Rinneadh a lán cainnte, ar na Meastacháin seo, ar mhúineadh na Gaedhilge sna scoileanna agus dubhairt an Teachta O Coistealbha go rabhamair ag sáthadh na Gaedhilge síos scórnaigh na ndaoine. Ní gá dhom a rá gurb ionann an polasaí atá againn-ne anois agus an polasaí a bhí ag an seana-Rialtas. Pléidheadh an cheist seo, múineadh na Gaedhilge sna scoileanna, tamall ó shoin agus nuair a chuir an Teachta Mac Diarmada rún os ár gcóir ni bhfuair sé ach guth amháin. Taisbeanann san go bhfuilmíd ar aon intinn, ar gach taobh de'n Tigh, maidir le ceist na Gaedhilge agus múineadh na Gaedhilge. Do labhair an Teachta O Diolúin ar an modh múinte i ranganna na naoidhneán. Nílimíd ad' iarraidh aon abhar scoile do theagasc do sna naoidhneáin ach amháin an Ghaedhilg. Is gá uimhreacha agus rudaí mar sin do theagasc do sna naoidhneáin i dtreo go mbeid i ndan úsáid do dhéanamh den teangain.
We have listened to a fairly large number of speeches on these Estimates. I am only sorry that most of the speeches were comparatively worthless. Some of them dealt with the programme in respect to the teaching of Irish in the schools. We have been listening to such speeches for years past and I am not going to weary the House by repeating arguments used quite recently when a motion in the name of Deputy MacDermot was under discussion in the House. I explained then, and I might repeat the statement for Deputy Morrissey's information, that it is not the policy of the Department that teachers who are not qualified, in the view of the inspectorate, to teach through Irish should do so. I said in my speech yesterday that we had carried out the policy laid down in the circular of 1930, and that recently we had again called the attention of inspectors to that matter. If there are teachers attempting to teach through Irish who are not qualified to do so, they are certainly doing it against the wishes of the Department and at variance with the programme as laid down. Moreover, if the work of such teachers should come under the observation of the inspectors, as it is bound to, it would be the duty of the inspectors to call their attention to the fact that, in our view, they are not qualified to do this work. I have made that quite clear. I think it is clearly understood by all who are connected with the administration of education but apparently it is not understood in the Dáil, although I have repeated it several times here, nor is it understood in the country. A great deal of misrepresentation has been going on.
It has to be understood, while that is the position, that we have been expecting teachers to endeavour to do what they can to carry out the policy of the Department. If they were unable, in our view, to teach through Irish, we expected them to use Irish as much as possible and as far as they are able in connection with the ordinary work of the school. I gave an account also in my speech of the numbers of teachers who have got certificates of one kind or another. Of the total number, 6.5 per cent. have the Árd Teastas. I think all these teachers would be qualified to teach practically the full programme through Irish. We have, in addition, 47.6 per cent. who have the bi-lingual certificate. I think a great number, if not all, of these should be qualified—I would not be in a position to say definitely that they would be all qualified in the view of the inspectors —to teach through Irish, to some degree. Of course, teachers may be able to teach some subjects through Irish satisfactorily, and not teach others but, according to these figures, it would appear that about 50 per cent. approximately of the teachers should be in a position to teach through Irish.
As is usual, when these Estimates are under discussion I have been asked to interview my colleague, the Minister for Finance, with a view to making moneys available for certain developments that Deputies consider would be very useful and very necessary in education. For example, I have been advised to approach the Minister for Finance with reference to the matter of the cut in the teachers' salaries. I am not quite clear whether it is the cut imposed by the present Government in connection with the settlement of the pension fund problem or whether I am expected to interview the Minister for Finance with a view to getting him to restore, not only that particular cut, but also the cut imposed by the last Government and bring the situation back to what it was in 1920, so far as the teachers' salaries are concerned. I regret that I cannot see my way to approach the Minister for Finance in this matter. In spite of the great interest that has been taken by Deputies in the teachers' case for a restoration of their salary cuts, and in spite of the appeals that have been made to-day in the House, I feel that I cannot use whatever influence I have in that regard, the reason being that the Government has explained quite clearly, and as I think the country understands, what their position is with regard to this matter of the teachers' salaries.
When we came into office there was there to be settled the question of the teachers' pensions fund which had become seriously deficient from an actuarial point of view. Its position financially was becoming very much worse each year that went by. The problem had been unsolved by our predecessors. They had made a certain offer to the teachers which, as has been pointed out during the discussion in this House, was in fact accepted by the teachers at one stage, though afterwards rejected by them. We went fully into the question with the teachers' representatives when we became the Government. We made them a certain offer, an offer which was certainly better than that made by our predecessors, as would be natural to expect from a Government of our generous instincts. We were unable nevertheless, to get the teachers to agree to that notwithstanding the circumstances of the pensions fund and the likelihood that if that position were to continue—the fund steadily becoming worse and actuarially insolvent—they would eventually, within a few years, be left without any pensions. We could not persuade them to accept, and to recommend to their colleagues and their organisation, the 9 per cent. cut with certain adjustments, and a 6 per cent. cut in the case of junior assistant mistresses, who were brought in, to settle up the pensions fund problem.
An appropriate resolution was subsequently carried in this House and I explained the position fully at the time. Different views were expressed at the time but in any case the House implemented that resolution and the settlement became effective, with the result that at the present time, while the main body of the teachers have suffered a 9 per cent. cut, the State has to provide about £388,000 per annum, a sum which will increase yearly until it reaches a figure eventually of £500,000 annually, in respect of charges for teachers' superannuation. I do not see any prospect of the Government's reopening that question at this stage. It has to be admitted that a share, whether the whole of the 9 per cent. or some lesser amount, must go in the form of a pension contribution. Although there was an element of economy in the 9 per cent. cut, nevertheless the cut itself was and is an essential part of the pensions fund settlement that we introduced, and for which we got the sanction of the Dáil. I do not think that there is any possibility of the Government reopening the matter at this stage.
In any case I am inclined to agree with my friend Deputy Kehoe that perhaps the case which is being made for the teachers by the Opposition Party is not quite so strong when we have regard to the fact that the cut which they were prepared to make, and which they offered as a settlement in their time, was 10 per cent. It seems extraordinary, as has been pointed out during the discussion, when the country is in such a serious state financially, according to the Opposition, that we should be expected to go very much further now. As I said, we have already done better than our predecessors in regard to the settlement. That we should be expected now to restore the whole of the 9 per cent., and not alone that but actually to go back to the 1920 position, because that is what is being put up to us, is simply incomprehensible, and can only be explained by reference to the fact that we are on the eve of a general election. I think a good many of the teachers themselves realised that the campaign for the reopening of that pensions fund settlement was not likely to succeed. Without attempting to suggest that the teachers have not a perfect right to make their case to the country, and to get support for it wherever they wish, we have explained that we are not prepared to reopen the question at the present time, and that is how the matter stands.
With regard to the question of the falling averages, the fall in the numbers of the enrolments and the averages in the schools, particularly in the rural areas, has been going on for some years. I explained to the House in my opening speech that we were taking certain steps with regard to reducing the number of teachers, reducing the number of candidates in the training colleges, refusing recognition to teachers trained in Great Britain, and reducing the number of junior assistant mistresses, for example, in order that we may eventually reduce the supply of teachers to equal the demand. But that, as has been pointed out during the discussion, merely covers the question of the entry of new teachers into the teaching profession; it does not cover the question of the existing teachers. That, however, has also been under consideration for a very long time. When it was brought under my notice some years ago we examined the question as it then appeared, and as a result we brought certain revised rules into operation on 1st January, 1935, which eased the position for teachers whose positions were threatened, and we showed that we realised the need for amelioration of the conditions then existing. Under those revised regulations grants are not withdrawn from assistant teachers and junior assistant mistresses until the average attendance has fallen below the figure for their retention for four consecutive quarters, and such teachers with at least ten years' service are allowed to retain their positions in a redundant capacity for a number of additional quarters, according to their length of service, to a maximum of six quarters, to enable them to secure positions in other schools.
The position, however, has since become more acute. The numbers on the rolls of the schools in the rural areas, particularly in the counties on the western seaboard from Donegal to Kerry and Cork, continue to show a decline which has been gradually developing for eight or nine years, and which present indications suggest will continue for some time longer. I need hardly say in this connection that I fully realise the educational effect of the condition of doubt and uncertainty in which teachers are placed who find themselves in a precarious position owing to falling averages, and the increasing number of teachers likely to be affected has had my serious consideration. In the consideration of the whole issue I have been in consultation with the Minister for Finance, and although I cannot at the moment make a definite statement, Deputies may be assured that anything which the State can reasonably be expected to do to meet the situation will be done. I have no doubt that with the co-operation of the managers, which, from recent public pronouncements, I am quite sure will be gladly forthcoming, a means will be found in the near future for easing the situation. I believe that if we had an arrangement under which teachers who are in danger or on the point of losing their positions owing to falling averages would be listed for appointment to other schools as vacancies arise, the problem would be found to be much easier of solution.
Another matter that was referred to was the question of the school leaving age. Deputy O'Sullivan seems to think that relative to our total State expenditure our Estimates for education are possibly not as high as they were ten years ago. That may be, but there are items under certain of the other Votes which pertain closely to education, although I have no responsibility for them, such as the school meals scheme, the provision of milk for children, and the county medical services. If the proportion of national expenditure to education seems to be smaller than it has been, the reason is that there has been a great increase in social services which are at least as worthy of attention and as worthy of Government assistance as schemes for educational development. Whenever I have made a case for additional financial aid for educational services or auxiliary services I have always been met very fairly, and if I have not been met fairly it has been, I think, generally because of some weakness in the case which has been put up. With regard to the school leaving age, the House is aware that the committee which was appointed to investigate the question of raising the school leaving age reported in favour of experiments in this direction in specially selected centres. It was the view of this committee that those experiments were necessary before it was possible to say with any degree of confidence that it was wise to raise the school leaving age generally. Last year I announced the intention of the Government to conduct experiments in accordance with the recommendations of the committee, and I informed the Technical Education Congress in Drogheda last June that I was prepared to commence in the Drogheda area, which seemed to my Department to be specially suited to the purpose. Owing to the regrettable death of the chief executive officer of the Drogheda Vocational Education Committee, on whose valuable experience much of the success of the experiment depended, I was compelled to postpone action in this area. Early in the current session I communicated with the City of Cork Committee, which expressed its willingness to cooperate with my Department, and it is accordingly proposed to apply Part V of the Vocational Education Act to the city area as from 1st September next.
