Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 31 Mar 1938

Vol. 70 No. 10

Committee On Finance. - Vote 63—Posts and Telegraphs (Resumed).

Mr. McMenamin

Deputy Hannigan seems to think that I misconstrued last night what he said. He says that he was only referring to the mechanical defects at the telephone exchange. I would be sorry to misinterpret what the Deputy said. It is significant to observe that when I was proceeding to give a specific case with regard to a call I booked for Donegal the day before, in order to prove what I said, I was asked if I announced I was a Deputy. I did not. I merely gave my telephone number. I was not here yesterday when the Minister made his statement and I did not then know what the position was with regard to the telegraph service. I told the Minister last year that what he called the "concession" he purported to give was almost certain not to lead anywhere. The Minister told the House yesterday, according to the newspaper reports, that the extension of the number of words from nine to 12 for a telegraph charge of a shilling would cost £10,000 per annum. How does he justify that statement? Has it not been proved now that the concession which the Minister gave last year has not led anywhere? Any Department of the State which purports to serve the community must give value, same as a citizen. Neither the Minister nor anybody else should ask the public to believe that to increase the telegraphic allowance from nine words to 12 words would cost £10,000. What about the income? Is there to be no increased income? You are not going to get increased telegraph work until you give value to the public and make the service attractive. Unless you are going to do that you had better close down the telegraph side of the business altogether. You are gradually driving the people off the telegraph. That may be the policy of the Post Office but what about the parts of the country —the poor parts—which have no telephone service? They have no means besides the telegraph of transmitting urgent messages. These people are sufficiently penalised already. In the delivery charge, you are imposing an unjustifiable tax upon them. The poorer people are and the further up the mountains they live, the higher is the delivery charge. If these people live five miles from a post office and get a message—frequently it is a message announcing the death of somebody belonging to them—it costs 1/6, 2/- or 2/6 for delivery. How can the Minister expect these poor people to pay 2/6 for the delivery of a telegram? I ask the Minister to adjust his charges. The people who live near post offices and who get their telegrams delivered free are people who would be able to pay for them. I do not understand the principle on which this charge is founded. The tax is unjust, particularly in relation to the class of people on whom it is imposed. The Post Office should not exist at all unless it gives some benefit to these poor people. You provide them with two deliveries of letters per week. If, in the meantime, one of the members of a family living in a mountain cottage gets ill in England and a telegram has to be sent home, these poor people in the midst of their trouble are asked to pay 2/- or 2/6 for delivery of that telegram, which was paid for on the other side, while the business man or farmer living within a mile of the post office gets his telegram free. I ask the Minister to take this matter in hand and rectify it. I think that every member of this House will support him in having this grievance removed.

In connection with Deputy Hannigan's complaint, there are certain telephone exchanges of long standing in which the original machines are still operating. I made reference to this matter last year and I was told by Deputy Brodrick last night that one of the worst cases to which I drew attention still remains as it was then. To secure efficiency in the service and to extend the telephone mentality, the machines in the exchanges should be highly efficient if only because the rural population know very little about the use of telephones. These new instruments are difficult enough to people who have not used them before, but the position is made much worse when antiquated instruments are in use and people have to twist and twist. The Minister should ask his engineer-in-chief for a list of the places where these old instruments are installed and have them immediately replaced.

The third matter to which I wish to refer is an extended postal service. I was suggesting to the Minister when the House adjourned last night that in areas where the people have occasion for daily communication in order to conduct their business, their necessities should be met. I suggest that the Minister should have a survey made of the entire country and pick out the intensive tillage areas — the areas where wheat, beet, potatoes, oats and flax are grown. The Minister who lives in the city may not appreciate that, owing to the new licensing and quota system, contracts are frequently lost owing to the absence of a daily postal service. That is the case, particularly, when Sunday is preceded or succeeded by a holiday. I myself know cases where farmers have lost contracts in those circumstances. If the Minister is going to adopt a plan of extension, he should have a survey of the country made, and he should cater for the tillage areas. I do not like to complain unnecessarily, unless some practical suggestion can be made to improve matters. As the Minister has adopted a scheme of extensions he should not begin in some areas, but should give all areas the same facilities. I notice an item of £23,567 in the Estimate which has been withheld by Great Britain, while £26,400 is due to Great Britain. I should like to hear if Great Britain is retaining the money because of the economic war. I do not understand how that dispute could extend to the Post Office. I thought it was only the farmers were affected. Apparently the Post Office also comes under the ban. If Britain is retaining £23,567, the Minister can retain the money due to Britain until that country discharges its obligation to his Department. The Minister has there a hammer for use in connection with that money if he wishes to use it. Perhaps the Minister would explain why the money has not been paid to his Department.

Mr. Roddy

Last year I raised a question about the delay in the delivery of letters between Sligo and Donegal, and I am glad to say that since then there has been a very marked improvement in the service. There is, however, still an abnormal delay in the delivery of parcels between Sligo and Donegal. Parcels sent from Sligo to seaboard parts of Donegal take anything from two to three days to deliver. I am certain that if it was possible to speed up the delivery of letters it should be possible to speed up the delivery of parcels. Two days is too long for the delivery of parcels between Sligo and the extreme ends of Donegal. I had a peculiar experience in connection with the delivery of letters recently. I sent a letter to a friend in a townland 21 miles from the town of Sligo and it was not delivered until two days afterwards. On making enquiry at the post office I found that if the letter had been posted before 3 o'clock it would have been delivered on the following morning, but when posted after 3 o'clock would not be delivered until two days later, the explanation being that a letter posted after 3 o'clock is sent to Dublin by the next train, and is then returned to Ballina, and sorted for delivery in a townland 21 miles from Sligo. There appears to be something wrong with the system there. I may add that that was not the first experience of that kind that I had. Now that we are endeavouring to make special efforts to bring tourists to this country, I think the Minister could co-operate in that good work, by providing proper telephone facilities at the small seaside resorts. I am thinking particularly of the small resorts in County Sligo like Strandhill, Mullaghmore, and places in County Mayo. If only in the interests of public safety proper telephone facilities should be provided at such places. I am making no case for the larger seaside resorts, which are well catered for and have adequate telephone services. But there are small resorts along the Sligo and Mayo coasts that have no telephone facilities. In one of them there is not even a Gárda station. In this year of Our Lord, 1938, we should, at least, have advanced to the stage when the most up-to-date means would be available for the saving of human life. In one of these seaside resorts there was a bad accident some years ago, and a life was lost.

Several Deputies referred to the delay that takes place in the delivery of letters. As the delivery of letters is really a national service, the Minister should devise some scheme to obviate the delay, or, at least, to bring it within reasonable limits. It is difficult to understand the official reason why certain districts are scheduled for daily deliveries, while other districts are excluded. I have in mind two districts in County Sligo, in one of which there is a daily delivery, and in an adjoining one there is a delivery only every second day. There is as strong a case for daily delivery in the one area as in the other. I realise that this is a sparsely populated country and that it costs money to have letters delivered daily. Nevertheless, I believe that a special case can be made for daily delivery. The service being a national one some scheme should be devised so that districts at present excluded from the daily delivery of letters will, in the course of a short time, be given the same facilities that other districts now enjoy.

Mr. W. O'Brien

I should like to support Deputy Roddy's plea for the daily delivery of letters. I have complaints from parts of my constituency in the vicinity of Carrick-on-Suir, a town with a population of 5,000 people, in which there is not a daily delivery. In that connection I think it was Deputy Roddy's Party that suspended the daily delivery of letters. I am glad to see that he is now interested in having it restored. I should like if the Minister could give some explanation regarding the appointment recently of a postman in Nenagh. A postman named Hassett was employed there in a temporary capacity, but when a permanent appointment came to be made, a single man who had other employment was given the post, as against Hassett, who was a married man and had no other employment. I think an appointment of that kind calls for some explanation, as it appears to be at variance with Government policy that a single man in employment should be engaged as against a married man who had no other work.

Mr. Gorry

I wish to support the plea made for a daily postal service in all parts of the country. We have now reached the stage when that service should be restored. I wish to put forward for favourable consideration by the Department a proposal for an extension of the early postal service in Tullamore, a growing town in the midlands, where the business people are anxious to have two or three extra hours to deal with their correspondence. I understand that that could be arranged by taking the mails for the early morning delivery off an early train at Moate. I also wish to call attention to the differentiation that exists in connection with the delivery of letters in Mountmellick, one end being served before the other. I think that even if it necessitated the employment of an additional part-time postman, both ends of the town should receive the same consideration. There is another matter which I think is worthy of the general approval of the House. I am in agreement with the people who put forward the suggestion that there ought to be reconsideration of the salaries paid to sub-postmasters in various areas in the country. I do think that on fair and impartial examination something could be done to raise the standard of salary. I have in mind a couple of instances of rural areas where the postmaster or postmistress is on his or her feet from a very early hour in the morning until nine o'clock at night, while the rural postmen, who have their work terminated at two or three o'clock, are getting a better salary. I think that matter is worthy of consideration. Taking the general feeling expressed from all sides of the House, I do not think any obstacle would be put in the way of the Minister if the service generally were to cost more in order to restore daily deliveries, and deal with such questions as this. I think the Minister would have the unanimous support of the House in dealing with these matters.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister to conclude.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Traynor)

A Chinn Comhairle, I think we will all agree that the debate on this Estimate has been carried out in the form that I am sure you, Sir, would regard as the ideal form of debate in the House. I feel proud that the debate was conducted without any of that carping type of criticism that is very often evident in discussions. The complaints made were, on the whole, fair complaints, although I imagine that some of them were rather exaggerated. That was probably due to pressure by constituents, or might possibly have been caused by the fact that Deputies are working for long hours of the day and are generally harassed beings; naturally when they take up a telephone and do not get immediate service, they, I suppose, more than anyone else, are inclined to complain, and to complain bitterly. In that respect, I feel that complaints coming from commercial people in the city would be a clearer indication that the telephone service was all that some of the people who were complaining made it out to be. I think that, considering the very large volume of work undertaken by the telephone department of the Post Office, the complaints on the whole are small. That is my experience. Like every other Deputy in the House, from time to time I get complaints from business people in the city, but they are usually complaints arising perhaps through faults in the instruments rather than through bad service from the exchanges proper.

The fact that there was an interval between the adjournment of the debate and its resumption to-day has given me a chance to go into the matters under consideration in fair detail. Several Deputies advocated the distribution of the Post Office surplus. Now, I should like to point out that, from the transfer of services in 1922 up to the financial year 1930-31, the Department of Posts and Telegraphs was conducted at a loss. At 31st March, 1931, the total loss to date amounted to £3,809,622. In 1931-32 the Commercial Accounts showed a profit for the first time, which has been maintained in varying degrees. The aggregate profit from 1931-32 to the end of 1936-37 amounted to £846,475, so that a nett loss of £2,963,147 has been sustained since control of the service was undertaken by the Irish Administration.

Mr. Cosgrave

Would the Minister give the loss on the first year?

Mr. Traynor

I have not got it.

Mr. Cosgrave

Surely it would be possible to get it?

Mr. Traynor

Yes, I can get it.

Mr. Cosgrave

I take it the Minister does not mean to make out that since his Party became the Government there has been a certain profit?

Mr. Traynor

I am not saying that.

Mr. Cosgrave

But it can be inferred from the figures which the Minister has given.

Mr. Traynor

I am showing a gradual improvement. If the Deputy feels that in his interests——

Mr. Cosgrave

I have no interests in the matter. I simply want the truth.

Mr. Traynor

The Deputy is not suggesting that I am withholding the truth?

Mr. Cosgrave

From the way in which the Minister is putting it, people would be led to believe that the improvements are entirely traceable to his work.

Mr. Traynor

No. The improvement is due to the way in which the Post Office has been managed from 1922. I think that is clear enough for the Deputy.

Mr. Cosgrave

It is not. Read the first year's loss.

Mr. Traynor

The total loss in the year was £1,108,260.

Mr. Cosgrave

That makes a very different story.

Mr. Traynor

I want to say that I am not here to make a political speech. I am merely stating the facts. I am not one of the people who come in and make political speeches. I am not trying to get political advantage out of the fact that I am making this statement.

Mr. Cosgrave

That statement, taken along with the one made by Deputy O'Brien, would look as if an attempt were being made to get political capital out of it. The Deputy, of course, did not bother his head as to whether or not there was a loss in years gone by.

Mr. Traynor

Anyway, the Deputy is satisfied that I am stating what are merely the facts. I am not referring back to any particular period and putting it up against another. I am saying that under the dual administration —the previous Government and the present one — the loss is still there.

Mr. Cosgrave

Then, it would not be anything political to say there was a greater achievement in the last ten years than in the first five?

Mr. Traynor

In the year 1937-8 the profit is estimated at £100,000. That is a gradual lessening of the surplus, and I am not going to believe that the Deputy will try to use that against me any more than I desire to use the other against him. During the year 1936-7 the concessions to the public included reduced rates for inland parcels, inland telegrams, porterage charges, and telephone charges; more frequent deliveries in rural districts and improvements in the conditions of employment of certain classes. In view of the reduction in profits from £201,792 in 1936-7 to approximately £100,000 in 1937-8, it is thought that further concessions cannot safely be made. Deputies Minch, Brasier, Kennedy, Redmond, Davin, Linehan, Allen, Meaney, Roddy, O'Brien, and Gorry raised the question of the six-day delivery. At no period in the post office history was there a daily delivery in all rural areas. I should like that to be made clear. I am not suggesting that at no period should we have it; I merely want to point out that at no period was there a daily delivery in all rural areas.

Prior to the retrenchment in 1923, 715 posts had a frequency of less than six days. The number of such posts is now 680, and a good many of these posts are operated at a loss. In no case can increased frequency be granted without further appreciable loss to revenue, which could not be justified on any grounds. Whilst the actual loss cannot be stated without exhaustive enquiry, it would amount to many thousands of pounds. The general mail arrangements are designed to provide that correspondence posted in time for night mail despatches are delivered in any town area within 24 hours, and also any rural area enjoying a weekday delivery. Before the concessions of last year, there were 3,500 rural posts with a six-day delivery, 1,273 rural posts with less than a six-day delivery and 197 with less than three days. Now, since the revision, 4,290 posts are afforded a six-day delivery, and about 680 with the smaller delivery.

Mr. Norton

I think I understood the Minister to say that the number of rural posts, before the revision, was in or about 1,200. Do I understand that the number is now over 1,400?

Mr. Traynor

No, it is less.

Mr. Norton

Yes, because it seemed to me that there was a discrepancy. How can it be about 680 now and be regarded as an increase, if it was about 1,500 last year?

Mr. Traynor

I am not certain of the figure I quoted last year.

Mr. Norton

I think it was about 1,200.

Mr. Traynor

However, certain Deputies, including Deputies Minch, Kennedy, Mrs. Redmond, Cole, Allen, Hannigan, Browne, and Walsh, raised the question of the telephone. As regards telephones, it was suggested by various Deputies that the service generally afforded is not satisfactory. I referred in my introductory statement to the unsatisfactory nature of the cross-channel night service and also to the congestion which, from unavoidable causes, arose in Dublin in October last; but apart from these instances I must definitely disagree with the suggestion that there has been anything material to complain about, and indeed the suggestion is not in accordance with ordinary day to day experience. While no doubt individual failures of service from time to time occur—and this is inevitable in a large and complex organisation such as the telephone service — I must maintain that the standard of service at present generally afforded is of a good order. On the trunk routes from Dublin to all parts of the country, records regularly taken show that delay, on the average, is negligible and that the quality of transmission is quite good. On calls between places not directly connected, the speed of obtaining connection depends, of course, on the number of intermediate switchings involved, but the average over-all delay even in such cases is really very low. Direct circuits are provided in each area when the traffic warrants. Complaints of delay are infrequent and they usually emanate from small users of the service. Large users rarely complain.

On the cross-Channel service, material delay does not arise until after 7 o'clock in the evening, when the cheap night rates become operative. It is hoped that some improvement in this respect will result in a few months when the first of the new cross-Channel cables is in full operation. When we have the two new cables working in about a year's time the service, day and night, will be definitely first-class.

Deputy Norton referred to conditions in Crown Alley. I have been to Crown Alley, and I have a fair idea of the circumstances. I do not think it can be suggested that the exchange is up to date or that the plant is modern or that conditions are what we should like to have them in the principal exchange of the country. I must point out, however, that the equipment, although not modern, serves its purpose adequately. We have the question of a new exchange under consideration as a matter of urgency, and until a new exchange can be provided no material improvement in conditions is feasible. In the meantime, however I want to emphasise that the public service is not suffering. Crown Alley is the pivotal exchange of the trunk service and, as I have already pointed out, the trunk service afforded is of a satisfactory order.

Reference was made by various Deputies to the old type of telephone instrument which is still in use in provincial areas. Because, however, the instruments are of an old type, they are not necessarily inefficient. Wherever an instrument is found to be unsatisfactory, it is replaced by an instrument of a new type without charge to the subscriber. New-type instruments are also supplied in remote places where transmission may not be always up to standard. The cost of the general substitution of new-type instruments for old would be very considerable, and could not be justified where the change was not necessary in the interests of efficient service.

On the question of continuous service, I would point out that service outside day hours is extremely costly, and that the revenue from night and Sunday traffic at small exchanges would not nearly cover the cost of general extension of hours. Even at exchanges in the provinces, where continuous service is afforded, the traffic arising after 10 p.m. is, generally speaking, negligible. The Department is considering whether any case can be made for the introduction of continuous attendance at the more important provincial exchanges at which the hours are not restricted; but, for the bulk of exchanges, I think we must look for a solution of the problem to the rural semi-automatic system which, as I have mentioned, is about to be tried experimentally in the Malahide, Donabate, Lusk area.

Telephone rentals and charges were substantially reduced in July, 1936, and there is no case for a further reduction. One or two Deputies referred to the excessive charge for "installation" of service. There is no such charge operative; the annual rental covers installation. Deputy Minch mentioned that he had been informed that new subscribers were receiving better rental terms than subscribers who had had service for some time. I can assure the Deputy that his information is incorrect.

I should like to assure the Deputies that I fully recognise the importance of the telephone service to the people of the country, and I am accordingly only too anxious to see it extended and developed to the utmost possible extent and functioning efficiently and with satisfaction to subscribers and other users. Extension, however, must be guided by reasonable considerations of economy, and however much we would like to do so, it is obviously not practicable to provide service at the public expense at small and unimportant places where the use of it would be negligible. That there has been no niggardliness, however, on the part of my Department in regard to the extension of the service is evidenced by the fact that, during the three financial years ended yesterday, the amount expended on development was approximately £470,000, while the programme for the current financial year will involve an outlay of the order of £306,000.

Mention was made by Deputy Browne of certain places in the County Mayo, including Belmullet. The Department is giving special consideration to the Belmullet case. On account of the considerable distance of Belmullet from Ballina and the extent of pole route and circuit which would be involved, provision of service on the normal method of calculating cost and revenue would not be justified. I am, however, having the position specially examined with a view to, if possible, the application of some amended basis which would enable service to be provided.

As regards the telegraph service, having regard to the existing loss, it is quite out of the question to make a concession in the number of words covered by the minimum charge of 1s. As I have said, the cost involved would be about £10,600 per annum and, even if the traffic increased sufficiently to cover this, which is altogether unlikely, the Department would be involved in substantial extra cost for staff to deal with the additional traffic.

As regards delay in the delivery of telegrams, in the particular case of Clonakilty, concerning which Deputy O'Donovan complained, I am, as I to-day informed the Deputy at question time, arranging for the restoration of the regular boy messenger position. I am prepared to consider the adoption of a similar course in the case of any of the more important places where there is a reasonable quantity of traffic and where the absence of a regular messenger is involving delay. Deputies will, however, understand that it is quite out of the question to employ a regular messenger at the great bulk of the smaller offices. The number of messages for delivery is very small in these cases, and the employment of a boy who would, for the greater part of his time, be wholly unoccupied, could not be justified. I do not think, however, judging by the practical absence of complaint, that the present system of delivery generally gives rise to any substantial inconvenience.

Deputy Dockrell raised a question about the Savings Bank. We have had no complaints ourselves in respect of the Savings Bank. In fact, there is a steady and continuous increase in the number of transactions. The increase since 1935 has been 84,000 per annum, and deposits have increased from £1,693,841 in 1933 to £2,482,862 in 1937. There does not seem to be very much justification for the particular complaint.

With regard to the St. Andrew Street site, the plans for the new building are being prepared, and I shall see that there is no avoidable delay in my Department in having the work proceeded with.

A question was raised by Deputy Norton in respect of wages claims for post office classes. A general revision of the scales and wages of post office classes was carried out with effect from December, 1935, and the improvements, together with the cost of the reduction in hours of attendance, involved additional expenditure to the extent of over £26,000 per annum. The further representations on the later claim submitted on behalf of the members of the Post Office Workers' Union are under consideration, and I shall do what is possible to expedite a decision. With reference to the special fund at the disposal of the Minister, I have been examining that matter myself since the Deputy raised the question last year. I was actually working on it this week, and I hope in the near future to be able to announce some decision. What the decision may be I cannot say.

With regard to the questions raised by Deputy Keyes and Deputy Brennan about the pay of sub-postmasters, I should like to say that sub-postmasters are merely part-time officials of the Department and they have, as a general rule, some other source of income. They are paid in proportion to the volume of post office work transacted and on that account the payments received by them from the Department vary with the size of the office. In the case of these small offices, which exist principally for the sale of stamps and postal orders and the payment of old age pensions, the payments received are of necessity small, but the emoluments of the larger offices are fairly considerable and in some cases they amount to as much as £450 a year, inclusive. The question of revising the existing basis of payment is under consideration.

With respect to the points raised by Deputy Mrs. Redmond and Deputy Norton about the accommodation in the Waterford Post Office, I am informed that the accommodation is not as satisfactory as we would like, and steps are being taken to have some improvements made.

Mr. Norton

When will the steps be taken?

Mr. Traynor

I hope in the very near future. Deputy Heron referred to the accountant's branch staff revision. This revision involves not only an increase in staff, but consideration of the proper grading of many of the duties, and it presents considerable difficulties which call for close examination. A definite decision on the grading question has not yet been arrived at, but a provisional increase in the staff has been authorised, sufficient to meet the requirements.

Deputies Kennedy, Allen and Meaney raised a question in regard to the facilities in the Dáil Post Office. The Dáil Post Office facilities are controlled by the Dáil Procedure and Privileges Committee, from whom no application for an improvement has been received. Deputy Davin and Deputy Gorry raised a question about the Tullamore day mail delivery. Tullamore is provided with a night mail delivery commencing at 7 a.m. and a day mail delivery commencing at 11.35 a.m. I am prepared to accelerate the day mail delivery if it can be done at a reasonable cost. The absence of suitable transport presents a difficulty. I am awaiting an early revision of the road services in the district, which may meet the situation. The improvement suggested would cost about £150 per annum and this is regarded as being very high.

A question was raised by Deputy McMenamin in respect to certain moneys withheld by the British Government. That is a question that has been asked and answered here, I think, every year since the moneys were withheld. They are withheld for the provision of pensions to pre-Treaty pensioners paid by the British Administration and for telephone annuity payments under Telegraph Acts prior to the transfer of the services in 1922. There is a reduction in the amount of the sub-head and it is due to the fact that the pre-Treaty pensioners are gradually dying out. I think I have covered practically all the questions which have been asked.

Mr. W. O'Brien

Will the Minister reply to the query about the postman in Nenagh?

Mr. Traynor

The man who was appointed was employed intermittently on post office duties, on such post office duties as he was appointed to recently, and take responsibility for the appointment. The Department recommend him as being a highly satisfactory auxiliary postman.

Mr. W. O'Brien

What does the Minister say to the Government instruction about employing idle men as against men employed and married men as against single men? Why will these stipulations be ignored?

Mr. Traynor

These part-time postmen positions have been criticised. I think they have been more criticised by the Labour Party than by anyone else. The object in endeavouring to give this post to a man who was already working was to bring his wages up to the standard that the Labour Party themselves believe is a living wage. I do not think there is anything wrong in that. These part-time postmen are given these positions on the understanding that they do other work to supplement the wages which they receive from the Post Office.

Mr. O'Brien

Was the man who was appointed registering at the labour exchange?

Mr. Traynor

At the moment I cannot just say that. I think he would have been.

Mr. O'Brien

I understand he was not.

Mr. Traynor

I cannot answer that at the moment.

Mr. Gorey

Might I ask the Minister when the financial year ends in the Post Office?

Mr. Traynor

The 31st March — the ordinary financial year.

Mr. Gorey

The Minister spoke of losses and profits on the Post Office. We are not going to try to make political capital out of the figures, and it is ridiculous to withhold them, but in order to give the country a fair picture of the position, the Minister should not include the year 1922-23 in the figures. Is the Minister in a position to give us the figures for the period 1924-37 and tell us what is the definite position of the Post Office?

Mr. Traynor

I am not sure if the Deputy was here when I was replying to the point raised by Deputy Cosgrave, but if he was here——

Mr. Gorey

The Minister mentioned 1922. If we want to arrive at a reasonable figure, there is no use in including an abnormal period like 1922-1923 in giving us a picture of the position of the Post Office.

Mr. Traynor

I think my statement covered all that.

Mr. Gorey

I only want to get the figures segregated — leaving out 1922-23, and beginning in 1924.

Mr. Traynor

I think I made it clear that, from 1924, there was a general reduction in the deficit all the time until a point was reached when it disappeared, and a surplus gradually was shown. I made it clear that I was not making any political capital out of it. The Post Office is a business concern. I do not take any kudos for the the position which it occupies to-day.

Mr. Gorey

What are the total losses to date, including 1922?

Mr. Traynor

£2,900,000 odd.

Mr. Gorey

Then you would have made £1,000,000 profit in the normal years?

Mr. Traynor

I said that the aggregate profit from 1931-1932 to the end of 1936-37 amounted to £846,475.

Mr. Gorey

Including 1922?

Mr. Traynor

So that a nett loss of £2,963,147 had been sustained since 1922 under the two Governments.

Mr. Gorey

I do not want to include 1922-23. I make out that a profit has been made since 1924 to date.

Mr. Traynor

If that is so, it is not shown. That is all I can say.

Mr. Gorey

If you eliminate the amount lost in the 1922-23 period——

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to put questions to the Minister, but not to reply to the Minister's concluding statement.

Mr. Gorey

I am not doing that at all. The Minister has not answered the point I made last night with regard to the delivery of telegrams outside certain limits. I asked if he could give the total amount collected from those charges.

Mr. Traynor

I could not give that figure. I could not get down to the point of saying just how much money was gathered in on porterage. We have not segregated the amount into small items.

Mr. McMenamin

Is it a small sum?

Mr. Traynor

It would not be very large.

Mr. McMenamin

About how much?

Mr. Traynor

Several thousand pounds.

Mr. McMenamin

That is a very ambiguous statement.

Mr. Traynor

Of course it is, and I am trying to tell the Deputy that we have not got the figure. Unless we are to be asked to produce the figures for every small service, we could not give such a figure.

Mr. Gorey

I am not asking the question in any hostile spirit at all.

Mr. Traynor

I am not suggesting that the Deputy is. I am trying to point out the difficulty of answering his question.

Mr. Gorey

For the last five or six years, the Post Office has been making a profit. Has the time not arrived when it would be well, in common decency and in justice to the citizens who have to pay these porterage charges, to write off these charges, and give all the citizens the same facilities in respect of the delivery of telegrams?

Mr. Traynor

Does the Deputy mean in rural areas?

Mr. Gorey

Certainly.

Mr. Traynor

All I can say to that is that, generally, what would apply in a city in regard to social services such as the supply of water, gas and electric light, must also apply to the rural areas in respect of telegrams.

Mr. McMenamin

What is the analogy?

Mr. Traynor

Telegrams are gradually fading out as a result of the popularity of the telephone and so far as we can see, nothing we can do is going to make the telegraph service any more popular than it is at present. It is diminishing all the time, and it is all in favour of the telephone.

Mr. McMenamin

What is the analogy?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister is in possession.

Mr. Gorey

In other words, the rural community will get no service — either telegram or telephone?

Mr. Traynor

As long as there is a demand for telegrams, that demand will always be met. The Deputy does not suggest that we are going to withdraw telegraph services from the people?

Mr. Gorey

I am suggesting that you should withdraw the delivery charges.

Mr. Traynor

The services in respect of telegrams to-day are as good as, if not better than, they have ever been and I do not know why the Deputy is concentrating on the particular point.

Mr. Gorey

You can afford to do better now in as much as you are making a profit.

Mr. Traynor

We are not making a profit on telegrams.

Mr. O'Brien

Might I ask the Minister to make further inquiries into the case of the postman in Nenagh which I raised? I understand the person appointed was not living in Nenagh but in Borrisokane. Is the Minister aware of that?

Mr. Traynor

I am prepared to stand over the appointment, as I have said. I am responsible for the appointment and I have taken everything into consideration. I assured myself that the person appointed would live within the limits required by the Post Office and I understand that this condition is being complied with. I am perfectly satisfied, and the Department from which I inquired as to how the individual was carrying out his duties, is perfectly satisfied that a good man has been appointed, a man who is giving first class service and who has been intermittently employed from 1924 up to the present.

Mr. O'Brien

Can the Minister tell us why Government policy has been departed from in employing an unmarried man as against a married man, and a man who is not signing at the Labour Exchange?

Mr. Traynor

Government policy has not been departed from in the slightest way.

Mr. Dockrell

Can the Minister say anything about the point I raised in regard to the Dun Laoghaire Mail Passenger Service? As there were four people to these negotiations they will probably take a long time. Could the Minister say if they have been started yet?

Mr. Norton

What is the cause of the delay in issuing uniforms of the protective clothing kind to which I referred yesterday?

Mr. Heron

When does the Minister anticipate there will be a decision on the claims that have been submitted on behalf of the staff?

Mr. Cole

Would the Minister be in a position to give any reply in connection with late telephone calls?

Mr. Traynor

I am sorry I did not catch what Deputy Cole has said. The only way I can remember what I am being asked is by standing up immediately after the various Deputies have put the questions. In reply to Deputy Norton I want to say as regards the question raised yesterday in respect to the supply of uniforms, that we are looking into that complaint. We were not able to have a reply to it to-day. In reply to the question of the wages claim I am sorry I cannot add anything to what I have already said. The matter is being considered and I will do everything I can to expedite a decision.

Mr. Dockrell

I asked the Minister about the Dun Laoghaire mail passenger service.

Mr. Traynor

I cannot say anything about the Dun Laoghaire question. We have very little say in that matter. I explained at the time the Deputy interviewed me what the position was. Our commitments in the business are so small that I do not think we can go into the matter at all. I am afraid the Deputy will have to rely on some other source than the Post Office to help him to secure the improvements he is seeking to have made at the Dun Laoghaire pier.

Mr. Heron

Regarding the inspection of the duties which took place in the accountant's branch, would the Minister say if anything has been done about that or has any action been taken?

Mr. Traynor

I am afraid I will have to refer the Deputy to the Official Debates. I answered his question, but the Deputy was not here.

Question put and agreed to.