informed us blandly that this is only a taste of what we will get when he gets down to a full dress discussion of the Shannon Scheme. There is nothing like plain, blunt speaking, and I say that I do not believe there is five per cent. of the Deputies in the House who know a bee from a bull's foot about the Shannon Scheme, and here we are all going through the farce of cross-questioning the responsible Minister on the details of the Shannon Scheme, and discussing coffer-dams and kilowatt values with the Minister frankly leaning over to his officials and asking "what is a k.v.a.?" How could he know, or how could any of us know? We can devote our time to the discussion of the principles of legislation and warn the people, if we believe that the Administration is going off the rails, but how am I to come here or to come before my constituents and say that I am in a position to cross-question Mr. Browne, the Chairman of the Electricity Supply Board, or any of the gentlemen over there who represent the permanent officials of this Department? They have forgotten more about the Shannon Scheme than I will ever know, and they have forgotten more about it than any Deputy sitting in this House, with the exception of Deputy McGilligan and the Minister for Industry and Commerce, will ever know, and yet we proceed with this farce of discussing the finances and a variety of very highly technical matters when it is manifest to anyone listening to the discussion that it is conducted out of the abyss of ignorance in which the House is labouring and must labour and out of the very self-same abyss of ignorance, if I may say so, with great respect, in which the Minister for Industry and Commerce is labouring with regard to other industries he threatens to take over and operate by the State if political circumstances should make it necessary.

I mention that because it throws into clear view, and, I hope, will serve to illuminate the mind of the Minister when he talks about certain remedies he proposes to adopt in certain circumstances. I hope that this particular discussion, and the discussion he will have to endure and groan through next September, when he presents the accounts of the Shannon Board, will serve as a warning to him that unless he wants to go out of his mind, and a large body of the members of the House to go out of their minds with him, he will not take the step of running industry by the State. I do not propose to address myself to the details of the finances or management of the Shannon Scheme. I do not know anything about them. All I do know about the Shannon Scheme is to realise the full scope of my own ignorance of it, and I can only hope that other Deputies will know that much about it, but there are matters arising out of the scheme which I do want to know something about, and there are some matters about which I want to know a little more. I would like the Minister to inform this country some time, because the information was never forthcoming from his predecessor, and, whenever the question was put, there was a pretty sharp answer ready for anybody who put the question, what is the total amount of money that has been spent on capital account in respect of the Shannon Scheme and the distribution system throughout this country that the Shannon Scheme requires for the conveyance of electricity generated at Ardnacrusha to the consumer, and can the Minister form any estimate of what the total sum will eventually be when we are finished spending money on capital account in respect to the Shannon Scheme?

Might I ask Deputy Dillon why, after the castigation he has given to the ignorant members of this House, he proceeds to ask the same ignorant questions himself?

He is following the bad example set.

I am learning that this House is a debating Chamber, the members of which have the thinnest skins I have ever come across. Everybody is on the qui vive for fear somebody else will say something to wound their delicate susceptibilities.

Is Deputy Dillon as thick as he is ignorant?

I was almost going to say that it was solicitude for Deputy Briscoe's feelings that prevented me from enquiring if he was about to qualify for the position of Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, but I thought that that question might be misunderstood. While I admire his adroitness in dealing with this question, I do not pass at all on the Deputy's qualifications for the discussion he under-took.

It is manners to wait until one is asked. I was not asked.

I am afraid the disease is contagious, anyhow.

I would like to get information as to whether the public can ever know the extent of their liability in this matter (1) what has been laid out on capital account on the Shannon Scheme, and (2) can the Minister form any present estimate of what the ultimate liability of the State will be in respect to the scheme. I speak of liability, while I fully recognise that the operation of the Electricity Supply Board will eventually pay all this back, and pay interest on it, and recoup the State for its outlay, but, speaking from ordinary commercial experience—I am fully aware that there may be some special practice in connection with the manufacture of electricity—I do not see why when this scheme was never expected to pay profits, although, of course, it had to pay interest, it should not be expected of it that it should create a depreciation fund, in addition to repaying its capital liabilities, and why it should not have undertaken that burden from the very beginning. Because, so far as I can see, subject always to my ignorance of the management of such complicated and technical enterprises as this is, unless you have a depreciation fund which will replace worn out machinery and installation, at the end of their ordinary life, you will be faced with the very same position as that with which you were faced when you started the scheme. No scheme can be said to be functioning satisfactorily, from a financial point of view, unless we can say that the State is done with and that the State's potential liability in respect of the scheme is finished, and it is only a question of letting the machine operate until its indebtedness is repaid.

Of course, we would expect, as was promised by the then Minister, that when capital expenses were discharged back to the Government, what I will call the profits would be used for the reduction of the rates, but I do not see why a depreciation account should not have been operating from the very beginning, and I do not think anything like equanimity could be maintained by the members of this House until they have an assurance from the Minister that an adequate depreciation fund is in being and being regularly maintained. Deputy McGilligan, who is sometimes difficult to follow when he is making a point, was dealing with Professor Meyer-Peters' award, privately made to him, and he desired to establish it finally in a settlement of this lawsuit. Not only was the most economical settlement made, but a settlement was made with the contractors which was perfectly equitable. He said it was a settlement for £150,000. I think he did better than make a perfectly equitable settlement. He was entitled to make the best settlement he could. The contractors had the Law Courts to go into, if they wished, and I think the Department was perfectly right in making the best settlement they could, and, as a matter of fact, according to Deputy McGilligan, he made a settlement for a sum less than what Professor Meyer-Peters would have thought equitable.

Just about the same sum or very little less.

It was so near as to be almost the same figure. Deputy McGilligan went on to rejoice in the development of the demand to 100,000,000 units without clamour, and rather to decry anybody who had any difficulty about endorsing this scheme with the enthusiasm with which he endorsed it when he put it through. It is quite true that the demand has increased, or that the Department now foresees a consumption of 200,000,000 units, without clamour, but not without confiscation, and not without sacrifice, I believe, in the contracts that the Board make for the sale of electricity.

Deputy McGilligan, who is an expert in all matters appertaining to this scheme, is well aware that it is quite beyond the ability of almost any member of the House to follow him through the exceedingly complicated details of the accounts and the administration of the Shannon Scheme. I think all will agree, whether they admire his operations under this scheme or not, that he knew it inside out. It is perfectly impossible to meet or challenge the statements he makes about his achievements in respect to the Shannon Scheme. It will be also impossible when the present Minister for Industry and Commerce completes his encyclopædic knowledge of the scheme to follow him. He will be producing requisitions for £500,000 and £750,000 and Deputy McGilligan will attack him and the rest of the House will be lost in bewilderment. The Cumann na nGaedheal Deputies will go to the Cumann na nGaedheal Lobby and the Fianna Fáil Deputies will march into the Fianna Fáil Lobby and not a single member of either Party will know what they are going into the Lobby for. I have always admired Deputy McGilligan in his denunciation of people who advocate the running of industries by the State in this country, but I must say that he is the man who is largely responsible for the greatest example, the most extravagant and reckless example of that particular heresy which he is so fond of pillorying himself.

I admit that I am not competent to pass judgment on these matters. All I know is that I want to make this point before I finish. When our people were suffering under conditions which it is very difficult to describe dispassionately, when our people were living in filthy houses under conditions which were unfitted for animals much less human beings, when there was boundless work to be done in housing the poor and in rescuing them from the appalling conditions into which they have been allowed to sink, the Government of this country decided that it was expedient to spend between five and ten million pounds on the Shannon and to pledge the credit of the country for that purpose. What the ultimate outcome of that expenditure will be I do not know. I do not want to decry the Shannon Scheme. I hope it will be a success. The more successful it is the better pleased I shall be. We have it now and it is the duty of every citizen in the State to make the best of it and to help the Government to make the best of it, but I do say this, that I think it was wrong when there were grave social ills to be remedied, which could have been remedied with that money, to embark on this scheme at that time. I think it would have been better if this money had been spent otherwise. It has been spent now and I think the time has come for the Minister to give this Dáil some undertaking as to what is the maximum sum that he would recommend the Dáil to advance for the development of this scheme. It will be poor consolation to us to know of the limit to the ocean in which we have struggled before we shake ourselves and come out dry on the other side, but it will be some consolation to his own followers at least if they know that they have not to troop through the Lobby in voting money for matters which they do not understand and for purposes that they can neither weigh, balance nor judge on.

I understand that agreement was reached to conclude the Electricity Supply Bill in all its stages to-night, to pass the resolution in regard to the tariff on leather and to give the Committee Stage of the Control of Manufactures Bill. It is now after 8.30. It is not the function of the Chair to enforce agreements arrived at between the various Parties, but it is proper for the Chair to point out to Deputies the fact that such agreements have been come to.

May I point out one or two facts in connection with this scheme which I think have been omitted from previous speeches? Deputy Hogan has alluded to certain shadows that have been cast by this measure across certain interests in this country. I think I might be permitted to inform the House that there is one very big shadow which has been thrown on the Cork Electric Tramway-men, who are now out of employment as a result of this particular measure. Some of these men have reached an advanced age——

Does this arise on the Bill?

——without the smallest chance of getting employment.

That matter does not arise on the Bill, in which no provision is made for such compensation.

I quite understand, sir, but the same thing would apply to Deputy Hogan's plea about the fishermen, and I perhaps thought I might not be out of order in alluding to that particular matter. At the same time this particular measure was supposed to confer considerable benefits on agriculture. It has certainly failed in that respect on account of the price of current. The price of light is a thing to which I must draw attention. Quite recently the Cork County Council had an estimate before them for the lighting of the Courthouse. The prices that were quoted by the Electricity Supply Board were twice as much as the estimate for gas and that did not include a very heavy sum for the installation.

I again submit that the Deputy is out of order.

Am I not right in a Vote of this kind in referring to the prices charged for electricity?

This is not a Vote; it is a Bill.

The Government does not regulate the charges.

I have simply drawn attention to these particular matters and I would like at any rate that they would be noted.

I want very little more than to ask a question directly connected with the subject matter of the Bill. I should like either to be corrected or confirmed in the impression which the Minister's account gave me of really the most important matter in the Bill, that is, Section 4. Very briefly I formed the impression that what is proposed is by the expenditure of a comparatively small sum of money to make the stand-by at the Pigeon House so effective that a certain stand-by of the power at Ardnacrusha can be put into general service for the supply of electricity by the remaining sum of money, and that it is not proposed in this Bill to expend any of the money allotted under Section 4 on the actual increase of power at Ardnacrusha.

We are putting in a new turbine at Ardnacrusha.

You are putting in a new turbine but you are not providing fresh power. You are proposing to use the power that is available. You are proposing to use that power usually and generally for the provision of electric current by keeping a larger stand-by available at the Pigeon House.

That is correct.

If that is a correct impression I think it should be made generally known.

By the provision of the additional steam generating unit we make it possible to use a certain amount of the water power which would otherwise have to be retained until so late in the season that it could not be used at all.

Surely that is not so.

We have the power available there. You are proposing by this expenditure to have the Shannon plant available to use that power constantly and in order to be able to do that you are expending that comparatively small sum of money on the stand-by plant at the Pigeon House. I formed that impression and I think it is quite important that it should be generally known and understood. The reason that I want attention drawn to the fact is this, that otherwise criticism might be made very aptly and strongly about the application of this £365,000 to the Ardnacrusha scheme before the inquiry, which I was very glad to hear the Minister say he intended to have. It is of the greatest importance in view of the extraordinary figures given to us by the Minister afterwards and the increase in the demand for electrical supply throughout the country, that we should have that inquiry at the earliest possible date. I venture to express the hope that such an inquiry will be of the widest possible kind as to the best way of providing for the demand which is obviously coming on us—I was going to say, too rapidly, for the good of our electrical schemes.

I would ask the Minister if it would not be true to say that part, at any rate, of the cause of the financial difficulties of the Electricity Supply Board arises from the fact that the transmission costs to Dublin, for example, from Limerick are so high. I hope that this inquiry will consider the whole matter of the provision of supply throughout the State, including perhaps, a go-back and a revision of the scheme proposed by Sir John Griffiths to make use of the Dublin supply, that is, of the power available by the Liffey. I hope the inquiry will be of the widest possible kind in view of the extraordinary demand, and the increasing demand, which is coming year by year. In a matter of this kind, 1936 is a very short time ahead and no time should be lost.

The various points raised during the course of the discussion were mainly of a secondary nature and it will not take long to dispose of them. Deputy McGilligan referred to a proposal that the Shannon Scheme might be linked up with the Six-County scheme and that it would be an assurance against a breakdown in that respect which would save a stand-by plant here. There are certain attractions in that suggestion, and if it were possible to make such an arrangement I can see no reason why, the Executive Council here would not be glad of it. There are obvious difficulties, however, at the present time in negotiating any such arrangement, and the chances of success in the negotiations would, at any rate, be sufficiently small as to make it absolutely out of the question for us to proceed along these lines rather than by taking the necessary steps to provide the generating capacity which we will require next year.

On the general question of storage— that is being investigated at the moment, and undoubtedly some expenditure will arise in the near future in that connection. It may be necessary to lower Lough Ree temporarily for a period of this year, and at a subsequent date to lower it permanently. If that should be the case, however, it would be necessary to come to the Dáil for additional moneys in that connection. No part of the moneys set out in this Bill is provided for this additional storage.

That may happen this year?

It was anticipated that last year it might be necessary temporarily to lower Lough Ree, but the weather turned wet and the necessity did not arise. The same possibility may arise this year, but it is impossible to say at the present time. Next year, however, and certainly the following year, additional storage will have to be provided. It is possible that for a time the additional storage can be procured at a very small expenditure, but subsequent additions to the storage capacity will involve a more considerable outlay. The whole position of storage is being investigated at the moment and no proposals relating to it are now being submitted to the Dáil.

The question of the Killaloe fishermen was raised. I have had their case under consideration and I may say I have been considering their case with a great deal of sympathy. The position, however, has been complicated by the fact that it is very hard to get definite information as to those who are entitled to the description of "Killaloe fishermen" and who have been definitely deprived of their livelihoods as a result of the flooding of the fisheries. Quite a number of names have been mentioned in connection with the matter, and, whatever claims the persons concerned may have had would appear from such information as we have been able to get to be very definitely bogus claims.

Does that include the lock-keeper?

I cannot say. The position is that there is no power under the existing legislation for compensation for these people and if such proposals are to be considered it will be necessary to come to the Dáil to provide the necessary funds. The matter can then be discussed again in the Dáil, but as matters stand at present we have only power to pay compensation where it is clear that certain rights to property have been destroyed.

The query was also made concerning certain other possible compensation claims. The position is that regarding claims for compensation respecting land around the headways, they are going to be subject to arbitration. We are trying to push ahead the necessary negotiations as rapidly as possible, and I can assure the Dáil that no avoidable delay will arise in getting all these matters disposed of as soon as possible.

With regard to certain sums arising out of the Shannon Scheme, the question has been asked whether this Bill represents a further development of the scheme or a patching up of the old scheme. I think that it is quite clear that it must be regarded as a further development—that we are increasing the generating capacity and installing the new turbine referred to.

It is a further development for increasing plant, not power?

It does increase power.

It increases the available power.

It gives more units for sale.

Is there any further development contemplated in the original scheme?

Undoubtedly.

Would this commit the country to a particular line of development, in view of the whole matter being considered by a Committee of Inquiry which the Minister has promised to set up?

It is not intended it should.

In view of this possible line of development would it be possible to use this increased plant at Ardnacrusha?

Yes. Certain information was asked as to the cost per unit of the electricity consumed. I am not able to give that information, but if the Deputy will table a question I will supply it. The question was asked when will payments towards the cost of the scheme stop. In case of any confusion arising out of the meaning of the word "payment" I should like to say that the money provided under this Bill, and previous Acts, and the advances made, are repayable by the Electricity Supply Board and interest is charged upon that repayment. It is expected that the amount provided under Section 2 will be the final payment in respect of matters arising under the Act of 1925. That expectation may not be fulfilled, but as far as we can foresee, at present, this payment will be final. As to the point raised by Deputy Dillon, as to the time when advances in respect of the Shannon Scheme will stop, it is not anticipated that they will ever stop. Year after year there will be additional capital to be provided for development purposes as the consumption of electricity increases. The State is the supplier of electricity and it must be in a position to meet the demand. The Electricity Supply Board anticipates that the further grant amounting to £300,000 will provide for the development anticipated for some time to come.

And surely what the Minister hopes for is that it will go on a long time.

Undoubtedly. There is no reason why it should ever stop.

Considering that at present we have a very low percentage per head of consumption?

I have already said that I do not see why it should ever stop. So far as we can see, the growth will involve an increased annual output. Deputies asked for information as to the cost of the scheme. So far as the finance under various advances goes, it amounts to roughly £10,354,000.

That figure does not include the unexpended balance of the recently voted sum?

It does include the balance.

And the present £750,000?

It includes everything.

It does not include the capital cost of the undertakings taken over from the local authorities.

It includes the annual payments that represent the previous capital.

Therefore it does represent them.

These are the advances under the 1925 and 1927 and various amending Acts, roughly £10,354,000.

There are one or two further questions I should like to ask. The experts made certain recommendations with regard to sinking fund payments. Is that changed in any respect?

Up to the present there has been no deviation from the experts' recommendation?

With regard to depreciation, has any information led the Minister to agree that there should be full depreciation plus amortisation?

No. I have not had yet the opportunity I should like to go through full details of all the questions arising in connection with the Shannon Scheme and the Electricity Supply Board. I hope that will be forthcoming in the near future. Various questions will be discussed when the opportunity, arising in connection with them, occurs.

Has it been discovered that the transmission costs from Limerick to Dublin are higher than was expected and has that had anything to do with the trouble that arose with the Electricity Supply Board?

I have no information about that.

Has not the Minister sufficient touch with the scheme to realise that that would come before him if it was a fact?

I have no recollection of its being raised.

As to limitation of expenditure, could not this House limit expenditure now by saying no more money could be provided and would not the Shannon Scheme be well provided for and run even if that were to happen?

Yes, undoubtedly.

Provided it was supporting itself.

It is supporting itself.

If there was additional capital would there be a likelihood of a reduction in the price of electricity?

I dealt with that. As far as additional capital is concerned advances were made subject to the approval of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, who must be satisfied that the capital will be remunerative.

If there was an increase in the capital would there likely be a reduction of price per unit?

I could not say.

Has the Minister nothing to say about the charges for productive purposes?

I have nothing to do with the charges.

Are they fixed for all time or for a period?

Whom were they fixed by?

The Electricity Supply Board.

They were fixed at a figure less than cost.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.
Top
Share