Committee on Finance. - Vote 49—Science and Art. – Dáil Éireann (9th Dáil) – Thursday, 3 Feb 1938

Committee on Finance. - Vote 49—Science and Art.

An tAire Oideachais (Tomás O Deirg)

Tairgim:

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £9,500 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1938, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí. na bhFundúireachtaí Eolaíochta agus Ealadhan agus chun Seirbhísí Oideachais Ilghnéitheacha áirithe agus Ildeontaisí-i-gCabhair, etc.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £9,500 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1938, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Institutions of Science and Art for certain Miscellaneous Educational Services and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

Seamus O Diolúin

Ní fhuair mé cóip den mheastachán so i nGaedhilg agus tá an tAire tar éis é léigheamh amach as Gaedhilg. Caidé an fáth go bhfuil an tAire ag cur an meastacháin os ar gcomhair as Gaedhilg? Níl an meastachán agam ach i mBearla.

Tomás O Deirg

Is i mBearla atá an Paipéir Bán agus, de bhrigh sin, ní féidir an meastachán do thabhairt dos na Teachtaí i nGaedhilg.

Seamus O Diolúin

Má cuireann an tAire an rún os ar gcomhair i nGaedhilg, is ceart cóip do bheith againn san teangan san.

Tomás O Deirg

Táim ag tabhairt an cuntais i nGaedhilg agus beidh an Meastachán san dTuarasgabháil Oifigiúil i nGaedhilg agus i mBearla.

Seamus O Diolúin

San páipéar atá os mo chomhair, tá sé curtha síos i mBearla.

An Ceann Comhairle

Tá cead ag an Aire an Meastachán do thairg i nGaedhilg, má's maith leis é.

Pádraig O Hogáin

"Consistency" 'seadh é sin.

Tomás O Deirg

Sa mbliadhain 1937-38 ceapadh £11,000 ins na Meastacháin i gcóir an Vóta seo. Rinne na clódóirí níos mó oibre ná bhí súil leis agus b'éigean breis airgid a chaitheamh thar mar bhí ceaptha. Meastar, dá bhrí sin, go mbeidh £8,500 ag teastáil le n-íoc as clódóireacht agus ceangail leabhar a déanfar roimh an 31adh lá de Márta seo chugainn. Beidh £3,000 le n-íoc le h-ughdair leabhar agus le h-aistrightheoirí freisin, roimh deire na ráithe seo.

Dá réir sin ní mór socrú dhéanamh i gcóir £22,500 de chaitheachas ar fad. Spáráileadh £2,000 ar choda eile den Vóta agus níltear ag iarraidh ar an Dáil anois ach £9,500 a sholáthar.

De'n £22,500 (caithmeachas iomlán) is chun clódóireachta, páipéir, ceangail, etc. £18,000. Iad so leanas roinnt de na fáthanna atá leis an mbreis mhór:—

(a) Beidh íocaíochta le h-aghaidh cúig ráithe (1 Eanair, 1937 go dtí 31 Márta, 1938) le déanamh taobh istigh de'n bhliain airgeadais 1/4/'37-31/3/'38. An t-atharú ó Dheóntas Cabhrach go dtí gnáth-fhó-cheann de'n Vóta fé ndear é seo.

(b) Tugadh roimh-dheontaisí suas le £5,000 do na chlódóirí le h-aghaidh leabhra ná raibh críochnuighthe taobh istigh de'n bhliain airgeadais. Nós nua é seo.

(d) Méaduigheadh líon na leabhar is píosaí ceoil atá ar n-a bhfoillsiú. Foillsigheadh 67 leabhar agus 25 píosaí ceoil i 1936/37. Táthar ag súil le 78 leabhair agus 60 píosaí ceoil chur ar an margadh i 1937/38.

I gcomhair íocaíochtaí le h-ughdair, aistrightheoirí, cumadóirí, táille choipchirt, taillí léightheoirí láimh-scríbhinní, £3,500 de'n fhuighleach; agus cosnóchaid eagarthóireacht na lss. san R.I.A. etc. timcheall £1,000 san bhliain. Fághaltas ó na leabhra do díoladh 1/7/36 go dtí 30/6/37, £1,701. Sin an cuntas deiridh atá le fághail.

Mr. Dillon

How does the Minister explain the proposal to publish Irish music under the Vote? I understood that those moneys were intended for the provision of Irish texts so that pupils might have adequate texts on which to work, and that scholars might be facilitated in publishing manuscripts which it would not be an economic proposition to publish on commercial lines. What do we mean by Irish music? Surely we are branching out into a very much wider sphere now than the publishing of ordinary Irish texts? Is it proposed to collect traditional airs which have hitherto been unrecorded, and set them down, or is it suggested that we are to publish slip jigs in convenient form? I do not think really that it is proper use of public money at all to publish modern music such as is habitually played by dance bands or the like. I think everyone would be sympathetic with a proposal to collect traditional music on the lines on which Béaloideas is working at the present time, but I have heard of no such scheme, and I did not understand the Minister to outline any such scheme in the course of his observations.

I should be glad to know also from the Minister if this money will be mainly used in the preparation of books which in his judgment are suitable for schools, or is it proposed to design something more on the lines of library books, or will the bulk of the money be used in the preparation of manuscripts which up to date have not been transcribed? If he proposes to spend most of the money in the transcription of manuscripts, I should be glad to know from him whether he does not think that the best way to expend money of that kind would be to make grants-in-aid, without liability to account for them, to the Royal Irish Academy. So far as I am aware, that body is continually seeking an opportunity to publish valuable manuscripts, and valuable matter relating to the Irish language, and the historical culture of this nation, such as it is, and so far as I am aware, they are constantly embarrassed by the scarcity of money. If we are going to spend money on this kind of work, surely disinterested persons who have been cheerfully working in this cause without any thought of reward, persons who have behind them a long tradition of unselfish service, are the best kind of people for doing work of this kind? Recently it has become the practice to delegate those functions to civil servants. I yield to none in my admiration of the zeal and energy of our civil servants, but I do not think that their particular vocation pre-eminently suits them for this kind of work. When we have an institution such as the Royal Irish Academy there to our hand, and when we know that they are greatly harassed and handicapped through want of money, surely we would be very much wiser to pass this money over to them, and tell them to carry on the work in the same spirit in which they have been doing it for the last 150 years.

Mr. Dockrell

There is one matter to which I should like to call the attention of the Minister. I notice that this vote amounts to £61,000 odd. The provision for the purchase of specimens is I think somewhere about £1,500. That is something in the nature of 2½ per cent., so that for every £1 spent on science and art, we spend between 6d. and 9d. in the purchase of new specimens. Of course, it is undoubted that in some years there may be a dearth of specimens, and in other years quite a glut of specimens, which it would be desirable for the authorities to purchase, may come on the market. I should like to ask the Minister if there is any restraint placed upon the museum authorities as to what sum they will spend in any given year? It is quite obvious that it would be very difficult to work according to the results of an average over a previous number of years if something very rare and choice came on the market. We have recently heard of the purchase of articles which probably it would have been desirable for the National museum authorities to secure. Of course, in many cases the museum authorities may not hear that those articles are on the market until after they are purchased. At the same time, it does seem that £1,500 is a ridiculously small sum, and the position is still more absurd if any restraint, within narrow margins, is placed upon the sum which the authorities can spend on new specimens in each year. If that is done, we will come to think of the museum as a place in which they have ceased adding to their store, and where they merely preserve what has been handed down to them.

Mr. Hogan

I should like to say a word of appreciation of the valuable service rendered by the Gúm to Irish literature in the publications that have come from it, but I fancy that more than proportional attention is paid to the school reader — that is to the pupil. We have a flood of books for school children; that is very desirable, very useful and very valuable. On the other hand, we have English classical literature translated into Irish, while there is no interest taken in what one might call the average run of readers. Most people who have passed their school days are not anxious to go back and read what is prepared for the students. Everyone does not want to read classical literature. Some of it is very dry and uninteresting, and has not very much of the human touch about it. I am asking the Minister if he has ever considered the man who buys a magazine and reads it on the train? Has he ever considered the man who buys a 6d. magazine, reads the short story that is in it, reads the good or bad piece of poetry that is in it, and reads the article that is in it? Is there not a vast body of people not touched by the Department's publications? Before now I ventured to suggest that the Minister ought to engage in the publication of a 6d. monthly magazine, which would give the usual short stories, the usual serial or full novel, the usual piece of poetry and the usual article on current topics. Would not that be a desirable thing? You would get the average traveller, the average man and woman, the average boy and girl to read it, and bring the language into the ordinary life of the people. I would like the Minister, therefore, to consider that matter in regard to the expenditure of this money.

Mr. Linehan

I should like to be quite clear as to what exactly is meant here by Irish music? I cannot say that I am sufficiently versed in the Irish language to follow the Minister fully through his whole statement, but I should like to know what is meant by the preparation and publication of Irish music — whether that means the publication of existing Irish music, publications put into cheap form, of old airs and old collections of Irish music that are not easily available to the public, or whether the phrase "Irish music" would cover some such case as that of somebody here in Dublin composing a tune in the latest "swing" style, called something like "The Moon Rising Over the Pillar?" Would a composition of that kind come under the heading of Irish music? The increase in the Estimate represents a pretty substantial amount, £11,500, and I should like to be clear as to what is meant by Irish music. Then there is the question of An Gúm. As far as I can see, the Gúm publications do not reach the ordinary individual at all. As Deputy Hogan says, there are the school readers and the classics. Now, the classics published by An Gúm were books that are already well-known to people generally in the English language, and unless it were merely a matter of improving one's knowledge of the Irish language, the ordinary individual would not want to read the book over again in Irish. I suggest that some publications in Irish that would be of interest to the general public would be of far more value than anything like that. I would even suggest to the Minister that if he had power to compel the daily Press to put their racing tips into Irish, he would get far more valuable results for the Irish language in three months than the Gúm has achieved so far.

Mr. Derrig

I think that Deputy Dillon must not be aware that since the Gúm, as it is called, was established, its chief function has been the publication of works of general literature in Irish. I have here a list of these works and an account of the sales during the period up to 30th September last, and I find that 162,445 books of general literature have been sold. In addition to that, an important function of the publications branch is the preparation and publication of text-books in Irish for the use of secondary schools, and under that heading we have sold up to the date I have mentioned 99,781 books. So that, although much remains still to be done in securing a wider market for books published in Irish, I think the results so far have been fairly satisfactory.

Mr. Dillon

How many titles are there in their general literature?

Mr. Derrig

The number is 307. With regard to music, the intention is to publish arrangements or settings of original Irish airs as far as possible. I dare say that if a new composer swims into our ken, who is capable of doing for native Irish music what has been done in other countries by composers like the Hungarian composers of the present day or the Russian composers of some time back, it would be a question whether such a composer would be passed as being really true to the Irish genius or whether he had forsaken the native music for modern modes: but that circumstance has not arisen.

Mr. Dillon

An Gúm passing judgment on Sibelius!

Mr. Derrig

However, as things are at present, we are confined to arrangements by comparatively few composers, such as Carl Hardebeck. I think most of the work that has been published up to the present has come from him, and the public is familiar with it. I am quite satisfied that any work that is submitted and eventually accepted and published will be of a good standard, because we have a committee of experienced musical experts, gentlemen of high repute in this country, and submissions have to be passed by them before they can be published. I do not know that this Estimate refers to the matter to which Deputy Dockrell referred. It is confined strictly to the question of publications in Irish. I am grateful to Deputy Hogan for his words of appreciation in regard to the work of An Gúm. Nobody except a person who is closely in touch with the work, like myself, can appreciate the tremendous amount of work that the staff of that branch of the Department of Education have done in preparing manuscripts for the Press, in correcting them and going over them, and in giving advice to the authors, who are not very experienced writers and who require a good deal of assistance before their works can be passed eventually.

I do not think it would be feasible to publish a monthy magazine. It would not have that freedom of expression, nor that freedom to discuss public matters and controversial subjects, if it were under Departmental control, that an independent organ would have, and therefore I do not think it would be a success. I hope that Deputies will do what they can, as the service is an expensive one but is, nevertheless, very essential in the revival of the Irish language, to secure wider recognition for the work of An Gúm, and a better sale for the books that are published by them.

Mr. Dillon

Might I suggest to the Minister giving part of this money to the Royal Irish Academy where the desire is to publish Irish manuscripts?

Mr. Derrig

I omitted to mention that a scheme has been passed already and £1,000 is being made available under this Estimate — I mentioned it when speaking in Irish — in connection with the scheme for the publication of manuscripts at present in the Royal Irish Academy. I am sure that any proposals put up by the academy to the Government for further assistance in doing the very valuable work that it was intended the academy should do for the furtherance of Irish scholarship will receive sympathetic attention, and of course I shall be only too happy to give all assistance possible if any proposals are made.

Mr. Dillon

In connection with any money that may be made available for the Royal Irish Academy, I suggest to the Minister that it would simplify matters immensely if the Minister would get from the Academy an outline of their plan and then leave the academy with a wide discretion for carrying that plan into operation. I have no experience of the relations actually existing between the academy and the Government, but my experience of similar transactions is that the Department of Finance regulation require the Minister to make all sorts of stipulations and get all sorts of undertakings when it is a question of spending Government money. Of course, we can very well understand that, ordinarily, that is the proper course to pursue, because the accounts must be submitted to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, but there are exceptional cases where the Minister concerned comes to Parliament and asks leave to hand over money to a trusted body and deliberately exempts that body from the obligation of accounting for that money in detail. Might I suggest to the Minister that he should invite the Royal Irish Academy to submit schemes to him with a view to having the required amount provided by the Department of Finance without the stipulation that every penny must be accounted for in accordance with the usual Department of Finance regulations? I think that if he does that and gets the cooperation of the Department of Finance in coming before the House to ask for money on these terms, it will be readily forthcoming from all sides.

Mr. Linehan

I do not wish to press the Minister on the point I mentioned previously, but I should like to know whether he could help me on that point in connection with modern music. I am quite serious on the matter. The Minister says that at present we are confined to arrangements by comparatively few composers, like Carl Hardebeck. The possibility I want to put to the Minister is that the term "Irish music" might be interpreted in many different forms. It might be music by an Irish composer, or music in the Irish traditional line. The point is that, supposing in the near future we have a composer in this country who composes popular music, not of the Irish traditional style, but rather of the modern style, any of the popular types of modern music, will the Minister say whether the works of that Irish composer would come under the head of Irish music and would be permitted for publication by An Gúm? If the composer composed that type of popular Irish music, would it be published under this heading?

Mr. Dockrell

The Minister did not answer the query I put to him in reference to the purchase of specimens. I was anxious to find out whether the authorities were rationed to the £1,500 or whether this was the amount that had been expended on articles which they thought in their judgment should be acquired in the national interest.

Dáil Éireann debate - Thursday, 3 Feb 1938

Committee on Finance. - Vote 49—Science and Art.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Feb 1938