Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Jul 1932

Vol. 43 No. 6

In Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 49—Science and Art.

Tomás O Deirg

Tairigim:—

Go ndeontar suim bhreise ná raghaidh thar £520 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1933, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí na bhFundúireachtaí Eolaíochta agus Ealadhan i mBaile Atha Cliath, maraon le hlldeontaisí i gCabhair, etc.

That a supplementary sum not exceeding £520 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1933, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Institutions of Science and Art in Dublin, including Sundry Grants-in-Aid, etc.

Toisc nach bhfuil sreath de Staireanna Contae ar fáil, ina mbeadh cur síos ar stair agus ar thír-eolas na comharsanachta i ngach contac faoi leith sa tír, tá cosc á chur le obair Roinn an Oideachais ins na Bun-Scoileanna agus ins na Meán-Scoileanna. Tá an chuid is mó de na leabhra móra a scríobhadh faoi stair na gContae le leith-chéad bliain anuas as cló anois agus ní féidir ach le scoláirí oilte staire teacht ortha i leabharlanna na gCathracha Móra.

Gan bacadh chor ar bith leis an tábhacht atá le Stair na gContae mar adhbhar léighinn is baoghlach nach féidir caingean na Roinne maidir leis an Oideachas do Ghaedhealú do chur 'un cinn ná do leathnú mura mbídh níos mó á dhéanamh le stair agus tíreolas na comharsanachta do theagasc ins na scoileanna.

Dá bhrigh sin tá mé tar éis breathnú isteach sa gceist seo i dtaobh an ghádha atá le sreath de Staireanna Contae d'ullamhú agus tá ceaptha agam anois tosaighe ar an sreath leabhar sin do chur le chéile.

Cuirfear Eagarthóir feiliúnach i mbun na hoibre seo agus post lán-ama bhéas ann. Gheobha sé tuarastail £400 (ar fad) ar a laighead sa mbliain.

Caithfear congabtóir oilte agus luath-scríobhaidhe a bhéas ina chló-scríobhaidhe do thabhairt don Eagarthóir.

Tá socrú á dhéanamh le go dtosóchar ar an obair láithreach agus 'séard tá so meastachán seo de £520 (cúig chéad agus fiche punt) an méid is dócha a h-íocfar mar thuarastal leis an Eagarthóir agus le n-a fhuirinn sa mbliain airgeadais atá anois ann.

Tá socrú faoi leith á dhéanamh le oifig agus troscán oifige agus eile a sholáthar do na daoine a bhéas i mbun na h-oibre seo.

Tá ceaptha na leabhra fhoillsiú trí Oifig an tSoláthair agus 2/6 (leathchoróin) nó 3/- (trí scilleacha) an luach a bhéas ortha. Foillseochar ó 2,000 (dhá mhíle) go 5,000 (cúig mhíle) cóip do gach contae do réir méidhe agus tábhacht an Chontae ó thaobh staire.

Mr. McGilligan

Would the Minister say who is editor?

Mr. Derrig

An tAthair O Flannagán.

Professor Alton

I am in entire sympathy with the idea of preparing these histories but I think the Minister is providing for the work on anything but a liberal scale. I cannot conceive that a sum of £520 will go very far in preparing histories of counties in the Free State. It seems to be a matter that requires considerable knowledge and considerable research and that the work will involve considerable expense. It is not a work that should be undertaken lightly or in a haphazard way. It is a matter that demands the employment of specialists of very peculiar and definite qualifications. I am in complete sympathy with the object but I would deplore any attempt to deal with it in an amateurish or insufficient manner. I should like that something would be done that would be permanent and worthy of the country.

Mr. Anthony

I support Deputy Alton in his plea. I should like to ask the Minister whether he proposes that this £520 should cover the cost of new histories or is it his intention to collate existing ones? We have Twenty-Six Counties to deal with. Will there be a history of each county? Will it mean the production of twenty-six histories? The printing alone would come to over £520. The reason I put the question in regard to the collation of existing histories is that you have very many local histories. In Cork, for instance, you have a history of Bandon and a history of the various townships. These are already in existence. Is it suggested under this proposal that these various histories should be collected or collated and then be published as one volume? In that case the cost would not be quite so much because the material would be at the disposal of the editor.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

I also join in welcoming the publication or collation of such works. I should like the Minister to tell us why, when an editor was being selected, the usual course of selection through the Civil Service Commissioners was not adopted. I take it that this will be a work of permanent utility. It is not a matter that ends to-day, to-morrow, ten years hence or in one hundred years' time. Every care and caution should be taken in regard to the selection of the person put in charge of the work to ensure that he would have the confidence of the best scholars in Ireland and in Europe and that he is a person on whom the confidence of future generations would rest.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Fear sgríobhtha na staire iseadh a bheidh sa chongantóir?

Tomás O Deirg

Ní headh. Raghaidh an fear eagair isteach sa sgéal nuair a bheidh an t-abhar bailithe ag an gcongantóir.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Ní toghfar mar sin sgríobhneóir i gcóir gach conntae; isé an fear eagair a sgriófaidh iad go léir?

Tomás O Deirg

Niltear ach ag tosnú go fóill, agus tógfa sé dhá bhliain déag chun na hoibre do chríochnú.

For the benefit of Deputy Alton and other Deputies I should explain that in the policy of advancing Gaelic ideals and the Irish language, in connection with the development of other subjects through the medium of the Irish language and in connection with the creation of a proper atmosphere in the way of the development of national ideals amongst the pupils, it has been thought wise by the Department to lay special stress on local histories. The local histories that are at present available are very good in many cases but are out of reach. In addition to that there is no suitable history for young people. The idea is to provide such a history and to go through manuscripts such as O'Donovan's and O'Curry's and other manuscripts of that kind and to have an entirely new series of local histories, books which will not run beyond about 200 pages and sell them at a cost of from 2/6 to 3/- each. The idea underlying the present proposal is that we should have an experimental period of two years. I admit that a sum of £500 would not go very far but if I came before the House with the proposal to engage an editor for a period of twelve years it would seem a very long time although I might point out there is already a similar work in hands which will take a period of four years.

I am simply asking for sufficient money in view of the existing financial stringency to enable a beginning to be made. I have every confidence in the editor who has been selected and I think that Irish scholars have confidence in him too. He has shown that he has a good knowledge of this particular work. He has been already working upon it and I am confident that he is particularly fitted to produce works having a proper national tone and peculiarly fitted for Irish pupils. I am not aware that we should approach the Civil Service Commissioners when special work of this kind is being undertaken. I take full responsibility for the selection of the editor and I am quite confident that he is able to perform the duty. He will have the assistance of the primary branch of the Education Office who are specially interested and I think of the authorities of the National Library. I think the work is certain to be a success.

Professor Alton

Does that cover the cost of printing? It seems a small sum.

Mr. Derrig

It does not cover the cost of printing. It is anticipated that a considerable amount of preliminary work by the editor will be necessary. How long that work will take, I am not quite sure. A year will elapse before anything is ready for publication and, possibly, a year and a half.

Mr. G. O'Sullivan

The Minister used two expressions in his reply to which I desire to call his attention. One of these expressions was "strong national outlook," and the other was "national tone." I wonder if the Minister would help us to make up our minds on this Vote by telling us what he means by these expressions?

Mr. M. Hayes

I should like to know what counties it is intended to begin with, if the work is to take twelve years.

Mr. Gorey

Cork.

Mr. Derrig

I have not decided that question yet. In view of the necessity for selling these books and trying to meet our expenses, it is doubtful whether separate volumes will be published for the small counties. A decision, however, has not been reached on that point. I do not know whether it is really necessary to go into the question raised by Deputy O'Sullivan. What I mean by "national tone" is a state of mind that takes Ireland for granted, the writing of the individual being in accord with that state of mind.

Mr. Hayes

The Minister stated that Irish scholars had confidence in the editor whom he has appointed. Is the work to be done in Irish or in English?

Mr. Derrig

In Irish.

Mr. Hayes

The county histories are to be produced in Irish by this gentleman?

Mr. Derrig

Yes. Perhaps I did not make that sufficiently clear. The development of Irish studies in the schools makes it necessary that we should have several subjects taught in that language and that we should have the necessary text-books. I take Irish history and local history to be the subject most closely allied to the Irish language itself. There is no reason, I think, why in a comparatively short space of time the subject of history should not be taught completely in Irish. This is a step in that direction.

Mr. Hayes

I sympathise with the idea of writing local history in Irish, but I suggest that it is a matter of considerable difficulty. The Minister said that Irish scholars were satisfied with the appointment he had made. Is it the intention that the whole preparation of this work in Irish should be left to the editor, or will that part of the Department of Education which edits Irish books be given an opportunity of reading or revising what is to be produced? I have no personal knowledge of the matter, but it is very difficult to find any one individual who combines knowledge of county history with sufficient knowledge of Irish to produce any sort of racy and readable books. The Minister has in his Department a section containing a number of very competent writers of Irish. Is it intended that they should be used at all in this connection, or is it intended that these books should be produced entirely under the authority and in the Irish of the editor?

Mr. Derrig

I intend that the books shall be produced under the direction and supervision of the Primary Education Branch. They are interested in the schools and it should be their duty to see that the books are suitable in every way. There might be no objection to having the books published in English as well as in Irish. As regards the question of co-operating with the editor, the Irish Publication Branch, to which Deputy Hayes has alluded, is there, and I do not see why there should be any difficulty in getting its co-operation if it is necessary. I am not quite clear at present whether it will be necessary, but, if it is, it will certainly be done. I want to make it quite clear that I am going to leave the matter in the hands of the Primary Branch, who will see that the books are proper in every way for the schools.

General Mulcahy

I should like to emphasise the position of certain counties—Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Galway and Donegal, for instance. I think it would be very regrettable, and prejudicial to the whole scheme, if, in these counties, local historical writers, or a group of local historical writers, could not be got to co-operate, so as to have the histories properly written and properly written in Irish. There are in Waterford, Cork, Kerry, Galway and Donegal groups with strong historical interests in very close association with the living language, and I suggest to the Minister that he should see whether in those areas, particularly, a writer could not be found to produce a local history.

Mr. Derrig

There is the trouble, in that connection, that we require a certain uniformity in these books. We require them to be of a type and if we are not going to leave the ultimate responsibility in the hands of the editor, I am afraid that that desirable criterion might not be attained. The editor has no objection whatever, and I have no objection, to discussing matters with Irish writers who have a particular knowledge of local history and getting their collaboration and assistance in making whatever arrangements are necessary. But I think that there is a great scarcity of scholars who have, at the same time, such a literary knowledge of Irish and such a knowledge of local history as would enable them to undertake the whole responsibility. I should be quite prepared to see that proposals put up from local writers were carefully considered. Where there are men of standing available, we shall make an endeavour to obtain their collaboration.

Mr. MacDermot

Might I ask whether the Minister will give instructions that, in these histories, at least as much attention will be given to the arts of peace as to the arts of war and that an attempt will be made to encourage a constructive attitude of mind in our young people rather than merely to nourish old animosities?

Mr. Derrig

Perhaps the broadcasting to schools would meet Deputy MacDermot's desire better than local histories.

Mr. Brasier

Nobody can question the value of such work as is contemplated by the Minister. The research of local historians is very valuable. No doubt, an editor supervising the work generally and collating the information would perform a very useful service, but I think far more valuable information would be obtained from the local historians who have made a special study in their own counties. The work done in that way would be more authoritative than anything that could be done by a central personage collating the information regarding the various counties. There is at present a very valuable publication contemplated by the Tourists' Association. It is really a history of the County and City of Cork. That work has been put in the hands of Professor O'Rahilly. I am sure that a work like that, coming from the hands of a gentleman of standing, will be far more valuable than anything that could be done in the way of central preparation. I feel that you will reduce the value of these works, whether they are printed in Irish or in English, by putting them all in the hands of one man. Local historians in the various counties would be far more competent to deal with them than one man in Dublin.

Question put and agreed to.