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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jul 1939

Vol. 76 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Sugar (Prohibition of Import) Order—Motion

I move:

That Dáil Eireann hereby approves of the Sugar (Prohibition of Import) Order, 1939.

As Deputies are aware, the Sugar (Control of Import) Act of 1936 provides for the making, each year, of an order relating to the importation of sugar—prohibiting the importation of sugar except where it is subject to the conditions of the order. In accordance with the arrangement made in 1936 the amount of sugar which is required to be imported has been imported each year by the Irish Sugar Company. By an arrangement of fees, any profit derived by the Irish Sugar Company on imported sugar is obtained for the Exchequer. That has been done by an order each year since 1936 and this an order for the same purpose for the year 1939.

I would wish to spare the tender feelings of the Minister. He must excuse me if I again resort to the term suppressio veri. The Minister, in gentle accents, says that any profits made by the Irish Sugar Company on imported sugar go to the Exchequer, and the innocents abroad, who sit beside him, fold their hands. Do they realise that the profits referred to by the Minister represent a tax of about 2d. a lb. on sugar?

The total amount last year was £4,000.

Quite, but the Minister does not go on to mention the fact that the price of sugar imported by the Irish Sugar Company is 8/- free on quay at Dublin. Does he deny that?

Of course.

It arrives, free on quay, Dublin, at 8/-. There is then an excise duty placed upon it of, I think, 11/-.

Of course, that is true, but it has nothing to do with this order.

Wait a moment. That is only half the story, because we go on to the difference between the price got by the Irish Sugar Company for sugar and the import price of sugar, plus the revenue duty to which I have referred, and that difference, according to the Minister for Finance, on the total sugar consumed in this country, amounts to £1,000,000 sterling per annum.

Nonsense.

But on the imports by the Irish Sugar Company it represents, so far as I am aware, about 10/- a cwt. and is in fact, a further revenue duty levied by the Exchequer on sugar. It is just another method of introducing a Budget in which you put a shilling on the income-tax and announce that you are not going to put any tax on the breakfast tables of the poor.

Would it stop the Deputy if I said that it is estimated that there will be a loss this year?

You then proceed to enable the Irish Sugar Company to bring in foreign sugar and you collect from them the profit they make upon that sugar, a profit which is measured by the revenue duties which were imposed on sugar many years ago and which, in fact, correspond to a duty of about 2d. a lb on sugar; and on every pound of sugar that is imported by the Irish Sugar Company, taking into consideration the revenue duty they will pay on it and the profit they will collect from the public, the Treasury will receive, approximately 2d. a lb.— at least that. Are Deputies aware of that? I have not the slightest doubt in my mind that they are not aware of it, and that is why I am trying to inform them of it.

Over and above this, however, I should like to direct their attention to this little wrinkle: Messrs. Tate & Lyle were one of the principal firms in England that supplied this country with sugar, and they produced what was known as Tate's "Brights," which was a coarse sugar that was used extensively in Ireland. They also produced what was known, I think, as Tate's "Crystals," which was 3d. per cwt. cheaper but which is a fine sugar. Our people have always preferred Tate's "Brights," however. It is just a matter of preference. As between the two, I do not think there is much difference as to the sweetening quality, but our people prefer the coarse sugar. Now, the Irish Sugar Company produce coarse sugar also. But when you put the Irish sugar beside the Tate's sugar—that is the Tate's "Brights"— the latter looked much whiter than the Irish sugar and the sweetening quality, as we all know from our experience of the Tate Sugar Company, being refined from cane instead of beet and also due to the refining process employed in Great Britain being rather more elaborate than that employed in this country, was very much higher. The Irish Sugar Company, desirous to avoid a comparison being made between their "Brights" and the "Brights" that were imported from England, now refuse to import any of it, and all you can get in this country is the fine sugar because no comparison can be made between that and the sugar offered by the Irish Sugar Company. Incidentally, although this is a minor consideration, the fine sugar is 3d. cheaper and there is 3d. a cwt. more for the Treasury if you bring in the fine sugar and charge the same price as for Tate's "Brights."

This country has become so stupefied by one ruse after another for the plunder of the public for the benefit of the Treasury that they have ceased to be shocked by transactions of that kind. Nevertheless, lest such transactions should become an every-day custom of this country, it is right, on each occasion when the machinery for carrying these transactions through is brought before Dáil Eireann, that somebody should get up and remind the House that this is all part of a plan to pile up unnecessary expenditure on the backs of our people and deprive our people of many things they might enjoy if their resources were not being squandered in "cod" schemes such as this resolution is designed to promote.

Would the Minister say what is the estimate for the amount of sugar it is proposed to import during the current year? It is well known to everybody that the acreage under beet is considerably reduced, and would he tell the House what amount of sugar is going to be imported this year under this regulation?

I cannot give the Deputy the information he wants. Deputy Dillon will find it hard to convince the House that he is an expert on everything. He poses to be an expert on everything, but that pose, of course, destroys his effectiveness. If he pretended to be an expert on one thing he might get away with it, but when he pretends to be an expert on everything he is just being foolish. He is not an expert on sugar, at any rate. If he knows anything at all about it, he knows that a lot of what he has just been saying is sheer nonsense. I do not suppose that the fact that what he says is nonsense worries the Deputy very much. At least, that is the conclusion I have come to after sitting opposite to him for many years.

What is the price of imported sugar here in Dublin?

The price of imported sugar offered here in Dublin is about half the price charged for it in the country of origin.

That does not answer my question.

Let the Deputy work it out for himself.

He does not want to answer the question.

The particular point that arises——

Will you answer Deputy Curran's question?

The price of sugar fluctuates day by day, week by week and month by month.

But the average import price last year was 8/- per cwt.

I am not saying that the average price was 8/-, 9/- or 10/-. What has that got to do with it?

It has got everything to do with it.

We cannot debate the question now, at any rate. My humble opinion is that it has nothing to do with it.

That is not our opinion.

Until we produce all our sugar we must import some. We found that it was more convenient for everybody concerned that whatever quantity had to be imported should be imported by the Irish Sugar Company. We were in fact asked by the Irish Sugar Wholesalers to make that arrangement. We made that arrangement and it will continue for this year. It was recognised that because of the fluctuation in the price of imported sugar, the Irish Sugar Company would occasionally make a profit on imported sugar. In fact last year they made £4,000, a very small profit which has been secured for the Exchequer here. In this year because the price of foreign sugar is rising, while the price of home manufactured sugar is remaining stationary, we expect that they will make a small loss. The quantity imported to make good the deficiency in home production may be increased by the fact that some abnormal importation of sugar may be necessary to maintain our stocks of sugar in order to guard against any emergency which may arise. This order presents a businesslike arrangement. The difference to the Exchequer is negligible and the difference in the price of sugar is also negligible.

May I ask does the Minister state that the difference to the Exchequer in regard to imported sugar as opposed to sugar produced at Carlow is negligible?

There is no point in discussing the whole question of the economics of sugar production. We know, and everybody knows, that other countries are subsidising the export of sugar for years. We know that sugar which is sold in Czecho-Slovakia——

I am talking of sugar sold in England.

I am talking of sugar which we import which is sold at 6d. per lb. in the country of origin and which is sold here at ½d. per lb., it is subsidised to such an extent. The price which may be paid, irrespective of the customs duty, has nothing to do with the price of sugar. The Deputy said that we embarked on this scheme for the purpose of putting further burdens on the Irish people. We introduced this scheme for the purpose of giving the Irish people an additional cash crop, for the purpose of increasing the wealth of the country and to give an outlet for the employment of both men and capital. We shall continue that programme whether the Deputy likes it or not.

I asked the Minister a straight question and I respectfully ask him for a courteous reply. Is it correct to say that the difference, from the Exchequer point of view, between a cwt. of sugar manufactured in Carlow and a cwt. of sugar imported from England is negligible or is it true that on a cwt. of sugar imported the Exchequer gets £1, whereas on a cwt. manufactured in Carlow it gets little or nothing?

Is the Deputy trying to bring out the fact that there is a tax on sugar?

There is. It was imposed by Mr. Blythe in 1931.

And on every cwt. of sugar that is imported the consumer has to pay £1 to the Exchequer?

Would the Minister say what quantity is likely to be imported this year? He intimated that in certain conditions there was likely to be an abnormal import.

Does the Deputy want an estimate based on last year's figures?

Home production last year was about one-third under the previous year's production. Does the Minister anticipate that production will be down or up this year, or whether production will be restored to the previous year's figure?

The decline in production last year was due almost entirely to climatic conditions. The sugar content of the beet was abnormally low. It is impossible to say at present what this year's yield will be. We estimated at the beginning of the year for an increased yield.

Is the acreage not down?

The acreage is down slightly but that does not matter a lot.

Question put and agreed to.
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