On this Bill, sir, I submitted an amendment for your consideration.
In Committee On Finance—Money Resolution - School Meals (Gaeltacht) Bill, 1933—Final Stages.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be received for final consideration."
I suggest to the Deputy that it would be better if he postponed the discussion of that matter to the Fifth Stage. On the Report Stage the House reviews the proceedings of the Committee. The Deputy will, on the Fifth Stage, have an opportunity for giving reasons why the Bill should not pass.
On the Committee Stage the Parliamentary Secretary was asked if there was any machinery at his disposal for the inclusion, in the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, for the purposes of the Principal Act and this Bill, of new electoral divisions. That question was put to him because he had reported to the House that the moneys allocated for the provision of school meals had not been spent. That would seem to reflect on the local authorities whose business it was to spend these moneys. I pointed out at the time that the reason the money was not spent was that the districts, which were manifestly Fíor-Ghaeltacht districts, were not included and that, therefore, there was no permission available to the local authorities to provide these school meals in areas that were really Gaeltacht areas within the meaning of the Bill. Accordingly, on the Report Stage, I submitted an amendment which I thought, in view of the permissive character of this Bill, might have been relevant to its contents.
The Chair thought otherwise.
Yes, sir, the Chair thought otherwise. I submitted an amendment for the Report Stage believing, in view of the discussion on the Committee Stage, that it was in order to submit an amendment on that matter since a doubt remained in the minds of the members of the House as to whether these powers were available to the Minister. When it became evident that he had not those powers I suggested that the matter could be raised on the Report Stage. The Chair says that it cannot and, accordingly, I shall raise it on the Fifth Stage.
Question put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
I suggest—in a purely formal way—that the Bill do not pass. My reason is that I do not consider it adequate to the situation. The purpose for which this Bill was brought in was to facilitate the Parliamentary Secretary in directing the expenditure of certain moneys, voted by this House, in a way that would be in close accord with the purposes for which these moneys were voted. The Parliamentary Secretary explained that certain counties actually had not spent their share of the £10,000 allocated to them for the provision of school meals. After a careful perusal of the Principal Act, it became manifest to me that that is a purely permissive Act authorising local authorities to do certain things, which things are the provision of meals for children attending primary schools in certain electoral divisions described in the Schedule to the Principal Act.
I have carefully gone through that Schedule with the Gaeltacht Report before me, and it became manifest to me that a very large number of electoral divisions in the county with which I am most familiar in the Gaeltacht, which are really Gaeltacht divisions are not included in the Schedule to the Principal Act at all. Accordingly I put down an amendment to this Bill, on the Report Stage, bringing a number of new electoral divisions into the category of the Gaeltacht areas for the purposes of the Principal Act and this Bill. Many of these are, in fact, more Irish speaking than those districts already incorporated in the Schedule to the first Act. It was decided by the Chair that owing to the nature of this Bill that amendment was not permissible, that it went outside the scope of the Bill. I suggest, therefore, to the Parliamentary Secretary that he should now review the question of the Schedule to the Principal Act, and introduce a new short Bill, on the lines of my amendment, giving permission to the local authorities in Donegal, Mayo, Galway, Kerry and Cork, and other Gaeltacht counties, to use a wider discretion in the additional electoral divisions there for the provision of school meals. I would invite him, particularly, to give that discretion in such an electoral division as Lough Eske where you have an increase in the Irish-speaking population as between 1911 and 1925.
I think the Minister will find that some electoral divisions, which can boast an increase of that kind, have actually been omitted from the original Schedule. I find one outstanding instance is the electoral division of Straid, Inishowen Rural District, where the Irish-speaking population increased from 36.7 in 1911 to 43.2 in 1925. Yet, that electoral division has not benefited under the Gaeltacht School Meals Act. The same applies to Fanad North and Fanad West. It is unnecessary for me to go through the electoral divisions not dealt with, but I think it is a matter to which the Parliamentary Secretary should direct his mind without delay. If he does, I have very little doubt that the Bill we are now asked to pass, finally, will become unnecessary because every county will be able to spend its allocation, and will look for more. I would be glad if the Parliamentary Secretary would let me know, now, if it is his intention to introduce a short Bill on the lines of the amendment I submitted and which was ruled out of order.
I quite agree as to the difficulty that has arisen within places in the Fior-Ghaeltacht and the Breac-Ghaeltacht. I would ask the Minister, although it is really a little outside the scope of the Bill, if he would, in his remarks later on, state whether in those districts some extension of the School Meals Order could not be carried out, and whether the Minister has compulsory powers to enforce them on boards of health where these boards are not showing any such intention. There are many districts where boards of health are very reluctant to carry out these schemes. Everyone agrees to do so but they do not clearly know if they have power. If the Minister has power I would like if he would put it in operation particularly in the Breac-Ghaeltacht.
It is not the intention of the Government, at the present time, to introduce legislation on the lines suggested by Deputy Dillon. As Deputy Dillon is aware, the sum of £10,000 is made available for the purpose of financing school meals in certain portions of the Gaeltacht scheduled under the Act, in accordance with certain formulæ laid down in the Principal Act as to the number of schools coming within the Order, on the basis of 50 per cent. of the entire expenditure. Deputy Dillon would like to see a good many of the electoral divisions of Donegal included in the scheduled areas. The trouble in Donegal is that the County Council refuses to strike a higher rate than 1½d. in the £. The result is that in the limited area in which the particular meals scheme operates, on the basis of a rate of 1½d. in the £, it is only possible to operate that over a few districts in the area. Obviously if the Order were extended, and if the County Council still refuses to strike a higher rate, then the area that can be operated must be still further reduced. On the other hand, as Deputy Dillon probably knows, a considerable portion of the £10,000 made available out of money provided by the Oireachtas reverts to the Exchequer for the reason that local authorities such as the Donegal County Council do not operate a sufficiently comprehensive scheme to absorb that portion of the £10,000 ear-marked for their particular area. On the other hand, counties like Galway, where school meals are provided all the year round in the scheduled areas, on the basis of the Order, and the proportion of the number of children coming in, are not entitled to a refund of 50 per cent. of the entire expenses. The poundage rate in Donegal, for example, is 1.25 of a penny; in Galway it is 2.52 of a penny. It appeared to the Department that it was more advisable to make he surplus, if Donegal failed to avail of the moneys, available for a county like Galway, which might be in a position to ear-mark 50 per cent. of their expenditure on school meals. If Deputy Dillon could persuade the Donegal County Council to strike a higher rate, and operate a more comprehensive scheme, they might be able to absorb the entire amount of the grant that has been ear-marked for them, and the necessity for this Bill might not arise, but until there is a disposition on the part of the local authorities to raise more funds locally I do not think we can make a case to the Minister for Finance for a larger sum than £10,000. I do not know whether the Deputy first discussed this question with the members of the Donegal County Council, or how they would react to his suggestion to increase the rate, but I do know that they consistently refused and persisted in their refusal to strike a higher rate than 1½d. in the £. I am quite sure that there will always be a certain amount of criticism of and dissatisfaction with any defined area to which the free school meals scheme will apply. Deputy Dillon, of course, is aware that the present Government has no responsibility for the definition of "area" appearing in the Principal Act. Our predecessors in office are responsible for that. Of course I quite realise that they had not the benefit and assistance of Deputy Dillon's advice at that time. It is quite possible that the area might be different if his Party were now introducing that measure for the first time. I would suggest to him that, if he is —as I presume he is—quite serious in his desire to secure a better result from the operation of those free school meals in the Gaeltacht area, he should concentrate first on the local authority in Donegal and see how far he can get their co-operation in operating a more comprehensive scheme.
Might I ask the Minister a question? May I take it that in the event of Donegal striking a rate sufficient to absorb the entire allocation that was made to them originally no part of that money will be taken away for the benefit of Galway now?
Yes.
Question—"That the Bill do now pass"—put and agreed to.
Bill certified as a Money Bill.