Committee On Finance. - Vote 64—Wireless Broadcasting. – Dáil Éireann (9th Dáil) – Thursday, 31 Mar 1938

Committee On Finance. - Vote 64—Wireless Broadcasting.

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Traynor)

I move:

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £49,759 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1939, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí eile a bhaineann le Fóirleatha Nea-shrangach (Uimh. 45 de 1926).

That a sum not exceeding £49,759 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1939, for Salaries and other Expenses in connection with Wireless Broadcasting (No. 45 of 1926).

The amount of the Estimate for the broadcasting service for the year 1938-39 is £74,559, compared with £61,374 for 1937-38—an increase of £13,185. The increase falls almost wholly under subheads A (£2,095), B (£3,670) and F (£7,655). The extra provision is necessary to cover additional staff and contemplated increased expenditure on programmes and on plant.

The revenue from the broadcasting service for the current financial year (1937-38) will amount to approximately £102,000. The revenue for the coming financial year is estimated at £107,500 —£72,500 from wireless receiving licences and £35,000 from advertisements and miscellaneous receipts — an increase of £5,500.

The direct expenditure on broadcasting out of all Votes in the current financial year will amount to approximately £81,541. The revenue for the current year thus shows a surplus over expenditure of approximately £20,460. Commercial Accounts for broadcasting are, however, not prepared as in the case of the Post Office, so that in considering the financial position of the service it is necessary to allow, in addition to the Vote expenditure, for charges on capital expended on the erection of stations and studios — interest, depreciation, etc. If full allowance were made for these items, broadcasting would at present show a balance on the wrong side.

In my statement on the Broadcasting Estimate for the current year I stated that the revenue from licence fees was estimated at £60,000. The actual receipts will, however, be £70,000 approximately. This substantial increase is due partly to normal increase in holders of wireless sets, but mainly to a special campaign against defaulters which was undertaken in January of this year. As a result of this "drive," the number of licences increased during the months of January and February alone by no less than 27,342, of which 25,813 were new licences. The total number of wireless licences in existence on the 28/2/38 was 139,534 as compared with 103,320 on the 28/2/37, an increase of 36,214. The results of the campaign are extremely satisfactory from the point of view both of additional revenue and of bringing defaulters to boot and it is believed that the amount of evasion now existing is not of material proportions. The special publicity given in advance to the campaign proved immediately effective and I am glad to say that the number of cases in which it was necessary to resort to prosecution to enforce compliance with the regulations was comparatively small.

Two new positions were added to the broadcasting establishment during the year, viz.: Balance and control officer and gramophone librarian. The functions of the balance and control officer are, generally, the control by means of special apparatus of musical, dramatic, etc., programmes so as to secure fidelity of reproduction and the best results.

The question of the erection of a short-wave station for the purpose of communication with distant countries was under consideration during the year and it was decided, as a preliminary step, to install short-wave plant of an experimental character in the present high power station at Athlone. The experimental station will probably not function until about the end of this year or early next year, as the necessary apparatus will take a considerable time to supply and, apart from this, the outcome of the Cairo Telecommunications Conference will have to be awaited in connection with the allocation of a wavelength.

Provision is also made for new and up-to-date studio and control apparatus for use by the balance and control officer. This is a rescheduling, as the apparatus was included in the Estimate for the current year, but there has been delay in supplying it.

The number of players in the orchestra was increased during the year from 24 to 28. Improvement in the quality of programmes is the constant aim of the directorate and it is hoped that with the additional money which will be available for programme purposes next year the standard will be still further improved.

Nine symphony concerts were arranged for during the year, including four public performances in the Gaiety Theatre, Dublin. The attendances at the first two of the public concerts were disappointing; that at the third was satisfactory, while the result of the last of the concerts to be held on the 24th proximo is awaited. To what extent these concerts can continue to be given in public in future seasons will be a matter for consideration at a later stage in the light of the public interest taken in them.

The provision of a suitable short-wave receiver for the reception of foreign programmes is under consideration. Last year relays of concerts by Toscannini were arranged in collaboration with the British Broadcasting Corporation. Special gramophone recitals are now given not less frequently than once a week.

Irish is being used increasingly in the programme. The schools programmes have been rearranged after consultation with the teachers. That these programmes are appreciated by both teachers and pupils is evident from the fact that 400 schools now regularly take them as compared with 200 previously.

Broadcasting is a service which has to cater for an extraordinary variety of tastes and interests and it is obvious that it is not always possible to satisfy everybody. The director aims, however, at meeting the desires of listeners as far as he is reasonably able to and as far as he can ascertain them. It will be appreciated, however, that we have not here the vast and varied resources either of money or talent available to large broadcasting administrations, but I think that, taking all the circumstances into consideration, our broadcasting service is of a high standard and that it affords good, varied and instructive entertainment to listeners.

Mr. Minch

If there is one criticism that can be made on this Vote, it is in regard to the very poor allowance that is made for the broadcasting service in this country. I, and I am sure many other Deputies also, would prefer to see a much more substantial sum provided for the encouragement and development of broadcasting in Eire. As far as one can see, the present administration and directorate have been doing very well indeed on the amount of money made available. I am sure many country Deputies will agree that one of the things that is most conducive to self-contentment amongst our people, during the long, wet nights in country districts, is the form of entertainment which can be provided by the broadcasting station. Nothing can be more useful or instructive than a first-class musical programme with a suitable number of variety items. I think, in view of that alone, the amount of money that is allotted for this service is altogether too small. We are all out for economy, I agree, but it should be economy in the right place. Here is certainly one direction in which I, and many others, believe more money could be expended with great national advantage.

I am surprised that the Minister had nothing to say on the subject of television. Is any investigation or research being carried out in conjunction with other countries with a view to the development of television in this country? We should move with the times, and the possibility of having an experimental television station in or around Dublin or Cork should not be forgotten. If we are not going to lag behind the times, we certainly should make some effort to keep abreast of developments in that respect. There is no doubt that in other countries television has made, since the Minister spoke on his Estimate last year, amazing strides. I had the privilege myself recently of seeing television in operation in another country, and I certainly came back home with the impression that a wireless apparatus was practically out of date unless television was associated with it in some form or other. I hope when the Minister comes to conclude on this Vote that he will give us some indication that that matter is not being overlooked.

Finally, if there is to be any criticism levelled against the broadcasting administration, as far as the news service is concerned, that is a matter, we understand, that cannot be altogether remedied. If my information is correct, I understand that Central News and Reuter control the distribution of a good deal of the world's news. Some of the news supplied is looked upon as propaganda, and does not give a fair and impartial representation of world events. Some of these events should receive better treatment. I do not want to introduce into this House any discrimination as between world events, or to say that one ideology is greater than another, or that one political Party in certain countries receives more consideration than another, but if I might mention one country, Spain, we have had over and over again far more news propagated from Barcelona than from Burgos. It is only quite recently that a declaration by the Nationalist Government there was given but a few lines, while the reply by the Barcelona Premier was given a column at least. That, I believe, is not in accordance with the feelings of the overwhelming majority of the people of this country, or does not represent intellectual opinion in this country as far as events in Spain are concerned.

Mr. McMenamin

I am rather tickled by the bland statement that we are to have a new short wave station for communicating with foreign countries. I think the Minister should have taken the House more into his confidence than simply to slur over an item of this kind. Are we going to enter into competition in the campaign of falsehood that is carried on over the air every night all over the world and which almost certainly conceals the true facts of the situation that obtains in a State at any given time? I want to know specifically is that the purpose of this station? Probably a political "howler" will be selected and placed in charge of the station and his duty will be almost certainly to distort the true conditions in this country. If anybody wishes to ascertain what is the true situation in this country, we are a hospitable people and we are not afraid to receive anybody who comes on a mission of that kind. It is much better that they should ascertain the facts of the situation in that way than that we should erect a short-wave station to tell them something that is absolutely and utterly untrue. Such a campaign is carried on almost every night from these short wave stations in other countries. We have the nonentities of yesterday who will become the obscurities of to-morrow, boosted as heroes throughout the world on the air every night. Let us give the truth here. Let us have a station that will be subject to, and under the control of this House, and then we can be absolutely certain that the matter broadcast will not be distorted. We will take good care that some truth, if not all the truth, will be given out. I want to know clearly the purpose for which the short wave station is to be employed.

I understood the Minister to say that a profit of £20,000 was made on the broadcasting service last year. If so, I am rather tickled at some of the salaries paid. Under sub-head (3), the musical conductor is given a salary of £283. I do not know anything about music; I want to confess that immediately. I would not know "Patrick's Day" from the "Protestant Boys," but I say that if a person is qualified to be a musical conductor, in an institution which makes a profit of £20,000 a year, he is entitled to a better salary than £283.

Then there is the assistant engineer. I take it that he is fully qualified, although he is not a senior man; that he is competent except perhaps for experience. In this place which makes a profit of £20,000 this man gets the munificent sum of £186 per year. Is he a married man and has he a family? I am certainly not a socialist, but I always said that it was unjust employers who made Socialism and Communism. Then there is the gramophone librarian. Is that person a man or a woman, married or unmarried? In this place which makes £20,000 in profit the munificent sum of £53 is paid to that person. I always thought that people who helped to make profits should get a decent livelihood before the profits are calculated. We have a Christian Government, profoundly religious, as a matter of fact they are almost better Catholics than the Pope according to themselves, and yet a trained engineer employed in a place making £20,000 in profit is paid £186 a year.

Mr. W. O'Brien

Poverty and piety go hand in hand.

Mr. McMenamin

A woman organiser, I take it, with no skilled knowledge, gets £250, while the trained engineer, who is probably a married man with a family, gets only £186. I do not know whether the Minister examined these accounts or not, but I happen to be a member of the Public Accounts Committee and there one gets a nose for these things. I think that no one here can justify these salaries being paid when £20,000 in profit is made. I say that a place that cannot pay a decent wage to men should close down.

Mr. Hogan

What about Rhynana?

Mr. McMenamin

That is your business.

Mr. Hogan

It is not; it is their business.

Mr. McMenamin

No. You should make the pace hot enough for them.

Mr. Hogan

You are right. I will.

Mr. McMenamin

So long as you talk bluff to them they will think you are a bluffer. That is my tip.

Mr. Hogan

What do you mean me to do?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair desires the Deputies to come back to the Broadcasting Estimate.

Mr. McMenamin

You are representing Rhynana, and I am not going to give you any tips. I should like the Minister to look into the matters that I have raised. What is the use of people educating children, sending them to a university or to serve a long term of apprenticeship to become engineers when such salaries as these are paid? Even a boy who goes into an engineering firm must be a reasonably good scholar if he is to be an efficient engineer because he must be pretty well versed in advanced mathematics if he is going to be an engineer. Whatever may have happened in the past a profit of £20,000 is now being made, and I think that better wages should be paid than those I have referred to. I am rather sceptical about the status of the musical conductor who takes a wage of that kind. If a better man cannot be got it must be because of the pay or salary, and he should be got. There is no use in talking about large countries with a huge population and enormous income. Whatever the income is the profits were £20,000 and portion of that should be put back into improving the status of those employed and the quality of the service given.

Dr. Hannigan

I feel somewhat timid in rising to my feet so soon again on what might be christened "The Minister ought to do something." I feel, however, that I cannot allow this opportunity to pass without paying my small tribute to the Minister, his director of broadcasting and the officials for the progress made in the broadcasting service and programmes over the past years. I congratulate the Minister and the director of broadcasting on the further steps they have taken over this period to improve and make more attractive the broadcasting programmes. But there is an old saying, "Nothing is good while there is a better possible," and for that reason I urge the Minister and his staff to move more quickly with the times. The inclusion of an occasional novelty in the broadcasting programmes will be very much appreciated. For instance, on last Sunday evening a rather novel item was introduced which was, I understand, the first of a series — a general knowledge test competition — and, according to reports, that item was a striking success because listeners felt that they were not merely listeners, but actually participators in the competition. There is an item which has become the rage in American and British broadcasting programmes known as the spelling bee. I hope that nobody will ask me the origin of the phrase, but it is simply a spelling competition between teams, say, from different universities, or schools, or clubs. If that feature were introduced in this country perhaps it could be made particularly attractive by having a competition between members of, say, the different panels in the Seanad. In any case, it has proved a very great success, because anyone listening felt that he was participating just as in the old music hall days it was the song in which the whole audience could join in the chorus that brought the house down.

There is one very undesirable feature of Radio Eireann and that is the early closing. That, of course, applies to other institutions in the country. If there is no unsurmountable difficulty in the way, I think that the station should be continued until midnight, as is the case with neighbouring broadcasting stations. Even in this House I have heard complaints of the deplorable absorption, through the medium of the radio and of the films, of foreign ideas. But young men and young women in this country do not all go to bed at 11 p.m., and when the Irish Broadcasting Station closes down they probably tune into the London Radio Station, Radio Toulouse, Radio Paris, or some other foreign station. Unless there is some great difficulty in the way, it would be a very welcome change to continue the broadcasting until midnight.

There is just one further point I should like to make. I do not think there is sufficient co-operation between the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and the Department of Education. I think that much greater use could be made of wireless in this country as an educational medium. It is generally agreed that the school programmes are disappointing. A subject like Irish history could be taught through the medium of the wireless with great effect, because it could be introduced much more vividly and graphically than by using the ordinary school text books. I make no reference whatever to the value of broadcasting as a propagandist instrument. The Minister, his Department and his colleagues are well aware of its value in that particular respect.

Mr. Corish

For some years I have been complaining of the bad reception at Wexford. I was told last year, and the year before, that the Department was engaged in getting more power at the station. I am very sorry to have to say that, so far as Wexford is concerned, reception there to-day is not one bit better than it has been for years. I think that something ought to be done by the Minister's Department to find out if there is any reason why we should not be able to get decent reception at Wexford. We are wedged in between two apparently powerful stations, and especially between the hours of six and eight o'clock in the evening it is absolutely impossible to get Radio Eire any way clearly. It is very hard to get the first news at 6.45 p.m. It is very seldom indeed that we get the first news at 6.45 p.m. in its entirety. I would appeal to the Minister to endeavour to find out if there is any particular reason why Wexford should not be able to get good reception. Complaints have been made from all parts of the County Wexford. I understand that a World Conference was held recently at which delegates from this Government attended in an endeavour to secure a new wavelength. I would like to know from the Minister if anything has been done in that connection. The two stations at each side of Athlone are, as far as I can understand, not at all as powerful as the Irish station is now. Nevertheless, they are able completely to crowd out the Irish station in so far as reception at Wexford is concerned. With regard to what Deputy Hannigan said about the hour at which Athlone closes down at night, I am in entire agreement with him. I do think that we ought to have Athlone open until at least 12 o'clock, midnight, the same as the neighbouring country.

Now, as far as news is concerned I, like other speakers, am prepared to admit that there has been a big improvement in recent years. Yet, there does seem to be some carelessness in so far as news is concerned. Take last night, for instance. I know quite a number of people who were interested to find out whether Lydon had won his boxing contest at Belfast which, one may say, is only a few miles away. In my opinion word could have been got at 11 o'clock as to the result. That may appear to be a small matter, but I think it is one that the authorities might have foreseen. News items in relation to that and other events for the late broadcast should, I think, be secured on all occasions. So far as the working of the station generally is concerned, I am prepared to admit that there has been a big improvement, and I should like to congratulate the director. There has been a very great improvement since he was appointed director. In conclusion, I would ask the Minister to send an inspector or some technical officer to the Wexford area to find out what is really wrong there, and why it is that we cannot get good reception.

Mr. Esmonde

I notice that the profit estimated in connection with this Vote is in the neighbourhood of £15,000. I want to suggest to the Minister that the people who take out a licence annually for their wireless sets should not be regarded as persons contributing to the Exchequer by way of taxation, but rather as people who pay their money in order to obtain a fair amount of recreation and amusement. These people belong to all classes. Some live in very remote parts, and the vast majority are in very humble circumstances. Here we have an organisation which, owing to its satisfactory financial position, ought to be able to do a great deal for the licence holders.

All who have wireless sets are aware that each evening we have a sponsored programme from 9.30 to 10.30. If you care to listen in during that hour, you have that special programme when our broadcasting system is hired out to a corporation that uses it for the purpose of advertising. I am not suggesting that the sponsored programme is not a very good and an excellent programme. Under the heading of receipts, I find that it is estimated that £35,000 per annum will be derived from advertisements. I take it that the largest portion of that would be derived from the sponsored programme. I do not know whether there is any truth in it or not, but I have heard it said that £60 is paid for that particular hour each night. I suggest to the Minister that the benefit of the moneys received for advertising generally, and from the sponsored programme, should go to the benefit of those who take out licences, and that they should get the best value possible for their money. Some of them have to make very great sacrifices in order to be able to pay the licence fee. In our travels through the country we see poles and wires outside very many humble dwellings indicating that the inhabitants have wireless sets.

Wireless can be an agent of great good or great evil. In many countries it is regarded as being of the utmost importance in providing for the recreation of the people. I suggest that should be the attitude of our Minister too, and I further suggest to him that a large proportion of the money which his Department receives for this sponsored programme should be utilised in giving the best class of entertainment to the licence holders. According to the Estimate the cost of providing the programme for wireless holders is roughly £25,000. I think that another £10,000 might be spent in that direction so that real good value should be given to the many thousands who take out licences. I do not think that this service should be run as a money making concern. It should be run with efficiency and with a view to giving the best value possible to those who subscribe towards its upkeep by taking out an annual licence.

Mr. Traynor

I propose to deal with the various statements made by Deputies in the order in which they were made. Deputy Minch spoke of television and asked what we were doing in that respect. I can assure him that we are keeping the question under observation. Some of our technical officers are interesting themselves in the matter. The developments in other countries and so on are being watched, and I have no doubt that, in the course of time, television will be introduced here. We are watching the question very carefully, and hope to profit by the experience of other countries before entering into any commitments ourselves. The Deputy also referred to the supply of news. Year after year, we have explained our difficulty in regard to news and that explanation still stands. We have difficulty with the big news corporations—the Press Association, Reuter and others — and we are doing what is possible in the circumstances. I do not think that there is any foundation for the statement that any of the broadcasts from our station have been tainted or have leaned to one side or the other, but usually people with political minds see political hints in the news to which they are listening. Recently, I understand, that the same thing happened in England. The B.B.C. were broadcasting speeches made by Labour Deputies on Sundays and these speeches, because they came from Labour Deputies, were regarded as anti-Government propaganda by Government supporters, who protested vigorously against the use of the B.B.C. for propagandist purposes. Actually, the speeches were being broadcast because the B.B.C. thought the news had a certain value for the public. Of course, other people had a different view which only goes to show that, so far as the listener is concerned, we are all human in that respect. We see matters through our own coloured glasses and through no others.

Deputy McMenamin is, I think, labouring under a few delusions. He must not have studied the book of Estimates as carefully as he should have done. The musical director is a part-time official and the payment he is receiving is for that part-time service. The Deputy forgot to take into consideration that a cost-of-living bonus attaches to the salary of the engineer. That almost doubles the figure he quoted. Deputy McMenamin also made some references to the short-wave station and expressed fears as to how it might be used. So far as I know, it is to be only an experimental station. In the beginning, records will be largely utilised and we hope to find out, through the medium of these broadcasts, what the reception is like. We shall also use our own Radio Eireann programmes. I might say, in respect of the short-wave station, that since it was announced that we intended to erect even an experimental short-wave station, we have been asked by people abroad to speed the matter up as far as possible. The gramophone librarian, to which the Deputy referred, is a civil servant and is a woman. The £50 to which he referred is a special allowance given over and above the salary which she receives as a civil servant.

Deputy Hannigan referred to a few matters. I may say that, in the last two years, we have given an extension of time in respect of the Sunday-evening programmes. On week-days, we have extended the programmes by at least half an hour, which was as far as was possible in the circumstances. I do not know if the Deputy was here during my statement but I mentioned that the number of schools receiving the school programme which we radiate from 2.30 a.m. has increased from 200 to about 450, so that that branch of activity is also progressing. Of course, it is in the initial stages and will probably develop to a much greater degree in the future. I remember that the point raised by Deputy Corish regarding bad reception in Wexford was also raised by him last year. That is a matter which concerns us and we shall look into it again. The foreign station Klapeda is still causing a tremendous amount of interference with Radio Eireann and a deputation which is in Cairo will take that matter up and endeavour either to get us a new wavelength or to have this station put off our wave length. I do not think that any other questions were raised but, as a matter of interest, I think the House should know what the opinion of some of the foreign stations on our radio programmes is. Regarding the St. Patrick's Day programme, which was radiated at the request of the International Broadcasting Union to all European broadcasting services, we have received a letter from the Director-General of the Swiss Broadcasting Service. The following is an extract from that letter:—

"Your European concert of last night, which was relayed by our three national stations, Beromunster, Sottens and, Monteceneri surely meant a most agreeable surprise to all those who listened to those well-chosen melodies, full of freshness, and spontaneous originality. We must admit that on the Continent we had no idea about genuine Irish music and we were far from doubting that it could contain such treasures of popular tunes. This knowledge is now filled up in the most convincing manner and we highly appreciate the richness and naturalness of your homely music. As to the programme itself, we must address our congratulations to all those who contributed to its frank success—the soloists, the choir, the bag-pipers, the orchestra, the ceilidhe band and others, not forgetting the astonishing announcer whose practice in foreign tongues was almost bewildering. We overtook the modulation in Paris and compliment you equally on the technical side of the broadcast because it was absolutely clear and strong without fadings or other perturbations."

That is a magnificent letter and one we should be proud of. It is a very high tribute to Dr. Kiernan in respect of the particular broadcast in question.

These are two valuable comments, and I think the whole House will feel proud of the fact that they were received from these centres.

Mr. Brennan

They are very satisfactory.

Vote put and agreed to.

Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 31 Mar 1938