There was an understanding that I would be permitted to move an amendment to this Government amendment to decide the issue whether the electorate should be the Dáil or the Dáil plus the county councils. I move as an amendment:—
To delete paragraph (b) in amendment No. 90.
The Title of this Bill is the "Seanad Electoral (Panel Members) Bill, 1937." That was its title when it was submitted to this House for a First Reading, and recommended as being, in the view of the Government, the best method of electing a Seanad, and the best method of providing machinery for the election of a Seanad. The procedure for electing the new Seanad was to be the existing Dáil plus the unsuccessful candidates at the last election who secured a minimum of 500 votes. There was to be a scheme of plural voting in which Deputies would be given votes in this new electoral college consisting of members of the Dáil and of the unsuccessful candidates at the previous general election in proportion to the number of votes which they obtained at that election. In any case, whatever the scheme was, the clear intention was that the electorate should consist of those who were members of the Dáil and those who, but for the accident of the people's will, would also have been members of the Dáil. The clear idea at any rate was that the Dáil as actually elected, or as it might have been elected, was to be constituted the electorate for the purpose of selecting candidates for the new Seanad. That clearly represented the philosophy of the Government in respect of the manner in which the new Seanad should be elected.
When that Bill came before the Dáil there was quite a considerable amount of criticism in regard to the proposal to bring in the unsuccessful candidates on the grounds that they were not entitled to be given such a standing in this matter; that it was a new, a novel and, in fact, a freakish proposal to bring into the election of a new Seanad persons who, under our existing electoral legislation, are regarded as a kind of political nuisance because we fine them £100 if they fail to get one-third of the quota in the general election at which they stand. That proposal, as I have said, was strongly criticised when the Bill came before the House on Second Reading and, again, before the Special Committee set up to consider the Bill. That Committee disagreed on many points in connection with this Bill, and on many schemes. There were times at the Committee when almost every group there had a viewpoint entirely different from the other groups, but there were times when there was some measure of agreement between the Parties, and whatever their differences were on one aspect of their scheme or another, the point on which they converged most closely and upon which there was the maximum measure of agreement was the proposal that the electorate, for the purpose of electing the Seanad, should be constituted of Dáil Eireann. I think the President will agree with me when I say that there was probably a greater measure of agreement on the proposal to confine the electorate to the Dáil than on any other proposal that was put before the Committee. In fact, even the Government nominees on the Committee were of opinion that the Dáil electorate was much preferable to an electorate composed of the Dáil plus unsuccessful candidates in the last election. To prove that, it is only necessary to refer to the report of the Seanad Committee, where it will be found, on page 19 of that report, that there is a scheme submitted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce for the election of Senators. I need not go into that scheme in any detail, but when we come to the portion of the scheme which refers to the electorate, we find that the Minister for Industry and Commerce submitted a definite scheme to provide that the electorate should be as provided for in the Draft Bill—that is, Dáil Deputies and certain unsuccessful candidates at the previous election, or members of the Dáil only; and, in explaining the merits of the scheme to the Committee, it was quite clear that the Minister for Industry and Commerce did not mind which way the Dáil decided. It was quite clear that he was prepared to offer either the electorate which was in the Bill or an electorate consisting entirely of members of the Dáil, and when that scheme was discussed in the Committee the Government members on the Committee actually voted in favour of the Minister's scheme. In other words, they voted in favour of a scheme to have the new Seanad elected on the basis of a Dáil electorate.
A question arose here, in discussing another section of this Bill, as to whether the idea of a county council electorate was ever mentioned in the Committee. I think it was mentioned once, but I do not think there was anything in the nature of a serious effort made to put forward a county council electorate as a proposal which was likely to find any considerable measure of support before the Committee. In fact, I think it is a fair representation of the feelings of the Committee to say that, on the occasion upon which the county council scheme was suggested by Deputy Anthony, it was scouted by every member on the Committee and that there was no serious body of opinion on the Committee in favour of a county council electorate. In fact, I think it was suggested in the first instance—the only instance— by Deputy Anthony when the Committee was at a dead end as to what kind of scheme might be considered by the Committee in connection with an electorate.
It was, therefore, with feelings of amazement that I observed that the Government, which came to the House in the first instance and got a Second Reading for a Bill providing for an electorate consisting of the Dáil and certain unsuccessful Deputies, and which went before the Select Committee and there proposed a scheme providing for a Dáil electorate—it was with feelings of amazement, as I say, that I observed the Government coming to the House, on what is virtually the Report Stage of the Bill, and changing completely the entire character of the electorate as envisaged in the Bill when it was first introduced, or else contemplated by the Government at the proceedings of the Select Committee. I can only imagine, therefore, that there have been some good reasons on the part of the Government for changing over so suddenly and so dramatically from a scheme for providing an electorate composed of the Dáil, and certain unsuccessful candidates—thrown in when the Bill was submitted for Second Reading—to the crazy kind of scheme set out in this amendment now. I think it is probably without precedent, that on the Fourth Stage of a Bill we have ever had such a drastic amendment in a Bill of this character and such a complete reversal by the Government from one scheme, which they backed on the First Stage and on the Committee Stage, to a scheme of this kind, which, in my opinion, has no merit whatever in it.
Of course, the President says that this scheme was not devised in order to give the Government a majority— in fact, he never thought of it in that regard. He may assure himself and comfort himself as much as he likes in that respect, but I do not accept the statement that the Government have not a majority on the county councils, and I venture to say that if the membership of the various county councils were examined, it would be found that, while it is true that the Government might have less than 50 per cent., taking them all together, they have got such strength on a sufficiency of them as to enable them to elect the majority of members who will constitute the new electoral college. On county councils where the Government have a majority they will be able to plank in the entire number of members to constitute the electoral college. Of course, the President says that he never thought of this—in fact, he never thought it would be any advantage at all. It is amazing the way the President's mind moves. Setting out as a simple man to discover the best method of getting an electorate, he hits on a type of electorate which, not only appears to him to be a good electorate, but which, by accident—and only by accident—would be an immensely successful electorate from the point of view of his own political Party. He says that the Government Party have only 44 per cent. representation on the county councils and borough councils affected by this Bill, and says that, in fact, a Dáil electorate would be much more favourable to the Government. Well, I think that anybody who knows the President, and who knows the agile and astute political mind he possesses, will know perfectly well that if the President discovered that he could get 50 per cent. of the new Seanad elected by means of the Dáil and only 44 per cent. elected by means of the county councils, he would not be slow to discover the virtue of a Dáil electorate as against a county council electorate. The President's reputation may be built up largely on his wrapping himself up in a mantle of simplicity, but I think it would be most unusual for him to act in that way.
I do not believe that the Government Party have a minority representation on the county councils. I believe that they have a majority, and I believe that this scheme will operate to give them a majority on the new Seanad by means of the make-believe of a democratic method of electing a new Seanad. It is because of that that I am opposed to this new scheme, which, in my opinion, is definitely in favour of the Government, and which will give them a majority in the new Seanad, to which they are not entitled on their representation in this House.
As I said, this Bill was dealt with on the First Stage, on the Second Stage, and on the Committee Stage, and it was only on the Fourth Stage that the President could produce his county council method of election. When the Bill was first conceived, and when it was discussed on Second Reading, and again through the medium of the Select Committee, the scheme that was holding the field was a Dáil electorate, plus certain unsuccessful candidates. On the unsuccessful candidates' side the Government trimmed the proposal and said: "We do not mind if the electorate is a Dáil electorate." Now, after we had that manifestation of the Government's viewpoint in respect of the electorate, we find the Government on the Fourth Stage coming along with a scheme providing for a county council electorate.
The whole atmosphere of this matter clearly suggests that the Government have discovered considerable political value in the scheme of bringing in the county councils. In fact, one might suggest even now that, if the Bill had been dealt with in the Dáil, instead of by the Select Committee, and if it had been dealt with expeditiously in the Dáil, the scheme would probably have passed with the Dáil electorate, because it was, apparently, only after a week's cogitation that the President discovered that the county council method was the most satisfactory. He clearly had not that scheme in mind when the Committee sat to deal with the Bill, because we never heard a word of the proposal from the President or from any member of the President's Party on the Committee. The only proposal which we heard from the President's Party on the Committee in respect of the electorate was that submitted by the Minister for Industry and Commerce, in which he stated that, in his opinion, the electorate ought to be as in the Draft Bill, namely, Deputies and certain potential Deputies, or members of the Dáil alone. So that, if the Bill had been dealt with expeditiously by the Dáil in Committee, instead of through the medium of the Special Committee, we probably would have reached a stage where this Bill would have been passed with a Dáil electorate, or the Dáil plus certain unsuccessful candidates, because it is only in the last week or so that the President discovered this other method of constituting an electoral body.
I object to this whole method of bringing in the county councils, firstly, because, in my opinion, it is capable of political manipulation in the interests of the Government Party. All the assurances to the contrary have not in any way affected my viewpoint in that regard. Had we not statements from the Government organ in 1934 that the Government got a majority on the county councils? Had we not definite statements at that time and definite expressions of opinion that the menace to the municipal government which was, unfortunately, involved in the local authorities elections in that year had been defeated, and had been defeated, according to the Government Press organ, because the Government had secured a substantial majority on the county councils? We have the Government Press organ saying that, and then we have the President coming along, although there has been no election in the meantime, and saying: "Not at all, that is nonsense; we have not, in fact, got a majority on the county councils; in fact, we have got a minority on the county councils; we only represent 44 per cent. of the membership of the county councils." I am not going to enter into competition with the President on figures, because I think the President is capable of making figures prove almost anything. But, I am going to ask the President: did this Press organ tell the truth on that occasion or did it not? If it did, and I believe it did, then this scheme will definitely give the Government an advantage in the new Seanad which it is not entitled to get.
Although it may be possible that the President hit on this scheme just by accident, it happens that the scheme fits in nicely from the standpoint of achieving the Government's object of getting a majority in the Seanad. There is no doubt that it is clearly the Government's object to get a majority in the Seanad. I asked at the Special Committee that, in making the 11 nominations for the new Seanad, the President should be tied down at least to consult certain people. I did not care by what reference they were consulted. I did not care in what manner they were selected for consultation, but I wanted, at all events, to make sure that the President would be required to consult certain people, so that they would be able to say, if there was a scheme for putting 11 camp followers of the Government into the Seanad, that they dissented from that course. The Minister for Industry and Commerce said: "No, that cannot be done. It is necessary for the Taoiseach to have 11 nominations". I said that I was not objecting to his having 11 nominations, but that I required him to consult certain people before he actually made the nominations. I think it is the barest truth to say—and I think the members of the Committee will bear me out— that the Minister for Industry and Commerce stated that it was necessary for the Taoiseach to have those 11 nominations so as to make sure that the Government should get a sympathetic majority in the Seanad. They will get it now, even if the Taoiseach does not select 11 camp followers for nomination to the Seanad, because I believe that this scheme would give the Government a majority in the Seanad without resort to the other method of securing a majority there.
I object to the county council scheme as well on the ground that the county councils, particularly in existing circumstances, are not suitable bodies from which to constitute an electoral college. The present county councils are functioning outside their statutory period. There should have been a local election in June last, but it was not held. Now, apparently, we are going to allow the county councils, who ought to have rendered an account of their stewardship to the people last June, and who are now out of date under our normal electoral legislation, to constitute an electoral college for the purpose of electing a new Seanad. Whatever merit there might be in this scheme, the merit, I suggest, would be a little better if we had a recent county council election which might in some way claim to express the viewpoint of the people. I suggest that county councils, which are now functioning outside their statutory period, which were elected approximately three and a half years ago, are not suitable bodies in any circumstances from which to constitute an electoral college. The county councils have very definite functions in regard to municipal matters and I think that there is quite considerable scope for their activities in dealing with these matters. It was never contemplated in respect to the functions of county councils that they would also be constituted as part of an electoral college for the purpose of electing a Second House, and I think it is quite wrong to bring them in for that purpose. It can only be justified if you want to say definitely that a certain political result is desired and this is the best and most convenient way to get it.
The bringing in of the county councils will lead to all sorts of anomalies. Certain local authorities have been dissolved by the Minister for Local Government on the ground that they were not able to deal with their business satisfactorily, that they were not administering their affairs efficiently, and that, consequently, it was necessary to remove them and put in a commissioner instead. These county councils, according to the Minister for Local Government, have been adjudged incapable of administering municipal affairs; have been adjudged to be inefficient from a municipal point of view; they will not be allowed to repair a single labourer's cottage or to build a single cottage. But, for the purpose of this Bill, these county councils, declared to be inefficient and incapable of managing their own affairs by the Minister for Local Government, are to be reconstituted for the purpose of forming portion of the electoral college. I do not know on what grounds it is sought to justify an arrangement of that kind. These people are prevented from functioning as municipal authorities. They are prevented from exercising any jurisdiction in mere municipal matters but they are regarded as quite capable and competent to elect a Second House of the Oireachtas. I should like the President to explain and justify an arrangement of that kind.
The amendment which the Labour Party has moved to this Bill is one based on an electorate of the Dáil. On the Second Stage of the Bill we indicated that we desired the Seanad to be constituted by Dáil nominations and a Dáil electorate. At the meeting of the Select Committee we submitted a scheme providing for Dáil nominations and a Dáil electorate, and we are now, on the Committee Stage of the Bill, in favour of that scheme. All kinds of efforts, mainly motivated by political considerations, have been made to try to misrepresent the position of the Labour Party in that connection, but on this stage of the Bill we have come back and submitted here the same type of amendments that we submitted in Committee, and we are expressing the same points of view as were expressed on these benches on the Second Stage of the Bill. We prefer a scheme of nomination by the Dáil and a scheme of election by the Dáil. Our proposals in respect to Dáil nominations have been defeated. This amendment which I have moved now represents an effort by us to confine the electorate to the Dáil on the grounds that a Dáil electorate functioning under the principles of proportional representation will, in our opinion, give the country a much more satisfactory type of Seanad than can be got by this hotch-potch mess of an electoral college which is constituted by the new scheme of bringing in the county councils, and even of renewing dissolved county councils.
We would prefer a Dáil electorate, because I think you would have an electorate here which is more in touch with the people, and which is probably much more representative of the people's point of view than the county councils. The present Dáil is elected on the basis of universal adult suffrage. The county councils are not elected on the basis of universal suffrage as applicable to our adult population. The present county councils were elected on a property franchise, and faced with the choice of deciding whether to allow the Seanad electorate to be constituted of those elected to this House on the basis of adult suffrage, or of those elected on a property franchise to the county councils, the President banks on an electoral college based on property franchise. I think a Dáil electorate is a much more suitable electorate for the purpose of electing a new Seanad, firstly, because I think the Dáil is much more in touch with the people; secondly, because I think it is in touch with a greater number of people because of the manner in which it is elected; and, thirdly, because this Dáil has been elected much more recently than the county councils. In the scheme envisaged for electing Seanads of the future, the Dáil will be much more in touch with the people than county councils, because, in point of time, the elections to both Houses will almost agree, and the Dáil will be almost freshly selected by the people to represent them in this House of the Oireachtas.
We have been asked to consider a scheme now which was never thought of on any of the other stages of the Bill. We are being asked to consider a scheme which was never thought of by the Government and which was certainly never mentioned by the Government when the Select Committee was functioning. We are asked to consider this scheme now even though such an important Minister as the Minister for Industry and Commerce submitted to the Select Committee, a scheme contained in annex D. of the report, which provided that the electorate should be as either proposed in the Draft Bill or be members of the Dáil. I think the President will hardly deny that in discussing the merits of that proposal he indicated that he had no great feelings one way or the other. It was frequently stated by the Government representatives sitting on that Committee that there was general acknowledgement that a Dáil electorate was preferable to the Dáil plus certain unsuccessful candidates at the last election. The scheme by which the electorate will be confined to the Dáil would not be an unfair scheme to the Government Party, or to any other Party in this House, and I suggest therefore, that as the President's Bill was originally conceived on what was virtually a Dáil electorate, that as the Government's point of view before the Committee was based on a Dáil electorate and that as the whole point of view in connection with the election, as displayed at many periods, until the Government's amendments came to light, was in favour of a Dáil electorate, the President should now abandon this county council scheme and get back to the Dáil electorate envisaged in the main in his own Bill, particularly as the proposal was definitely supported by his own Party in the Select Committee. The county council scheme is an unfair scheme, a grossly unfair scheme from the point of view of the Labour Party. Its merits to the Government, in my opinion, are that it will give them a majority in the Seanad, a majority which they could not get by the operation of proportional representation in this House. We had letters in the Press from the Minister for Finance and other folk on this matter of paying obeisance to the virtues of proportional representation. This amendment is now an effort to have the electorate confined to the Dáil and to having the Seanad elected by the Dáil on the basis of proportional representation. If there is all this admiration that, at least, we read of in the Press for proportional representation what is the objection to accepting this amendment? If the Government will not accept the amendment, I for one can only come to the conclusion that this scheme has been designed to suit the political exigencies of the Government and that that is the reason that in their eyes it is preferable to a Dáil electorate.