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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Feb 1934

Vol. 50 No. 13

Vote 16—Superannuation and Retired Allowances.

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise na raghaidh thar £20,347 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1934, chun Pinsean, Aois-Liúntais Cúitimh, agus Liúntaisí agus Aiscí, Breise agus eile, fé Reachtanna iolardha; Pinsean, Liúntaisí agus Aiscí nách cinn Reachtúla agus a dheon an tAire Airgid; Tuarastail an Dochtúra Réitigh agus corrtháillí do Dhochtúirí, etc. (4 agus 5 Will. 4, c. 24; 22 Vict., c. 26; 50 agus 51 Vict., c. 57; 55 agus 56 Vict., c. 40; 6 Edw. 7, c. 58; 9 Edw. 7. c. 10; 4 agus 5 Geo. 5, c. 86; 7 agus 8 Geo. 5, c. 42; 9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 67; 9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 68; 9 agus 10 Geo. 5, c. 83; 10 agus 11 Geo. 5, c. 36; Uimh 1 de 1922; Uimh. 34 de 1923; Uimh. 7 de 1925; Uimh. 27 de 1926; Uimh. 11 de 1929; Uimh. 36 de 1929; etc.).

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £20,347 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1934, for Pensions, Superannuation, Compensation, and Additional and Other Allowances and Gratuities under sundry Statutes; Extra-Statutory Pensions; Allowances and Gratuities awarded by the Minister for Finance; the Salary of the Medical Referee and Occasional Fees to Doctors, etc. (4 and 5 Will. 4, c. 24; 22 Vict. c. 26; 50 and 51 Vict. c. 67; 55 and 56 Vict. c. 40; 6 Edw. 7, c. 58; 9 Edw. 7, c. 10; 4 and 5 Geo. 5, c. 86; 7 and 8 Geo. 5, c. 86; 7 and 8 Geo. 5, c. 42; 9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 67; 9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 68; 9 and 10 Geo. 5, c. 83; 10 and 11 Geo. 5, c. 36; No. 1 of 1922; No. 34 of 1923; No. 7 of 1925; No. 27 of 1926; No. 11 of 1929; No. 36 of 1929; etc.).

The Supplementary Estimate, in this case, is occasioned by the shortage of provision under sub-heads (B), (C), (J) and (L). The shortage under sub-head (B), as indicated in Part B of the Estimate, is occasioned by the fact that retirements and deaths have been in excess of anticipation. The shortage under sub-head (C) is due to the fact that retirements under Article 10 of the Treaty, of the 6th December, 1921, have also been in excess of anticipation. The shortage under sub-head (J) is due to the fact that additional pensions granted to resigned and dismissed Royal Irish Constabulary, including widows, involved payment of arrears from the 8th August, 1923; and the shortage under sub-head (L) is due to the fact that appropriations-in-aid have been less than anticipated.

Is that all that is to be said in explanation of this Vote?

I think it is all that is necessary.

It is not all that will have to be said. We are asked to vote a sum of £20,347 provided under three heads of extra charge, and one item of optimistic anticipation of appropriations-in-aid. It would be interesting to know under the first sub-head—"additional allowances and gratuities in respect of establishment officers"— how much of the £4,000 was required because retirements have been in excess of anticipation, as opposed to the fact that deaths have been in excess of anticipation. As to the item under sub-head (C), "Compensation allowances under Article 10 of the Treaty of the 6th December, 1921, £13,000," I do not know why the phrase in excess of anticipation should be used there. I do not suppose there was anybody in this House round about May, when the Public Services (Temporary Economies) Bill was going through, who did not believe that the compensation allowances under Article 10 of the Treaty would be greatly increased. When that Bill was under discussion, in so far as any discussion of it was allowed, an amendment was moved to exempt civil servants generally, and, consequently, to exempt transferred officers as that class of civil servants are known. The argument was put forward based upon justice, depending upon the circumstances surrounding the Civil Service as a whole, for exempting the Civil Service generally. It was pointed out that civil servants were on a decreasing scale for years, that their bonus payments had been going down, and that they had a contract. As far as the transferred officers were concerned it was a rigid contract, for the rest of the Service an implied contract which almost made it a rigid, narrow one. It was pointed out that people who came into the Civil Service were people who, in the main, opted for security, and, because they opted for security in their lives decided to accept in the security of the Civil Service less money than what their talents entitled them to believe they would get outside.

It was pointed out that the operation of the Public Services (Temporary Economies) Bill was to break the security civil servants had. The particular argument used, as counter to that, was that the breach was only a small one, and should not matter. Of course, the counter to that again was that once a breach was effected it could be easily widened, and that if a small cut was in operation one year, and the principle of security gone, it was a very much simpler matter, in the second year, to introduce either a continuance of the first cut or else to increase the amount lopped off salaries. The transferred officers argued, not merely was the basis totally different but they pointed out that they would suffer year by year owing to the decreasing bonus. The argument with regard to security and breach of security was as weighty in their case as in the case of the Civil Service body as a whole. It was pointed out that transferred officers had a special case; that they had been guaranteed their rights; guaranteed them under the Treaty, and that although on a certain occasion the Treaty as an appendix to a Constitution Act was being removed, there was a statement made by the President that there was no suggestion or could be no suggestion of a lack of good faith. Deputy Norton, relying on the President's statement, said that the rights of transferred officers, as such, had, in the Transferred Officers (Compensation) Act, 1929, been

"safeguarded in a much more definite fashion by this legislation than they are safeguarded under the ordinary meaning or even by the legal meaning of Article 10 of the Treaty."

We asked the Minister for Education, who was at one time in charge of the measure, if he was prepared to give a guarantee that a particular clause in that Bill would not be used to defeat the transferred officers' right, but he refused to give the assurance. He was questioned whether that meant that the Government had not made up their minds that the attempt would be made on these people, or whether they had made up their minds aggressively to attack these officers, and we got no reply. The Act was passed. The Minister for Finance assured us that all the rights transferred would still remain to them: that these rights would not be infringed in any way, only in the matter of pay, and that, in any event, there was always the Compensation Tribunal to resort to. He also refused to give an assurance that the Public Services (Temporary Economies) Act would not be waved in the face of the Tribunal, as guaranteeing any and every cut. He refused to give an assurance and, in due course, the cuts came, and in due course civil servants applied—some for retirement, and some urged that the cut being made gave them the right to have the added years' provision of the Act of 1929 brought into force by the Treaty operating in their favour. Finally one test case was taken. The financial disadvantage to this country—not by reason of the Public Services (Temporary Economies) Act—is a matter that should be discussed by itself. The disadvantage to this country is—not by reason of the scandalous conduct of the Minister for Finance in relation to these civil servants—also a matter that deserves separate comment. The Minister will, no doubt, remember the Lisney case, where, in order to bring this matter definitely before Judge Davitt's Tribunal, a transferred officer made application to have the Minister decide in relation to him, in either of the alternative ways allowed under the Transferred Officers (Compensation) Act.

Does the conduct of the Minister arise on this Vote?

The Minister delayed——

There is a Vote for the Department of the Minister for Finance.

The Minister finally put in an affidavit which was treated with very scant ceremony. That phrase was not used, but the conduct of the court was such as to show that very little reliance was put on the Minister's sworn statement. The Minister did make a series of excuses in the affidavit, but they were contradictory. Of course, that would not amaze anyone who knows the Minister, but they did appear to amaze the court. The whole correspondence of the Minister with that particular applicant was revealed as the case progressed, and from time to time an astonished judge asked: "Is this suggested?" and immediately a letter of the Minister was turned up to show, not merely was it suggested but written down and put forward as an excuse.

Will the Deputy produce the documents?

The Minister has them.

Will the Deputy produce them in the House?

I am not sure if the Minister has them still, because they are the sort of documents the Minister should destroy.

Ho, ho! Following the example of some Ministers.

If not destroyed, as they were produced in court, their production will help. But destruction is otherwise imminent. The Minister was foolish enough to refer to this correspondence in what I have described as a sworn affidavit, but it was looked upon as fantastic and the thing was scouted out of court. There were questions asked as to the absurd delay, and very pointed comments made as to delay which might amount to a denial of right. There were certain very definite insinuations that a delay amounting to a denial of right had occurred, and it was, more or less, pretty well definitely suggested that it was deliberate. At any rate the case was decided in the applicant's favour. I do not think the Minister tried that game ever again. One shot of that type was enough. He may have other cases still coming. But there was one case distinctly, and if the Minister had succeeded in it, he would certainly have succeeded in denying transferred officers their legal, their Treaty and their international rights. The courts prevented that.

Only for the courts the Minister would have got away with it, and the Minister did not scruple to try to get away with it, and he is in charge of a Department of the State which has control of the whole Civil Service. He expects loyal service from these people, and expects that there is going to be good work done by them. He knows that to get good work out of civil servants they have got not merely to do the work they are being paid for, but that often in the higher grades they have to work long hours after the official hours have ended. He thinks he is going to get that service while he delays them in the achievement of what is due to them in law, and what was given them under the Treaty. That is the most scandalous side of the episode.

There is another side. Honesty turns out to be the best policy, and it would have saved the Minister in this case from the humiliation of a rather public type of criticism—a rather public type of condemnation—and it might have also paid the State. We are now asked to supply £13,000 in a portion of the financial year. Some day we will get the true tale from the Minister, as to how much in the full financial year retirements in excess of anticipation caused by the Minister, and his non-sensical Bill, will amount to. When we get that sum we can make the calculation of what is going to be paid by this country for a number of years, whatever the number that will elapse between the retirement of particular officers and their death. But other men have got to be appointed to do their work, and when you have a big number of men retiring from the Civil Service, there is going to be a loss of good work, which is going to be done by a group of newcomers— no matter how eminent they are— coming into particular ranks at the same time. There is a loss in a second way by getting less efficient work done——

On the contrary.

——by getting less efficient work done, and naturally, in the course of time, if men are going out, and if it is seen in the ordinary course of service that they are going out, steps will have to be taken to get someone else brought to the point of stepping into their shoes. I move to report progress.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again on Friday.
The Dáil adjourned at 10.30.
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