On the Money Resolution, I think the Minister ought to take the opportunity—at least we would be glad if the Minister would take the opportunity—to give us as far as he possibly can a complete picture of what is involved financially in this measure, and as far as he possibly can some idea as to what this measure is intended to do. Deputy Cosgrave asked the Minister on the Second Reading of this Bill if he would tell him what exactly the establishment and the development of the industrial alcohol industry to the extent contemplated by this Bill was intended to do for the country. Deputy Cosgrave said he could understand it if he were told explicitly it was for the purpose of giving employment to 250 men even for a period of a year; that he could understand it if he were told it was for the purpose of increasing the income of agriculturists; that he could understand it if he were told it was for the purpose of putting ourselves in the position that in case of the outbreak of war we would not be entirely dependent upon outside sources of supply for petrol; that he could understand something about the measure if he were told it was for the purpose of manufacturing munitions in the country. I cannot trace in any of the statements made by the Minister since Deputy Cosgrave asked those questions that the Minister has indicated what exactly is the purpose of the industry. When in 1934 it was indicated to the House that it was desired to carry on experiments to see the extent to which industrial alcohol could be efficiently produced in the country, the emphasis which seemed to be laid on the necessity for carrying that out was that in nearly every country in Europe something like it had been done. In so far as the matter was brought home to us here, it was indicated that we might hope to bring into cultivation a large area of land with resulting benefits to the farming community in direct cash payments and in by-products for feeding stock. I am reading from the Irish Trade Journal of September, 1935. It was indicated that it would increase employment and that it would to some extent reduce the dependence of this country on foreign supplies of petrol. At that time the position was that the experiment was going to be carried out. Now, without having made it clear as to what exactly this industry is going to do in the country, and without really giving us any idea of what the cost to the country in the long run is going to be, the Minister's statement on this Bill when it was last before the House indicated that an industry was being set up here which was going to produce industrial alcohol to an extent which was set out in that official statement in the Irish Trade Journal of September, 1935, as the maximum amount of alcohol capable of blending without introducing difficulty, that is 25 per cent. All that the Minister has said in the House seems to indicate that we are embarking on financial expenditure in setting up a fabric of production here that is going to put us in the position of producing, as far as volume is concerned, at any rate, 25 per cent. of the amount of petrol used here, that is the extent to which it was thought at that particular time it could be used without creating difficulty. I think the Minister has indicated in the statement he has made here that he has now come to the conclusion that 15 per cent. is the most suitable percentage to use, at any rate, for motor fuel.
However, that is one reason why I ask that the House should be told what purpose this is for. Apart from the money sunk in the experiment, and apart from the false ideas that the Minister came before the House with when dealing with the question at first, looking at some aspects of the situation we find that in this industry, which was going to assist farmers by paying them for an increased acreage of potatoes, a considerable sum of money has been sunk since 1935. In fact, at the end of March, 1937, £183,251 had been sunk in connection with the development of industrial alcohol. The estimate was that £80,000 would have come back to the Department to the end of March, 1938, as a result of the sale of industrial alcohol. While £183,251 has been spent, of the £80,000 that it was estimated would come back to the Department, not one penny has come back. It was estimated last year that £166,000 would have come back, but we have no information from the Minister as to what amount has come back. The position is that never in the history of this country was a smaller acreage of potatoes grown than in 1937. After what was spent in developing the idea, that industrial alcohol was going to be the medium of additional potatoes being taken from farmers, and a certain amount of money put into their pockets, never was there a smaller acreage grown than in 1937. For the information of Deputies, I may say that the acreage in the year 1931 was 346,073 acres; in 1934, when we were getting into this scheme, 342,918 acres, and every year since the acreage has been going down. In 1935 the acreage was 335,000 acres, and in 1936, 326,000. Between 1933 and 1934 there was a drop of 14,000 acres, but a scheme was put before us that, we were told, was going to increase the amount of money to be put into farmers' pockets, as a result of the increased purchase of potatoes for the development of this industry.
The Minister is faced already with the fact that the use of this alcohol to replace some of the motor spirit brought in is going to reduce the income of the Central Fund, by having less money coming from the imports of petrol. The Minister has not committed himself by saying what the price of petrol is going to be increased by as a result of the mixture of industrial alcohol with imported petrol. The fact is that, at the price the Minister is charging suppliers of petrol for industrial alcohol, every gallon of petrol is going to be increased by 2½d. for the 10 per cent. mixture, as ordered. That is going to cost road users £37,500 yearly, and the replacement of imported petrol by 10 per cent. of industrial alcohol is going to cost the Exchequer £13,000. The 10 per cent. mixture of industrial alcohol with petrol, that is made compulsory on motor users, is going to cost the taxpayers, who have to keep the Exchequer refilled, £13,000, and it is going to cost motor users £37,500. That is £50,000. That money alone would pay approximately £4 a week to 250 employees for the whole 12 months of the year, but they are not going to be employed for the whole 12 months.
Then again, the amount of money the Minister is liable for under the scheme, commits the State to £1,000,000 and we are told nothing of the three or four years' experiments; nothing of the real objects of the Bill, and nothing of the real financial effects. The only thing we do know about the Minister's outlook on the financial side of the measure is the change that has taken place in his whole outlook, as shown by the price now being charged petrol distributors for this stuff. The Minister dealt with the matter in February and May, 1934, and in answer to criticisms as regards the suggested price at which industrial alcohol was going to be sold, said on the 25th February, according to the Parliamentary Debates, column 2146:
"The price at which we contemplate that industrial alcohol will be available, allowing for potatoes, labour, coal and barley will not, in our opinion, exceed 1/9 and 1/10."
On May 29th, at column 1997, the subject of the Minister's estimate of 1/10 was again under discussion, and the Minister is reported as saying:
"As I was listening to Deputy Mulcahy and Deputy Dockrell trying to prove that this alcohol was going to cost anything up to 3/- a gallon, it just occurred to me that, possibly, when they were going to school mathematics was an optional subject. They did not succeed in proving anything like what they set out to prove."
The Minister, by way of example to prove that he was right, gave a roundabout sum like what appears in the Christmas numbers of some weekly journals. We get an answer now, and the answer is that the Minister is charging 3/- a gallon for industrial alcohol produced in these factories to the people to whom he is selling it. That is the only thing we know. That is the real kick. There is not much of a definite kick in it for any section of the people, as never before had we a smaller acreage of potatoes than we have now. There is not much of a kick coming to any particular person when he does not know exactly where this policy is leading. The motorists, even if they were paying the £37,000 a year additional, and the taxpayers, if they were paying only £30,000 additional, would not feel the kick so very much as the person who is made to feel it directly now, and that is the person who is the supplier of petrol and who has to pay 3/- a gallon for the stuff the Minister said he was going to produce at 1/9 and 1/10.
The Minister told us that he was going to have an export market for the wash. In his Estimates for the year 1936-37 he told the Dáil that he was going to put into the Exchequer by the sale by him at that time of industrial alcohol and wash, £80,000. The Appropriation Accounts now available for the last couple of months indicate that nil came in. From the Estimates which were put before us last year it appeared £166,840 was going to be received by the Department of Industry and Commerce for the sale of industrial alcohol and wash.
