asked the Minister for Agriculture if he will state exactly by what method persons to whom cattle export licences are allocated are chosen by the Minister, and if he will state what machinery, if any, is used to ensure a fair distribution of these licences.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Allocation of Cattle Export Licences.
Dr. Ryan
Licences for the export of store cattle, bulls and dry cows are allocated to persons who exported such cattle during the corresponding months in 1933, and then only in proportion to the actual number exported in each case
As regards fat cattle, the licences for January and 25 per cent. of the licences for February were issued to shippers in proportion to their shipments in the corresponding period in 1933. The balance of the licences for February and the licences received for March, April and May were issued direct to feeders in respect of stall-fed cattle based on the number of animals shown ready for marketing as a result of inspections carried out by officers of my Department in February, April and May. For the first fortnight of June, 50 per cent. of the licences available were issued to feeders having stall-fed cattle on hands and 50 per cent. were issued to shippers of fat cattle in proportion to their shipments for the month of June, 1933.
As the allocation of licences for store cattle, bulls and dry cows is based on the export statistics for the corresponding months of 1933, and the licences for fat cattle based on the results of inspections, it may be stated that the licences have been distributed in a fair and equitable manner.
Is it possible to place on the Table of this House the names of those who got the licences and the figures on which the Minister worked in allocating the licences as they have been allocated? Would it be information for the Minister to hear that school teachers, who never fed a beast in their lives, have been handing around licences which they got from the local Fianna Fáil Clubs?
Dr. Ryan
It would.
The Deputy is entitled to ask supplementary questions and not to inform the Minister.
Dr. Ryan
He is overflowing with knowledge.
Arising out of the Minister's reply, in view of the dissatisfaction which the allocation of these licences has caused throughout the country, would the Minister consider the desirability of placing on the Table of the House the information on which he worked in giving those shippers and feeders the licences he has given them; in other words, would he indicate here the numbers shipped by the shippers during the corresponding months last year in respect of which they got licences this year and, in respect of feeders, the number of cattle they had tied up and fattened themselves?
Dr. Ryan
That would not be desirable at all. Many of those traders do not want the public to know what their trade is.
Hear, hear! "John Brown" does not want the public to know how many licences he got this year and the number of cattle he did not export last year.
Dr. Ryan
I am quite prepared to tell the Deputy the number of licences that were issued for cattle bought under the same circumstances as those under which "John Brown" bought cattle. I will give the Deputy the complete numbers, and any other man like "John Brown" who applies will get a licence.
And you compensate him as well as some others.
Dr. Ryan
Perhaps so.
Surely so and that is what we want the country to know.
Dr. Ryan
The complete numbers given to each individual and the basis on which they were given were laid before the Consultative Council, but they are not to be laid before the public.
I am not asking that they be laid before the public. Surely the members of the House who represent the people, and not nominees on a Consultative Council who represent nobody, are entitled to know how those licences are being allocated? Does the Minister refuse to give that information?
Dr. Ryan
The Deputy would know what Fianna Fáil clubs have got licences and the public would know it then.
We do not want frivolity in this matter. We ought to be responsible when we are here.
Dr. Ryan
We should be.
We should be and men on that bench opposite should be responsible. Does the Minister refuse to lay on the Table of the House the information I ask for and which I claim the country and the members of this House are entitled to know?
Dr. Ryan
I do.
Does the Minister refuse to disclose it?
Dr. Ryan
Yes.
Would the Minister say if licences are granted in the case of cattle seized in connection with nonpayment of annuities?
Dr. Ryan
They are.
In all cases?
Dr. Ryan
In all cases in which they are applied for.
Will the Minister say if there were licences granted to shift the cattle sold at Naas over the Border into the Six Counties?
Dr. Ryan
I should require notice of that.
You would want to get notice of that. I will give you the number of the lorry that smuggled them over.
Dr. Ryan
If they were smuggled they do not want licences.
Then the Minister connives at smuggling?
Dr. Ryan
No.
Is that the position?
Dr. Ryan
No, I do not.
I should like to remind the Minister that this granting of licences is causing a good deal of comment and uneasiness through the country, and I think rightly so. The Minister himself, I think, stated here in the House that it was well known that cattle licences were being sold by individuals for as high as £3 or £4 apiece. In those circumstances, is it fair to deprive the producers, or those who sell the cattle, of any share at all of the licences in connection with the shipping of cattle out of this country? I think the Minister must realise that it is not, and that producers or farmers are being badly dealt with. As somebody said, cattle with licences are worth £5 a head more than unlicensed cattle. Here to-day, in answer to the questions that have been put down, the Minister is taking the stand that he will, in future, give no licences to anybody who has cattle to sell, except to the shippers. Probably that means the special friends and supporters of the Fianna Fáil Party.
I wish to give notice that I will raise the matters in those three questions——
The Deputy must single out one definite question to be raised.
Is it possible, Sir, to give the Deputy notice?
We will be giving the Minister and his colleagues notice to quit soon.