Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Feb 1941

Vol. 81 No. 12

Committee on Finance. - Vote 7—Old Age Pensions.

Minister for Finance (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim Bhreise ná raghaidh thar £28,750 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1941, chun Pinsean Sean-Aoise (8 Edw. 7, c. 40; 1 & 2 Geo. 5, c. 16; 9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 102; Uimh. 19 de 1924; Uimh. 1 de 1928; Uimh. 18 de 1932; agus Uimh. 26 de 1938); chun Pinsean do Dhaill (Uimh. 18 de 1932, agus Uimh. 26 de 1938); agus chun Costaisí Riaracháin áirithe ina dtaobh san.

That a Supplmentary sum not exceeding £28,750 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1941, for Old Age Pensions (8 Edw. 7, c. 40; 1 & 2 Geo. 5, c. 16; 9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 102; No. 19 of 1924; No. 1 of 1928; No. 18 of 1932; and No. 26 of 1938); for Pensions to Blind Persons (No. 18 of 1932, and No. 26 of 1938); and for certain Administrative Expenses in connection therewith.

The purpose of this Supplementary Estimate is to provide for anticipated increased expenditure on sub-head (A), i.e., on the actual cost of pensions. The original Estimate was based on an average number of pensioners over the year of 140,000, but it now appears certain that the average will be higher. The actual numbers at the end of March, 1940; June, 1940; September, 1940, and December, 1940, were, respectively, 138,805, 139,660, 140,604, and 141,430.

It has been estimated in a recent computation that the population over 70 would at the middle of each of the years mentioned below amount to the following:—

1939	185,300
1940	187,000
1941	192,900

It will be observed from these figures that the upward trend in the population over 70 will be sharply accelerated in the immediate future. Taking 75 per cent.—which is the normal proportion—of such population as representing the number of old age pensioners, the number of pensioners in the middle of 1941 would be about 144,700, or some 3,000 more than the number at the end of December, 1940. Payments by the Post Office averaged £68,334 per week in the nine weeks ended 28th November, 1940. In the light of the marked increase in septuagenarians referred to above, it is considered that provision should be made for an average weekly expenditure of £69,000 for the remainder of the year. In addition, a sum of £10,000 is being provided to cover contingencies. On this basis, the Estimate has been revised to £3,560,000, i.e., £30,000 increase on the original Estimate.

It is anticipated that receipts under Subhead C—recoveries of overpayments—will realise £1,250 more than was estimated. The surplus will be offset against the additional sum required for Subhead A, so that the net supplementary amount required for the Vote is £28,750.

Mr. Dillon

The population problem forecast by the trend upwards in the proportion of septuagenarians in our population is a wider one that I propose to touch upon now. Personally, the expenditure on old age pensions is expenditure which never alarms me, because I cannot foresee the creation of any serious abuse being possible. Armies of pensioners, vigorous young men clamouring for pensions and getting them, or "dolees" getting pensions for doing nothing, are in my opinion a menace to the State, but people over 70 years of age getting the modest pension which is provided by law cannot, in my opinion, ever constitute a menace to the State, and I think it is rather a desirable thing the wider the pensions spread. But I want to make this point. I do not believe anybody in this House grudges pensions to the septuagenarians who stand in need of them, and there might be a good deal to be said for removing the means test at present incorporated in the old age pensions code, but so long as that means test is in the old age pensions code, then the law ought to be obeyed. I have every reason to believe that in many parts of the country the law is not approximately obeyed. People with substantial incomes are receiving pensions of 10/- a week and next door to them are living people with microscopic incomes whose pensions have 1/-, 2/- or 3/- a week deducted from them.

Does the Minister for Finance ever require his staff to take some division of the country and review all the existing pensions in that division with the object of ascertaining whether they are all being properly paid or not? I believe if he did that in certain areas he would be astonished to discover the number of persons receiving pensions who have no claim under the law to receive them. I know people who have 20 cattle and horses and traps and comfortable houses and farms receiving 10/- a week and there is a fight in which 40 could join if I were to try to get individuals living next to them on small humble farms a pension of 8/- or 9/-.

I do not complain if the officials of the Department assess a small farmer's income fairly in accordance with the terms of the statute. They have got to do that, and they have no right to go outside the statute. But it does appear to me a gross injustice that, having done that so scrupulously in regard to the small farmer, his large neighbour, who happens to have some political pull, gets 10/- and there is no comment made about it. It is not easy to run these cases down, but I am convinced that if once or twice a year the Minister would take an area in a different part of Ireland and make a strict review in that limited area of every pension payable there and required a strict report on every pensioner in the area to be rendered to the Revenue Commissioners, he would discover as much as five per cent. of the pensions at present being paid— and possibly substantially more—are being improperly paid.

The sum of money involved might not be substantial, but the sense of grievance that would be removed by creating the impression that equal justice was being done between all, whether they had political pull or whether they had not, would be very well worth the time spent in making the survey I suggest.

Mr. Corish

I should like to refer to the delay that occurs in the granting of blind pensions. The delay in many cases is inexcusable. Persons are kept, in some instances, for almost 12 months before consideration is given to their applications. Certificates are submitted to the pensions officer and by him to the local pensions committee indicating that there is definite evidence of blindness and in some cases these certificates are signed by qualified oculists, but, notwithstanding that, the pensions officer always decides against a pension being granted. The claim comes before the local pensions committee and it is quite apparent to the members, apart from the evidence submitted by the oculist or a doctor, that the person is blind.

If there is disagreement between the committee and the pensions officer the case has to come before the Minister's Department and eventually a medical inspector is sent down to examine the applicant. All that takes at least nine or 12 months and I think the Minister will admit that that is an inexcusable delay. I hope he will do something to speed up the consideration of applications. In districts where there is a qualified oculist, the Minister ought to accept his certificate rather than waste time and expense by sending down a man from Dublin. Deputy Dillon referred to the means test. That matter has been touched upon repeatedly both here and elsewhere.

An Ceann Comhairle

As Deputy Dillon did refer to the matter, the Chair will not debar Deputy Corish from doing so. I would point out, however, that the general administration of the Act may not be raised on a Supplementary Estimate.

Mr. Corish

I have not very much to say on the matter. So far as the means test is concerned, I think it is applied very unfairly to applicants for blind pensions. I have in mind the cases of some people who made application for blind pensions. They had not reached the age of 70 and were not even near it. They had to cease work because they lost their sight in the course of their employment. They were entitled to receive an allowance from their trade union, an allowance to which they contributed over many years, and because of that they were not permitted to draw a blind pension. I think the Minister should have such cases examined. Whatever excuse there is— and I suggest that there is no excuse —for applying the means test to a person who has reached 70 years, a person who has had to cease employment in consequence of the fact that his sight became defective when in employment, and who becomes entitled to an allowance to which he has contributed during his working years, should be granted a blind pension irrespective of the allowance. I hope the Minister will examine these matters carefully and, in particular, he should endeavour to speed up the consideration of blind pension applications.

Mr. Beegan

Deputy Dillon referred to the manner in which old age pensions have been granted. He believes there is a certain percentage of cases in which no pensions should be granted. My experience is that there is an interrogation which is next to an inquisition and it takes a fairly good heart to stand up to that. If there is one class in the community towards which there should be a little leniency, it is those people who have attained the age of 70 years and over. I do not think there is any such thing as the award of a pension to a person who is not within the law entitled to it. I am quite certain of that and when the Deputy indicates the case of the 20-cow farmer, I am sure if he took up a specific case of that kind with the Department of Finance it would be examined carefully and the Department would not be very slow in acting.

We may have seen certain cases of that type happening in various parts of the country from time to time, but why should the Deputy make a statement in general terms? I believe there is hardly one case in 5,000 where that happens and, consequently, I must protest against that insinuation. I believe the persons responsible for deciding on old age pensions are not influenced in any way politically; political influence does not weigh with them. If you write on behalf of an old age pensioner, you will get your reply in due course and there is no question whatsoever of political influence weighing with those responsible.

Mr. Hickey

As a member of an old age pensions committee I think it is most unfair that the man or woman who is in receipt of home assistance prior to the time when he or she becomes 70 should be obliged to include the amount of home assistance in their means. I consider that most unfair, because they merely get the home assistance to keep them going until such time as they are granted a pension. Like other Deputies, I think that some of the old age pensions officers are too strict and they do not act in accordance with the spirit of the legislation when they are inquiring into the means of old people. In my opinion, when people reach 70 years of age, instead of giving them only 10/- a week they should receive double that amount.

Mr. Brennan

I should like to agree with Deputy Beegan, but I cannot agree with him. I think that any Deputy who is honest with himself will know perfectly well that that sense of grievance to which Deputy Dillon referred does exist down the country. Nobody is finding any fault with pension officers or can say that they have done anything "soft". I do not think they have ever done anything "soft" but I know instances in my own locality where some people entitled to the old age pension are getting a small amount, while other people are getting the whole pension. Yet, a comparison of the circumstances would show that it should be the other way round.

Mr. Beegan

Have you ever gone into the figures?

Mr. Brennan

I know the circumstances thoroughly, and I do not understand on what basis the amount of the pension has been fixed in many of these cases. I am sure Deputy Beegan also has had experience of people coming to him and saying: "So-and-so is getting 10/- a week, while I am only getting 5/-." Deputy Dillon merely suggested that the Minister ought to have a periodic review of the circumstances, and I do not think anybody could object to that. There is nothing unfair in it. I am making no allegation against anybody, but these things have happened. They are probably accidental, but there is a terrible sense of grievance felt by the man who is getting only a few shillings when he knows that a person in the same, or better, circumstances is getting 10/-.

Deputy Corish referred to delays in dealing with blind pensions. I am sorry the Minister concerned is not here, because I also have had experience of delays with regard to cases that had been referred to inspectors for investigation. I am sorry to say that the most appalling delays have come under my notice. As far as the old age pensions section of the Local Government Department is concerned, I had always the greatest admiration for it. I thought that the officers were doing their work very thoroughly and that they deserved the thanks of the community. Latterly I have not that to say. One case in particular, that of an old woman whose claim had been referred for investigation to an officer over 12 months ago, came under my notice. It may be said the delay does not matter very much, because she will get her back pension when the claim is admitted. The tragic thing is that she will not, because she has since passed away. She is dead. It is not fair that investigation of claims should be delayed in that way. There is probably a reason for it; probably there has been some curtailment of the staff who deal with this work, but some steps should be taken so as to expedite the investigation of these claims. Cases of that kind have been happening up and down the country. As a matter of fact I made representations with regard to some old people months and months ago, and I thought that their cases would be considered. It was only after one of them died that I discovered that no officer ever went there.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I cannot answer for the Department of Local Government, which is responsible for the administration of blind pensions.

Mr. Corish

You know more about it than anybody else.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There was a time when I had responsibility for that Department, and I know that during portion of the time when I was Minister for Local Government unfortunately there was considerable delay in dealing with claims. There was a period when we had some difficulty in getting on the staff a medical man with the necessary qualifications. There was some delay in selecting him, for one reason or another. During that time, we tried to have the work of examining applicants for blind pensions carried out by other medical members of the staff, but they had already a good deal of work to do in their own sphere. There was certainly some delay then in dealing with the claims. I do not know, however, whether the delays were as great as 12 months. That would certainly seem to me an inordinately long time. I shall call the attention of the Minister for Local Government to the complaints that have been made in that respect.

Mr. Corish

If there was a properly qualified oculist in a district, could the Minister not instruct his officers to accept the recommendations of a man like that? That would save time and money in sending down a medical man from the Department.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Doctors differ. Men who are fully qualified and hold specialist qualifications with regard to this subject differ with regard to the amount of blindness from which an applicant suffers. One doctor may hold that a person is entitled to a blind pension, while another may hold that the person does not suffer from the degree of blindness that would entitle him to a pension.

Mr. Corish

Under the present arrangement, there is only one man on the staff to deal with those cases.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There is only one man on the staff, but he has the final word. However, I shall direct the attention of the Minister for Local Government to the complaints that have been made. With regard to the remarks of Deputy Dillon and Deputy Brennan, I was sorry that anybody in this House should suggest that the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act was tinged in the remotest way by political bias.

Mr. Brennan

I did not say that.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Deputy Brennan did not, but Deputy Dillon did, although he did not say so definitely, rather infer that there was political bias in the administration of the Act by the Department of Finance or the Department of Local Government. I think that was a very unfortunate remark for Deputy Dillon to make. I do not think that Deputies believe that officials on any side in any Department are influenced by political considerations in regard to the administration of the Old Age Pensions Act. That was a most unfortunate remark, and not one that should be made, because it constitutes a gross reflection on the officials.

Mr. Corish

I have never seen an instance of it.

Mr. Hickey

Nor have I.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I do not think anybody in his senses would seriously make an accusation of that kind. I have heard complaints similar to those mentioned by Deputy Brennan. I have got them in writing, from Ministers, from Deputies, and from private persons. I have received signed letters and any amount of anonymous letters. When I was in charge of the Department of Local Government there was certainly not a month—I was going to say there was not a week—when I did not get some complaint or other of the type to which Deputy Brennan refers. There were letters to the Minister from the son or daughter of a person who was getting five or six shillings referring to somebody else in that parish, or in an adjoining parish, who was getting 10/-. Every single case I had examined— sometimes twice and three times because of doubts there were and of the persistent complaints. Officers were sent down to interview these people on the spot, to interview the complainant, the recipient of the 5/- or the 6/-, and the recipient of the 10/-.

Mr. Hickey

Perhaps the valuation of the house had something to do with it.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

These officers went into everything, and I do not suppose that I found that in one per cent. of the cases were the complaints justified. That was my experience when I was dealing with the matter as Minister for Local Government. Our Department then only dealt with cases on appeal, but we got all sorts of complaints, and I sent these on to the Department of the Minister for Finance. I got so many persistent complaints that I often said to my colleague, Mr. MacEntee, the then Minister for Finance: "Why cannot you get your officers to deal with these?" and he would perhaps say: "My officers have dealt with it; it is a matter for your officers." Eventually we got together and got the cases examined by a committee of officials of both Departments. I sat on committees and my Parliamentary Secretary sat on committees examining these complaints. I think I can say with truth that, in the eight years I was Minister, I hardly got one case per year with which I could find any fault. Was that not a good record?

Mr. Brennan

Very good.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Whatever one may say about the means test, that is a different matter. That is the law. So far as the awarding of pensions by officials is concerned, it is straight, fair, honest and just between man and man in accordance with the law, and there is absolutely no foundation for ascribing political bias to any official with whom I have ever had any dealings.

Mr. Byrne

Alter the law regarding the means test. A very large number of people are suffering under it.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not permissible to advocate legislation in discussing an Estimate.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister refers to the means test. It could be altered.

An Ceann Comhairle

Which cannot be altered without legislation.

Mr. Davin

I suggest one could alter the mentality of the people who arrive at the means.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There are schedules which are arrived at after long discussions between the Departments as to the values. In an agricultural holding, for instance, the value of the stock is taken into account. The officials meet the officials of the Department of Agriculture and of the Land Commission and arrive at what they regard as a fair average figure for such a holding, with so many acres of such a class of land and so many cattle, sheep, goats, etc. The official is tied to that figure. He does not use his own judgment in estimating, but goes according to the table laid down.

Mr. Byrne

Is the Minister aware that poor law relief is taken in as means? I sat the whole morning on old age pension cases and two or three cases of poor law relief. It is not meant by law to include poor law relief.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Relief is means. Means is means. Income is income, wherever it comes from. That would have to be dealt with by law.

Mr. Byrne

I hope the Minister will deal with it.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

If Deputy Brennan suggests that in his area there is a grievance, I would be quite happy to meet him myself and go through any list of cases in confidence. He need not let anybody know that he is bringing up certain names. I will get the officials together and he can investigate all the facts and figures on which these pensions were granted, and I think he will be satisfied. At any rate, I invite any member of the House to bring up any individual case and I will examine it.

Mr. Davin

That is fair enough.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

And I will get the officials to put before any Deputy all the facts and figures on each pension awarded, and I think they will be satisfied that there is nothing like political bias——

Mr. Brennan

I did not suggest that.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

——behind the individual officer who is dealing anywhere in the country with the old age pension claims. In all parts of the country, Deputy Dillon suggests, we should take an area and revise it. We get so many complaints that in every area there are picked cases under examination every week in the year.

Mr. Corish

Cases are always under review.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There are so many complaints that there is a constant review.

Mr. Brennan

Only the complaints are reviewed.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

They are numerous enough.

Mr. Brennan

But they may not be the worst cases.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

There are so many complaints and letters that one would imagine that the ones that are bad would surely come to our attention.

Mr. Davin

Does the Department inquire into anonymous complaints?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Yes.

Mr. Davin

They should be put in the waste-paper basket.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

We inquire into them for our own information. Since I became Minister for Finance I have not got those numerous complaints which I received in the Department of Local Government. The country people fondly imagine that the Minister for Local Government is solely responsible for the old age pensions. He is not: he deals only with cases that go to him on appeal; he is the Appeals Officer. The vast majority are dealt with through the officials of the Minister for Finance—the Revenue Commissioners in this case. I have nothing further to say, but will repeat that I should be glad to deal with any complaints of injustice.

Vote agreed to, and reported.