Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Feb 1937

Vol. 65 No. 2

In Committee on Finance. Supplementary Estimates. - Vote 17—Rates on Government Property.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £4,170 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1937, chun Rátaí agus Síntiúisí in ionad Rátaí, etc., i dtaobh Maoine Rialtais, agus chun Síntiúisí mar chabhair chun íoctha Rátaí ar Aitreabhacha ar seilbh ag Ionadaithe Rialtaisí Coigríche.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £4,170 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1937, for Rates and Contributions in lieu of Rates, etc., in respect of Government Property, and for Contributions towards Rates on Premises occupied by Representatives of External Governments.

The purpose of this Vote is sufficiently explained, I think, in the White Paper.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister say whether he has caused any inquiry to be made as to why this rather substantial additional sum is required, and by what local bodies the amount is required? Has the Minister made any inquiries as to what are the reasons that have caused these local bodies to make this additional demand on the Exchequer?

Mr. MacEntee

That does not come within the province of the Minister. The Minister, in this case, is only responsible for seeing that the rates as demanded by the local authorities are duly contributed by the State.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister say what precludes him, when he gets a demand from a local body, from making an inquiry as to why these moneys should be paid, and what the necessity for the increased payment is?

Mr. MacEntee

I am in the same position, Sir, as any other ratepayer— I assume the rate was properly struck and I pay it on demand.

General Mulcahy

But the Minister must be aware that the amount now demanded is substantially above that which he thought would be required. Is he to be completely unlike any ordinary ratepayer who, when he gets notice of a demand for increased rates from the local body, naturally asks himself and his neighbours or anybody he can get from the local authorities, why the rates should be mounting; and is the reason why the Minister makes no enquiry in this matter that he is paying the rates out of the taxpayers' pocket and not out of his own pocket? If the Minister claims that he is the same as any other ratepayer, I think we are entitled to hear from him what he has to say on this very large additional provision. I think the House is entitled to get some expression of opinion from the Minister. Is he silent on this matter because the rates are being driven up by Government policy?

Mr. MacDermot

The two reasons given in the particulars for this additional demand are that in some rating areas the rates are higher and, secondly, in some cases, more rateable property was acquired by Departments. It is the second reason which arouses my curiosity, and I want to ask the Minister for Finance if he would give any indication as to which Departments acquired more rateable property.

Mr. MacEntee

I think, Sir, that the Deputy would be able to form an opinion in that regard if he studied carefully the details which are given in the Estimate.

Mr. MacDermot

The details given here do not distinguish, if I understand it, between the Departments that have to pay additional rates because the rating is higher, and the Departments which have acquired more rateable property. Perhaps I missed something.

Mr. Dillon

No, the Deputy has not.

Mr. MacDermot

Well, I can see nothing here to show which Departments have acquired more rateable property, and I think the House has a right to ask for that information.

Mr. Dockrell

I should like to supplement the question by asking what is meant by the item under the head C—Contributions towards Rates on Premises occupied by Representatives of External Governments. In the original Estimate there is nothing, and so, apparently, there were no contributions towards premises by representatives of external Governments. In the revised Estimate there is a sum of £750. These are not the rates on a cottage, and surely the Minister ought to be able to give us some explanation about a foreign Government which, presumably, has come in since the rates were struck, and occupied a premises which, at 20/- in the £, would amount to a rateable valuation of £750. Surely that cannot be a question beneath the notice of the Minister, and we are entitled to ask if external Governments are pouring in at this rate and what the premises are that were occupied which would drive the valuation of them upon the rates for this year.

Mr. MacDermot

Is the Minister refusing to give this information?

Mr. MacEntee

I do not propose, Sir, to proceed by way of cross-examination. When I understand that those who desire to put questions on the Estimate have all put those questions, I then propose to answer them.

Mr. MacDermot

I do not know whether the Minister knows what the word "cross-examination" means. If he does, he is wilfully applying it in the wrong sense.

Mr. O'Leary

He was through it one time anyway.

Mr. MacDermot

The Minister has been asked very simple questions, and I can see no reason why he should not give an immediate answer, as this debate is not at all likely to be prolonged.

Mr. MacEntee

As to the question put by Deputy MacDermot, Sir, that is a question which should properly be put to the Ministers responsible for these Departments. I, Sir, am only responsible for seeing that the proper contribution is fixed and when I have done that I have to come here to the Dáil and ask it to give me authority to pay this amount of money. I am satisfied that the amount which the Departments have submitted that they require for this service is correct. As to whether additional premises have been acquired here or there for the use of any particular Government Department, if information is wanted on that point, it can be obtained by way of Parliamentary Question addressed to the Minister directly concerned.

Mr. MacDermot

How about the Department of Finance?

Mr. MacEntee

Well, I require notice of the question if the Deputy intends to put it.

Mr. MacDermot

What? The Minister requires notice in order to be able to tell us, after bringing in an Estimate for the amount, what the £750 is for?

Mr. MacEntee

With regard to the question raised by Deputy Dockrell, the position is that until 1932-33 provision was made in this Estimate, No. 17, for making contributions towards the rates on premises occupied by representatives of external Governments; that is to say, for contributions towards the non-beneficial rates on premises occupied by representatives of external Governments. In the years 1933-34 and up to the present year, this provision did not appear in the Estimate, because the question of reciprocal concessions in regard to this matter arose. The position since then has been clarified, and henceforward provision will be made by this country on a basis of strict reciprocity. The fact that an adjustment has been made in regard to this matter has involved the provision in this year's Estimate to cover, not merely the contribution which would be made in one year, but to cover the arrears of contributions since 1932-33.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister explain what he means by reciprocity in this matter, and to what extent are we being relieved of any rates abroad in respect of rates that Legations here are being relieved of? To what extent are we being charged rates abroad in respect of Legations that the Minister is now causing to pay rates here?

Mr. MacEntee

I said that the provision would proceed on the basis of strict reciprocity. If we make contributions on the basis of non-beneficial rates on premises occupied by representatives of external Governments here, we receive the same concession in regard to our premises abroad.

General Mulcahy

Are we going to get this money? Does the Minister tell the House that he is going to get this £750 this year, and will he say from what Governments he is going to get that amount?

Mr. MacEntee

I think, Sir, the Deputy ought to read the Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

It is quite clear, Sir, that the Minister for Finance is trying to provoke Deputies in this House, because it is grotesque for the Minister for Finance to say that he has come in here to introduce an Estimate, calling for the expenditure of £720 in connection with his own Department, but that he requires notice of any question arising in connection with that expenditure. The whole Estimate procedure, Sir, becomes farcical if the Minister comes in here and says that he will answer no inquiry in regard to the substance of the Estimate, whether he has the information or whether he has not, and that if anything arises on the Estimate it must be put down by way of Parliamentary Question which can only be answered after the Estimate is disposed of. Now, we have no guiding line here as to whether this increase in the rates is due to the acquisition of new property or to the ordinary rise in the rates. Therefore, we can only give our own conjecture as to what this Estimate arises from. Deputy MacDermot may have noticed that, in his own constituency, the county council recently struck the rate, but when the general Estimate was before them they were informed that the board of health estimate was up by £5,000, the asylum estimate was up by £2,000, and the vocational education estimate was up by £1,000. It was therefore decided that there could be no new steamrolling done in the county at all this year because there was no money to pay for it. The chairman of the county council anticipated that this was merely a momentary difficulty and that at the end of the financial year it would have disappeared and he turned to his colleague the Fianna Fáil chairman of the board of health to confirm that view. The chairman of the board of health said he was sorry that he could not give any confirmation, that the estimate of the board of health was up by £5,000 this year and that it would be up by £3,000 next year. I then directed the attention of the local authority, as I now direct the attention of the Minister to the fact that we have come to the end of four glorious years' spending of borrowed money and that we have now started on 60 weary years of repayment. While that repayment is going on, this Supplementary Estimate is going to come in here again and again for 60 weary years.

A Deputy

We will not be here then.

Mr. Dillon

That is very typical of Fianna Fáil: "Let us be merry while we may." I had occasion on a previous discussion to liken the Fianna Fáil Party to a gentleman who went out on the spree. There was a friend of his who urged him to be prudent, when he was rolling out of a public-house and he replied: "Let us be merry." He was asked "What are you going to do to-morrow if you have a sore head?" His answer was: "Who knows that I will not be dead to-morrow?" That is the attitude of the Fianna Fáil Party now. You have had four glorious years of spending borrowed money and you are going to start on 60 years of repayment. That is what this Supplementary Estimate is for, to make the State contribution to the first of the 60 instalments on the debts at present outstanding.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must confine himself to the instalment in this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

Absolutely. It is an instalment by the State in respect of the first payment by local authorities of their first instalment on the accumulated debts of the last four years. Many Deputies think that this is a peculiar Supplementary Estimate just as the Chairman of the Roscommon County Council thought the demand was only for one year, but I want to inform them that they are going to get this Supplementary Estimate every year for the next 60 years. Your children and grandchildren will get it in this House. Every year you will have to make a special contribution on behalf of the State towards the increased rates. The State, however, can bear it. Am I entitled to draw a distinction between the capacity of the State to find this money and the capacity of the man who has purchased a house and who is still paying instalments on the purchase price?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not so entitled.

Mr. Dillon

Very well. I shall not, but I invite Deputies to make the comparison for themselves.

Mr. Hogan

I notice that the sum of £65 is being provided for the Department of Industry and Commerce. I should like to know if that is being provided in connection with the acquisition of the lands at Rhynana which hitherto have been paying rates. I should like to know if that £65 is required by the Minister to pay rates on these lands.

Mr. MacEntee

That is a question for the Minister for Industry and Commerce.

General Mulcahy

On the Minister's advice I have read Section C and I have to admit that it is much more lucid than the Minister's explanation. I understand it is a question of the people of the country paying £750 in respect of rates on buildings occupied by representatives of other Governments. This money has to be paid over, but in particular we should like to know what is being paid in respect of the Communist Government of Spain.

Mr. MacEntee

I can at least assure the Deputy on that point. So far as I am aware there is no provision made in this sum for a contribution towards the rates in respect of the premises occupied by the Spanish Legation.

Mr. Hogan

I think I am entitled to know whether the Clare County Council are going to be paid rates in respect of the land acquired for the air base at Rhynana. I want to know whether any part of the sum provided for the Minister for Industry and Commerce has reference to rates on these lands.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to ask for an explanation of the purpose for which the amount in the Estimate is being sought, but not to inquire regarding the liability of anybody for rates on the lands at Rhynana.

Mr. Hogan

I think I am entitled to ask whether the amount here provided is in respect of rates on these lands. I think that the Minister in all courtesy should give me some information on that point.

Mr. MacEntee

If the Deputy wants information in respect to any of the amounts debited to various Departments, he will have to put that question to the responsible Minister.

Mr. Hogan

I shall have to inform the Clare County Council, if I am asked whether I raised this question, that I directed the responsible Minister's notice to the Estimate and he was not able to give me the information.

Vote put and agreed to.