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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Jul 1939

Vol. 76 No. 16

Committee on Finance. - Control of Imports (Quota No. 38) Order, 1939—Motion.

I move that Dáil Eireann hereby approves of Control of Imports (Quota No. 38) Order, 1939. This is a new quota order recently made and it applies to wood screws and metal screws with a slotted head and a tapered thread. As the House is aware, the manufacture of wood screws was protected here by a customs duty which was imposed at the comparatively high rate of 75 per cent. ad valorem. It was found, however, that the duty was ineffective against certain Continental countries which met the duty by allowing 75 per cent. discount off their list price for goods sent to this country. In such circumstances, it seemed that a prohibition of imports or a quantitative regulation of imports was a desirable course to follow but as a quantitative regulation of import of goods from the United Kingdom would be contrary to the spirit of the Trade Agreement made with that country, it was necessary to have consultations with the Government of the United Kingdom first. These consultations were held and this quota order was made with the consent of the Government of the United Kingdom. It provides for a restriction of importation of all forms of wood screws capable of being manufactured here. The balance, which consists of certain classes of screws not used here in such large quantities as to permit of their economic manufacture, will be imported from the United Kingdom.

When making this arrangement certain agreements were entered into. One of them was that the price of screws, whether manufactured here or imported, would be the same here as in Great Britain. That arrangement has been brought into effect and has resulted in a reduction of 10 per cent. on such screws sold here. The full requirements of all screws, whether manufactured here or imported, will be supplied through the same organisation so that adequate machinery will exist to ensure that supplies will be available of all classes and all types and sizes of screws without any difficulty arising for the retail or wholesale distributors of them. The result of the order is that the manufacture of screws, which had commenced here and which had ceased for a time because of Continental imports, has been resumed and will be developed until it has reached the stage at which every class of screw capable of economic manufacture here will be manufactured within the country——

"Economic" is good.

——and will be sold at the same price as in Great Britain.

The practice of suppressio veri in this House has now been reduced to a fine art. The implication of this motion is that a big bad wolf on the Continent, when Irish Wire Products, Limited, Limerick, started to make screws, by giving a large discount under-cut Irish Wire Products, Limited, and that nobody ever saw a Continental screw until this big bad wolf came along and forced them down our throat. What are the facts? Nobody but a lunatic has ever used a Nettlefold screw in this country for the past 20 years. Guest, Keen and Nettlefold bought the old Chamberlain family patent which made a fortune for the late Joe Chamberlain. That patent showed merely how to put a point on the end of a screw. They became screw manufacturers in Great Britain. They made magnificent screws. I bought hundredweights of them in my day but they could never compete with the Continental screw. For the rough carpentry job, a sane man would never use a Nettlefold screw because it would be there in his great grandson's time when the woodwork came to be taken down. They were much too good for work of that kind. For ordinary work, 90 per cent. of the screws used were Continental screws.

What has happened? The boys floated a company in Limerick. To my sorrow I went and put some money into it. They then discovered that they could not make nails without charging about 80 per cent. more than the price at which you could buy nails on the Continent. We plundered the public in the price of nails and screws and we are now being asked by the Minister to give a licence to plunder them still further. If supplies of raw materials from the Continent give out this industry will go up the spout, with all the other crazy schemes for which the Minister for Industry and Commerce has been responsible. Has it struck anybody as a bit odd that old man England, having stipulated against quota orders in the Trade Agreement has suddenly relented and said, in regard to screws, that a quota order may be permitted. It was sabotage, it was playing England's game, it was striking at the foundation of an Irish Ireland, to protest against these quota orders in former days. Now we are bound to contribute to a tariff of 75 per cent. to keep out the big bad wolf. We had been putting on a quota to protect the quivering person of this young Irish industry in Limerick, and then we discovered that it had grown a beard overnight, and that it is our old friend, Guest, Keen and Nettlefold from the South of England. The quota that was put up to keep this wicked man out of the country, the tariff that was raised to enable Irish industry to plunder the consumers of this country, is now being used to enable Guest, Keen and Nettlefold to do it as it never was done before.

Now, I will be told that screws here are to be sold at the same price as in England. Anybody with any knowledge of the carpentry trade knows that there are 140 different types of screws, and that in each type of screws there are about ten lengths, so if I buy a package of screws for sixpence I have got to satisfy the Prices Commission that they are of a strength and quality and length similar to a package of screws sold in Bristol. The difference in the price may be a penny, and I am told that my ability to do that and to recover from Guest, Keen and Nettlefold, situated in Limerick, one penny, is sufficient guarantee to ensure that their undertaking to sell screws at the same price as they are selling them in England will be carried out. Will anybody believe that? Here again, no individual citizen of this State is going to be crippled by the extra cost of screws and nails, because none of us buys very many screws or nails in our lifetime, but it all contributes to the fact that the cost of houses is getting dearer. It all contributes to the fact that the manufacture of goods in Irish factories is being made dearer because their raw materials are being made dearer. It all contributes to the fact that another company in this country is being given a wide open licence to rob the consumers in this State.

Sooner or later we have got to face the fact that every penny of public money, or money from the citizens' pockets, that is invested in companies which depend for their survival on a licence to rob the community, is money thrown away, because the community may stand that for a certain time but they are not going to stand it for ever. There is no reason on God's earth why I or any other citizen should be given a licence to plunder the public through shares in a bacon company or in a nail factory either. It is unjust. It is contrary to public policy, and it is fated to arouse an opposition from the public in this country which will eventually overwhelm not only this kind of "cod" factory but also good industrialists, who, if given a fair chance, would be able to do a useful job. If the Irish people are led ultimately to believe that every industry is run in this country by chancers who only want to shelter behind a quota to rob the consuming public, ultimately the public will come to lump all Irish industrialists together and say "They are a bad lot." To do so would be a libel on many good citizens in this State who have built up good industries, paid good wages, and charged fair prices for their products. All of us know that. There are individual manufacturers in this country who have done and are doing a good job. It is this kind of transaction which is besmirching their name. I submit, in view of the fact that we have to deal here with two import quota orders, and a prohibition order to follow in a moment, that I am legitimately entitled to refer to the consequences of this type of order and the way in which they are exploited.

Those quota orders are authorised by legislation which requires that they be submitted to the House. On each order, the House is confined to a discussion of that order. Otherwise the result would be that possibly three times in a week there might be a full-dress debate on tariffs, quotas and effects on industries. That would make the conduct of business impossible. The Deputy is confined to the one actually under consideration.

I want to direct the attention of the House to the abuses that this order makes possible. We get a control of imports quota order; the next step is that you proceed to dole out licences to certain selected individuals. As the Minister says, anyone who pays 1/- can go and find out who those licencees are. The number of persons who want to import nails is very limited. That limited group of persons who want to import nails get together, and they say: "Now, boys, let us import the nails, and, having got them in, why cut one another's throats to oblige the purchasers of nails? If we agree amongst ourselves to screw out of the public the last penny we can get out of them, we will make a killing, and who gives a damn?" They proceed to make the killing. The difficulty in exposing those matters in Dáil Eireann is that it is dreadfully difficult to find out the facts. I need hardly tell the House that the restricted group of warriors who exploit those quota orders are not going to come and tell me about it. Very rarely, I do discover what they are up to. I know of one quota order, analogous to this, which is at present being used to steal from the people of this country 80 per cent. of the cost price of the commodity, the stuff being brought in here at the present time at 12/- a cwt., and the public being charged £1. The importers will cock snoots at you if you remonstrate with them, and tell you if you do not like to take it from them you can so-and-so do without it; that there is only half a dozen of them bringing it in, and if you do not deal with them you can send your customers elsewhere.

Who confined it to half a dozen?

The Minister.

The Deputy is wrong.

The Minister is deliberately attempting to mislead the House. The suppressio veri——

The Minister may not be accused of deliberately attempting to mislead the House.

Then I withdraw the expression, unreservedly.

Mr. Boland

It does not matter in what language it is said. It does not matter whether it is in Latin, Dutch or English if you say the same thing.

I have not employed any Dutch in the last few minutes.

Mr. Boland

There are two official languages, and I think the Deputy should be confined to them.

Oh, the Minister objects to suppressio veri?

After all, we have just introduced a measure for the establishment of an institute for higher studies in this country.

The need for it is obvious.

All I say is that the ability with which the Minister waxes eloquent without dealing with any of the relevant facts—surely that is parliamentary language—is magnificent. The Minister says that he has no hand, act, or part in preventing all and sundry importing anything they want if they choose to register. That is strictly true within certain limits. Anyone who goes for the register at the proper time can get on it. Suppose he does, he is first asked: "How much of that stuff did you bring in during the last two years"? He says: "None, because I could get my supplies on the quays in Dublin." Then he is told: "Your quota is three onions, and in importing the onions I may add that no ship which carries the other fellow's onions will carry yours, so you must hire the mail boat, put the three onions on the main deck, transport them to Dublin and sell them if you can. They will not let you into the fruit market so you can peddle them as best you can." The normal fellows dealing in onions can get in the usual supply.

That is a long way from screws.

Yes, but they are being brought in at 12/- and sold at £1. The Minister contends that the right to import those commodities is available for everybody. How can you import those commodities if you are not in the trade? What use is it to me to tell me I can get on the importers' register? What use is it to tell any importer of screws or onions in this State who sells only three bags of screws or onions in the week, that he can import them? The only man who can import them is the man who can bring in a quantity to justify the freight rate. The cheapest freight rate from abroad, on screws——

That does not bring the matter into order. The Deputy should appreciate this fact, that legislation in this House has authorised these orders, and it is obvious that the annulment of that legislation cannot be advocated on every quota order that comes up for approval. The Chair, therefore, must confine the Deputy to screws, and nail him down to that subject.

I put it to the House that this order means that a very restricted number of persons who are in a position to buy screws in large bulk are now made monopolists of the screw and nail industry. In fact, this is going to operate to make Irish Wire Products, Ltd., the sole concessionaires in respect of this commodity and will result in the producers of these commodities making a fortune. I feel bound to say this: A public man is in a difficulty because, if he speaks strongly, and it is subsequently discovered that he is interested in the concern he is denounced as a hypocrite. This is jam for me personally. I hold stock in Irish Wire Products, Ltd., a small quantity from the point of view of the company, but a very consider able investment from my point of view. So far as I am concerned, this is jam for me. I am going to make profits such as I made in the bacon industry. I want to say now that you ought not to give me the right to rob the community here.

We did not give you the right. When you tried, we prosecuted you.

I say to you that the companies to which I have referred made rings around the Minister, pulled wool over his eyes, tied him up in a bag, and threw him away, and we robbed the community in spite of him. I tell the House that if this monopoly is given to Irish Wire Products, Ltd., the community will be robbed in exactly the same way as the Prices Commission found that the bacon industry robbed the community in the past. I say to the House that they ought not to do it. You ought to go to these people, if you are determined to protect them, and say to them, "What degree of protection do you want; is it 10, 20, 30 or 40 per cent.?" If they say that they cannot do it with less than 100 per cent., then I would say to them, "Blow up your factory and clear out; you are not a benefit to the country; you are a nuisance." If they can say that with a modest protection they can develop the industry and build it up here, I would say: "There is your protection; produce good goods, charge the British price plus three-quarters of the measure of protection we are giving you, and you will be able to compete with any competitors who come along." If you say to them, "Not only are we going to give an adequate tariff but we are going to prohibit imports altogether," it does not matter what Prices Commission you have or what attempted supervision there is by the Minister, that company will rob the community here, because that company will want to make profits, and it will make them. Every Deputy knows that that is true.

As I say, our loss as the result of the manufacture of nails and the monopoly therein is not going to be great, but what alarms me about the whole business is that when we prove that this factory or that factory has made excessive profits and the temptation is put in its way by these quota orders, we cannot segregate that factory in the public mind, and instead of protecting the industrial life of the country we inevitably build up in the public mind the idea that every Irish manufacturer is doing the same thing. That is not true. We have never so alleged. What I am trying to impress on the Minister is that he should not, by this order, tempt this company or any other company to make excessive profits at the expense of the public and that that is what he is doing, because by putting that temptation in their way and by inducing them to do it, they are going to bring discredit on the entire industrial life of the country, to the ultimate grave detriment of the State as a whole.

I appreciate a great deal of what Deputy Dillon has said but, in this particular instance of screws, from information at my disposal I understand that the price for screws is a world price made by Nettlefolds. I have seen invoices for screws with 83½ per cent. taken off the world price. These are Continental screws. I seriously suggest that if we are starting an infant industry here and are up against battalions of Continental capital, with low prices, low wages, etc., it would be impossible for us to compete against a firm sending in stuff on the terms I have mentioned if the protection sought is not given. I am not defending all that is being done under quota orders. I contend that some quota orders are not justified. But, where there is a definite attempt being made in this country to manufacture articles that are protected, it is a different matter. My information is that there is a world price for screws laid down by the firm of Nettlefold and from that standard price the invoices stated that 83½ per cent. would be taken off. How could any Irish factory, starting off compete with that? We are compelling that factory to pay good wages and have decent conditions of employment, and they are doing it. If it gets proper protection, I believe that the factory is capable of making good. But that cannot be done if there is not some protection against the dumping of screws at an uneconomic price. The British will not send in screws at that price. We have nothing to fear from them. If it is said that the screws can get in by backdoor methods, that is another matter. The real menace is the Continental screws which are not made under decent conditions of labour. In these circumstances, I am suggesting that this is a very necessary precaution and that we ought to approve of this quota order.

It is very difficult to know where to start to put Deputy Dillon right. He started off by saying that for the last 20 years nobody in this country bought any screws except Continental screws. In fact, he said a man would be mad if he bought anything but Continental screws.

I said no such thing. I said that any ordinary person doing common woodwork will not use Nettlefold's screws, but that any person doing good woodwork would use them.

If the Deputy went to the Library and examined our trade and shipping statistics for the last ten or 20 years, he would not make that statement; he would know that it is absolute nonsense. Unless, of course, the Deputy alleges that our statisticians were fooled by these people who are such nefarious and dishonest men that they will only tell Deputy Dillon about them, or that the Revenue Commissioners were misled by false certificates of origin. Anyway, so far as the statistics show, more than 80 per cent, in volume and value, of the screws imported here before the duty was imposed came from the United Kingdom. That is fact No. 1. Fact No. 2 is that the factory in Limerick has not sold out to Messrs. Guest, Keen and Nettlefold. There has been no change in the ownership. The Deputy could have found that out quite easily in a manner which I do not like to suggest.

Did the Minister see the circular from Messrs. Guest, Keen and Nettlefold that I referred to?

Yes, that future orders sent to Messrs. Guest, Keen and Nettlefold will be sent to Limerick. The Deputy's statement that the factory in Limerick has sold out is not true.

Tell us what has happened.

They have not. The Deputy is in a much more favourable position than other members of the House to find out what the truth is.

What is the truth?

By this arrangement which I am asking the House to approve of these screws will be made here by an Irish company.

Are Messrs. Guest, Keen and Nettlefold to get nothing?

Nothing out of the screws made here.

If you are innocent enough to believe that, I am not.

I happen to know that it is true. We are told that the screws are to be dearer. We have been told that screws will be dearer, and that the people will be exploited as a result of the quota order. The direct result of the making of the quota order will be to reduce the price of screws.

English screws.

Irish screws. Deputy Keyes knows a little about this matter. Screws everywhere are sold at the same price, Dutch screws, Swedish screws, Belgian screws, Irish, English and Ballaghaderreen screws. The difference in the actual cost to consumers was due to very exceptional discount on the price that was allowed in this country, and only in this country, by certain Continental firms exporting screws here. The Irish firm was unable to compete with screws sold under these conditions. However, the position in future will be that quality for quality, size for size, and quantity for quantity, the price here will be the same as in Great Britain. The Deputy said we could not expect a young Irish firm coming into the business for the first time to compete on the same terms as old established firms. Well they are going to do it. They are going to manufacture screws as good as those manufactured in Great Britain and sell them at the same price. That is something of which the average Irishman would be proud, and boast of, but Deputy Dillon merely indulged in a tirade.

I can say in my case that I put money into it to my cost.

The Deputy said that this order was designed to give an opportunity to make excessive profits in an industry run by "chancers". These were the words the Deputy used. If he wishes to withdraw them I will give him ample opportunity. The Deputy said that eminent people associated with this industry were "chancers". I do not think they are. I think those people who put their capital into an Irish industry are people of enterprise, and I hope it will be successful and that they will get reasonable profits. It is essential that profits should be earned in successful Irish industries. I do not think we can develop industries unless profits are made. I assure the House that the price paid here will be the world price, the price at which screws are sold in other countries, and that is a sufficient guarantee that there will not be excessive profits. If in the making of screws, quality for quality, size for size, this company makes profits, I say more luck to them. The Deputy said a few words about quotas in general and tried to make us believe that certain abuses were going to arise out of the operation of the quota order. The procedure under which quota licences are issued are laid down by law. The law provides for the establishment of a register and prescribes the principles upon which licences are granted to those names who appear on the register. I notice that the Deputy hops from one foot to the other with extraordinary speed. When I referred him to the quota order he said that if the name of a newcomer was put on the register he would be given the minimum quota. That is correct. In the discussion of item No. 4 the Deputy's complaint was the reverse, but the point of the complaint then was that we were giving licences to newcomers going into a trade to the detriment of old established business. Which way does the Deputy want it? He cannot have it both ways. The practice is well known. The old established firms who previously imported get the larger licences. They get licences for quantities in relation to their previous imports as certified by auditors, and new firms coming into the business come in on the basis of the minimum quota for a period. We think that is the most equitable way to arrange this matter. That is what we are doing. May I say that it has won the approval of responsible businessmen that we have come into contact with. It is my experience that it is much easier to operate the control of imports by means of quota orders than by any other method. It has been my experience that the operation of the control of import orders has secured more general satisfaction amongst the business community than any other method. I know that the Deputy is not prepared to approve of quota orders at all. As this factory is in Limerick anything that could be done to improve employment there would be all right. While the Labour Deputy did not approve of the principle, when it is in Limerick it is all right. If this factory was in Cork we would have the same speech from a Cork Deputy as Deputy Keyes made. I can assure Deputy Dillon that we will take all the steps necessary to ensure that the public will not be robbed by persons getting licences to import commodities that are the subject of quota orders. The Deputy should know that we have fairly effective powers. I must say that our experience has shown that there have been very few attempts at profiteering. The general conclusion of persons who have been investigating this matter on the Prices Commission is that profiteering practically does not exist. In one or two cases where excessive charges were being made and we had legal powers we dealt with the matter. The Deputy need not be so fond of accusing everyone else of that particular form of sin as it does not exist anywhere around Ireland to any extent, any more than it exists in Ballaghaderreen.

Mr. Dillon rose.

The Minister has concluded.

I want to ask a question. Is the Minister aware, when he speaks of world prices for screws of 82? per cent. that since early in the 20th century the price of a variety of standard commodities was fixed in a purely arbitrary method and never changed. The practice in this particular trade was to vary the discount. In fact you have archaic prices for screws, and articles like wooden moulds. The price charged for moulding, such as adorns the Gallery, is the same as when it was made by hand, but discounts are now 70 per cent. and 80 per cent., since they are made by machinery. The old standard price was not changed. Moulding can be bought at 7/6 per cwt., less 80 per cent. Screws can be bought at a certain price, less 70 per cent. or 65 per cent. Instead of changing the price of these commodities the discount is moved up and down and prices often bear no relation to the original cost. It is the same with galvanised netting wire.

I ask that the question be now put.

I want to ask the Minister if his mind was addressed to that fact when discussing screws, or whether in this case, as in many others, the wool was pulled over his eyes.

The Deputy, having asked to be allowed to put a question, should not make a speech.

The Minister would not give the facts and I have not been able to extract them.

Question put.
The Dáil divided: Ta, 65; Nil, 32.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Allen, Denis.
  • Beegan, Patrick.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Boland, Patrick.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Brian.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Briscoe, Robert.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Carty, Frank.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Davin, William.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flinn, Hugo V.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • Loughman, Francis.
  • Lynch, James B.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • Murphy, Timothy J.
  • Norton, William.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O Ceallaigh, Seán T.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Pattison, James P.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Laurence J.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Benson, Ernest E.
  • Brasier, Brooke.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William J.
  • Broderick, Seán.
  • Browne, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • Daly, Patrick.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, John L.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Gorey, Denis.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • O'Sullivan, John.
  • Redmond, Bridget M.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers—Tá: Deputies Little and Smith; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
Order approved accordingly.
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