The 28th May. Are you satisfied, or would you like to see it? It reads: Re attached communication from Councillor T. Kelly, T.D.:
"We, the undersigned, beg to report that it is obligatory on the sanitary inspectors to keep records of the bakeries, factories, workshops, work-places and out-workers' residences on their districts. Supervision of same is detailed in their duties. Where cleansing is needed, repairs required, the provision of separate, ventilated and sufficient sanitary accommodation or overcrowding has to be regarded, action is taken. Through co-operation with the inspectors of the Ministry of Industry and Commerce, and upon their reports, improvements are effected. Cases have arisen where workers have been summarily dismissed through attempted enforcement of the sanitary regulations governing factories and workshops. The sanitary staff duly note work-places in what were basement dwellings, but are no longer used for purposes of human habitation. These apartments are of a character where one or a couple of workers may suitably pursue occupations such as boot repairing, furniture making, etc. It is a fact that industrial developments are ensuing through recent legislation. Various types of employment are being created and premises not originally intended for these avocations are being acquired and hurriedly adapted. These are merely multiplications of workshops, etc., which existed under the former British Government. It is the practice, even where prosecutions have to be instituted, to ensure that there is a compliance with the law. Approximately 2,405 of the premises under review have to be kept under regular observation."
That is to say that 2,405 factories and workshops are constantly under supervision by the sanitary staff.
"The school leaving age is 14 after the end of the school term. Mr. Kelly's communication has been submitted to the chief inspectors in the Ministry and Industry Department for their consideration."
I accidentally met one of the superintendents to-day and I said to him, in connection with the report that I have read, would it be possible for young girls or young boys to be employed in these basements in connection with boot repairing or furniture making? He said: "It is not possible. Wherever we found that so we had it stopped at once, necessitating as it did the dismissal of any young person right away." But they have never discovered any young girls being employed in any capacity in basements, workshops or factories which were unfit for their continuance as work places. Every time they discovered anything of the kind the place had either to be renovated thoroughly or else these young people had to cease working there. That shows that there has been actual and constant supervision of all these places. All the reports made by the sanitary staff are submitted to inspectors who act under the Minister's direction.
Now, I come to further complaints regarding the Trade Boards. I am chairman of seven of them. These embrace aerated waters, brush and broom workers, linen and cotton embroidery, shirt-making, sugar confectionery and food preserving, tailoring and tobacco Trade Boards. You will notice that there is no Trade Board in connection with the furniture trade or the packing trade, about which complaints were made by Deputy Norton. In all these Trade Boards the major question discussed is the question, naturally, of wages. Trade Boards are composed of equal representatives of employers and employees. The employees who are on these Trade Boards are representative of the various trades, and are selected and sent there by their trade unions.
I have never yet found any difficulty or ever heard the smallest possible statement made with regard to any antagonism to these particular members of the Boards. Every case was actually discussed in calmness and peace and all questions at variance or any difficulties that existed were discussed in the right atmosphere. Only on two occasions has it been necessary for me to use my casting vote in connection with the wages paid and on both these occasions I gave my casting vote against any reduction in wages. That was because I do not believe, and I never did believe, that it was a sound economic proposition to reduce wages in any trade. I agree entirely with Deputy Norton that a trade that does not pay decent living wages is no good to any country. That was why on the only two occasions on which I had to exercise my casting vote I gave it against reduction of wages. My vote will always be given, as long as I occupy the position I hold, against any reduction in wages. In one or two instances a good case was made for a reduction in working expenses, when it was shown that trade was not as good as one would wish it to be. Nevertheless, it was pointed out that it was not good economy to reduce the workers' wages. Agreement was reached.
In the furniture trade there is no Trade Board established and neither has there been any Trade Board established in the case of the packing trade. Deputy Norton referred to both of these on Thursday last. Here is a Trade Board minute:
"In the case of one of the trades, the Board unanimously decided to specifically investigate the alleged exploitation of juvenile workers, and, after some disagreement as to the actual measures necessary, eventually agreed regarding the formal proposals to be made to prevent such exploitation."
That note does not apply to Dublin nor to any of the trades connected with Dublin on the Trade Boards. Unfortunately, it applies to one of the trades that is fairly extensive in one of the northern counties.
In the case of another Trade Board:
"The Board unanimously decided, on three successive occasions, to fix the actual rates now in operation."
The next note I have is:
"The workers in each trade concerned (except one, in which only unorganised home workers are employed) are represented on the Trade Board by representatives nominated for that purpose by trades unions concerned."
A further note says:
"Before a minimum rate can be fixed or varied by the Trade Board concerned, the Board must issue to each employer in the trade a notice indicating the rate which the Board propose to fix or the variation which they propose to make in an existing rate. Each employer to whom such notice of proposal, which is printed in poster form, issues, is required under penalty to post the notice up in a prominent position in his factory or workshop so that its contents may be ascertainable by his workers. A period of two months is allowed for lodging objections against the proposals before the Board determines whether the proposed rate shall be fixed or the proposed variation shall be made, and the Board is legally required to consider any objections lodged before arriving at their decision to fix or vary."
A further note says:
"No Trade Board has as yet been established for either the packing trade or the furniture manufacturing trade."
In one trade constant attention is given to the question of juvenile workers. That is especially so in the case of the sugar confectionery and food preserving. In that particular trade very great care is taken that the smallest percentage possible that can be allowed of girl workers is allowed.
I do not think that I need take up any further the time of the House in dealing with this matter. I am sorry that Deputy Norton made the case in such strong language, because I humbly submit such language was not justified by the facts. It is well-known in Dublin that a large number of people are now either actually taking small workshops—we can call them factory shops—and many more are looking for sites for these, because of the anxiety to increase industry here, more especially since the Minister's programme has become thoroughly well-known amongst the people, and that we have to become what we were not in the past, an industrial city.
Dublin up to this was, I might say, the great distributing city for all Ireland. It was the city from which foreign goods were distributed. Commercial travellers and representatives of foreign firms were all over the place. Now, owing to the constructive policy of the present Government, we are beginning to make these goods here and, naturally, the people who are thinking of going into the manufacture of these goods are looking around for any sort of place in the beginning in order to make a start. That sort of thing is to be allowed, but there are no such conditions existing in this city as one would imagine from the statements and the speeches made by Deputies on the Opposition. One Deputy on the Opposition was challenged a half a dozen times by the Minister and by Deputy Donnelly to "name one place," but his reply was "Oh, we have Deputy Norton's statement that he gave the information." But Deputy Norton said he gave that information 18 months ago. Now, the information he gave was, I suppose, acted upon. You may take it from me, as a representative of the Dublin Corporation, that we would not allow that state of affairs to exist for five minutes. You may take it from me that our investigations are exhaustive and that there is not a lane nor alley that has not been examined from time to time. We in the Dublin Corporation do our job well.
If there are scandals in connection with workshops it was just as well that the matter was brought up. We will ask the Minister to make a more exhaustive investigation. He is just the man for the job. I believe wholeheartedly in him. If he does find scandals he will deal with them. I will say nothing more about the Minister—he is able to box his own corner— but I do not like statements being made for which there is no foundation. Perhaps Deputy Norton is not altogether responsible. It was, no doubt, his enthusiasm for his work, and probably people are telling him things that when investigated will be found to have no substance. I know the Deputy was only doing what he believed to be his duty. Nevertheless, he should have moderated his language. I do not believe he should bring me at all into the matter. He did not actually mention my name. He said "he is sitting behind me." That is all he said. But, with the usual political propaganda, the newspapers stuck my name into it and then they said "we will get Fianna Fáil into it. We have them. Here we have reports from Dublin City." Deputy Kelly never said a word that day, he never opened his lips, but his name is in here all right as "the man behind me." I am sorry Deputy Norton is not here to-day. I would not like to say a word about him because I know he is a man who is anxious to do his job. If some of these things were true I should like to see them put down. Deputies here may take it from me that every care and attention will be given in this city to protect child labour from being exploited. Unfortunately, the impoverished condition of our people compels them to send their children out to work at a very tender age, if they can get work at all. One of the difficulties of the Minister's job was referred to by Deputy Good the other day. He asked what was to become of the young people who leave school when they come to 14 years of age. Their employment under sweated conditions is not possible; the Labour Party would denounce that state of affairs. What is to become of these young people? Are they to walk the streets and do nothing? That is all the more reason for enthusiastic support of the Minister's policy for encouraging industry here in every shape and form. So long as this industry is going to pay a decent wage and the conditions are as they should be, I am sure we all wish this policy success.
I have occupied the House now for 25 minutes and I think that that is quite long enough. I hope I have made a case in answer to the statements made in this House. I know that I shall not get the publicity that Deputy Norton got, but the Minister will get it for his reply. If I have not said sufficient or if I have left anything out, I am perfectly sure the Minister will supply the deficiency when replying to his critics. I have done my part in this job anyhow.
