Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Feb 1938

Vol. 70 No. 4

Committee on Finance. - Vote 57—Industry and Commerce.

Mr. MacEntee

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £10 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1938, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí Oifig an Aire Tionnscail agus Tráchtála, maraon le Coiste Comhairlitheach na Rátaí, agus Ildeontaisí-i-gCabhair.

That a Supplementary sum not exceeding £10 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1938, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Industry and Commerce, including the Rates Advisory Committee, and sundry Grants-in-Aid.

While the Minister is coming — he has had a heavy day — I will endeavour to tell the House what these sub-heads are principally required for. The excess in sub-head H (3) arises from the fact that during the year, after the Estimates had been prepared, the Minister for Industry and Commerce was elected as President of the International Labour Conference which opened at Geneva on 3rd June, 1937. His personal attendance there and the fact that he held that honourable position involved the delegation in additional expense to the amount of £505. The Minister is here now to deal with the Vote.

Mr. Dillon

We have just been listening to the statement of the Minister for Finance about the honours conferred on the Minister for Industry and Commerce by his appointment as Chairman of the International Labour Conference.

Mr. Lemass

The Minister for Finance has dealt with the circumstances relating to one sub-head, in connection with the expenses of the Irish delegation to the International Labour Conference at Geneva. The second sub-head makes additional provision for minerals exploration. The Department has undertaken the exploration of the gypsum deposits in the Kingscourt-Carrickmacross area, County Cavan. Gypsum, as Deputies are aware, is a substance which has become of considerable importance as an industrial raw material. It is known there are substantial deposits of gypsum in that area, and we are undertaking this exploration for the purpose of investigating their extent and the consistency of the quality of the deposit throughout its entire extent. The exploration is necessary as a preliminary to any proposal for the development of the deposit or the establishment of any of the industries which use gypsum as a raw material.

The third sub-head deals with the provision of an Irish pavilion at the Glasgow Exhibition this year. It was decided that Ireland should participate officially in the exhibition, following an official invitation to take part which was received some time ago. A suitable site on the ground of the exhibition has been placed at the disposal of the Government, free of charge, and on that site a pavilion is being erected. It is intended that the pavilion shall contain a suitable array of exhibits relating to various aspects of our national life. The building has been designed by a firm of Dublin architects, and the construction of it is now under way.

The total cost of construction, together with incidental charges, such as architects' fees, quantity surveyors' fees and legal expenses, is estimated at £4,400. We have to have the building complete before the end of March, so as to enable the interior decoration and the arrangement of the exhibits to be completed before the opening, which is fixed for 3rd May. It is intended that the exhibits in the pavilion will relate, not merely to our industrial and agricultural production, but will also cover the social, cultural, and other aspects of our national life in such a way as to give the visitor to the pavilion a general impression of the progress of this country in these various spheres. It is not possible at the moment to give a precise estimate of the total cost of participation in the Exhibition, but it is not expected to exceed £20,000. The present Vote covers the proportion of the total expenditure which, it is estimated, will become payable in the present financial year. That includes the £4,400 I mentioned on account of the cost of constructing the pavilion and incidental charges, and £1,600 on account of the cost of preparing and dispatching exhibits, as well as a provision of £500 for publicity expenses.

Mr. Dillon

These three sub-heads are all extremely interesting in their own way. With regard to sub-head H (3), it was a source of satisfaction to many of us that the Minister should preside over the International Labour Organisation deliberations in Geneva, as it was a source of satisfaction to us that the President of the Executive Council, as he then was, should preside over the plenary session of the League of Nations on an earlier occasion. As I read of their respective activities, I could not help asking if either of these gentlemen, as he marched to his seat as a representative of an independent and sovereign State, put himself the question whether he was there by virtue of institutions the establishment of which he denounced as a supreme act of treachery to the historic Irish nation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Oh!

Mr. Dillon

I have a perfect right to ask that question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is absolutely irrelevant.

Mr. Dillon

This money is being paid because the Minister went to Geneva to preside over the International Labour Organisation.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The question as to the basis or agreement on which that was done does not arise.

Mr. Dillon

Then, what can we discuss?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It is not within my province to answer that question.

Mr. Dillon

I should like to ask in what capacity the Minister for Industry and Commerce went there if it was not as a representative of a sovereign State. I invite him to dwell, reflect and cogitate upon that and, when he has done so, to give his less responsible colleagues behind, who have swallowed his pabulum, a taste of, and a short exercise in, digesting and learning the common sense he has learned about many of the things he has come to understand in the last five or six years. Then, if he would summon up a bit of courage, he might slip into the Prime Minister's room and tell him that it was time for him to turn these things over in his mind as well.

With regard to the gypsum deposits, suppose valuable deposits of gypsum are found in this area, I think it is true to say they will vest in the Land Commission or in the State. Is it then propose to give concessions to individuals to exploit these deposits, or how does the State intend to permit the exploitation of these deposits? Surely, if you want to exploit deposits which are vested in the nation, you are expected to put up sufficient money to do the prospecting yourself. Then, if you find, as a result of your exploration, valuable deposits, it is reasonable that you should go on to ask for a concession to exploit what has been discovered through your enterprise. If the Government is going to do all the speculative part of the business, then I think we ought seriously to consider whether it would be proper to allow any private company to capitalise a speculation undertaken under public auspices. I should be glad if the Minister would tell us what the intention of the Government is with regard to the exploitation of these deposits, if such deposits are found.

Now we are going to the Glasgow Exhibition and I am sure Deputy Tom Kelly will be there.

Mr. T. Kelly

I will not.

Mr. Dillon

The pavilion would not be complete without him. However, if he is going to decorate the exhibition, I should like him to spend his time between now and the 3rd May in determining whether he will go as an Irish Republican or as a member of the Commonwealth, or in what particular capacity he will welcome visitors to the arcade.

Mr. Kelly

I shall bring the 15 poor men from Cobh.

Mr. Brasier

It is like the Deputy to sneer at the poor. That is the policy of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Dillon

I think that the members of Fianna Fáil ought to bend their minds to consideration of this matter, which is a very important matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It may be very important, but its relevancy is very doubtful.

Mr. Dillon

I make the submission that it is strictly relevant. Only members of the Commonwealth of Nations are entitled to erect pavilions at that exhibition. This exhibition is strictly confined to members of the Commonwealth of Nations. I see on the other side Deputy Munnelly, who has torn passion to latters through the Province of Connaught regarding his inflexible resolution to burst the bonds of the British Empire asunder. What is Deputy Munnelly going to do now? Is he going over to Glasgow to take a whirl there? I see a dashing Deputy of the Fianna Fáil Party from West Donegal on the opposite benches who has often undertaken to destroy the base, bloody and brutal British Empire.

Seán O Munadhile

Tá go leór againn de'n chainnt sin.

Mr. Dillon

Will Deputy Munnelly deny he is a dyed-in-the-wool republican from the top of his head to the soles of his feet?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The political convictions of Deputies from Donegal or elsewhere do not arise on this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

The constitutional status of this country is absolutely vital to the consideration of this Estimate, because this payment will be nugatory unless we are members of the Commonwealth of Nations when this exhibition opens. Deputy Munnelly has warned us that he is going to burst the bonds of empire asunder, and I want to ask him if he intends to burst these bonds before the 3rd May.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The matter cannot be discussed on this Estimate.

Mr. Dillon

If we are not members of the Commonwealth of Nations on the 3rd May, this payment will be nugatory. I want to know if we are going to be members of the Commonwealth of Nations on the 3rd May.

Mr. T. Kelly

We shall be amongst fellow-Gaels.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What is involved in this Estimate is the amount of money to be provided. The constitutional issue does not arise.

Mr. Dillon

I want to make sure that this Vote of £6,500 will not be rendered nugatory. If we are not members of the Commonwealth on the 3rd May, this expenditure will be nugatory. I want to know if Deputy Munnelly thinks his Herculean efforts will succeed in bursting the bonds before the 3rd May. Deputy Brian Brady has announced that he is going to sweep the British Fleet off the seas of Ireland.

Mr. Brady

We swept you from Donegal.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Brady declared that, come what may, he would declare a Republic in Killybegs. I want to know if he is going to do that before the 3rd May because, if he is, there is no use in voting this money. Deputy Moylan, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Industry and Commerce, has been threatening to declare a Republic for the last 20 years.

Mr. Moylan

Before I ever heard of you, I did things, not talked about them.

Mr. Dillon

Will the Deputy consent to postpone action until after the 3rd May, and is he going over to Glasgow? He will, of course, follow in the footsteps of his chief. Whenever the Minister for Industry and Commerce persuades anybody to build a factory, even the Roscrea meat factory——

Mr. Corry

I hope you will be boiled down there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Corry must conduct himself. No constitutional issue is involved in the consideration of this Estimate. The only question the House is interested in discussing is the amount of money that is being provided. Deputy Dillon will have to address himself to that question or cease speaking.

Mr. Dillon

I have departed from the constitutional aspect. I merely want to ask if Deputy Moylan is going over to open the exhibition. Even if his chief goes down to open a dead meat factory in Roscrea, he opens it with a golden key. I was wondering if Deputy Moylan would go over to Glasgow to open the exhibition there with a golden key.

Mr. Smith

We will send over our Jimmy

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Moylan would look very nice there, and I am sure we should all excuse him if he undertook to postpone his threatened declaration of a Republic until he had opened the exhibition with a golden key. If we provide him now with £6,500 to build this pavilion, will he not do us the kindness to go over with the Minister and open it? We can promise him in anticipation——

Mr. Moylan

Will you go as an exhibit?

Mr. Dillon

I have not the slightest doubt that Dr. Elliott, the Secretary of State for Scotland, will invite him. He will have a lovely time in Glasgow if he goes there, and I suggest he ought to consider it. I am sure the House will feel indebted to Deputy Moylan if he would undertake that duty on their behalf. He would look extremely well. There is this snag about it, and I think I am bound to warn him of this before he goes: If he opens this Exhibition in Glasgow he will be expected to wear a top hat——

Mr. Moylan

No, kilts.

Mr. Smith

We will send the Deputy over with a label, "Our Jimmy."

Mr. Moylan

Would you not say, "Dismal Jimmy"?

Mr. O'Brien

I should like to express appreciation of the work of the Minister with reference to the International Labour Office. He has always taken a keen interest in the activities of that body, which is doing very important work, and we were all glad to see him presiding as president at its last meeting.

Mr. Dillon

Would the Minister deal with the point I raised in connection with exploration work?

Mr. Lemass

It is impossible to say by whom the actual commercial exploitation of these deposits will be undertaken, if commercial exploitation is proved to be possible. We have undertaken these mineral exploration activities in advance of the possibility of commercial exploitation. That was a change of policy. It was the policy of my predecessor to undertake mineral exploitation work only when he had in the background some private concern that was willing to engage in commercial activity if exploration work proved successful. I decided that, in our circumstances, a change of that policy was necessary and that we should ascertain the value, extent and quality of our mineral deposits first, and then, on the basis of our knowledge, seek to secure commercial development. That is what we are doing in this case. These deposits are being exploited to some extent at present. A company called Gypsum and Bricks, Ltd., is working there producing certain building materials from the gypsum, but the area of the deposits is fairly extensive and, of course, the commercial uses to which gypsum can be put are very considerable. I have given the matter some thought and if it is decided to utilise gypsum in some commercial enterprise, it might be necessary for the State to engage, directly or through some of these semi-State companies, in that activity in so far as we might not succeed in getting anyone, else to do it. For every commercial purpose, it would be much better if the gypsum were developed and treated by ordinary commercial entrepreneurs, and that being so, it is impossible to give the Deputy a clear answer to his question. In fact, some of these deposits are possibly in private ownership, while others are in State ownership, and I do not suppose it would be possible to get even now without very close research a clear statement as to where the ownership of the minerals rests. The same circumstances arose in Arigna when we were carrying out exploration work there, and they arose, and still exist, in Slieveardagh where we spent money on exploration work. We feel it is in the national interest to do this exploration work and contribute that amount to the possible commercial development of the deposits, and the provision of employment in the area of the deposits, irrespective of whether we got any return for the expenditure in a direct form to the national Exchequer in the end or not.

Mr. Dillon

I take it that if the Government discovered a valuable deposit of gypsum and sought to have it exploited by private enterprise, the concession for its exploitation would be put up to public tender and that there would be no question of its being handed over to a particular group?

Mr. Lemass

There are wide deposits there. Perhaps that does not explain the situation sufficiently. We have been continuously exploring the possibility of establishing certain industries here, and we have discussed them with parties that might be prepared to finance an undertaking. In relation to some of these possible industries, the questions arose: Is there a sufficiency of gypsum in the country and is that gypsum of the right quality? In order to answer these questions, we have to undertake these works. We will give the information to the parties concerned when we get it. They will then have to go out and secure the right to mine the minerals. They may have to secure it from the private owners or from the State. If they secure it from the State, the ordinary procedure under the Mines and Minerals Act will be followed.

Mr. Dillon

What are these industries the Minister has in mind?

Mr. Lemass

There are quite a number of purposes for which gypsum can be used.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister said that he thought of getting certain industries established in the State and that their establishment depended on whether there was sufficient gypsum in the State or not. What are these industries

Mr. Lemass

Gypsum is used in the manufacture of various building materials, in the production of certain qualities of cement and in the manufacture of plate-glass, certain classes of pottery and for certain agricultural purposes. It is also used in the manufacture of many kinds of paper, paints, certain chemical fertilisers and products like dental plaster and other more or less medical commodities of the kind. There is quite a wide field of commercial use for gypsum.

Mr. Dillon

The Minister speaks of its being used in the manufacture of crockery. Suppose one company, by private enterprise, has done all its own prospecting and has discovered deposits out of its own money, is it fair for the Government to come along and do all the expensive exploration work for some rival company?

Mr. Lemass

We are not doing it for any company.

Mr. Dillon

But your doing it makes it possible for any company to some in without having to do any of the preliminary expensive exploratory work which another Irish company did out of its own funds.

Mr. Lemass

That is hardly right. I give the example of Slieveardagh. In that case, we employed a firm of experts who carried out exploration work, and their report is available for anyone to see in the Geological Survey Office. I do not say that we are merely leaving the situation Like that, hoping that somebody will see the report and undertake the development of whatever deposits are there. We are going out actively to interest people in the matter, but it is nevertheless true to say that the report is there for anyone to see who wants to see it.

Mr. Dillon

What are the deposits in Slieveardagh?

Mr. Lemass

Mainly anthracite coal.

Mr. Brasier

There are certain deposits of silica well developed around Cloyne and the company concerned contemplate acquiring extra land for development. There is already development at Rostellan which is now idle. Would it not be possible to get that company to take over these Rostellan lands?

Mr. Lemass

Not under this Estimate, anyway.

Vote put and agreed to.

Report of Supplementary Estimates agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 6.50 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 16th February.