Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jul 1932

Vol. 43 No. 6

In Committee on Finance. - Vote 56—Industry and Commerce.

Mr. MacEntee

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £365 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1933, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí, agus le hIldeontaisí i gCabhair.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £365 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1933, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee, and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

The amount required by the Supplementary Estimate is £365. It is to cover the travelling and incidental expenses, subsistence allowances, etc., of delegates and technical advisers who attended the conference of the International Labour Organisation, and other meetings in connection, therewith, which were held during the present year. Provision was not made in the Estimates for 1932-33.

Mr. McGilligan

Did the Minister say "to be held"?

Mr. MacEntee

Which were held. Provision was not made in the Estimates for 1932-33 in respect of the delegation to the annual conference of the International Labour Office in Geneva in March last. The new Executive Council decided that delegates should go and, as the service had not been provided for, this Supplementary Estimate is now necessary. The details are:—Travelling expenses and subsistence allowances in respect of four delegates, namely, an employers' representative, a Government representative, an adviser to the workers' representative and a workers' representative, £315. In addition to that there was an entertainment allowance of £50.

Mr. McGilligan

One would have expected more information from the Minister for Finance, who was also Chairman of the Public Accounts Committee. Has this money been spent? The conference is over many months. Those who travelled presumably got their subsistence allowance and if there was any entertainment given for which the sum of £50 was provided that, presumably, has been incurred as an expense. The Government must have known before this delegation started that there was no provision to meet their expenses and that there was no provision to meet this small item of money set aside for entertainment. I think the Minister might have given us some reason why the estimate was not introduced earlier and where, in fact, the money has come from.

Is this a repayment to the Contingency Fund? What has happened? Supposing the Dáil were to refuse to vote this money, how is the State going to be recouped? Surely, from the point of view of a purist financier, there might have been some indication of the fact that the money was spent and that it is now sought, after the event, to recoup the State. The Minister might explain also why it was not possible to take this Vote earlier so as to enable the whole matter to be put in order at a better time. Those are the preliminary points that I desire to raise.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister seems to be waiting for something?

Mr. MacEntee

I am waiting until the discussion develops a bit.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Minister tell us why did the Labour representative require to have an adviser any more than the Government representative or the employers' representative?

Mr. MacEntee

As to why the Labour representative wanted an adviser, I presume it was because he wanted advice.

Mr. Morrissey

Did he get it?

Mr. Dillon

We had to pay for it, anyway.

Mr. MacEntee

I do not know any other reason except that I believe this is the customary delegation that is sent to the International Labour Congress. As to why a Supplementary Estimate has not been already introduced, I may say this is the earliest moment at which it could be introduced. The decision to send the delegation had to be taken when the Dáil was not in session. The time of the Dáil has been fully occupied with Government business since and this matter is submitted to the Dáil at the earliest available opportunity, in accordance with the recommendation of the Public Accounts Committee. I may promise the House and the Deputy that we are not going to follow the bad example set by the previous Government and we will not hold back knowledge on various things from the Dáil even for a year or two. That was the example set by the last Government in relation to certain matters until they were compelled by the Comptroller and Auditor-General and the Public Accounts Committee to submit them to the Dáil.

Mr. McGilligan

If that is to be regarded as an explanation, I think one is entitled to say that the Minister for Finance badly needs an adviser, both as far as manners and finance are concerned.

Mr. MacEntee

He is getting advice now in so far as manners are concerned.

Mr. McGilligan

Yes, he is. The Minister should get better advice than the advice upon which he is relying when he says that this is the customary application. Does the Minister know what was the ordinary delegation that went to Geneva for the International Labour Congress? Does he know whether, as well as the Labour people having an adviser, the employers' people had an adviser? Does he know whether they claim the right to have an adviser on every occasion? Does the Minister know whether it could be said that there was an established practice with regard to the type of delegation sent out? Does the Minister think that it is sufficient for the House, when an item like this is being discussed, to make the statement he has made without previously making an investigation? He cannot possibly have made any investigation when he makes such a statement.

We are told that this is the earliest opportunity upon which the Estimate could be presented. I have asked, and I do not think I have been answered except by way of implication, has the money been spent? I am assuming now that it has been. It would be well to bear that in mind for the future when good finance conduct is being considered. The money has been spent to some extent and the Minister says that this is the earliest available opportunity. What nonsense ! We have had at least four other Supplementary Estimates introduced and they were passed within twenty minutes. Was there an attempt made to get time for an Estimate of this sort? There was an attempt made to get time for other Estimates and the time was granted. The whole speech of the Minister was an attempt to mislead the House.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy knows quite well that that is not so.

Mr. McGilligan

There is no question at all of there being an established practice with regard to delegations which would enable the Minister to answer in the way he answered Deputy Dillon. He has not answered one thing. I am assuming the money has been spent. There was no attempt made to get this Supplementary Estimate brought before the House earlier. It probably was not ready. The Minister might have said that. It takes some little time to get information from Geneva. If it was even the small matter of £50 for entertainment, it would take some time to get the accounts collected. The people out there are not in a hurry in presenting accounts. Presumably the entertainment was given under the auspices of the Irish representative at Geneva. Probably the bill did not come into him until the end of last month. If there is any reason to be given why this matter did not come before the House prior to this it is because the account was not in. The Minister gave a nonsensical reason.

Mr. Morrissey

Can the Minister say what was the procedure adopted in selecting the adviser to the Labour delegate to Geneva? Was the Irish Trade Union Congress asked to appoint an adviser, or was the adviser appointed by the Government? Was the procedure followed in regard to Geneva the same as the procedure followed with regard to the adviser at Ottawa?

Mr. MacEntee

I think Deputy McGilligan's own statement has corroborated mine. This Supplementary Estimate was brought before the House at the earliest opportunity. The Deputy has admitted the difficulties of preparing the Estimate.

Mr. McGilligan

That was not the Minister's reason.

Mr. MacEntee

I said the Estimate was brought before the House at the earliest opportunity.

Mr. McGilligan

And the Minister did not explain why.

Mr. MacEntee

Among other things——

Mr. McGilligan

Not at all.

Mr. MacEntee

This is the first opportunity we have had of submitting it to the House.

Mr. McGilligan

Because the House was so occupied, the Minister said.

Mr. MacEntee

That was one of the reasons. It was certainly occupied with important Government business. Today, when the order of business was before the House, we had this Supplementary Estimate, which was referred to as a comparatively simple matter that might be passed in less than twenty minutes, dangled from the other benches as a great concession that they were allowing us to discuss. It was regarded as a great concession in view of the agreement arrived at. If the Deputy's Party had taken up their usual attitude with regard to this, the Government might have been compelled to hold it over until next session. And then we would be challenged by Deputy McGilligan about the impropriety of our conduct in doing so. As to the manner in which the Labour delegation was chosen, I am not in a position to state from personal knowledge what happened, because I did not happen to be the Minister responsible for the delegation. The delegation was nominated by the Minister for Industry and Commerce. The Minister for Industry and Commerce was responsible for requisitioning funds for sending the delegation to Ottawa.

Mr. Morrissey

That was not my question at all.

Mr. MacEntee

I meant Geneva. I presume that before he selected the workers' representative he consulted the representatives of the workers.

Mr. Morrissey

For Ottawa?

Mr. MacEntee

For Geneva.

Mr. Morrissey

Would the Minister say if the procedure adopted for the adviser at Geneva was the same as the procedure adopted for the adviser at Ottawa?

Mr. MacEntee

That does not arise at all.

Mr. McGilligan

Oh, clearly not. The Minister now has had it extracted from him. The reason I gave was the correct one but it was not his reason. His reason was that so much Government business was occupying the time of the House, and knowing this, no attempt at the preversion of the truth like that should be attempted here and certainly not where such perversion can be so easily exposed. It is clearly that, not because the account was not in.

Mr. MacEntee

Because the Estimate was not ready and this is the first available opportunity.

Mr. McGilligan

That is an attempt to get around an original dishonest, untrue statement—that it is because the House was so occupied with other business—that is what the Minister said and that has been the answer made. That is what we have been told about the method by which the employees' representative was selected. What about the employers' representative? What has the Minister to say about that? If the Minister wants to defend this Estimate he must know something about this matter. This matter is founded upon regulation and it is the function which the Labour people have from their angle insisted on enforcing that the representative must be chosen from the most representative body of employers. The Labour Party have insisted on enforcing that. The agreement has been too that the employers' representative would be chosen from the most representative body of employers. The representative of the employers was not so chosen. He was chosen by an organ which could hardly be so described in any reasoned way. It cannot be said to be mainly representative of the employers and it cannot be said at all to be the most representative body of employers in the State. I would like to know under what procedure that particular man was selected.

Mr. MacDermot

On a point of order, I want to say that I am sometimes bewildered about the different views taken about the effective expressions used here. Is it proper to describe a statement of any Deputy as dishonest and untrue? I might say that perhaps the object might be to describe it as untrue, but why couple untrue and dishonest together?

Mr. Derrig

It all depends on whom it comes from.

Mr. Cleary

I think the expression is of the type always expected from the Deputy who made it. It does not matter much to the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It should not be used.

Mr. MacEntee

I am sorry that I cannot satisfy Deputy McGilligan. His objection is to the manner in which the employers' representative was chosen. The Government came into office on the 9th March. Some time afterwards—I cannot say how long, but possibly a short time afterwards—the attention of the Government was drawn to the fact that for the first time in a number of years it was proposed not to send a delegation in connection with the Annual Conference of the International Labour Office. That was rather significant and characteristic in view of the general attitude of the late Government towards Labour problems and towards the workers generally, that the one kind of item which they had chosen to economise on was this Conference which is, I think, of great interest and of great value to the workers everywhere and not less to the workers of the Free State than elsewhere. We had, during the preceding ten years, jamborees of various sorts at Geneva and elsewhere which, so far as the people were concerned were of little advantage and profit. The International Labour Office does some good, and at any rate whether it does as much good as some people say, the workers of the Free State are in it and are particularly interested in the proceedings of the Annual Conference. That matter accordingly was brought to the notice of the present Government and it was decided to reverse the policy of our predecessors in that matter and to send a delegation. A delegation had to be secured at very short notice and the full consultation which otherwise might have taken place in regard to sending delegations and which should have taken place in regard to sending delegations did not occur for the reason that time did not permit. But the person who went as the employers' representative was chosen after consultation with the Cork Employers' Federation and with the Limerick Employers' Federation. There was only one day available for that consultation. Time did not permit the Dublin Employers to be consulted, but as it was a Dublin employer who went on the delegation and as the Government nomination in this matter was approved of by the employers in the second and third largest cities in the country—in the State at any rate—I cannot see how the Deputy can contend that there was any lack of consultation or that the Government nominee in this connection lacked the confidence of the nationally-minded employers, in the country at any rate. Possibly that is what Deputy McGilligan has in mind—that the person who was sent as an employer's representative did not represent the importing interests in this country.

Mr. Morrissey

On a point of order.

Mr. MacEntee

I hope it will be a point of order.

Mr. Morrissey

Certainly. I submit that it is most undesirable that the personal qualifications or otherwise of any delegate should be discussed in this House. I think it should not be a personal matter.

Mr. MacEntee

Not merely that but the delegate selected was approved of by the only organisation of native manufacturers in the Irish Free State and he does represent, and undoubtedly did represent, the industrial policy of this Government and because he did represent that industrial policy he was fittingly chosen by this Government.

With regard to the question of the workers' representative, I am now in a position to give fuller information to Deputy Morrissey on that point, if he really wants information.

Mr. Morrissey

I asked for it.

Mr. MacEntee

Yes, but the Deputy often asks for what he doesn't want, and he sometimes gets what he asks for.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister often gets what he does not want.

Mr. MacEntee

The workers' representative in this case at any event——

Mr. Morrissey

I did not ask about the workers' representative, sir. The Minister must not have been listening to me.

Mr. MacEntee

What did the Deputy ask about? Was it the employers' representative that Deputy Morrissey was interested in?

Mr. Morrissey

No. I asked the Minister if he would state what procedure had been followed in the selection of the workers' adviser to the workers' representative.

Mr. MacEntee

The workers' representative, at any rate, was nominated by the Trades Union Congress.

Mr. Morrissey

I am delighted to hear it.

Mr. MacEntee

I presume that the adviser nominated was acceptable to him.

Mr. Morrissey

Nominated by whom?

Mr. MacEntee

By the Government.

Mr. Morrissey

Not by the Labour Party and not by the Trades Union Congress.

Mr. MacEntee

Not merely was he acceptable to the workers' representative but he was approved by the Trades Union Congress.

Mr. Morrissey

I asked by whom was he selected.

Mr. MacEntee

He was nominated by the Government.

Mr. Morrissey

The Minister did not know until this minute. He said that he was now in a position to say.

Mr. McGilligan

And he does not know yet.

Mr. Morrissey

He is taking his cue very badly.

Mr. MacEntee

Mr. Morrissey never takes his cue badly.

Mr. Morrissey

That is what is troubling the Minister.

Mr. MacEntee

He can always hear the prompter.

General Mulcahy

Particularly in North Tipperary.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Let us have the Estimate.

Mr. MacEntee

In 1932 but not in 1921.

Mr. Morrissey

In 1932.

Mr. MacEntee

But not in 1920 or 1921.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is an Estimate for 1932-33.

Mr. Morrissey

I will leave that to Tipperary, not to the Minister.

Mr. MacEntee

Coming back to the question, the procedure followed in this year, at any rate, was exactly the same as the procedure in other years when time permitted. The Government always nominates the members of the delegation and submits the names for approval to the organisation which may have been interested in the matter. In this case the workers' representative and the adviser to the workers' representative were nominated by the Government and their names were submitted to the Trades Union Congress, which approved of them.

Mr. Morrissey

The same applied to Ottawa.

Mr. MacEntee

We are not discussing Ottawa.

Mr. Morrissey

I am only asking if the same procedure was followed.

Mr. MacEntee

The procedure followed in regard to the employers' representative was exactly the same as in other years. He was nominated by the Government and his name was submitted to the Federations in Dublin, Cork, and Limerick for approval. Cork and Limerick approved of the Government's nomination. Dublin had not time to consider the nomination and to convey its approval or disapproval before the delegates who had been selected were sent off.

Mr. Dockrell

The Minister said that the employers' representative was nominated by employers in Cork and by an Association of Manufacturers in Dublin. I should like to ask him which he is declaring to win with. Is he going to pin his faith to Cork or Dublin?

Mr. Anthony

Both.

Mr. MacEntee

I did not say that the Dublin Federation approved or disapproved.

Mr. Dockrell

I know you did not. That is just the point.

Mr. Anthony

They will ratify whatever Cork did.

Mr. MacEntee

I am declaring to win with the Federation which approved.

Mr. Dockrell

Have you abandoned the Association of Manufacturers in Dublin?

Mr. MacEntee

No.

Mr. Dockrell

That is just the point.

Mr. Jordan

They will win next time out.

Mr. Dockrell

We are going to see whether they will win this time or not. Is the Minister pinning his faith to the manufacturers here in Dublin? Is he relying on the nomination by them because there are two bodies in Dublin, one, an association of manufacturers which, I understand, nominated him——

Mr. MacEntee

I thought I made it quite clear that the Government nominated him in the first instance, and when time permitted they submitted the nomination to various federations.

Mr. Dockrell

That is the point.

Mr. MacEntee

I should like to make it quite clear that I am not certain that the approval of any one or of all of these organisations is essential.

Mr. Dockrell

You are not saying that.

Mr. MacEntee

It is purely customary.

Mr. Dockrell

The point I wish to make is, having obtained the approval of the Cork body, the Minister mentioned that there was no time to consult a Dublin body of employers. He mentioned that the nominee had been nominated by an association of manufacturers. I think he asserted very vehemently that they had nominated him. The point I wish to make is that I think that association would not come under the terms of a representative body of employers in so much as they contain both employers' and workers' representatives. Apparently the workers' representative was nominated very properly by the Trade Union Congress and the employers' representative was nominated by a mixed body of employers and workers. That is what I wish to bring to the Minister's attention.

Mr. MacEntee

I think the Deputy is under a misapprehension. I have emphasised—possibly over-emphasised —that the representative of the workers and the representative of the employers were nominated in each case by the Government and then submitted for approval. In each case, as I was saying, the members of the delegation were nominated by the Government and where it was necessary their names were submitted for approval to certain organisations representing the employers, on the one hand, in regard to the employers' representative, and representing the workers, on the other hand, in regard to the workers' representative. In no case was the nomination made by any other person except the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

Mr. Coburn

Although this Vote is only for a small amount, I would like to know what advantage will accrue to the Free State as a result of this expenditure of £365. Who inspired it? We have heard a lot about trade unionists. I belong to the old-fashioned type of trade unionists who believed more in work than in talking about work, I do not know whether the trade unionists mentioned by the Minister represented the workers of this country at all, as evidenced by the result of the last General Election. To my mind I think it is waste of money going to Geneva to discuss problems whether they refer to labour or not that are the very negation of the policy that Fianna Fáil advocates. If we are to work out our own salvation, it seems to me altogether against the rules and regulations governing the workers, to ask them to take dictation from any other country. I think it is about time that we here in this little State should look after our own affairs without consulting the workers of other countries. For that reason I am absolutely opposed, not only to the spending of £365, but to the spending of 365 farthings on this International Conference, because I have no confidence in it. In fact I may state honestly that I think that the majority of the members of the Fianna Fáil Party, if they were to give us honestly their minds, would tell us they believe that no use would come from these international conferences as far as industry in this country was concerned. There is no use bluffing or beating about the bush. The country is not interested, as far as the welfare of labour is concerned, in the sending of these delegates to Geneva. The workers of this country, so far as I know, and I have as much experience of them as any man in this House, can look after their own affairs here. In the present economic condition of the country I think it is absolute waste to spend this £365 in sending delegates to discuss matters that can have but very little bearing upon the economic or industrial position of this country at the moment.

Mr. McGilligan

I want to ask what were they discussing? What were the items on the agenda?

Minister for Education (Mr. Derrig)

Deputy Coburn seems to have very little regard for any international conference—

Mr. Coburn

Very little.

Mr. Derrig

That seems extraordinary. There seems to be such a demand for conferences, international or otherwise, at the present moment that I think Deputy Coburn would find himself in a small minority on this matter. Deputy McGilligan wants to know what they were discussing. I am sure they were engaged in as useful discussions as they were in Deputy McGilligan's time, and that the extent and value of the information to be derived from their discussion will be at least equal to what was derived during Deputy McGilligan's administration.

Mr. McGilligan

But the subjects change.

Mr. Derrig

I think Deputy Coburn was quite wrong when he suggested that the present Government by having a strong international outlook are not deeply interested in our great social problems. The fact that despite the Opposition we could force a piece of magnificent legislation through this House, in an hour and a half, is no bad record. Rightly or wrongly, we believe we are tackling these problems in a Christian manner and in a proper manner. There is no contradiction in that, while preserving our international outlook we pursue our national and economic outlook. If we get an opportunity of making these known and spread abroad through the medium of the International Labour Conference at Geneva or elsewhere we shall take every opportunity of doing so. We are aware of the extent of the world conditions, but we have our own social ideals and we are pursuing them in a world that is terribly confused at the present time.

Mr. McGilligan

Will the Minister say what were the items on the agenda this year? We want to know what were the items for the discussion for which it was decided to send delegates to Geneva. We want to know that so that we can get some indication of the value we receive.

Mr. Derrig

The Deputy can put a question on the paper.

Mr. McGilligan

The Minister's idea has been to send delegates to discuss certain items. The Minister for Education, who shows the same mentality in this that he does on other questions, thinks apparently that they discuss the same subjects year after year.

Mr. Derrig

No; I said the information was available.

Mr. McGilligan

And that the Government sent another delegation this year to discuss the same thing. I want to know what they were discussing.

Mr. Derrig

I do not know what each item on the agenda was. I do know that a very important statement, which profoundly influenced the delegates from other countries, was made by one of the Irish delegates. It got publicity and showed that we had standing on a certain matter. I did not see the agenda, and if the Deputy wants information on that he should have raised the point when the Minister for Finance was here.

Mr. McGilligan

No answer is given to the question as to what were the items on the agenda.

Mr. Coburn

I take it we must now pass this Vote for £365 to pay the expenses of the delegates who attended the Conference and who discussed the item of which we have no knowledge.

Mr. Derrig

I would remind Deputy Coburn that Deputy McGilligan knows very well that a full report of these Conferences is always published and will be available in a very short time in the libraries.

Mr. McGilligan

We are asking for the information now.

Mr. S. Jordan

You can vote against this Estimate now if you like.

Question put and agreed to.

Mr. Jordan

Why did you not have the pluck to vote against it?