Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Feb 1938

Vol. 70 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 71—Repayment of Dáil Éireann External Loans.

Minister for Finance (Mr. MacEntee)

I move: —

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £9,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1938, chun caiteachais i dtaobh Iasachtaí Coigríche Dháil Éireann d'Aisíoc.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £9,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st March, 1938, for expenditure on or in connection with the repayment of the Dáil Éireann External Loans.

This is the final Estimate in this matter, we hope. The files and accounts, and everything else in connection with it, have now been returned to us and, I think, are receiving the attention of the Comptroller and Auditor-General and will be reported to the Dáil in due course. There is just one new sub-head in this, and it is to provide for the repayment of Dáil Éireann Loan Bonds which were issued in the Argentine to the extent, I think, of £700. Some residents in the Argentine applied for repayment, and we propose to repay them on the same terms as were provided for in connection with the Dáil Eireann External Loans.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister tells us that this is the last Estimate that is going to be introduced, he hopes, in connection with the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loans. Could he now tell us how much money the Irish Press got out of the transactions in connection with the repayment of these loans?

Mr. MacEntee

That does not arise.

Mr. Dillon

Indeed, it does. We have been supporting Votes here which are largely for the purpose of shovelling money into the coffers of the Irish Press. This, I think, is the third Vote that has been brought in for the purpose of shovelling money into the coffers of the Irish Press.

Mr. MacEntee

The Dáil has already decided that the Dáil Eireann Loans shall be repaid and, therefore, this question of whether or not we should be justified in repaying the money does not arise.

Mr. Dillon

I am not saying that you are not justified in repaying it. You have the law on your side and, therefore, you are quite entitled to shovel the money into the coffers of the Irish Press, since you got the Fianna Fáil majority in this House to give you the money in order to enable you to shovel it into the coffers of the Irish Press. I quite agree that you are within the law in doing so, and I agree that it was by no means the most outrageous thing that the Fianna Fáil Party have done. You shovelled money into the Roscrea factory.

Mr. MacEntee

Surely, everything cannot be the most outrageous thing?

Mr. Dillon

I want to know how much of this money was spent in shovelling money into the coffers of the Irish Press, and I respectfully submit, Sir, that I have a right to know it.

Mr. MacEntee

On a point of order, Sir, may I point out that the Dáil Eireann External Loans Act provides for the repayment of this money, and if the Deputy desires to raise a question in connection with that Act, then he can raise it in another way. As to the information for which he asks, I cannot give him that information because I do not know the destination in each case of the moneys concerned, nor would I propose to examine every application that has been made for repayment in order to satisfy myself as to what the ultimate destination of the money may be.

Mr. Dillon

I do not want to know anything about the destination of the money, except in the case of the Irish Press. Certain moneys were got through Mr. de Valera.

Mr. MacEntee

Mr. de Valera was not a subscriber.

Mr. Dillon

That is the scandal of it. Having collared the money — of course, I accept Mr. de Valera's word that he did not retain a penny of it for his personal pocket—he transferred it all over to the Irish Press and it has all gone into their coffers and has been kept there for the last two or three years. How much of the money concerned here was spent in short-circuiting that money into the coffers of the Government kept paper? That journal, of course, blushes quite prettily whenever it is referred to as the kept paper of the Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is quite clear that we are not to discuss the Irish Press in this connection.

Mr. Dillon

Why not, Sir?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have allowed the Deputy to——

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps, Sir, I might paraphrase the sub-head concerned by saying that it is for expenses in connection with the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loans for the purpose of making up the deficit on the Irish Press accounts?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is not here.

Mr. Dillon

I am submitting that it ought to be here.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not to discuss any journal in connection with this Vote.

Mr. Dillon

Even though that journal has quartered itself on the public funds with the active connivance of the Government of the day.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is an item here before the House —"expenses in connection with the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loans." We may discuss the item in relation to that.

Mr. Dillon

I accept that ruling, Sir, without reservation. To 99 per cent. of people the "repayment" of this loan must mean, and the actual words used must mean the giving back to somebody something that that person had. That is the obvious meaning. But in the present astonishing connection it means the giving back to somebody something that he never had or had never seen before in his life. We are giving to the Irish Press the moneys which were advanced by Irish emigrants in America. I agree that President de Valera got the assent of those emigrants to that——

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy agrees.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, but I suggest he got it under misrepresentation. I believe that these people, when they assigned the bonds, believed and they were led by his Party to believe——

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Surely that does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

I am merely asking that the House be told how much of this £8,300 was used in paying this money to the Irish Press. I do not question what the President did. I merely recited the history that led up to the payment of this money into the coffers of the Irish Press. How much of this £8,300 has been spent in paying this money to the bankrupt coffers of the Irish Press? The Irish Press could not float without this money.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The financial position of the Irish Press does not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

It could not arise without it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

An expression of that kind should not be addresed to the Chair. The position of the Irish Press does not arise on this.

Mr. MacEntee

The Deputy has said that all this money went into the coffers of the Irish Press.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, as much as they could get their claws on. How many unfortunate subscribers in the United States of America were wheedled into handing over their money in this way?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It does not arise on this. Legislation on this matter was passed by the House. I have allowed the Deputy to proceed so far. The question now is as to whether the amount of money asked for on this Vote reached the people for whom it was intended and who were entitled to it. Nothing else arises.

Mr. Dillon

Is this a method of paying money to the Irish Press?

Mr. T. Kelly

Two years ago the entire strength of the Opposition, with their big guns, fired all these things at the President here in this House, and he denied the whole story.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise either.

Mr. Kelly

No, but Deputy Dillon will get all this into the Press and that is all he wants.

Mr. Dillon

Perhaps the Minister will tell us what portion of this money went to paying these loans to the Irish Press.

Mr. McGowan

I presume this is in connection with the repayment of the Dáil Eireann External Loan. Now a certain amount of this loan has gone to the Irish Press. As a result of that, has any additional expense been incurred by the Department of Finance?

Mr. MacEntee

No. And may I put this to the Deputy — I have no knowledge as to where this money went. I have had no personal connection with the repayment of it. It was paid out through the heads of my Department. We are not concerned about the destination of the money. All we are concerned with is if the person who makes a good title has the money repaid to him — whomsoever establishes that title. I do not know whether the money went to the Irish Press, Independent, or Irish Times, or to any other person inside or outside this country.

Mr. Dillon

Full well the Minister knows it.

Mr. MacEntee

I am prepared to give the House all the information at my disposal. £520,000 of these loans has been repaid and if the Deputy believes that that £520,000 went into the coffers of the Irish Press, he is welcome to believe it.

Mr. Dillon

What was spent on making the title to it?

Mr. MacEntee

The title to the moneys was established in accordance with the law of this country.

Mr. Corry

I certainly object most emphatically to the manner in which this House has been used by Deputy Dillon to throw slurs at those people who were patriotic enough at a time when this country was in a difficulty to subscribe money to the Dáil Eireann External Loan.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That does not arise either. The patriotism or the financial perspicacity of these people does not arise now.

Mr. Corry

I say it is only worthy of the individual who used the dirty Mollie Maguire politics which he has never got out of his system because he was suckled on them.

Mr. T. Kelly

He was.

Vote put and agreed to.