There are two other points on this Vote that I want to mention to the Parliamentary Secretary. It has been suggested that during the last 12 months £50,000 has been spent on land reclamation. I should like to get some particulars of the work carried out for that £50,000; first, whether any of the money spent was given as grants to persons to carry out reclamation work on their own farms; how much was spent in that way, and what amount of land was reclaimed. Was any of the money spent on land in the possession of the Government, and, if so, how many acres were dealt with, and what was done with the land? Was it sold or retained by the Government, or how is it being used? The Parliamentary Secretary indicated that the wages paid on relief schemes were based on a calculation made on the amount of unemployment assistance paid to a man, and the value of the free beef given him, with the addition of some percentage.
In Committee on Finance. - Vote 10—Office of Public Works (Resumed).
Under certain schemes.
On what schemes was a calculation of that kind made? What was the average daily wage and the average weekly wage paid on these schemes?
I am sure the country will be very much delighted and obliged to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Finance to-morrow morning when, without the blare of trumpets or the beating of drums, there is revealed the Government's conception of a Christian social State. It is a minor relief scheme, financed half-way by public bodies and, to a similar extent, by the Government, to be carried out by unemployed at the rate of 24/- a week, and by unemployed men who will not be able, or will not be allowed, to work more than 15 days in the month. That is the Government's conception of a Christian social State. That is the Christian social State in which for the next 12 months all the unemployed will be able to get £9 per man. That is the position we have to face and we have to face it with the knowledge that the Parliamentary Secretary is going to indulge once more in an orgy of slap-dash schemes scattered over the country without any express purpose, with no cohesion and with no objective.
While these schemes have been in operation for some years past, we have had the Parliamentary Secretary's designs on the Government's masterpiece—a drainage scheme here, cleaning rivers which are likely to get choked after a couple of years if they are not looked after, and the making of roads which, if they are not looked after, in a few years more are likely to be as bad as before the Board of Works started on them. We have had that system or want of system going on, with no direction whatever. The one design of the Parliamentary Secretary's Department is to carry out schemes to relieve unemployment. I suggested to the Minister on another occasion—and even at the risk of repetition and of being tiresome I am going to suggest it again—that there should be some objective in the Parliamentary Secretary's schemes, that he should set himself to create some standard towards which he would work. I suggested that there should be a minimum standard of social service as his objective, that he should direct himself towards that, and that he would find in that a plentiful source of schemes in which he could usefully employ the money that is to be expended and the labour that is at hand. I suggested to him that there should be a minimum standard in housing and that he should concentrate in effecting that through the machinery which he has at his hands under this Relief Schemes Vote. I suggested to him that he should work towards a minimum standard in service and that he has got here the machinery through which he might usefully expend this money. I suggest to him that there should be a minimum standard in sanitation and water supplies and that he could usefully work towards that through the machinery he has at his hands in these relief schemes. Nothing of that kind is being attempted. There is no objective of any kind as far as I can see. We merely have these slap-dash schemes all over the country.
We had a good deal of talk about the method of recruitment of labour and the Parliamentary Secretary gave us a very clear indication that he is not entirely acquainted with the means by which employment is given on these schemes. I want to say definitely that I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary is at all evading the position. I believe that he is endeavouring, and has always endeavoured since he undertook the administration of these schemes, to keep in close touch with them and to see that fair play is given in the recruitment of labour on these schemes, but he has not accomplished his purpose. He has certainly failed to a great extent to accomplish that purpose. I know districts where people are brought three or four miles to work on schemes while people who are drawing unemployment assistance are left idle at the very verge of the work. I do not know where the people who are brought from the outside districts are registered, whether it is in the labour exchange or somewhere else. I do know that they are not registered at the local employment exchanges and I do know the people who are registered at the employment exchanges and who are drawing the highest scale of unemployment assistance are left idle. I have taken occasion to bring these matters to the notice of a number of Government Departments but I have found that the work in a great many places is completed or very nearly completed before the necessary investigations are carried through. That is a state of affairs of which the Parliamentary Secretary should take cognisance and endeavour immediately to rectify.
I have got information from people who are in daily touch with schemes in three districts in my own county. I know one district where people were brought five, six and eight miles to work while people who were living in the middle of the village where the work was being carried out were left idle. I know a district where a water scheme is being carried out and where people were left idle in the village. By the time the water scheme reached the village most of the work had been given away to people whose valuation was up to £5, £6 and even £8. The Parliamentary Secretary ought to take cognisance of these matters. One Department which I approached in connection with this matter informed me that it was no concern of that Department. When I made representations to another Department, I was referred back to the Department which had told me that it was no concern of theirs. I refuse to be made a shuttlecock between Departments in trying to ascertain who is responsible in that way. I think some Department ought to take responsibility.
Did the Deputy refer a specific case of that kind to my Department?
Mr. Hogan
I did not, definitely and clearly. I referred it to another Department.
If the Deputy will refer to me now, and to my Department, the cases which he has referred to other Departments, if they come within the competence of this Vote, I shall deal with them. If they do not come within the competence of this Vote I shall not be able to deal with them.
Mr. Hogan
Two of them are finished now, I think.
Even if they are finished, an examination of them may give us the information that is wanted. It does not follow that, because a scheme is over, something that was wrong in that scheme should not be brought to light because in investigating a defect of that kind, we are enabled to come to a decision by which such defects can be avoided in future.
Mr. Hogan
It can occur in various ways. It can occur through the activities of an energetic ganger who would go to the exchange or indicate to the exchange the particular district or number of districts from which he wants to get men and who will deliberately cut out a number of other districts because he does not want to give employment to men from these districts.
I am asking the Deputy to give me the particular cases which he has in mind so as to enable me to find out what happened in these cases.
Mr. Hogan
I am endeavouring to indicate to the Parliamentary Secretary that I do know this method is employed. The exchange is supposed to get a list of the townlands from which labour in that particular area has to be drawn. I know that an energetic and prejudiced ganger can give a particular number of townlands from which he wants to recruit labour and deliberately cut out a number of other townlands from which he does not want to take any labour.
Does the Deputy know any case under this Vote in which that has been done?
Mr. Hogan
I do know a case in which it has been done in connection with relief schemes.
If the Deputy will give me particulars of these cases, I shall investigate them.
Mr. Hogan
I want an assurance not only that the Parliamentary Secretary will investigate the matter, but, also, an assurance that such an occurrence will not arise again and that I will not have to raise this matter again.
I am not perturbed. But I promise that if there, is anything wrong or any machinery going wrong I will take means, as far as is in my power, to prevent that occurring again. I have no knowledge of any such case, nor has any member of the House, or anyone outside the House, brought any such case to my knowledge. I am more anxious to have an examination into a case such as that alleged to have occurred than people can possibly imagine. I am very anxious to get a case in which things have gone wrong so that I may stop it. I do not know of any such case now.
Mr. Hogan
I do not know whether the Parliamentary Secretary would stop such an occurrence as I have alleged if it happened again. If I report a case to a Government Department, and point out irregularities that have occurred, it is surely the duty of the particular Government Department, if I made a mistake in going to the wrong Department, to send me to the right Department.
There seems to be an idea that the Board of Worrks is a clearing house for the investigation of all sorts of grievances without any relation to the fact that our Department was not responsible and where it is really only a matter of courtesy to get these things treated in the proper Department. But it is not my responsibility, or the responsibility of any particular Department, when some one sends them a case with which they have nothing to do to do more than say that. Their responsibility ends there. But as a matter of fact and consideration people are very often helped to find the right Department to which the complaint should be sent.
Mr. Hogan
I do not accept the Parliamentary Secretary's dogma. If I write to the Local Government Department about something that has gone wrong, for instance, in regard to the recruitment of labour, it is the duty of the Local Government Department to send it on to the Department dealing with labour. I am not now discussing Local Government. I am discussing the recruitment of labour.
I want to help the Deputy, and I will help him. If the Deputy has a case let us have it. We have the admission about a particular grievance that has never been put up to us.
Mr. Hogan
I am giving the Parliamentary Secretary information which I have, and upon which I can base my statement. I would like that this statement should be immediately investigated so that the work that is being carried out in a particular district would not be completed before justice is done to the people who are entitled to get that work there. In connection with the recruitment of labour I know that very grave injustice is being done to these people. First of all every possible means should be taken to investigate before people are deprived of their unemployment assistance. People have been knocked out of unemployment assistance; while their cases are being investigated they are not entitled to be put to work on the scheme and by the time a case is decided the scheme has concluded in their area. That is a matter the Parliamentary Secretary should take into consideration.
The Parliamentary Secretary to conclude.
Oh no. If no one else is ready to speak I shall move to report progress.
It is not 10.30. There is still time.
Then I shall read the Estimates. This is an Estimate of the amount required in the year ending 31st March, 1937, to pay the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works. I shall read this Estimate verbatim until 10.30.
It is not permissible to read the Estimate verbatim.
Then I shall read another page. The Government object to report progress at 28 minutes past ten. This is an Estimate for expenditure on Public Works and Buildings; for the maintenance of certain parks and public works; for the execution and maintenance of drainage works; and for a grant-in-aid of the River Shannon navigation. This Estimate is under the following several heads: A, B, C, CC, D.1., D.2., E, EE., F, G, H.1., H2., I.
Surely the Estimate is taken as read.
J.1., J.2., J.3., J.4., J.5., J.6., K. Item A is concerned with the purchase of sites and buildings and represents a sum of £39,000. Most of these heads are further sub-divided and cover a very wide field.
I call attention to the fact that there is not a quorum present.
I move to report progress.
I have called for a count of the House. I do not think that any business can be taken until there is a quorum, and I do not think the Deputy is entitled to move to report progress. It is quite obvious the Deputy wants to obstruct the business of the House and I prefer to go home rather than listen to the Deputy talking nonsense.
I move to report progress.