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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 19 Feb 1936

Vol. 60 No. 6

Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds (Amendment) Bill, 1936—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. As the House may remember, the Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds (Amendment) Act, 1933, fixed the 31st of August, 1934, as the final date for the lodging, by subscribers, of applications for the repayment of sums subscribed to the Dáil External Loans. The main purpose of the present Bill is to extend that date to the 30th June of the present year. The Dáil Eireann Loans and Funds (Amendment) Act, 1933, became law on the 28th of July of that year. The making of the necessary regulations thereunder and the setting up of the financial and accounting machinery, to deal with the transfers of money from the Central Fund, to secure due control of the process of repayment, occupied some considerable time but was completed by the 1st March, 1934, that is, six months before the date which was fixed as the final one for lodging applications. From that date, extensive publicity was secured by advertisements in the public Press, here and in the United States of America, advising subscribers as to the necessity for lodging applications for repayment and notifying them of the existence of the final date by which such application should be lodged.

In addition to bringing the question of repayment under the notice of subscribers in this way, the repayment offices issued to every subscriber who had communicated with the offices of the receivers appointed originally by the United States Court in connection with the repayment of the loan, or with the repayment offices here, a form of application, the completion and return of which before the 31st August, 1934, would entitle the claimant to repayment. The total number of subscribers to whose notice the offer of repayment was brought in this way was, so far as I can estimate, about 200,000. From these there have been received to date something over 100,000 claims of which about 15,000 were lodged after the final date fixed by the original Act. It is not possible to state the figures for the late applications with any degree of exactness, as it may prove that many of the communications which have arrived since the final date, and which appear to relate to new claims, on examination, may be found to relate to claims which in fact have been already lodged or were lodged before the final date.

This question of repayment has aroused widespread interest in America—somewhat belated interest on the part of a number of people who had subscribed to the Loans. Since the lapse of that date, representations have been made to me from many quarters that the final date for making application should be extended and, after careful consideration of all the circumstances, it has been decided to accede to these representations. This Bill is introduced accordingly to give effect to that decision. In addition to extending the time limit for applications under the Bill, the measure also proposes to set up machinery for the completion of the work of the audit and the accounts relating thereto. On the general question of the wisdom of extending the date within which applications for repayment may be made, may I again remark that the Government's action in offering to repay external loans has been most favourably commented upon in the American Press and that it has done not a little to enhance our credit with the American public. Of the many Press references, I shall quote just one example. It is from a magazine which has a widespread circulation, not only in the United States of America but also in Great Britain, Ireland, and in English-speaking countries generally. I refer to the Saturday Evening Post. In one of its principal editorials, this journal has been so appreciative of our action in regard to the loan, and so generous in its praise, that I feel the terms in which it refers to this matter ought to form part of the permanent records of the House. I would ask your indulgence, therefore, if I take the unusual step of quoting it in full. The editorial to which I refer is headed “Irish Free State Pays Up.” It appeared in the issue for the 9th November, 1935. It reads:

"At a time when so many attitudes and policies throughout the world are well calculated to arouse both fear and censure, it is gratifying to call attention to conduct which deserves only praise. We refer to the action of the Irish Free State in voluntarily paying both principal and interest to bondholders in this country, whose claim was moral rather than legal. This action is contrary to that frequently followed under similar circumstances, and larger powers have taken advantage of much smaller excuses to default in payment. To appreciate the full meaning of the good faith displayed, it is necessary to recite even, in at least skeleton form, the background of circumstances. At a general election in November 1918, the Sinn Féin Party, which had previously held only a handful of seats, swept the country and pledged itself to establish a republic. A constitution was drawn up a Cabinet elected and Eamon de Valera, the last surviving senior commander of the republican forces in the rebellion of 1916, was elected President. However, many of the leaders, including de Valera, were actually in jail at the time. The republican forces were supported only by the subscriptions of their adherents, since the public revenues were in the hands of the British. Finally, de Valera escaped from jail and, disguised as a stoker, reached the United States in the late winter of 1919. Here, and in Canada, Central America and South America, he sold 6,000,000 dollars of bonds to descendants of Irish immigrants and to other sympathisers with his cause. These bonds were not issued by a Government which was recognised by other nations or which had any legal standing at the time. To many, the struggle in Ireland was merely another of the long series of rebellions against British authority, all of which had been failures. Rarely has an issue of bonds had less apparent investment security. Within a couple of years, the Irish and British drew up a treaty of peace, but the republican forces split, civil war followed and it was not until a number of years later that the de Valera forces triumphed. Meanwhile, the external loan sold in this country was not recognised, although following litigation, an American court ordered the 2,500,000 dollars which had been left on deposit in this country, distributed pro rata to the original subscribers, giving them 58 cents on the dollar. A very large number of the original subscribers—in fact, two-thirds of the total — failed to put in any claims for the 58 cent award. However, the Government now in power in Ireland, decided to open a repayment office in New York and to advertise in practically every State that it was prepared to offer those who had never put in any claims for the 58 cents a total of 1.25 dollars for each dollar subscribed, while to those who had received their 58 cents, it stood ready to pay 67 cents more. Now, it must be kept in mind that a great many of the subscribers regarded their subscriptions, not as an investment but as a gift to old Ireland. Only two persons subscribed for as much as 10,000 dollars and only four for 5,000 dollars. But there were 28,000 who subscribed for 50 dollars each, and no less than 237,000 who gave ten dollars apiece. Though great numbers of subscribers never expected any return, it can be said truthfully that the repayments have been made at a time which was extremely convenient to most of the recipients. That, however, is not the point. What matters is that this small country has met its debt of honour and set an example which more than one great world power might well observe and meditate upon.”

That is only a sample of the manner in which our offer to repay this loan has been received by the American Press. The fact that we have made it and the extent to which it has been availed of has undoubtedly enhanced our credit with the American public. It is clear that, owing to some oversight, possibly some circumstances over which they had no control, because it is now almost 17 years since the subscriptions were originally made, many of the people who did subscribe originally were not made aware in time of the offers to repay. Accordingly, in all these circumstances, we feel it is our duty to ask the Dáil to extend the final date to the day mentioned in the Bill and to give these people a last opportunity of applying for repayment. In addition to providing for an extension of the date in this way, the Bill also provides for the audit of the accounts relating to the repayment of the loan.

We would like to hear from the Minister the total amount of money that would be repayable in this case if the full claim was made. We would also like to hear in respect of the 10,000 odd claims that he says already have been made, the total amount to which these claims would come to. The Minister felt it was becoming and desirable to place, on what he called the permanent records of the House, an expression of appreciation on the part of at least one American newspaper, as a sample of American Press, in relation to what an honourable and magnificent thing it was for the Irish Free State to recognise its indebtedness with regard to this loan and proceed to pay it, not only in full, but with interest. It would be interesting, too, to have on the permanent records of the House, as also reflecting on the credit of this State, the reasons why, when a previous Administration many years ago, when the State was first set up, having decided to repay this loan in full to the persons who subscribed the loan and, with a view to doing that, and because it was accepting that responsibility, claimed the outstanding amount of the money that was available in the United States, the Minister and, as he then was, Mr. de Valera, resisted the claims of the State at that particular time, stepped in and prevented the State shouldering that responsibility and repaying that debt and embarked upon legal actions in the United States, challenging the responsibility or the authority of this State to repay this debt, challenging the authority of this State to claim the moneys that then existed and, by a long-drawn-out legal action, squandered a very large amount of the money that was then lying on deposit in the United States and belonging to this particular stage to interesting at this particular stage to place also on the permanent records of the House a statement of the reasons why the responsibility and authority of the State was challenged at that particular time in respect of this loan and to have recorded the amount of money belonging to the people of this country, borrowed for them, which was squandered in the United States by the action of the Minister and his President.

I do not propose to reply to the remarks which have been made by Deputy Mulcahy. Of course, I think some of them are not very germane to the question now under discussion, which is, in fact, whether we will extend the date for making these applications and whether we will provide for the winding-up of the repayment office and the audit of accounts. I presume when the report in connection with the completion of this operation comes to be discussed in the House, we may possibly be able to go into the matters raised by the Deputy.

Does the Minister, therefore, contend that the responsibility of this State in 1936 is different from the responsibility of this State in 1924 to repay the debt, the repayment of which is now being arranged for?

I have not knowledge of all the facts relating to 1924. I am dealing only with things as I find them now.

Question—"That the Bill be now read a Second Time"—put and agreed to.

When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?

I do not know whether there is any amendment possible. Might I suggest next Wednesday?

I asked the Minister if he would tell us what is the amount claimed.

I cannot give that at the moment. We have provided in this year's Estimates a sum of £400,000. I am not in a position to say what is the amount of claims outstanding. We are extending the date to the 30th June. On an average the 15,000 claims which have been made—I merely give this as a rough figure—might represent £60,000 more. Other claims may come in between now and the 30th June.

The Minister said there were at least 200,000 people to whose attention this matter was drawn. We were told that 100,000 have made claims and an extra 15,000 probably have made claims. What is the total amount that may be claimable under this Bill in respect of the external debt and what is the total amount that the 100,000 claims make up? The Minister hardly comes and asks the Dáil to extend the date without having made some kind of estimate as to the extent to which the 100,000 claims will go.

I can only say that we have made provision for a certain amount. We have provided £400,000 this year. That is the estimate we formed when we were preparing the Budget last year on the basis of the claims which had been already received. There were at that time approximately 15,000 claims which were late. I am making a guess at the estimate, because these 15,000 claims have not all been examined and, on that basis, I say that £50,000 or £60,000, or maybe even less, would cover those claims. The Deputy will appreciate, however, that a considerable number of subscribers who have not yet claimed may take advantage of this offer. If they do, I cannot say, of course, what our liability might be but, at the worst, if everybody who subscribed availed of the offer, it would cost the State about £1,000,000. I do not think it is going to cost quite as much as that, and I think it will cost possibly not more than half.

Do I understand that an examination of the 100,000 claims suggested to the Minister would take £400,000 to liquidate them?

About that.

Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 26th February.
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