I move that Section I stand part of the Bill.
Public Business. - Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Bill, 1933.—Committee Stage.
I take it that we are taking all the stages of this Bill to-day.
I will ask the Dáil to do so.
There are a couple of matters which I should like to raise on this or on one of the subsequent stages. I think as the Minister escaped last year without having any lengthy discussion on the Estimates, he might be willing to answer now one or two questions with regard to the administration of these Acts. In the first place, I notice that we are renewing the old Act which was passed ten years ago and which was subsequently amended. The Army Acts which exist at the present time form a substantial volume which I do not think the Deputies of the Dáil have read very carefully but, looking through them, I am satisfied that a great number of the existing Army Acts are out of date. Of course, ten years ago we had not the benefit of the present Government Party's views in drawing up the Defence Forces Bills and a lot of the existing regulations, both in the Acts themselves and those issued under the Acts, are so much dead matter, having no relation to existing conditions and, perhaps, between now and next year the Minister might set some of his legal and departmental advisers to work to ascertain how far the existing Acts could be revised with a view to the introduction of a comprehensive Act to deal with the Defence Forces next year. For instance, looking through this Act, I notice that there is considerable discrepancy as to the functions of courts martial and the relation of Military Courts to Civil Courts.
I have heard it stated recently by lawyers—what value I am to put on the arguments I do not know—that in a recent case, which is, in fact, still pending, there was not any very clear statement in the Act as to whether the procedure adopted was correct. That officers of the Department of Justice could walk into the barracks of the Minister for Defence and arrest members of the Minister's Defence Forces might be questioned on an interpretation of this Act, and, certainly, if the Department of Justice is to take such steps, I think that the Minister for Defence should be informed and that the arrests of his officers and men in their barracks should not take place without his concurrence and agreement. Generally speaking, the right of soldiers to be tried by court martial should be upheld as far as possible.
In the first Act, I notice that there are many offences which may be tried by courts martial. They are offences mentioned in the Third Schedule of the original Act such as larceny, receiving stolen property and so forth. The Minister I think will agree that it is in the interests of discipline that men who are subject to discipline should, as far as possible, be dealt with by judges who are themselves personally acquainted with the discipline which they have to interpret. That is the first point I should like to impress on the Minister, that he should look through these Acts and see how far they are out of date before this time next year.
With regard to the general administration of his Department which is founded and has its being under the Acts——
I suggest that the Deputy should postpone consideration of the administration of the Department of Defence until the Estimate comes before the House. The Deputy was quite in order in discussing the Acts which the House is asked to continue but it would be better, in order to prevent duplication of debate, to defer detailed discussion of the administration until the Estimates are being debated.
The only point I had in mind was that there was no discussion last year on the Estimate. There is one corps in the Army which has its existence under these Acts, but which is not specifically mentioned in them, and I think that the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Fitzgerald, brought this corps into existence under these Acts by a kind of subterfuge by which members of this corps became members of the Defence Forces for one day and subsequently continued in this particular corps. The legality of it may be questioned, perhaps, and I should like to urge just one point on the Minister in this connection, because his Estimate may not come on until late in the summer, and then it may be too late. I refer to the Officers' Training Corps which was brought into being by this subterfuge I mentioned. Some years ago I asked his predecessor if he would make arrangements to provide that members of the Officers' Training Corps should have the opportunity of devoting themselves to the study of some particular technical section of defence, and the Minister at that time said that that would be done, but in fact, although a scheme was drawn up, nothing has since been heard of it, and although members of the Officers' Training Corps were circularised and asked what particular branch they would like to specialise in, nothing has since taken place. I understand that the great majority of them naturally put down their names for the Air Service, and I think the Minister would be well advised to endeavour to revive the scheme which was proposed by his predecessor, but never carried into effect. I think he would find that it would not be very costly, and certainly it would be a popular thing to do amongst the men. I only mention it now because, if the Estimates do not come on until late in the year, the whole summer season will be lost, and perhaps the Minister might keep that in mind.
I rise to offer a very few observations with regard to this particular Bill. I think that it is about time that this Dáil and the Minister for Defence ceased introducing, year after year, Temporary Provisions Bills with regard to the Army. I think it has been voiced time and again from opposite sides of this House, from the Government side as well as from the Opposition side and the middle Benches of the House, that the time had arrived when something of the nature of a permanent Army Bill should be introduced, and that men serving in the Army, who have adopted the military career as a professional career, should get some security and some stability, and that we should cease to introduce, year after year, the hastily put together Act which was rather hurriedly framed in the year 1922. I am very glad that the Army can now be discussed in this House in an atmosphere free from politics, and that there are no cheap sneers from this or any other side that the Army is his Majesty's Army, and that the Minister is his Majesty's Minister for Defence. I am glad that we have reached a stage in the history of this country when every one of us is prepared to accept the Army as the Army of the Irish people, and as the Irish Army functioning under the Irish Parliament.
There is one question with which I should like the Minister to deal, and that is the question of regulations arising under this Act with regard to the issuing of commissions to members of the forces. I understand that regulations are in existence with regard to the issue of commissions, and that those regulations—I quite see the difficulty—are framed for the Army generally, and that they set out that commissions will only be given to individuals from the Cadet Service of the Army.
I quite agree that those regulations were issued with an eye on the Army generally and with no particular eye on the special services or special corps of the Army—corps that are officered by men carrying diplomas, such as the Army Medical Corps. Occasions have arisen since the Minister assumed office when it was necessary to fill vacancies to the commissioned ranks of the Army Medical Service. I am not arguing for one moment that the general regulations governing commissions in the Army should apply to those special services, for members of a particular profession must of necessity hold those diplomas before they get a commission, but I want—for the information of the House, for the information of the public generally, and particularly for the information of graduates and members of the various universities and licensing bodies of the Irish Free State—to know exactly what is the present machinery for filling vacancies in what I may term the professional ranks of the Army. I want to know if, as applies elsewhere, the vacancies are advertised, and if graduates of the different universities are given an opportunity of applying for vacancies. I want to know if the vacancies in a service which is maintained out of the taxpayers' money, irrespective of political affiliation, are filled purely at the discretion of the Minister, and the avenue is purely open to the Minister's friends whether political or otherwise. I am asking that question. There are University representatives on both sides of the House; there are representatives of taxpayers all around this Assembly; I want to know exactly what regulations govern the filling of commissions in the special corps and services of the Army, and what steps have been taken to advertise those vacancies. If no steps have been taken in the last twelve months to advertise those vacancies I am saying nothing about that, but what steps will be taken in the future to advertise such vacancies and what qualifications are necessary for the filling of them?
How were they filled before?
Is the Minister aware that there is a widespread and growing feeling among the people of Ireland that we do not want any Army, and will he take steps to consider, before he brings the next Bill before the Dáil, the advisability of doing away with the Army as quickly as he can?
There will be more unemployed then.
They could be employed better.
All armies.
In regard to the question as to the renewal of the Act, for the last year the legal branch of the Headquarters Staff has been engaged in drafting a new Act. The only reason that we have this annual Act instead of the new Bill here for discussion is that it would be impossible to get it through the draftsman's office this year. In regard to the case under the Official Secrets Act, everything was done according to law and after consultation. Regarding Deputy O'Higgins's question, commissions have been granted under regulations that had been in force under the Bill we are now discussing. There has been no change.
I further asked the Minister what steps were taken to advertise such vacancies and give graduates with the necessary qualifications an opportunity of applying.
I am just saying that exactly the same steps were taken as were taken heretofore. The Deputy must know what the steps were before.
I did not quite grasp the Minister's answer. I think what the Minister said was that the same steps were taken as were taken heretofore.
Yes.
The steps that were taken heretofore, if I am not incorrectly informed, were to notify the various colleges and examining bodies of the vacancies. I want to ask the Minister, and of course I unreservedly accept the Minister's reply, if in the case of recent vacancies all the universities and examining bodies in An Saorstát were notified of the vacancies. If they were, and applicants were forthcoming as a result, what machinery was established to decide as between the different applicants?
The same steps were taken as heretofore.
Were the various universities and examining bodies informed of the vacancy or vacancies? That is a clear question, open to the answer "yes" or "no."
The Deputy knows——
The Deputy does not know what steps were taken in the last twelve or thirteen months, and the Deputy is asking a question as to whether the universities and examining bodies were notified of the vacancy or vacancies. I want an answer to that question.
Will the Deputy answer me this question? Were the vacancies advertised before?
Everything in its own time. I have addressed a question to the Minister and I want an answer. The Minister said in the hearing of the whole House that similar steps were taken to those previously taken——
I have two points of order to raise. First, is the Deputy in order in raising this matter on this Bill, and secondly, has he permission to make another speech after the Minister has concluded?
The Deputy is in order in discussing Army regulations, though I suggested the advisability of postponing questions of administration until the Estimate is before the House. Secondly, the Deputy is within his rights in demanding an answer to his question, and even to speak again on the matter.
In Committee also.
The House being in Committee.
I am respecting the Ceann Comhairle's ruling with regard to the advisability of postponing the matter, but the question had been asked before I was challenged on any point of order, and the Minister stood up and presumed to answer that question. He answered that question by saying that the procedure as previously adopted had been followed with regard to those recent vacancies. I asked the Minister if the universities and licensing bodies had been notified of those recent vacancies, and I await an answer to that question.
Sections 1 and 2 put and agreed to.
Title put and agreed to.
The Dáil went out of Committee.
Bill reported without amendment.