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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 7 Dec 1939

Vol. 78 No. 9

In Committee on Finance. - Ministers and Secretaries (Amendment) Bill, 1939—Committee Stage.

Section 1 put and agreed to.
SECTION 2.

I move amendment No. 1:—

At the end of the section to add a new sub-section as follows:—

(5) The provisions of this section shall cease to have effect at the expiration of two years from the date of the passing of this Act, and the Department of State set up thereby shall cease to function.

Seeing that this Department is being set up, and as we are by no means convinced, so far as our experience goes, of the necessity for setting up a separate Department and all that it involves, basing that attitude of ours on the experience we have had of the Department of Supplies as it has been in operation since the Dáil met at the beginning of last September, we should like some justification for the setting up of this Department. What we do want is to see that the actual period is limited. The Minister in charge of the Bill on the last occasion made it clear that it would require amending legislation if this new Ministry were abolished. We prefer to approach it rather from the other direction. We are giving a reasonable time. If the war should continue, and it is still thought desirable to continue the Department beyond the limit we suggest, we propose that the amending legislation should be to continue the Department and not to bring it to an end. We have had experience of the highly unsatisfactory way in which that particular Ministry has operated up to the present and of the equally unsatisfactory way in which information has been refused, as far as possible, to the Dáil and to the public in connection with that particular Ministry. For that reason I propose this amendment.

I ask the Deputy not to press this amendment, not because I am not in sympathy with the point of view which he has put before the House, but because the Minister for Finance has been advised that it would be inconsistent with the legal conception of a corporation sole to have a limited term of life imposed upon it. We can take it that this Department will exist only for the period of the emergency. Even when the emergency terminates, it will be necessary to come to the House in order to fulfil the undertaking which I am now giving. It will be necessary to come to the House and submit to it legislation for the winding up of the Department. If there were another Government here at the end of the emergency and it had a contrary view to that held by us, it would, nevertheless, still be necessary for that Government to come here and ask the House to give it certain powers in order to wind up undertakings which might have been set on foot by the present Minister for Supplies to cope with the emergency. There would, therefore, be another opportunity for the House to consider this matter. Opportunities will be given from year to year to consider the activities of the Department of Supplies but, apart altogether from the opportunities that will arise on the Estimate, the House will, I think, take it as a matter of course that other legislation will have to be submitted in due course dealing with this question of the Department of Supplies. Our anticipation is that that legislation will provide for the winding up of that Department. If we should not be here to accept responsibility for that winding-up, whoever would succeed the present Government would have to come to the House for that or for another purpose. The view I am urging on the Deputy is one that has been pressed upon me—that is, that the idea of instituting a corporation sole and imposing upon it, in the same legislation, a term of life is not regarded as being legally or legislatively desirable.

I should like the Minister to develop that point further. He has been very general and nebulous in attempting to state to the House the difficulty that would arise by establishing this Ministry for a limited time. If this Ministry is set up to get us over present-day difficulties, I suggest that, from the point of view of the Minister's own Department and the Department concerned, its work requires to be thoroughly and effectively done. I think that his own Department would be more effectively controlled and that it would be clearer as to where the line of demarcation came between the responsibilities and the work of the Department of Industry and Commerce and the responsibility and the work of the Department of Supplies if it was clearly set out in law that this new Ministry was merely temporary. We had a situation here to-day in which unsatisfactory production in one of our industries was discussed not by the Minister for Industry and Commerce but by the Minister for Supplies. I do not believe that either the Minister for Industry and Commerce or the Minister for Supplies knows where he stands in regard to his responsibilities for production in Irish manufactures. We are going to fall between two stools in regard to many interests attached to production in our industries and, perhaps, in regard to the amount of employment and the conditions of employment in these industries.

It is desirable that we should not allow a situation to be created which would enable the Minister for Industry and Commerce to shelve certain responsibilities and shut his eyes to particular things by pretending to himself and others that it is the Ministry of Supplies that should look after them. There are certain limited and narrow matters concerned with supply with which the Minister for Supplies might very well be entirely concerned instead of having this "passing of the baby", as it is being passed, from one Department to another. I also think that economy in staffing and efficiency in the setting up of the Department of Supplies are important matters. Elimination of waste is also important. On these grounds alone, the House should not admit for a moment by legislation that a fully-fledged Department, which could involve itself in all sorts of long-term responsibilities and commitments, should be established. Unless a very strong and detailed case is made for enshrining in this Bill a Department of Supplies in terms which would imply that it was going to be a permanent Department, the House should not accept the proposal.

May I put a consideration to the Deputy? As Deputy O'Sullivan indicated, no person can foresee when this emergency will end. The problems which warranted the calling into existence of this Department warrant the continuance of it during the period of the emergency. The emergency itself is of indefinite term. Nobody is able to foresee when it will end. Here is the difficulty. The Department of Supplies has been set up and the Minister for Supplies has been brought in because it is necessary to create him a corporation sole so that he may be able to enter into valid contracts and carry on the business of the Department. What would be the position of a person who entered into a contract with a legal person who by law was to cease to exist within a limited period? One does not know what issues might arise out of a contract of that sort. A person likes to feel that he will have a remedy so long as the legal person involved exists, but if you say that the corporation sole must end within 12 months or two years, who is going to enter into a contract with such a person? The corporation sole may vanish into thin air and an aggrieved party may be left absolutely without a remedy. We are advised that the best line to take is to have no term of life inserted in connection with the corporation sole when it is being set up. Inevitably, the Government will have to come to the House to wind up some of these transactions and to have them transferred to other Departments. In the meantime, we are advised very strongly that we should not appear to vitiate the legislation setting up the Department by imposing a term upon its life.

I grasp the legal difficulty, that the Department must continue in existence until all legal claims are satisfied. Will the amending legislation to which the Minister refers cover that matter also?

That will have to be covered. A successor will have to be appointed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

On the section, I gathered from the Minister that this is definitely an emergency measure, and that there is a pledge that, once the present European situation and its immediate aftermath pass, this Ministry will cease to exist.

Within a reasonable period.

Yes, I referred to the aftermath. The Minister's experience is not too short as to fail to remember the emergency legislation we had in the way of one of the most important of all functions—taxation. That was passed by this House to meet the situation created by the dispute with Great Britain, but it is functioning, if possible, more gaily than it ever did during that dispute. Experience makes us rather slow to accept a situation of this kind. War taxation is one of the most permanent forms of taxation. We are assured, when it is going through, that it is meant merely to meet an existing crisis, but, from past experience, we know that such a thing far outlasts the crisis concerned, and, very often, becomes the most permanent piece of legislation on the Statute Book. However, I did understand from what the Minister said that, when the crisis and its aftermath have passed, this particular Department of State will be abolished. That is what I understood the Minister to say.

Well, I shall not put myself in that strait-jacket. This is the way I take it: That, if it is clear, or if it is generally admitted, that there is no need, after this period of emergency, for the continuance of this Ministry, it will not be maintained. Deputy O'Sullivan has referred to former emergency legislation, but I have been rather struck by the way in which that legislation has been regarded by the House. I think that its general utility, from the way in which it has been operated within the past few years, has been generally recognised. Numerous Bills, imposing emergency orders, have been before the House within the last few years. On occasion, there has been discussion about various items in the Schedules of these Bills, but the Bills themselves have not been opposed in principle.

That is nonsense.

We have objected to them as a whole. I am sorry that the Minister bases his objection to the amendment on that argument.

Well, if so, I must have formed a completely wrong impression of the opinion of the House with regard to this matter. I thought that it was in order to get over certain difficulties that a certain amount of notice should be given that certain duties were about to be imposed, so that Deputies might be given an opportunity to oppose these duties if they were inclined to do so. If any Deputy has strong views about the defects of the measure, I am quite prepared to listen to him with regard to any particular point, but my understanding from the House was that the measure itself was not being opposed.

On the other hand we only stopped criticising that measure because of the shortage of paper and the necessity for economy in printing.

If that is so, then the attitude of the House is different from what I thought.

Did it ever strike the Minister to ask why there is no opposition on these matters? A very different situation occurs when a case has been before the House for four, five, or even eight months, to that which exists when we are presented with what is practically a fait accompli.

I should like to be told what we are discussing at the moment.

We are discussing a case of parliamentary precedent that has been raised by Deputy O'Sullivan.

Well, Sir, will Deputy O'Sullivan define what he means when he speaks of the European situation or the aftermath of the war?

I would ask Deputy Moore to try to get back to some clarity on this matter. From what the Minister has told the House, I understood him to say that this is only an emergency Ministry. Now, would the Minister be prepared—forgetting any words that have been said on the subject so far—to express to the House, in his own words, the pledge that he is giving to the House with regard to the termination at some time or another of this Ministry?

All I can say is that this Ministry has been set up as a result of the problems which this particular emergency has created. Personally, I think that the usefulness of such a Ministry will cease with the termination of the present crisis or emergency, and that, therefore, such a Ministry should not exist once that crisis or emergency has passed; but I am not prepared to pledge myself now —perhaps two or three years in advance—that this Ministry will cease to exist, irrespective of whether or not it may be found to perform some function, which may have originated out of the emergency, but which may be found to be a very useful function, the continuance of which would be desirable.

I could not undertake to do that. I certainly would not be prepared to do so because, speaking, perhaps, two or three years in advance, I could not pledge myself as to what I might do, not knowing the circumstances that might then exist. I can only say that I cannot conceive, at the moment, the necessity for keeping such a Department in existence once the crisis is over.

So that, evidently, the intention is to make it permanent?

The intention, evidently, is to introduce national socialism.

It would seem to be so.

If the Minister would accept this amendment, I think there would be no difficulty in that connection.

As I see it, it is not intended that this should be a permanent Ministry, and that it is occasioned by the present emergency.

Yes, but I could not pledge myself two or three years in advance as to what the House might wish to do.

The Minister displays a certain aptitude in interpreting the wishes of the House. He says that the House might wish certain things to be done.

Surely, Fine Gael hope to come back to office some time?

Yes, and to adopt some good principle of government.

Question put: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Tá, 54; Níl, 34.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Bourke, Dan.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • Everett, James.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter J.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Victory, James.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Belton, Patrick.
  • Bennett, George C.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Coburn, James.
  • Cogan, Patrick.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Curran, Richard.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, John L.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Keating, John.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Mongan, Joseph W.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Donovan, Timothy J.
  • O'Neill, Eamonn.
  • O'Sullivan, John.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Brady; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

On Section 3, perhaps the Minister might explain what the "other means" are?

Any other means than the formal making of an order. I will give a case in point. Take the case of the transport industry. The Minister for Industry and Commerce will remain, under the Act, responsible for the management of the transport industry, yet the proper working of it might depend on the question of the supply of petrol. The Government might decide that it is not necessary to make a formal order that the Minister for Supplies would be responsible for looking after the import end or the maintenance of the necessary supplies of petrol for the proper working of the transport industry. That would be done rather as a matter of discussion between the Departments than by making a formal order.

A difficulty might arise, perhaps, on certain questions. For example, the Minister for Industry and Commerce might be sued in case there was any infringement of the law by the Minister for Supplies. I think we can take it that the Attorney-General would ensure that, if any question of proceeding against a Minister were involved, they would be taken against the appropriate Minister, the Minister for Supplies or the Minister for Industry and Commerce as the case might require.

But what is the position of the House? The difficulty really is that we do not know which of the Ministers is responsible for certain things. For instance, there is one Parliamentary Secretary and I often have cause to wonder to whom he is the Parliamentary Secretary. I came in here at the end of September and I found he was answering on behalf of the Minister for Supplies, and to-day he was answering for the Minister in charge of this Bill.

He happens to fill the two offices.

We never know at the moment what Minister is in charge of a particular thing. It is very difficult for the House, as well as for anybody else, to understand the position. Surely the proper thing to do is not merely to have a formal order, but that it should be published? If the Minister gives a moment's thought to it, he will see that is highly desirable, both from the legal point of view that he has mentioned, and from the point of view of the general public. The courts might not take the view of the Attorney-General on this matter. Very often when a matter comes before them, as I understand it, the procedure is that it is found it is not brought against the proper Minister. You will have to get the whole thing changed.

I am looking at this matter from the point of view of the House and the public outside. They are completely in ignorance of the various planets that revolve around this sun. There is considerable doubt as to the place where the responsibility lies. It is impossible to know which Minister is really responsible. If there is to be this chopping and changing of subjects that a Minister has definitely to deal with, it will only lead to further confusion. If that chopping and changing is to continue, and the House and the public are to know nothing about it, and there is to be no publication of such changes, surely that is highly undesirable. If it is too late to alter that now, I suggest the Minister should do it in another place. He should see to it that in future no such thing should be done unless by Order, and all such changes should be published in the Iris Oifigiúil.

I take it, by the number of staff and the size of the premises that have been transferred to the Minister for Supplies, and the extent to which we hear about him both in parliamentary questions and in the Press, that he has been entrusted with some definite functions and duties. Will the Minister say if any of them have been entrusted to him by Order? I would expect that the main functions and duties of the Minister for Supplies were transferred to him by Order, and that in future any substantial duty transferred to him will be done by Order. Could the Minister give the House an outline of the functions and duties that have been transferred to this Department which is provided for here? Will he say by whom the Orders were made and where, and in what manner, the Orders were published?

The functions which have been transferred to the Minister for Supplies are, roughly, those which are covered by Section 2—they are functions of that nature, all those functions which would fall within the categories there set out. These functions have been transferred by Emergency Order. The Emergency Orders are procurable at the Stationery Office. As to the question of making transfers by means other than Emergency Orders, that is intended to cover the transfer of minute details and border-line questions which might equally well lie in one Department or the other. The transfer would not be made by formal Order, but, nevertheless, there would have to be a record of it. I shall endeavour to see whether it would not be possible to have that information given, through the Press, to the public, whenever an intimation of that sort would seem to be necessary.

It is difficult, and I frankly admit it, to draw the line of demarcation between the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Supplies, because there are activities which merge from one Department into the other. It is only day-to-day experience which is showing us what minor matters should be allocated to one Department or the other. Broadly, the functions of the present Minister for Supplies are those set out in Section 2 of the Bill.

There is a Department of Supplies set up and it has a big staff. Perhaps the Minister might be able to give some information on this point. He will remember that his successor in another Department indicated that considerable economies were made in the Department of Industry and Commerce in the way of staff. Have there been considerable economics made in the Department of Industry and Commerce as against the present Department of Industry and Commerce plus the Department of Supplies? When you take these two Departments together, and compare their staffing with the old staffing of the Department of Industry and Commerce, has there been any diminution of staff?

I could not answer that question. I know that certain members of the staff of the former Department of Industry and Commerce have been transferred to the Department of Supplies.

I wonder are these the great economies that the Minister's colleague referred to? Economies were made in the Department of Industry and Commerce, but apparently the staff, and possibly more than the staff, that was saved there was put into another Department.

I do not know.

If that is the sort of information that can be given to the House on an important subject like economies, then it is completely misleading, if what I say is possible. We should get every piece of information about these changes. As it is, we do not know where we are. We are told, if we raise a question as to whether there is any economy in staff in the Department of Industry and Commerce, that there is a considerable economy, but we are not told at the same time that a new Department is being built up and what is saved in the one case is put on in the other, and possibly added to. Even the Ministers do not seem to know anything definite on these subjects.

Can the Minister tell us if Orders have been issued covering the transfer of any particular functions?

Emergency Orders have been made covering the transfers.

Section 3 agreed to.

On Section 4, is there any example at all of the usefulness of the new Minister?

It is obvious, for instance, in regard to defence services, that the emergency has brought into being new services and their operations must be co-ordinated with those of the land forces. There are a number of other things.

Is that a portfolio or a non-portfolio?

I imagine it is a portfolio.

There is an extraordinary silence, all the more extraordinary coming from the present Minister, when he is asked to give a useful example of the type of man he has in mind. He knows the type of man that is in mind, but he does not think of a useful example and, so far as this House is concerned, he is not very convincing. He made reference to the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures. Of our Army and Navy is it? Is it a Minister for that? Now, really, does the Minister seriously think that is necessary? In this particular matter there seems to be no particular example that he can give as to why it is necessary to bring in this at the present moment.

Why is it this man may have entrusted to him by the Executive Council certain duties of an administrative character?

I would rather not go into that now.

I think if the Minister looked up the Bill he will find that in Section 7 any member of the Government may be entrusted, as far as I know, with various work.

That is not the point.

I will accept the Minister's disavowal that that is not the intention. Apparently it is not the intention to entrust this man with any administrative work.

So much depends upon what conception one might have of the functions of such a Minister. I am not saying that the Minister without portfolio could not be entrusted with the work, but I think the need for such a Minister may arise rather quickly during an emergency, and that his principal job would be the co-ordination of other ministries.

He is now the Minister who takes on the work of the Taoiseach—the co-ordination of other ministries.

Yes; in fact he would be a kind of vice-Taoiseach or he would be a kind of Tánaiste in fact.

Not necessarily.

It is really peculiar at this particular stage when there is a demand for economy—at a time when expenses are rising—that no effort is made even to indicate what is in the mind of the Ministry as to what they mean by this measure. The Minister says that we can conceive his functions. I yield to him to give him an opportunity of explaining. I am waiting to hear his explanation of what the functions of this man are to be.

Why does the Government consider it necessary to have legislation at all to create a Minister without portfolio? If there is adequate provision in the Constitution for such a Minister it does not seem necessary that there should be any legislation passed to bring him into being. Article 28 of the Constitution deals with the Government of Éire, and paragraph 1 of that Article says: "The Government of Éire... shall consist of not less than seven and not more than 15 members who shall be appointed by the President...." There is nothing whatsoever in that part of the Article which necessitates any Minister being in charge of any particular Department. Then the matters which are to be dealt with by law are to be found in that Article in paragraph 12: "The following matters shall be regulated in accordance with law, namely, the organisation of and distribution of business amongst Departments of State, the designation of members of the Government to be Ministers in charge of the said Departments, the discharge of the functions of the office of a member of the Government during his temporary absence or incapacity, and the remuneration of the members of the Government." I submit, Sir, that on the reading of these two paragraphs of Article 28 together it is open to have a Minister without portfolio without any special legislation from this House. The only reason I can adduce why the Government consider it necessary to have this particular section in the Bill is that they doubt whether there is any power under the Constitution to interpret the Constitution in the way I have suggested. I say that power is either to be found in the Constitution, or if it is not there this House cannot create such a ministry.

Will the Minister indicate what the functions of this man are to be?

The Deputy is talking as if there was an appointment in prospect. I do not say there is, but I can conceive the need for having a Minister without portfolio who would not be burdened with the day to day departmental duties or business of a particular Department and who would —not in the circumstances as they exist at the moment but in circumstances as is reasonable to believe might exist— have emergency functions to deal with. That is to say when there would be some person who would be free of the day to day departmental duties of an office and who could devote himself to this business. I am glad to see that Deputy Esmonde does not take the view of Deputy Costello that an appointment of this sort is ultra vires of the Constitution. The argument he has so forcibly put to the House is that under the Constitution it would be competent for the Government to appoint a Minister without portfolio without coming to the House at all.

Does the Minister agree with Deputy Esmonde that it is not necessary to pass this Bill at all?

We really want Deputy Ryan to agree with Deputy Esmonde.

The Minister does not know anything about the Constitution or the particular section in this Bill.

I am taking the guidance of the only lawyer present in the House.

The point was raised on the Second Reading, and the Government had notice of the point— Deputy Costello's point was that it was doubtful if the Government had power under the Constitution to create a Minister without portfolio. If they have such power under the Constitution, then it does not require any further legislation to bring such a Minister into existence.

The Minister now asks the House, and everybody outside the House who is interested in expenditure, to believe that without having anything in their minds to indicate to the country as clearly as they can indicate that they are taking power to create a Minister without portfolio; that they are going to exercise that power. That is the only meaning of bringing in this legislation now in this particular way. It is not meant to be purely on paper. I cannot imagine a Government seriously making a proposition that may involve at the pure whim or wish of the Government the appointment of a Minister without portfolio. They propose to take that power, and yet the suggestion now conveyed is that they have no intention of using it. I think that is a thing that any ordinary people should not be asked to take seriously. If the Government takes the power, we must assume that there is a likelihood of its being exercised. It is exceedingly difficult to assume or to believe that they do not intend to make use of this power. How soon they will do it is an entirely different matter. But that they intend to use it is the only construction we can put on the action of the Government in introducing this section into the Bill. It is not in the Long Title. The section is brought in here, and that is the real purpose of the Bill to a large extent. Certainly, it is quite as important, so far as the intentions of the Government go, as paragraph (2). We must take it for granted that the Government intends to fill this position—that they intend to appoint a Minister without portfolio. I gather now from the Minister quite definitely that it is intended that that man shall have no administrative functions. The Minister shakes his head. Does it mean that he agrees he will have no executive functions or that he disagrees?

I disagree with the Deputy's statement ascribing an intention to the Government which at the moment it has not got.

The Minister stated quite definitely as far as I remember, that this man would not have entrusted to him executive functions or the charge of a Department or any part of a Department.

The Minister expressed a personal opinion—I think not.

I understood the Minister was in charge of the Bill. All my remarks are based on that. I know that in exceptional circumstances he can be entrusted with the charge of a Department.

Therein there is a slight correction. Normally that will not be the case. But he may be entrusted with the charge of a Department when another Minister is ill, for instance. Whether there are other cases of that kind or not, for the moment I cannot remember. But his normal business will not involve administrative duties. The Minister says that a situation may arise where it is advisable to have a Minister without portfolio. But, even in that case, he will not tell us what he conceives the functions of the Minister to be or his usefulness, except a few vague words about co-ordinating. Co-ordinating what? We spoke the last day against this particular provision, and I must say that everything the Minister has stated, and, quite as much, what he has refused to say, confirms us in the necessity of opposing a proposition of this kind.

Furthermore, if this Minister is in charge of a Department and he is guilty while in charge of the Department, of some offence, some tort, or whatever he may be sued for with the consent of the Attorney-General, who will be sued? Will it be he or the nominal holder of the office who, at the moment, had transferred his duties and responsibilities to the Minister without portfolio? Is he entering then and there not merely into the functions, or does he form a portion of the corporation sole? That is a relatively small point. As I say, the Minister's conduct to-day confirms us in the necessity for opposing this section.

I can understand the Minister telling the House that he has a personal opinion, implying that it may mean nothing. I can understand that situation, because the Minister is not the only Minister in that position. But it is a bit too much to ask the House to continue to carry on its business on that principle. The Minister upbraided Deputy O'Sullivan with rather rushing things by asking him to explain something in this, as if there was a Minister without portfolio going to be appointed soon, or there was any prospect of it. I think that we are entitled to do what we are doing, that is upbraiding the Minister with putting this measure before the House, asking for power to appoint a Minister without portfolio when he insists on telling the House that there is no intention of doing it.

He did not say that.

He thought that Deputy O'Sullivan was absurd.

I did not use that word at all.

He implied that he was wasting his time and the time of the House.

I do not think that I have ever applied the adjective "absurd" to anything Deputy Professor O'Sullivan said yet.

My range of expression is not as wide as the Minister's. As a matter of fact, after listening to the Minister, I felt that we would have to approach the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and get around the Ceann Comhairle to enab'e us to extend the natural range of our language in dealing with these subjects in the House, if the Minister complains of the Deputy being silly and wasting time here by asking for an explanation as to why this measure is brought in when, from the Minister's point of view, there is no immediate prospect of such a Minister being appointed. I think the proceedings of the House are being reduced to an absurdity.

The only possible reason for this section is that it is intended to cover the present Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures. Can the Minister tell us if that is so? Secondly, it may be intended for a purpose somewhat analogous to putting an officer of the Army on half pay; that is giving him nothing to do for a while and still continuing to pay him. But, in this particular case, he is given nothing to do while being given full pay. Or it may be for the purpose of appointing a Minister with a free leg to roam about the place because we are running into the year of a general election or something like that. You might perhaps want a kind of general inspector going around to see where the leaks were between the Minister for Supplies and the Minister for Industry and Commence. You might want to have somebody to find out the leaks between A.R.P. and all the other various kinds of activities that are alleged to be defensive measures at present. But there are a limited number of things for which a Minister without portfolio can be appointed. The Minister ought to mention some of them. He ought to rule out some of these, at any rate, and bring us down to the thimble under which the pea is likely to be when asking the House seriously to pass a measure like this.

I think the Minister should give the House a concrete example of what the duties of the Minister will be. I think the House is entitled to that. He has told us that he visualises a Minister for co-ordinating purposes. Is it because the Minister for Co-ordination we have at present, who is co-ordinating the Army, the Navy, and A.R.P., is not such a wonderful success that the Government are now gone mad on co-ordination, or what does it mean? I think we are entitled to get more definite information about it, and the Minister should give us a definite example.

Question put—"That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."
The Committee divided: Tá, 55; Níl, 35.

  • Aiken, Frank.
  • Bartley, Gerald.
  • Boland, Gerald.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Breathnach, Cormac.
  • Breen, Daniel.
  • Breslin, Cormac.
  • Buckley, Seán.
  • Cleary, Mícheál.
  • Cooney, Eamonn.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Derrig, Thomas.
  • De Valera, Eamon.
  • Flynn, John.
  • Little, Patrick J.
  • McCann, John.
  • McDevitt, Henry A.
  • McEllistrim, Thomas.
  • MacEntee, Seán.
  • Maguire, Ben.
  • Moore, Séamus.
  • Moran, Michael.
  • Morrissey, Michael.
  • Moylan, Seán.
  • Mullen, Thomas.
  • Munnelly, John.
  • O Briain, Donnchadh.
  • O'Grady, Seán.
  • Flynn, Stephen.
  • Fogarty, Andrew.
  • Fogarty, Patrick J.
  • Friel, John.
  • Fuller, Stephen.
  • Gorry, Patrick J.
  • Harris, Thomas.
  • Hogan, Daniel.
  • Humphreys, Francis.
  • Kelly, James P.
  • Kennedy, Michael J.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Kissane, Eamon.
  • Lemass, Seán F.
  • O'Loghlen, Peter.
  • O'Reilly, Matthew.
  • O'Rourke, Daniel.
  • Ruttledge, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, James.
  • Ryan, Martin.
  • Ryan, Robert.
  • Sheridan, Michael.
  • Smith, Patrick.
  • Traynor, Oscar.
  • Victory, James.
  • Walsh, Richard.
  • Ward, Conn.

Níl

  • Bennett, George C.
  • Brennan, Michael.
  • Broderick, William J.
  • Brodrick, Seán.
  • Burke, Patrick.
  • Byrne, Alfred (Junior).
  • Coburn, James.
  • Corish, Richard.
  • Cosgrave, William T.
  • Dillon, James M.
  • Dockrell, Henry M.
  • Doyle, Peadar S.
  • Esmonde, John L.
  • Everett, James.
  • Fagan, Charles.
  • Giles, Patrick.
  • Gorey, Denis J.
  • Hickey, James.
  • Hughes, James.
  • Hurley, Jeremiah.
  • Keating, John.
  • Keyes, Michael.
  • Lynch, Finian.
  • McFadden, Michael Og.
  • McGovern, Patrick.
  • McMenamin, Daniel.
  • Morrissey, Daniel.
  • Mulcahy, Richard.
  • Nally, Martin.
  • O'Higgins, Thomas F.
  • O'Sullivan, John.
  • Reidy, James.
  • Reynolds, Mary.
  • Rogers, Patrick J.
  • Ryan, Jeremiah.
Tellers:—Tá: Deputies Smith and Brady; Níl: Deputies Doyle and Bennett.
Question declared carried.
SECTION 5.
(1) The Taoiseach may, at any time, terminate the assignment of a particular Department of State to the member of the Government then having charge thereof, and assign such Department to another member of the Government.

On behalf of Deputy O'Sullivan, I move amendment No. 2:—

In sub-section (1), line 27, after the word "may" to insert the words: "subject to the approval of Dáil Eireann".

The section proposes to give power to the Taoiseach to terminate the assignment of a particular Department of State to the member of the Government then having charge of it, and to assign such Department to another member of the Government. We ask, in the amendment, that such a transfer shall be subject to the approval of Dáil Eireann.

I would suggest, Sir, that this amendment is not necessary, because, under the Constitution, the Taoiseach has the power already to advise the President to terminate the appointment of a Minister. It seems merely to be a logical consequence from that to give the Taoiseach the right to terminate the assignment of a Minister to any particular portfolio. Apart altogether from that aspect of the matter, however, I think the amendment is unnecessary, because it would be open to the House to raise an issue of this kind at any time upon a motion, and, if the House did not approve of the action of the Taoiseach under the section, the usual constitutional consequences, naturally, would follow, and the same purpose would be obtained as is sought to be obtained by the amendment which is now put down.

The Minister, apparently, did not examine this amendment very closely. As the section stands, it gives the Taoiseach power to terminate the assignment of a particular Department of State to a Minister having charge of it, and to assign that Department to another Minister. Presumably, it is not intended that that is to be an inconsiderate or unconsidered act. There must be some reason for it. Presumably, it is not going to be done every day in the week. It is, apparently, one of those things that may happen, perhaps, once in a session—even if it should happen so often. If it were to be nothing else but a matter of politeness, I think that the approval of the Dáil should be obtained in such a matter. It is not likely that such approval will be withheld without a sufficiently good reason, but it is more than likely that, by reason of the changes that have taken place recently, the public mind has been disturbed as to the reason for the changes which took place recently. It is equally likely that, if these matters had been put before the House, and if the reasons for those changes had been submitted to the House, the public mind would not be so disturbed. It is for that purpose, and rather with a view to harnessing public opinion and public support behind the Ministry, that this particular amendment has been put down. It has not been put down from the point of view that the Minister, apparently, has in mind—that is, that it is provocative. It is not provocative. The reason for putting down the amendment is to bring about a closer association between the Ministry and the Dáil and, in consequence, the people. If there is a strong reason why that should not be brought about, then we should like to hear it from the Minister. Nobody wants to put anything in the nature of unreasonable or onerous duties on the Taoiseach, or the Prime Minister—or whatever he is—either now or in the future, but we do expect that if these particular changes take place, the House should be taken into his confidence, and that that confidence should be extended, through the House, to the people.

I examined this amendment very carefully with a view to finding out what reasonable objection there could be to it, but I cannot find any ground for objection. For the best part of 15 years that has been the procedure here. Occasionally, it may have brought about a discussion in the House, and a very marked controversial discussion at times, due, perhaps, to the circumstances of the period in which we lived. However, I do not look forward to that being the case in the future at all. I think the House would be willing and anxious to know the reason why a change of this sort is taking place. Possibly, there would be no discussion at all on the matter.

In this country, the public mind has been agitated very much during the last ten or 15 years—and by the Party opposite more than by any other Party in this country—but I think there will be a considerable change in that public mentality in the future, and it is to restore and to ensure public confidence that this amendment is put down. I think the Minister should agree with this amendment rather than with what is in the section as it stands. I know what is in the Constitution; I do not approve of it and I did not approve of it when it came in. I say, however, that the collective responsibility of the Executive is scarcely maintainable under those circumstances. It would seem to be what one might call the collective responsibility of one individual. Apart from that, I do not see that there is any reason why this amendment should not be accepted and why the former practice should not be adhered to, because, unquestionably, the adherence to that practice would inspire more confidence in the public.

Again, Sir, I submit that it would be an unwise thing to encumber the Statute Book with provisions which are not essential for the purposes sought. As I have pointed out, it is always possible for the House to have a discussion upon a rearrangement or reconstruction of the Government, and accordingly, if this be the only reason for this amendment—that is, to enable such a discussion to take place, possibly with a view to easing the public mind—it can be done, as I have said, without putting a statutory compulsion upon the Taoiseach to seek the approval of the House for such a rearrangement of offices. But there is another objection to the proposed amendment, and it is one which has been raised rather forcibly by Deputy Cosgrave. We all know the old conflict between the doctrine of collective responsibility and the principle of individual responsibility. The amendment, I think, would associate individual members of the Government too closely with the tenure of particular portfolios, which would inevitably, I think, involve this, that the holder of a portfolio would feel that his collective responsibility was somewhat less onerous and vital than if he had not been appointed to that particular office with the prior approval of the House. If he is appointed as a member of the Government, rather than as a holder of a particular portfolio, than his individual personality to that extent merges more readily and more easily with that of the Government as a whole. I think that, under those circumstances, the doctrine of collective responsibility becomes more actively applied; at any rate, it has a more real application. A re-arrangement such as is contemplated by this section could only be made by mutual agreement within the Government, and every party to that agreement would be individually as well as collectively responsible for it. It could not be made against the wish of any individual.

It is a very dangerous theory.

If any member did not acquiesce in it, then he would have to relinquish his office and resign, and a new Government would have to be formed.

It is also a fairy tale.

The point to which I am addressing myself is this: Deputy Cosgrave has suggested that Section 5 of the proposed Bill is in some way inconsistent with the doctrine of collective responsibility. I am endeavouring to show that such a re-arrangement as is contemplated by that section could only be made with the acquiescence of all members of the Government, and that they all would be collectively responsible for that arrangement. My view is that the section, so far from detracting from this principle of collective responsibility, rather strengthens it. In those circumstances I cannot see any justification for the amendment which has been proposed.

I just want to put one question to the Minister, and I shall not press for an answer. I am very well aware of the important duties which have recently been thrust upon him, and realise that they occupy a great deal of his time. The question is: Did he have any time to consider this Bill which he is now piloting through the House?

Amendment put and declared lost.
Section 5 put and declared carried.
SECTION 6.

I move amendment No. 3:—

At the end of the section to add a new sub-section as follows:—

(4) The powers conferred in paragraphs (c), (d) and (e) of sub-section (1) of this section shall not be exercised without the prior approval of Dáil Eireann unless such powers can be so exercised without imposing an additional charge on the public revenue.

What we want to ensure is that those things do not involve the State in additional expense. To us it seems that they will. We want some proviso that they will not involve additional expense. The splitting up of Departments into sub-Departments means new heads of Departments, new responsibilities, and therefore an increase in salary. At the present moment we consider it undesirable to sponsor anything of the kind.

I would suggest to the Deputy that this amendment is not really necessary in order to get what the Opposition are looking for in the matter. Section 6 is, in effect, only a rather more precise statement of the existing provisions of Section 12 of the Act of 1924, and everything under Section 6 is to be done by order. The House, perhaps, is aware of the fact that those orders have to be laid before it for confirmation, and must be confirmed, I think, within 21 sitting days of presentation. Upon those orders an opportunity to raise the issues which the Deputy seeks to raise by means of this amendment would naturally arise.

I understand, therefore, that the intention of the section is that the orders will be laid before the House, and that if they are negatived within a certain period then they cease to operate?

There is no such provision. So far as this particular thing is concerned, there is no such provision. That is precisely what we noticed—that there was no such provision.

The original Act makes that clear.

In what section?

In what section of the original Act?

Section 13.

This is a new enumeration. There is no indication that this particular thing need be laid on the Table of the House. The Minister will have an opportunity of putting in that in the Seanad. We are told our proviso is not necessary, on the grounds that they must be laid before both Houses. We see no reason why the proviso should not be put in. I would require a great deal of convincing that the more general statement in the Principal Act will cover the more particular statement made here.

I should like to call the Minister's attention to this fact: when, under Section 3, we discussed the publication of orders, the Minister was not clear as to how those orders could be published, but if what the Minister says now is correct—that is that Section 13 of the 1924 Act applies to orders issued under Section 6 —then I take it that it applies equally to orders issued under Section 3?

No; I was dealing with the changes which were made otherwise than by order.

We were expressly dealing with the question of orders. Do I understand then from the Minister that, as well as orders issued under Section 6, it is also the intention that orders issued under Section 3 will come under Section 13 of the 1924 Act, which says that every order made by the Executive under that Act shall be laid before each House of the Oireachtas forthwith?

Yes; every Government order made under Section 3 or under Section 6 will be laid before the House.

That is the legal interpretation?

Some people may be anxious to discuss certain aspects on the Schedule.

I do not propose to deal with them.

That means that you will treat the Schedule in the way you treated most of the sections of the Bill.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 6 agreed to.
SECTION 7.
(3) A member of the Government who is nominated under this section to execute the office of a Minister having charge of a Department of State shall, while he is exercising that office in pursuance of such nomination, be for all purposes the Minister having charge of the said Department but may, if and whenever it appears to him to be convenient so to do, add the word "gníomhathach" or, in English, prefix the word "acting" to his title as such Minister.

I move amendment No. 4:—

In sub-section (3), to delete all words after the word "department" in line 45 down to the end of the sub-section.

What is the point? This is really a legal point that was put up to me, namely, that again you are bringing in difficulties as regards prosecution. Why cannot the present practice do? Why make it statutory that you must have this change in nomenclature so that a man may make a mistake if he is bringing an action? What is the necessity of it?

I do not quite agree. We feel that it more definitely distinguishes between a person who is an acting Minister and a Minister who may be in charge of more than one Department. I think that is the real reason. There is no constitutional repugnance, so far as I can see. We are advised that there is not.

I am advised that there may be legal difficulties. However, the legal difficulties will not be mine.

There is one thing this does, too. It does make less questionable the personal responsibility of the Minister to the Dáil for anything one may do in his capacity as an agent or an acting Minister in a Department. It does not, of course, alter the legal responsibility to the citizens of the principal Minister, but it makes the individual who happens to be acting Minister more clearly responsible to the Dáil for anything he may do during his tenure of office in that capacity.

The thing that occurs to me is, that when some Minister for Justice, who is acting, is arresting a batch of internees, he will sign his warrant "gníomhathach", just to show he is not the man fully responsible, but if he is letting them out, he will sign as a fully fledged Minister and he need not bother about the word "gníomhathach".

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Section 7 agreed to.
Question proposed: "That Section 8 stand part."

On Section 8 I raised a certain point on the Second Reading, and I do not know whether the Minister thinks there is any substance in it. It is in relation to a Parliamentary Secretary having the right of audience in either Chamber. There is some doubt whether it is permissible for this House to give that right, having regard to the terms of the Constitution. On the Second Reading I referred the Minister to Article 28, Paragraph 8, and that is the only reference in the Constitution to the right of audience. That right of audience is specifically given to members of the Government, as such. That being so, I think it is exclusive of everyone else other than members of the Government. I should like to know whether the Government would not consider it necessary to introduce some legislation amending the Constitution in that respect.

I do not think I have looked fully into the point the Deputy raised, but I am advised there is not any substance in it, on this basis. First of all, the Constitution empowers the House, by standing order, to grant the right of audience to whomsoever they may think fit. It follows that what the Houses of the Legislature can do by standing order can also be done by legislation. Naturally, in a matter of this sort, where the proposed statute has not merely to pass this House, but has also to pass the Seanad, it is clear that this is a way of making a permanent standing order, binding on the two Houses. If the Seanad wanted at any time to challenge it, they could have a Bill promoted to amend it or raise the issue in some other way. It is a matter that would be mutually convenient to both Houses, and it is not likely to be raised and, too, it puts it on a more permanent basis.

I am glad the Minister thinks he has the necessary power.

Question put and agreed to.
Amendment No. 5 not moved.
Question—"That Section 9 stand part of the Bill"—put and agree to.
Sections 10 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
SCHEDULE.

On reference No. 1, the term "An tAire Airgid," as the expression for the Minister for Finance, has stood the test since 1924. I should like to ask the Minister what is the idea, 15 years afterwards, of proceeding to change the word "Airgid" into "Airgeadais"?

The general principle underlying the Schedule is to revise the forms of names of Ministers in order to bring them more closely into accord with the form in which these offices have been referred to in the Constitution. That happens to apply particularly to the Irish title for the Minister for Finance. I gather there is certain conflict between Article 28 of the Constitution and the title as prescribed in the Act of 1924. I gather that is the sole reason for this change.

Possibly there is this point, that it may be considered that the expression "An tAire Airgid" is not a proper title to apply to a Minister who has not balanced his Budget for a certain number of years, or that, instead of getting "The Minister for Money," we are getting a title that is expressive of "The Minister with ideas about money." I think that this is quite an unnecessary and an objectionable change. The only thing that it does is to bring the description more in touch with the sort of way in which public money is minded at the present time. As the Minister has not replied I would like to say a word on reference Nos. 2 and 3 of the Schedule. I may have to say something on reference 3 afterwards. There is a reference here to An tAire Dlí agus Cirt. In the proposed new form it is to be spelled An tAire Dlighidh agus Cirt. If we go down lower in reference 3 "Rialtais" becomes "Riaghaltais" and then we come in reference 4 down to "Talmhaiochta" which now becomes "Talmhaideachta". The word "Talmhaiochta" gets a few letters stuck into the middle of it in the new form.

I remember An tAthair Peadar O Laoghaire speaking in the Mansion House in Dublin a few years ago, where he described his experiences when he first sat down to begin his work as Irish writer. He spoke of the old works which he wished to translate into a modern rendering. He described the Irish language at that time as being like David when he put on Saul's armour, and I remember how the old man strutted around the platform, showing how David was doubled up with Saul's armour. That, said An tAthair Peadar, was a picture of the way in which the Irish language, as far as the writing of it for general modern purposes, stood when he began his writing of Irish. Referring to the spelling of words, he said: "Do thosnuigheas ar an gceann agus ar an earbal do bhaint díbh agus ar an mbolg do ghearradh asta." The work of people who write either for publications or in any volume demonstrates that in doing so he made a valuable contribution to the general writing of modern Irish. The changes made here have very little meaning. After 24 years writing of An tAire Dlí agus Cirt we now must call him An tAire Dlighidh agus Cirt. That is going against all the canons of reasonable spelling. And we are doing this at a time when there is so much talk of economy. It seems an extraordinary thing. If this is intended as being an ornate or rather archaic description of the office here, and if we intend to look at these descriptions in a few years' time as hoary with tradition by reason of the extra letters and "h's" hanging out of them there may be something in that, if that is the explanation of it. But if it is an attempt to bring things up to date, even to the up-to-date modernity of the new Constitution, then we are doing a most absurd thing. If, by meaning thus to be up to date we mean to extend this particular class of thing to general written use, we are imposing a few additional objections and putting additional arguments into the hands of ignorant people on the one hand and a few more additional difficulties into the hands of the people who are struggling to make Irish an effective language by using it in writing in business and in administration. I rise to say that I consider that that is an attitude that should not be taken with regard to these things. These spellings, as they are, have stood the test for the past 15 or 16 years and they might very well be left to stand in the absence of a very definite and serious explanation for the change on the part of the Minister.

Archaic names for archaic people. I suppose that would be as good an explanation as any.

Or simplified names for simple people.

Are we not going to be given any explanation by the Minister for these changes?

If the Government has nothing but silence on a matter like this which they are seeking to enshrine in this Bill, I will pass on to the next reference.

If I had spoken perhaps the Deputy would not have gone on to the next reference. I want to assure the Deputy that my failure to respond was not due to any desire to be discourteous to him or to the House. I am not competent to talk at all on this matter. But if I spoke I would be sorry that I had prevented the Deputy going on to the next reference.

I assure the Minister, if he has anything to say on behalf of whoever has presented this Bill to the Dáil he can reply to the point I made, and I can assure him I will then pass on to the third point I wish to make on the Schedule. In these circumstances I have nothing to do but to pass on to reference No. 3. Reference No. 3 proposes two changes, that An tAire Rialtais Aitiúla agus Sláinte Puiblí should be changed to An tAire Riaghalatis Aiteamhail agus Sláinte Poibhlidhe. There is a change here. In the genitive in Irish the adjective is made to change with the noun. Here the word for the noun is being left in the genitive case and the adjective is not. I would like to ask if there is a theory behind this or any old tradition which it is intended to print on the Ministerial escutcheon as a kind of guarantee of long tradition, or whether it is intended to be a new modern practice. If children and scholars in the future take an interest in it, there is going to be a very considerable loss of marks when they come to answer some kinds of question which they will find on their examination papers. I may tell the Minister that he will not take up a single examination paper of any standard on which there will not be a few questions intended to elicit whether the students know really what should happen adjectives in the genitive case or as to whether they can apply the practice to various combinations of nouns and adjectives. If this is for the future and not merely to put a few ancient cobwebs around the Ministerial descriptions then we ought to have some explanation of the policy as to whether it is intended to apply in a regular way to the use of the language generally.

Is the Schedule agreed to?

As the Minister has not replied, there is another point with which I want to deal. It is suggested that there is attached a greater suitability to the word "Airgeadais" in the title of the Minister for Finance than there is to the word "Airgid", but why is the Minister for External Affairs now stated to be dealing with "Gnothaí Eachtracha" instead of "Gnóthaí Coigríche"?

I should like to draw the Minister's attention to the same thing. I understand that "coigrich" is the usual word for "foreign" in the Aran Islands, and it does not seem to me that the reasons given are sufficient to justify the change. It seems to me, too, that there is a slight grammatical error in the title of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. The word "Riaghaltais", in the genitive, is followed by an adjective in the nominative—"Aiteamhail" instead of "Aitiúla".

God forbid that I should enter into a discussion in which grammarians differ. Men have been hanged, drawn and quartered for less than that. All I know about the Schedule now submitted for the approval of the Dáil is that a committee of the most eminent Irish scholars was called together by the Taoiseach. These titles embody either the recommendations made by the committee or, where the committee failed to make a precise recommendation, follow very closely the principles laid down. In these circumstances, I have nothing to do but ask the House to accept the Schedule.

Can the Minister even go so far as to say that this is a gesture to the past? Is it intended to unmake our Ministerial descriptions by introducing signs of age, antiquity and tradition, or is it a pointer to the future?

As to the principles on which this learned committee proceeded, I can give no guidance to the House. I accept their judgment in the matter. As I said, they were the most eminent Irish scholars procurable— men whose authority to speak on these matters would not be challenged by anybody here. As they recommended these titles as the most suitable and, I assume, the most proper, I do not think I should dare endeavour to justify their decision. I think that these titles must stand, for me at any rate.

I should like to say to the Minister that something requires to be done if any attention is to be paid by students attending primary or secondary schools to what is enacted here. They are liable to get their ears boxed or their hands "leathered" if they adopt some of the changes in connection with this Bill without suitable notification being sent for the information of teachers as to the implications of these changes.

Would the Minister give the names of the committee?

I do not think it is desirable.

They are very eminent people?

And you do not know who they are?

I heard of some of them.

The Minister wants to save them from the punishment that may fall on the children.

Personally, I should like to say what I think about it.

Schedule put and declared carried.
Title put and agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Agreed to take the remaining stages now.
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