Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 May 1935

Vol. 56 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 67—External Affairs.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I beg to move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £53,491 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Gnóthaí Coigríche agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin (Uimh. 16 de 1924).

That a sum not exceeding £53,491 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, and of certain services administered by that Office (No. 16 of 1924).

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £5,086 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1936, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Gnóthaí Coigríche agus Seirbhísí áirithe atá fé riaradh na hOifige sin (Uimh. 16 de 1924).

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £5,086 be granted to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1936, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for External Affairs, and of certain services administered by that Office (No. 16 of 1924).

Mr. Belton

I beg to move: "That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration." The debate that has gone on for the last two days covered to a great extent the same ground that could be covered under this Estimate. In general terms I made the case on the President's Vote that I intended to make on this. Dealing now with this Estimate, I want to dwell more on the points that I raised already and that the President did not reply to in his concluding address. I must say I was very favourably impressed by the President's speech. It was the nearest approach to realities that I have heard in this House for the last one and a-half years, and I hope that we will move further on that road to realities rather than go away from them.

This Department has been responsible for the negotiations that led up to the start of what has come to be known as the economic war. The President did not deal, perhaps, as fully as he might have with the reasons that precipitated the rupture. He cited the case for this country as he and his Government understood it then, but I am afraid that he did not reckon on the cost when he allowed the situation to develop into a rupture between this country and Great Britain with the relative strengths of one to 66. He did not deal with the point I raised, namely, that all the ammunition for the economic war was under the direct control of Great Britain. He allowed an economic conflict to develop here, and the ammunition to fight an economic war is, beyond yea or nay, finance. He allowed this country to be drawn into that scrap with Great Britain controlling our finances, banking, currency and credit.

I would like the President, as Minister for External Affairs, to explain how he could possibly hope for victory in such circumstances. Were the position reversed, were Britain's strength only one to our 66 and if that proportion of strength had weighed in with it, a control of our financial resources, Britain would still win. How does the President reconcile that situation with what appears to be his terribly jealous regard for absolute independence in other directions? Is it of choice that he permits dependence in the only matter in which freedom comes at all—the matter of finance? It was very amusing to hear the Minister for Industry and Commerce yesterday taunting France on the way it was proceeding with its finances.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In the matter of finance is the Minister for External Affairs, as such, responsible to this House?

Mr. Belton

I submit he is responsible to us for his dealings with outsiders. He is responsible to us for the economic war and the negotiations which led up to it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Even on that point I think that the President of the Executive Council would be more responsible for the economic war than the Minister for External Affairs. Certainly, as Minister for External Affairs he is not responsible for the financial system in this country.

Mr. Belton

But, as Minister for External Affairs, before he allowed a situation to develop that lined us up in an economic conflict with another State, surely he should have advised the President as to our economic and financial resources to fight that conflict? I would like to know from the Minister for External Affairs if he advised the President as to our economic strength. I want to emphasise one point and that is that the Minister should give preference to negotiation and conference rather than to arbitration. There is no need to labour the point, but in arbitration, whether we have a chairman of an arbitration board or a court from within or without the British Empire, he is going to be the sole arbiter and we are handing over our whole case to that foreigner, whoever he may be.

If I understood the President rightly a while ago, the whole difference arose on the point whether we would recognise a certain document that the President exhibited here and, if we did, that the British were prepared to consider mitigation of the payments. Now, when the point of difference was so very small, surely there ought to be ways and means found of establishing contact again so as to explore some avenue for a solution of this matter that the President admits is injuring both sides. You have instances of how it is injuring both sides and how both sides wish to settle whatever points they can. There is, for instance, the coal-cattle pact. I do not think the President spoke in glowing terms of that pact. He showed that the substance of that pact was that for a £1,000,000 worth of coal the British would take 150,000 head of cattle. Surely the President knows enough about agriculture to know when cattle were exported to England, if we are to dump them there at the quota price of £7 apiece, you will never, under such conditions, find a millionaire farmer in this country. On the face of it that was not only a bad pact but a ridiculous pact if there is any substance in those figures which we have heard during the previous debate from the Government Benches. There was, of course, a necessity for some such thing to be done, a necessity for this country to have it done. Because of the high tariffs on cattle, particularly because of the tariffs on the older cattle and the relatively small tariffs on the younger cattle we found ourselves with too large a proportion of the older cattle and we wanted to get rid of them.

If there is any substance in the statements made from the Government Benches that 150,000 cattle were to be given for roughly £1,000,000, surely those who indicated that and understood the cattle situation in this country knew that it was the older cattle would go over, the two-year-olds and upwards. I will not labour that very much as the President is tired I am sure after his long address. But while we have his presence in the House I would like to avail a little of the opportunity to deal with his book-keeping. The President made two very important admissions here. He has admitted the larger problem of the economic war. In effect he sees no immediate hope for its solution. It is not developing in any direction which leads to a solution or which leads to any mitigation of what suffering it may be causing in this country. The President has thrown out an appeal to all Parties in this House to co-operate with the Government in helping the country on the road to progress. I wonder does that indicate that he wants to take the whole House and the country into his confidence and let them know the exact situation? If he does he ought to tell the House in what particular regard the British Government had indicated directly to him as representative head of this country any political question beside the economic question on which the dispute arose? I submit, Sir, that while the President in his address hinted at such political questions being dragged in by the British and while he insinuated that those political questions would be conditions precedent to any final solution of the economic dispute, he has not produced any evidence and he has not stated positively that the British have put up any such conditions to him or that any political considerations have been put up to him by the British in connection with this dispute. As far as the President has put the case here this evening—and he put it very soberly and calmly and without any heat and in a way in which he wants everybody to understand it—I did not see in it from beginning to end that the British Government have made any case to him that they want to compromise our political independence or political ideas or that they have introduced politics into this dispute at all. If they have I hope the President will let us know. There is no use in telling us that it was published in the paper that a British statesman said so and so.

When you go into court you have to answer the case that has been put up to you or you have to try and make the case that you have put up to the defendant. Have the British put up any political considerations limiting our national development or the power we have at the present time? Have any such conditions been put forward? I take it that no such political considerations to compromise the position have been introduced. Why the country should be told that they have if in fact they have not is a thing that I cannot understand. The President admitted the very point which I made as to the result of this economic conflict on the economic life of this country. The economic conflict developed through the question of these payments to Britain not being settled. The President on behalf of this country said: "No; we will not pay these moneys." I agree he has a mandate and a clear mandate from the country for taking up that attitude and I am not going to say that he should pay them. But what I want to deal with just now is the repercussion of non-payment on the various sections of the community. Up to a point the President has admitted the case that I have made. Substantially the agricultural population is meeting all Great Britain's payments or, to put it in another way, Great Britain is satisfying her demands by seizing from the agricultural population of this country sufficient of their goods to satisfy her demands.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is not that a matter of general policy and therefore one for the President of the Executive Council and not of the particular policy with reference to External Affairs?

Mr. Belton

It is arising out of the conduct of the negotiations by the Department of External Affairs with the British Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The general policy of the Executive Council should be raised on the Vote for the Office of the President of the Executive Council.

Mr. Belton

I take it that these negotiations were carried on through the Department of External Affairs?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have allowed the Deputy to proceed to a certain extent along that line, but now he is raising the whole question of the merits of the economic war and its repercussions upon various things in this country. That is a matter arising out of the general policy of the Government, and should be raised on the Vote for the Office of the President of the Executive Council.

Mr. Belton

I do not want to go into general policy. I am afraid there is a misunderstanding if you are taking that view. I just want briefly to go over the repercussions of this policy and to point out that its effects are falling on a particular section.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am not concerned with the arguments which the Deputy is making, so far as the rights and wrongs of it are concerned. I am only concerned with the fact that the President, as head of the Executive Council, is responsible for the general policy of the Government and that matters concerning the general policy of the Government should be raised on his Vote. I understand that was done. Now on the Vote for the Department of External Affairs, the general policy of the Government does not arise. It does not fall for discussion on this Vote.

Mr. Belton

Does not the policy of the Department of External Affairs and the result of that policy arise on this Vote?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The result of the general policy of the Government does not arise on this Vote.

Mr. Belton

I submit that this is a matter dealt with by the Department of External Affairs.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In so far as the Department of External Affairs handled it well or badly, I have allowed the Deputy to proceed, but when he proceeds to discuss the repercussions of the general policy of the Government upon the economic war and industries in this country, that, I must rule, has reference to general Government policy.

Mr. Belton

Even though it is arising out of this action of the Department of External Affairs? I only want to deal with it in so far as it can be connected with the Department arising out of the action of the Minister for External Affairs. The need for that Department to get busy in connection with this economic dispute is clearly indicated by the cost of this dispute on certain sections. The fact that it falls on one section has been admitted, but the extent to which it falls on that section has not been clearly admitted. On the President's own Vote, he admitted in principle that the amount levied by the British is taken off one particular section.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is exactly general Government policy. If the Deputy will deal with the way in which the Department for External Affairs handled or mishandled the situation that will be all right. But recapitulating what has been said before on this matter, and recounting again the reactions upon industry in the country is referring to general Government policy.

Mr. Belton

The case I am endeavouring to make is that it was badly handled when it was allowed to develop to the point of rupture and when the forces on either side are so unequal. I am endeavouring to develop that now to show that this Department is hardly fulfilling its obligations to the Government or to the country by allowing that conflict to take its course. I was giving reasons why this Department should get busy and explore every avenue to bring this dispute to an honourable end and to mitigate the suffering caused by it. Because it is neglecting to do that, I am moving that the Vote be referred back. I submit that I am making a case why the Department should be constantly exploring every avenue, both official and unofficial, to get a settlement of this question, as most soundings in matters of this kind are best done unofficially. As, apparently, nothing is being done in that direction, and as the matter is urgent, I was endeavouring to show the repercussions it has had and the urgent need for a settlement because of the festering sores that are breaking out elsewhere. I do not want to deal with general Government policy. We had a good deal of that during the last couple of days— we had it last week and we will have it in a specialised form on the various Estimates. Speaking on the President's Vote, I said that I wanted only to generalise as speeches on that would cover to a large extent the Vote for External Affairs, as the one person was both President and Minister for External Affairs. I did not particularise on that Vote and, with your permission, I should like to do so now. As a matter of fact I, would have done it by now if the Leas-Cheann Comhairle had seen fit to allow me to say one or two things more.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I cannot allow the Deputy to discuss general Government policy on this Vote. If I allowed him to discuss the agricultural industry, another Deputy would want to discuss some other industry; somebody else would want to discuss housing or unemployment, and we would never get to the end of it.

Mr. Belton

Well, Sir, if the unemployment fund or the housing fund were being seized upon by Britain, through the development of this conflict, I submit that a good case could be made for discussing it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to come to the Vote.

Mr. Belton

Do you then, Sir, rule out any reference to the levy that the British are imposing on agriculture in order to recover the moneys withheld and which produced this dispute? I only wanted to say in conclusion—I do not want to discuss policy—that they are collecting them there. The President said that these were being recouped and that that special section had no grievance through this. I agree with that part of the President's case: the net loss they suffered in the first instance——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is no use in the Deputy talking in this fashion. He knows perfectly well that he is endeavouring to discuss what I clearly indicated he could not discuss a few moments ago. He will either have to discuss the Vote or discontinue his statement.

Mr. Belton

I accept the ruling of the Chair, of course, Sir, but since that matter has been ruled out, and I regret it has been ruled out, I should like to hear the President give us an address on this Vote and to indicate if his Department is taking any steps to sound British feeling on this matter. The President has given a very well-reasoned address here, as I said a while ago and, without any passion, put the case before the House, and the country will have it to-morrow. Yet, there does not seem to be any hope before us; it seems that the road before us is dark and that we have to fight on. I should like to know from the President how long he thinks we can fight on, or are we to accept the conditions that exist now as the inevitable conditions, as the ordinary conditions that will rule our economic activities in the future?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to come to the Vote or resume his seat. He will have to do one or the other.

Mr. Belton

Very well Sir, I shall resume my seat.

Mr. MacDermot

This Vote covers a wide field—the whole of our foreign relations. A good deal has happened during the year and we have heard nothing from the Department with regard to our foreign relations. I know that the President must be tired after remaining here all day and it is hardly fair, at this late hour, to expect him to give a detailed statement on the whole matter. I suggest, therefore, that it might be as well to adjourn this matter till next Tuesday, when the President can give an account of his stewardship in this matter, because it is not fair to ask the House to pass this without any comments from the Minister concerned.

The President

As the Deputy is aware, I do not like to curtail discussion, but agreements have been arrived at as to the conduct of business. I agree that if the Deputies want to go over a wide field, it is not fair to expect it to be done at this late hour. I thought that, as this covered the major branch, an opportunity could be taken on the President's Vote to criticise and ask questions. I would be quite prepared, if there is any point the Deputy thinks I should deal with, to give any explanations it is thought I should give. Deputies are aware that conditions abroad are rather disturbed, and they must also be aware that there is very little that I can give them in the way of information as to conditions abroad. Conditions are changing abroad—they are quite alarming at times, as one learns through our Department. I should not like to commit myself to the statement that they have improved recently. It must be admitted that conditions abroad are dark. I think that it was inevitable that such conditions would develop, seeing the condition in which nations were placed after the Great War.

Our position here has been made clear in regard to external matters generally. In so far as we would have any influence, that influence would always be exercised in the interests of peace. As to our disputes with Great Britain, which we are very sorry should exist, we see no way out of them. But in regard to external affairs generally, our position is that, while naturally, we would like to see peace, our influence is naturally very limited. We are not a great Power. Perhaps that is the particular subject Deputy MacDermot wants me to refer to, but, if so, I do not think it would be worth while postponing the debate for that, because there is very little information that I could give the House. Our position is that we could not be brought into active participation in any war against our will. We have definitely stated that we would not allow our country to be used as a base of attack on Britain by a foreign Power and would do our best to defend our own territory. To that extent, a war in Europe might possibly develop into a serious position for us. There is no doubt as to the attitude of the Government and, I am sure, of the country as a whole. We have no interest in European wars. We deplore them, and we think that it should be possible to devise some method by which these matters could be settled and that the League of Nations could be made much more effective for the preservation of world peace than it is at present. But, again, in connection with this matter, I do not think it would be worth while postponing the debate to give any explanation upon it, because there is too little that can be said, and the things the Deputy might be interested in are things that it would not be a matter for us to give our opinions on. As far as we can judge, the position abroad is not bright.

Mr. MacDermot

What I had in mind was a survey of the activities of our representatives abroad in the past year: an account of these activities, and some explanation and justification of the Supplementary Estimate that we are being asked to consider along with this.

The President

Well, with regard to the activities of our representatives abroad, it is always difficult, in the case of diplomatic representatives, to point out what particular value you get back in cash results for their activities. They are all the time engaged in trying to bring about better relations, whether from the trade or political point of view, and in seeing that our interests are attended to. In America, the Consular Department has been particularly valuable because of the great number of our kin who are over there and require advice on matters relating to the interests of their people at home. I could give a list, for instance, of cases where we have been instrumental in securing for our nationals here large sums of money. I think I referred to this on a previous occasion, but the following will illustrate what I mean:

Through the agency of the diplomatic offices in the United States over 100,000 dollars have been distributed directly to beneficiaries in Saorstát Eireann. The amount distributed directly represents only in a small degree the activities of our offices in the United States of America in relation to estate matters. A great deal of work is done in estate cases where the money is transmitted by the administrator to the beneficiaries concerned. The assistance of the Consular Offices is also given in numbers of cases which do not result in the payment of shares to next-of-kin in Saorstát Eireann. During the year 1934-35 the Consular Offices in the United States have dealt with the following estate cases: Boston, 110; Chicago, 113; San Francisco, 110; and New York, 350.

That is indicative of a type of activity which is of considerable interest to our people here. A sum of about £20,000 came to our people here from these sources in the United States during the past year. Deputies, I am sure, will understand that it would be rather difficult to state precisely what benefits we are receiving from our representatives abroad. At the same time, I am sure that nobody on the benches opposite would suggest that we should withdraw our representatives from abroad, or that the money that we are spending on them is not worth while. I have been asked to give some details of the Supplementary Estimate.

This Supplementary Estimate includes provision for the cost of the establishment of a Saorstát Legation in Madrid amounting to £3,220 for the remainder of the financial year. Provision is also made for additional staff in the High Commissioner's Office in London amounting to £1,033. This figure includes a sum to meet the salary and allowances of the officer replacing Dr. Kiernan who has been seconded to the position of Director of Broadcasting here, whose salary has still to be borne on this Vote, and also the sum of £449 to meet the salary of an additional temporary officer in the High Commissioner's Office.

With regard to Spain, we have a Spanish Chargé d'Affaires appointed to this country, and in principle we agreed to establish a Legation in Madrid on the understanding that the Dáil would approve of the necessary supply. The post is being established there because we think that we will benefit in general by extending our representation to that country, and also because of the recent trade development which has taken place and which we hope will extend. The quota for eggs, for instance, with Spain has been doubled, and I am sure that Deputies on the opposite benches will be glad to know that we are extending our market in regard to a product which is got from the homes of the smaller farmers and others in this country.

I do not think that it is necessary to defend this Vote at any length. The question will always arise as to how far we are going to go on this matter of having representatives abroad. Are we to go any farther than we are going at present, and where are we going to stop? I have to confess that there are two or three other places—it would not be appropriate for me to mention them at the moment—in which I think we should have representatives. Deputies will understand that I cannot at the moment take them more fully into my confidence with regard to that matter, but I do think that there are three or four other places in which it would be advisable, and well worth the money, to have representatives. If we had these established, then perhaps we would have gone almost as far as our means would allow us to go. There will always be a difference of opinion between members of the House as to whether we are getting value for this money, as to how far we are to extend the system of having representatives abroad, and so on.

I think that I have fully indicated the policy of the Government in regard to this. We have decided to establish a Legation in Madrid, and, as I have said, if it could be managed I would like to see representatives sent to two or three other places that will probably suggest themselves to Deputies if they think over the matter. We now have representatives in most of the capitals of the Great Powers. It is also clear, I think, that it would be well for us to have representatives in all places where there are large numbers of our people.

Mr. Costello

In some respects a Minister defending the policy of his Department, when putting the Estimate for it before the Dáil, is in much the same position as a barrister holding a brief in court. If a barrister got up in court and made the case that the President has made here on behalf of his Department he would be promptly told by the judge that he had not read his brief. The President has had an arduous day in the Dáil and I sympathise with him, because I realise that it was perhaps unfair to ask him at the end of the day to go into this Estimate and to give the House a detailed account of the activities of the Department of External Affairs. It was in that spirit that Deputy MacDermot suggested to the President that this Estimate should be postponed, but the very fact that it has been put on for debate at the heel of the day shows, to my mind, the attitude which the Government adopts towards this particular Department.

The Vice-President (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

May I interrupt the Deputy for a moment? The Deputy has stated that this Estimate has been brought on at the heel of the day. He is probably not aware that somebody on the front Opposition bench arranged with the Chief Whip of the Government Party that all these Votes would be taken before 6 o'clock to-day.

General Mulcahy

Nonsense.

The Vice-President

That was the arrangement yesterday, and late last night a change was made and it was arranged that all these Estimates would be taken about 7.30 this evening.

Mr. Costello

I want to assure the Vice-President that I am entirely disinterested in the question of the arrangements made.

General Mulcahy rose.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If Deputy Mulcahy wants to reply to the statement made by the Vice-President I will allow him to do so.

General Mulcahy

The Vice-President, I think, can easily find out that he has been completely misinformed. There is a great difference between the hopes that the Government Whip may have and the carrying out of business in the House without agreement. An agreement is an instrument that can be reduced to words, and there was no such agreement. There were hopes expressed.

The Vice-President

May I say——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That closes the matter. Deputy Costello.

Mr. Costello

If the Vice-President wishes to speak I am prepared to give way.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have any further discussion on that. If the Vice-President were to speak again, then we would have another reply from Deputy Mulcahy. Deputy Costello.

Mr. Costello

The point I am making does not depend on whether or not there was agreement that the Vote should be taken. The point I am making is that the Department of External Affairs appears to be, in the view of the Government and in the view of the Government Party generally, judging by the fact that there are only five or six members of that Party in the House now——

The Vice-President

The Deputy cannot boast a lot either. There were two Deputies on your side of the House during the greater part of the day.

Mr. Costello

By the time I am finished, there may be fewer.

The Vice-President

You will be left alone, as usual.

Mr. Costello

The Department of External Affairs, in the view of the Government, and even of the Vice-President, who takes periodic trips abroad, appears to be what I referred to last year as the Cinderella of Departments.

The Vice-President

Refer to your own leader, who has just come back from abroad.

Mr. Costello

If the Vice-President wants to take me up on that, Deputy Cosgrave is interested in external affairs as I am interested in external affairs and as a number of Deputies of the Opposition are interested in external affairs. I want to know something about the Department, its activities, the position of our representatives abroad, and what is happening in Europe and abroad generally. I submit, with great respect, that the House is entitled to know from the Minister for External Affairs what our relations are with the various countries abroad and what our representatives know about what is happening abroad, in so far as it is expedient or proper in the public interest to disclose that information. We are vouchsafed no information. We got some very pious platitudes from the Minister for External Affairs in reply to the appeal by Deputy MacDermot. We were told that things were dark and gloomy in Europe and that we would use our influence—in parenthesis, the President stated that we have very little influence—to see that there would be no war. He said that we were always in favour of peace and made use of other pious aspirations and hopes of that kind. I pressed last year, I am pressing this year, and I shall continue to press as long as I am on this side of the House, that the Department of External Affairs should be taken seriously. One of the reasons it is not being taken seriously is that Deputy Corry, who is listening intently now, when he was on this side of the House lost no opportunity of decrying the work of that Department and suggesting that it was a waste of money to send representatives abroad. I want to interest people in external affairs. I think the people's representatives in this House should take more interest in the Department of External Affairs and that they should get a better lead from the Minister than they got last year and than, apparently they are going to get this year. One of the reasons I advanced last year for fostering a greater interest in external affairs is that we are becoming far too insular and are turning more and more into ourselves. If we took a little more interest than we do take in our position as a member of the family of nations and in relation to other countries' problems, we should be able to see our own problems in proper perspective. Deputy Corry guffaws. The guffaw of Deputy Corry represents the attitude of the Government Party and, I think, of the Minister for External Affairs, to that Department.

Mr. Corry

You are a joke.

Mr. Costello

I hope I am a good joke. Whether I appear to be a joke or not, I am quite serious in what I say.

Mr. Corry

You do not look it.

Mr. Costello

Apparently the members of the Government consider the Department of External Affairs a joke. When the Government was formed in 1932, one would have thought that the fact that the first Minister in the Government considered it proper to undertake responsibility for external affairs indicated the attitude of the Government towards this particular Department. However, it is now to be regarded as a Department whose Vote is to be rushed through immediately after the Vote for the President's Department and whose policy is to be discussed, not in its own context and on its own Estimate, but casually on the Estimate for the President's Department.

The President

Would not the Deputy deal with these problems now, so that we can discuss them?

Mr. Costello

Why should I? May I answer the Deputy's question in the manner in which an Irishman is supposed to answer—by putting another question? Why did not the President tell us something about his Department? It was obvious to anybody that he had not read his brief.

Mr. Corry

You have a bad brief.

Mr. Costello

He gave us no account of the activities of his Department. A sum of about £90,000 is being spent on the Department. I do not grudge a single penny of that money to this Department. I think that there is not enough being spent on the Department of External Affairs. When I make this protest, I make it in all sincerity and not by way of criticism of the expenditure. In so far as there is any criticism of the Department, it is that they are not spending enough, that they are not using the Department as it should be used. It is being treated as the Cinderella of Departments. The President, as Minister for External Affairs, has not given the House any real account of the activities of the Department during the past 12 months. He has given us merely a few pious platitudes. Those of us who take an interest in international matters and in foreign relations—and there are a considerable number interested in these matters—are entitled to protest against this treatment of the Vote.

The President

Why not put the questions?

Mr. Costello

We are entitled to know what information is at the disposal of the President's Department. The President has interrupted on numerous occasions. Why not answer the questions which have been put? Am I to have a sort of busman's holiday as cross-examiner here? Am I to cross-examine the President on this question and that? The cross-examination would take about one and a half hours. I submit that it is the duty of the President, as Minister for External Affairs, to give us some account of the activities of his Department and of our various representatives abroad. We do not ask, and nobody with any knowledge of external affairs would ask, the President, as Minister for External Affairs, to measure out in £ s. d. what this country gets by way of pecuniary or material advantage from our representation abroad. That would be an absurdity. We are in favour of having as many representatives abroad as the finances of the State will permit. I should have liked the President to have told us what are the three or four countries to which he proposes to send representatives if the finances of the State allow and if circumstances permit. I cannot say at the moment what these countries are. It would be the merest guesswork on my part if I were to hazard an opinion as to what countries these are. I assume that the President has good reasons for not telling us what these countries are to which he hopes to send representatives in a short time. He had put down a Supplementary Estimate for a pretty large figure for a representative in Madrid. While we do not object to sending a representative to Spain, I think we are entitled to be told the reasons which actuated the President, as Minister for External Affairs, in selecting Madrid rather than the three or four other places he referred to, but did not mention.

I should like to repeat a question I put last year. Has any progress been made, or is it the intention of the President to send representatives to the other members of the British Commonwealth of Nations? That is a matter upon which I feel we should make progress, by sending representatives to Canada, and South Africa, if not to Australia. We have certainly a considerable community of interest with that great nation, Canada. We ought to have a representative in Canada of the same status as our representatives in Paris and Washington. I asked last year if there was any thought of such a move, or of taking steps in that direction. As far as we know nothing has been done since. I should like to know now if the President or his Department have any policy in connection with that matter. We have a good deal of talk about going into the Empire and staying in the Empire. We are in the British Commonwealth of Nations, and apparently there is no sign that we are going out of it. If we are in, let us have, as undoubtedly we are entitled to have, some relations with the other sovereign States that form the British Commonwealth of Nations. We have some real community of interest with a great nation like Canada, a country which is comparatively as adjacent to us as America. We have representatives in America, so that there are many grounds for being represented at Ottawa, as well as at Washington. Perhaps we have more of our kith and kin scattered throughout the United States, but we have interests with Canada which could be developed. I do not know what the relations between the Canadian nation and this country have been since the present Government began to mismanage affairs here, but I know that while we were in charge of the Government, this country had no greater friend and no greater admirer than the great Canadian nation. Have we harnessed that friendship? What steps have we taken to make still more fast the friendship that undoubtedly existed between the Canadian nation and ourselves?

South Africa has many interests analogous to ours. In South Africa there are men in charge who fought as bitterly against the British as the people of this country did, men who had as implacable a hatred of British rule, and even of the British people as some of our people had. They have become reconciled and have adopted whole-heartedly their position as a sovereign state in the Commonwealth of Nations. We had their sympathy, their friendship and their understanding. Some members of the last Government here did a considerable part in educating the people of South Africa as to their rights and privileges and we have their affection, their loyalty and esteem. How do we stand with that country now? Have we any touch with it at all, or as would appear from the President's attitude in relation to this Department, do we stand here in isolation, practically isolated from all the countries of the world, having a dispute with our nearest neighbour, and with no apparent relations with Canada or South Africa, which were such staunch friends? Have we any connection whatever with any of the great countries abroad? Do we stand here thinking only of our own problems, which are big and vital problems to us, but which in the general scheme of the things in the world to-day are very petty problems indeed? Are we going to stand as an isolated country, forgotten by everyone, or are we going as an international unit to help to maintain peace? How has the President's Department advanced our prestige in the last 12 months? These are matters we are entitled to know from the President as Minister for External Affairs. We hear a lot of talk about a republic. If we had a republic this Department would deal with the External Affairs of the republic or with foreign affairs or whatever it would be called. Would we have a Minister standing up in the Dáil telling the people that we are only a small State, that we have no influence on the Continent; and that if we had, as things look black, we would throw it on the side of peace in Europe? Are we to let them go on without exercising any influence?

The individuality of the nation expresses itself through the Department of External Affairs. It expresses its independence and nationhood, even with the status it has, through that Department. If we were a republic or whatever you like to call it, if we were a State completely free, independent and isolated, we would still express that individuality as a nation through this Department. Are we to have silence as to policy, presumably because people like Deputy Corry, people who have no interests but material interests, cannot find out how much money comes here in return for the few pounds that are spent on maintaining Ministers abroad? There are other interests which are above material interests both for great and small nations. As to the President's statement, that we are only a small State, with no influence, we would have tremendous influence for peace and against war, and we could affect, in accordance with our own desires, the foreign policy that is being put into operation in Europe, if we wished to exert ourselves, by the Minister for External Affairs taking the fullest advantage of our position as an independent member of the British Commonwealth of Nations. We could affect the foreign policy of Great Britain, and that foreign policy could very seriously affect grave events in Europe. As an independent member of the British Commonwealth of Nations we have a right to be consulted and we have a right to co-operate in the foreign policy of the Commonwealth. The real way to influence that policy is through the Department of External Affairs and its Minister.

However much we might wish it we cannot stand isolated from any catastrophe that may overtake the world. There is an authoritative way to do that. We are bound to be affected seriously and to be prejudiced by any catastrophe, and I suggest that it is the duty of the Minister to use the undoubted influence we would have as a member of the British Commonwealth of Nations, entitled to be consulted by Great Britain in relation to the foreign policy of the British Government. For anything we know there are despatches —secret despatches of course—and a certain amount of information on matters affecting the peace of the world. The President through despatches that come from the British Foreign Office knows a considerable amount that cannot be disclosed to this House. Some he could disclose. He knows what is going on. He knows the policy that is being pursued, a policy that he has an opportunity of influencing through membership of the British Commonwealth of Nations. While we are in the Commonwealth I suggest that we should use that influence. It is a tremendous influence. While we stay in the Commonwealth of Nations let us take the fullest advantage of our position. If the President consults with representatives abroad he will learn, I am sure, that if we wish to influence foreign policy, and if we wish to play any proper role in connection with world affairs, we can do it very effectively through our position as an independent member of the British Commonwealth of Nations.

It is well known that representatives of the Irish Free State loyally honoured their bond as members of the British Commonwealth of Nations while maintaining in every respect their independence of thought and action, on the basis that they were in the Commonweath on a basis of full and free cooperation, the nature and the extent of which was measured by themselves and by themselves alone, without any pressure or influence being brought to bear upon them by any Government in the Commonwealth of Nations or elsewhere. We could by the exercise of that very influence, by our very independence of thought and action, have become a power in European diplomacy and European politics if our status were properly appreciated and our opportunities properly grasped. The very fact that we had the reputation, as we had the reputation, of being independent in our thought and in our action, in connection with all matters relating to foreign affairs, in itself made us a factor in European diplomacy and European politics. I should like to know what advantage the President has taken of that position in his character as Minister for External Affairs in the last 12 months or has he completely ignored his role as Minister for External Affairs? It would seem to me that that is the position the House is faced with at the present moment. I think we are entitled to protest when an endeavour was made to rush this Estimate through without any account being given us of the activities of the Department. Trade agreements were made during the last 12 months.

The President

There were agreements made here and they are not being observed.

Mr. Costello

I made the point last year in the course of the debate on this Vote that it apparently was thought that the activities of the Department of External Affairs should be confined to trade.

The President

Are they going to honour their bond with regard to the time arrangement?

Mr. Costello

What bond?

Mr. Little

A Chinn Comhairle, there was a distinct understanding with Deputy Mulcahy that if the debate on the President's Department were finished, that we should also finish the other two Votes for External Affairs at some time this evening so as to give the Minister for Local Government an opportunity of making a statement on the Widows' and Orphans' Bill. It makes it absolutely impossible to open up any discussion with the Opposition Whips if conversations of this sort are denied afterwards.

General Mulcahy

I want to deny the statement made by the Parliamentary Secretary. The Parliamentary Secretary's hope was that the debate on the President's Estimate would conclude at 7.30 to-night. His hope also was that by getting on with the Estimate for the External Affairs Department he might be in a position to give the Minister for Local Government an opportunity of making a statement on the Widows' and Orphans' Pension Bill to-night. I want expressly to tell the House that there was no agreement to conclude any set of business to-night. The Parliamentary Secretary may think it very difficult to deal with me but an agreement is a thing which can be put in plain words. I am willing to put any agreement into plain words. I am willing to help the Parliamentary Secretary to get business concluded at a reasonable hour but surely the Parliamentary Secretary does not think that a few words of hope on his part and an accommodating manner on my part, mean that important discussion are to be cloaked? I am prepared to do my part in helping on the business of the House but an agreement is a thing that must be reduced to very definite terms. We have been discussing very important matters.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Would the Deputy suggest that they should be in writing?

General Mulcahy

I should be very glad if the Government could so manage its business as to put in writing a statement of the business it thought it was going to do. The Government very seldom knows what it is going to do from day to day. There is chopping and changing.

Mr. Little

May I say that I disagree with what I regard as a false statement of the facts on the part of Deputy Mulcahy? As far as ordinary words could go, he gave me to understand that he, as representing his Party, was willing that these discussions should certainly finish this evening at least one or two hours before 10.30.

General Mulcahy

I stated what the position is from my point of view. The Parliamentary Secretary is entitled, and is perfectly at liberty to use any words he likes in my regard, but what I have stated is the position as far as I am concerned.

Mr. Costello

Might I proceed, now? The discussion which has just taken place merely underlines and emphasises the point I made at the opening of my remarks that the very fact that an effort was made to rush through the Estimate for the Department of External Affairs, shows the attitude of the Government to this Department. I only desire to make one short comment which I was about to make when I was interrupted. A number of agreements were made in the course of the past year and even within the last few months. One would have expected that some reference should have been made to them here to-night. I do not want any undue reference to be made to them because I made my attitude perfectly clear in reference to this Department last year when I stated, and I repeat that statement now, that I do not regard the primary functions of the Department of External Affairs as those merely of a Trade Department or a subsidiary branch of the Department of Industry and Commerce. The development of trade relations is one of their functions but only one of their functions. Our representatives abroad should not be regarded merely as if they were commercial travellers. I think some statement should have been made on the matter and that we should have had some review of our relations with foreign countries and also of our relations with other members of the Commonwealth of Nations. In the absence of such a statement this Estimate should not be passed.

The President

If an arrangement could be come to that the House should sit on we might have such a statement, but the whole arrangement come to has been upset by Deputies on the opposite benches.

Mr. Costello

Such an agreement was never heard of over here.

The Vice-President

You did not hear it because you do not count in your Party.

Mr. Costello

Possibly not, but we have complete confidence in Deputy Mulcahy and will accept his word.

Mr. MacDermot

In confirmation of the statement made by Deputy Mulcahy, it is quite inconceivable to me that none of us should have been informed, and none of us were informed, if such an agreement were made by him.

Mr. Little

That is between you and your Whip. It is the duty of your Whip to inform you.

Mr. MacDermot

It is perfectly plain that there has been a misunderstanding. The same thing occurred before, when we had to make a complaint. I remember, on the Aliens Bill, I think it was, when I made a personal agreement with Deputy Little and I brought it to the attention of the President that that agreement was not observed. The President then said he never heard of it. I beg to move the adjournment.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.30 p.m. until Tuesday, 4th June, at 3 p.m.