Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 19 Feb 1942

Vol. 85 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 77—Damage to Property (Neutrality) Compensation.

Minister for Finance (Mr. O Ceallaigh)

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim breise, ná raghaidh thar £65,000, chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1942, chun Cúitimh agus Iocaíochtaí eile maidir le Díobhála do Mhaoin de dheascaibh aer-árthaighe coigríche do scaoileadh bombaí anuas agus teagmhaisí eile dá shamhail sin le linn an Stát do bheith gan bheith páirteach i gcogadh.

That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £65,000, be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1942, for Compensation and other Payments in connection with Injuries to Property due to the dropping of bombs by foreign aircraft and kindred incidents while the State is not engaged in war.

The House may remember that when, some months ago, this subject was before the House, I promised Deputy Cosgrave that I would bring in a token Vote later on to enable further discussion to take place on this matter. Well, it has become necessary to move more than a token sum, a sum of a considerable amount, and it fulfils two purposes: first, to give the necessary opportunity for discussion that was promised, and also to provide the sum of £65,000, which is necessary to enable additional provision to be made for recouping local authorities money spent by them in making damaged dwelling houses habitable, and in giving grants to people for the purchase of immediate necessities in the way of furniture and clothing. When I moved the Vote formerly, I explained that the £50,000 Estimate was only tentative. We now find that compensation payments to individuals up to the end of the financial year will use up about £15,000, leaving a balance of £35,000 for reimbursements to local authorities.

To the end of December last, expenditure by the Dublin Corporation and Dun Laoghaire Borough Corporation amounted to £125,200 and £4,560, respectively; allowing for expenditure by other local authorities the total would be in the neighbourhood of £132,000. It will be some time yet before the local authorities are in a position to present their claims in detail, and further time must elapse before the claims can be fully examined and audited. As the local authorities could hardly be expected to wait for full recoupment until this has taken place, it is proposed to make them a payment on account before the end of the financial year. The additional provision now asked for, together with the balance of £35,000 to which I have referred, will enable me to repay local authorities something like 70 per cent. to 75 per cent. of their expenditure to date.

Up to date, 1,250 claims, roughly, for compensation under the Act have been lodged, and claims are coming in at the rate of something less than 50 a week. We have made offers of compensation in 139 cases, 80 of which have been accepted. None has been refused so far.

Mr. Norton

Would the Minister say what is the total number of claims received to date?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

About 1,250.

Mr. Norton

How many have been dealt with finally?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I am not sure how many have been dealt with finally but I will find out.

General Mulcahy

I am glad that some move is taking place in this matter. When I heard from the Minister that he is meeting the local authorities half-way——

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Three-quarters of the way.

General Mulcahy

When he is meeting the local authorities to the very large extent of three-quarters of their bills, I hope that I will be able to persuade the Minister, in a certain number of urgent cases at any rate, of unfortunate people who are not in the happy position of the local authorities, who are simply living on their own resources, some of which are very slender, to take cognisance of their condition and give them a grant to meet some part of their claim for which it is clear that there is a prima facie case. I want to direct the attention of the Minister to the very serious hardships arising out of cases in the North Strand area, where a very considerable amount of damage was done to the premises of people in business. There is a variety of cases. You have the case of people whose business was destroyed but who had a business elsewhere and who were able to transfer part of their business elsewhere and, at any rate, were able to earn an income sufficient to keep them in circumstances in which they could wait for whatever compensation was due to them. You have others who are not able to do anything to provide for their future. Amongst those people whose business was completely destroyed you had two classes: those who were satisfied to allow the corporation to take over their premises completely and those who objected to the corporation taking over their premises and who were taking action that would delay a decision, both as regards their compensation and as regards what the corporation would do. Between the various classes there has been some slowing up. As to those people who did not object to the corporation taking over their property, there ought to be no difficulty in meeting them almost at once, at any rate to the extent to which the Minister is meeting the local authorities. Whatever compensation the local authority is to give them, whatever compensation is due for the demolition of their premises, it should be possible to make a fair shot at the amount and to give them an advance on their compensation.

But then there are other cases of which I find it necessary to give a description so that the Minister will understand how urgent the conditions are. There is the case of a man who had a hairdressing establishment in the North Strand area. He owned the premises and had a fairly good weekly profit. He was able to buy a house in another part of the city through a building society and there was a mortgage on his premises on the North Strand. He was able to pay the interest and a sum in repayment of the principal under his mortgage; he was able to pay rates and taxes; he was able to keep a family of six, and he had a small account in the bank. After eight or nine months he now finds himself in a position in which his business is completely wiped out and he is unable to get any other place in which to start business. He is eating into his money; in fact his money is practically all gone, and his family are in a very bad way. Owing to interest which is due on the mortgage on his property and other bills the man is getting into debt. Eight or nine months have passed since his business was destroyed; he has not been assisted in any way out of any of the relief schemes and no approach has been made to him either by the Government or the corporation to put him into a position to get a premises so that he could get back to his work. That is one type of case.

Another type of case is that of a widow who was the owner of property which brought her in £166 per year and which was her only means of livelihood. She maintained a son and daughter. That was all she had to live on and her whole income was completely wiped out. Since her income ceased she had to sell her furniture to keep herself and her family. She owes two years' rates on her private house for which the corporation are threatening to sue her. She owes £20 in ground rent and she has no money to pay any of these. She has not been able to get relief of any kind or any advance to help her to tide over the present situation. Another lady was the owner of a house in which she kept lodgers. Her husband brought in £4 8s. 8d. per week in wages. The woman herself was injured and spent three weeks in hospital. The husband was also injured and was discharged from hospital after three weeks. He was certified from the hospital as being fit for work, but he was subsequently examined by another doctor who certified him as unfit and he has not been working since. There you have a person who was keeping lodgers and whose husband was earning £4 8s. 8d. per week. For some time past the total income of these people is £1 2s. 6d. which they receive from the labour exchange. They have been given a corporation house for which they have to pay 10/9 per week and 1/3 for electric light. The woman is attending the hospital still, and as she is not able to go to the hospital unattended bus fares cost her about 5/- a week.

Another lady was running a dairy and grocery shop in that area. She owned the house and the shop and was able to maintain herself and a niece in fairly comfortable circumstances. Her means of livelihood was completely wiped out and she and her niece are living on the charity of the woman's brother. She applied to the Red Cross Society and obtained no help. Another lady was running a green-grocery for ten years and had an income of about £3 a week which was sufficient to keep her and to pay her rent. She was unable to get any relief from the Red Cross Society when her business was wiped out. She was told to apply for outdoor relief. She filled up certain forms for relief but it was some time before she got £4 5s. 6d. Then she got £5 from the Red Cross Society. She applied for the widows' pension and was allowed 7/6 per week. She has to pay 10/9 a week to the corporation and she is in a very great state of poverty.

Then you have the case of a man who has a wife and six children. He is not so badly off from the point of view of income. His house was damaged and he was living in three rooms over a shop. A large part of the house being damaged, the roof had to be taken off and the house had to be covered with tarpaulin. He had no money to effect repairs. Because repairs would cost more than £130, the corporation would not do them. He has been able to get no advance from the Government to have repairs done. This man, with his wife and six children, are living in three rooms over a shop, which he lets. Because he has not money to get repairs done, there is a tarpaulin over one side of the family residence. In the meantime, the cost of building has gone up and it will be much more expensive to have repairs done now than it would originally have been. He is anxious to get the repairs done but he is not able to lay hands on the necessary money.

I ask the Minister to say, particularly with regard to people whose living has been injured, that he will look quickly into these cases and, before another couple of weeks are past, do something for these people analogous to what has been done in regard to local authorities. There has been considerable lack of co-ordination and understanding between the different authorities in this matter and a considerable amount of time has been lost. The matter is now brought very definitely home to the Minister as his responsibility and I urge him to take immediate action with regard to it. Serious hardship has been caused and, if these people are left any longer as they are, they may not be able to get back into the kind of employment for which they are fitted and which has been traditionally theirs.

Mr. Cosgrave

One of the reasons why I asked that there should be a token Vote before the end of the year was that it was almost inevitable that some kind of case would arise in respect of which there would be doubt as to whether it was provided for under the Act or not. I know that we are not entitled to discuss anything on this Vote except what is provided for in it, but this is an exceptional Estimate.

An Ceann Comhairle

As the Minister has promised that a wider opportunity than is usual would be afforded for debate on this Estimate, I shall not rule strictly.

Mr. Cosgrave

Persons engaged in one class of business are apprehensive that their business is not covered by the Act. I refer to pawnbrokers. They are not owners of the property pledged with them. Presumably, the people who left their property with them would not be regarded as owners either. Perhaps the Minister would look into that case and see whether provision is made for compensation in respect of property taken in by pawnbrokers. One sub-section would suggest that that type of case had been thought of but it is not clear and it can be appreciated that complications might arise. Those who left their property with the pawnbroker might look to the person who made the advance for compensation while, if the property were to be restored to the original owner, the claim of the pawnbroker would arise. The persons concerned are in doubt whether the case is provided for or not and it is not clear from the Act that it is provided for.

Mr. Norton

I understood from the Minister's reply to an inquiry by me that, approximately, 1,250 claims had been received to date. Could the Minister give us the amount of cash involved in those claims and the number of claims which have been paid to date?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The number of claims finally dealt with is 139.

Mr. Norton

And the amount paid?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have not that.

Mr. Norton

Can the Minister say the amount claimed in respect of the 1,250 claims?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have not that information but I shall send it to the Deputy.

Mr. Norton

How many of these claims were in respect of property as distinct from personal injury?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

All the claims dealt with refer to property.

Mr. Norton

And how much has been paid?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

The number of claims dealt with is 139. I have not the figure of the amount claimed.

Mr. Norton

I was trying to get a picture of the damage done and to ascertain the expedition with which claims are being dealt with.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

If the Deputy puts down a question, I shall get the information for him.

Mr. Norton

Have any claims been paid, so far, in respect of personal injuries?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

No. The order is still under discussion in the Seanad.

General Mulcahy

We are hoping to improve the scale of compensation.

Mr. Norton

When dealing with the Department of Finance, that hope is more pious than sound. There is a note to this Estimate which states that the expenditure will be offset to the extent of any compensation recovered from external Governments or authorities. I do not know what representations have been made by the Department of External Affairs to the German Government in respect of the ascertained damage. Does the Minister believe that there is any prospect of recovering compensation from the German Government before this war is over, or does he hope to recover any compensation after the war?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

We always live in hope.

Mr. Norton

Then, expenditure will be offset by hopes, and only hopes?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

For the present.

Mr. Norton

It is simply a hope; there is no cash. I shall put down a question, as the Minister suggested. I had some discussions with the Department of Finance in connection with compensation claims. The Minister, when in opposition, would agree with me that the spirit of Pharaoh enshrouded the Department of Finance in most matters. My experience in discussing bombing compensation cases with the Department gave me the impression that there was a new spirit there. I found only a desire to deal with cases expeditiously, sympathetically, and helpfully. When urgent cases were brought to the notice of the Department—I refer only to bombing cases—there was willingness to deal with them expeditiously and, I might say, very efficiently.

Mr. Corry

Is the Deputy referring to the Department of Finance?

Mr. Norton

I refer only to bombing cases, and only to cases which I handled personally. In respect of the rest of the Department, the spirit of Pharaoh still flourishes there. I hope the Minister will be able to tell us, in his reply, when it is hoped to dispose of all these claims. If the German Government is not going to meet them, let us deal with them in the spirit that these were unfortunate Irish people who suffered by the unfortunate dropping of bombs on our territory. As a community, we should be glad to ensure that, so far as our finances permit, these cases will be dealt with sympathetically, understandingly and in a broad human spirit. They should be dealt with, too, as quickly as possible, so that the minimum of hardship will be imposed upon these unfortunate people.

Mr. Dockrell

Having listened to this debate, I am, like other Deputies, anxious to get information on behalf of some of the unfortunate victims of the bombing. I notice that Deputy Norton, like the rest of us, is anxious to know at what rate claims are being liquidated. I understand the Minister mentioned that something like 10 per cent. of them had been agreed upon. That was a rough and ready figure and the Minister was uncertain of the number in which a financial payment had been made. I also understood the Minister to say that some time before the end of the financial year 75 per cent. of the compensation would be made available to local authorities. Does that mean that nobody can hope to receive payment before the end of the financial year? If it has taken nine months to dispose of 10 per cent. of the claims the Minister can furnish a date on which the last of the claims will be settled. Stress has been laid on the hardship caused individuals who cannot order their lives until they know in what position they will be in in respect of their claims, and I should like to press the Minister for some acceleration there. People would be glad to hear even that their claims had been provisionally accepted or something like that. I urge the Minister to give some hope to nine-tenths of the people as to what their position is in regard to claims.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I think the calculation made by Deputy Dockrell about 10 per cent. of the claims being dealt with in nine months is not a fair one. It is certainly nine months since the bombing took place, and to say that we have only dealt with 10 per cent. of the claims since the bombing is, I consider, fair enough. The legislation was only passed last September, and we could not have considered any claim before that. It was about November 1st, before the regulations were printed and issued so that claims could be sent in. We expected a rush of claims but people took their time about sending them in. They came in extremely slowly for the first two months, but probably they had to take time to examine carefully all the official writing contained in the forms and to get advice.

At any rate, even in urgent cases— and the cases that Deputy Mulcahy referred to are urgent—they were very slow about sending in claims for months after the forms had been delivered. However, the claims are coming in now. We have received at least 1,250 to date. They are coming in at the rate of 50 a week and will be dealt with rapidly. We could not start to calculate anything before the legislation was passed and the forms that were issued came in. It also took time to organise the staff. Not alone had we to set up a special section in Finance to deal with the matter, but we had also to get the Board of Works to do a considerable amount of work in the way of examination in relation to buildings and furniture, and the local authority also came into it. Even with the best will in the world, and with a desire to be as expeditious as possible, there were at least three Departments or sub-departments of the Government, and the local authorities that had, owing to the necessities of the case, to examine claims and to make a detailed examination of the facts set out in them. That takes time.

I was glad to hear the comment of Deputy Norton regarding his experience in the Department. It cannot have been a great experience, but such as he had up to the present in dealing with claims for damage to property he said he found the officials of the Department ready to meet him and to do everything possible to facilitate him. I do not think that is confined to the section which deals with these claims. As far as my experience goes it is not.

Mr. Norton

It was my only experience of that Department.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

It is certainly true of all the officials dealing with these types of case. If Deputy Mulcahy would be good enough to give me further particulars of the cases he mentioned I will make a special note of them and see that they are dealt with with the greatest expedition. I know that letters reached me about some of the cases he mentioned and everything we can do about them will be done. I realise that when Deputy Mulcahy referred to the hardship these people suffered and as to what Deputy Norton also said, they were not over-stating the facts. Through no fault of their own these people have been put in a very serious position and their lives upset. The word "upset" is not nearly strong enough to describe the upset to their lives and their future. It has been of the greatest magnitude. I realise that, and anything that can be done within the powers that the Dáil has given us to mitigate that upset as soon as possible I hope to have done. I should like Deputies in every part of the House if they come across cases that they regard as ones of special urgency to notify me and I will have everything possible done. I know that the officials will be only too glad to take pains in those cases so that they will be dealt with as expeditiously and as generously as possible. Deputy Norton asked about the prospects of payment. I believe we will get payment, but God knows when. Who can tell when this war will end? I do not think there will be any prospect of getting any money before the war ends.

Mr. Norton

Has not the German Government assets in Spain and Portugal? I presume that we have communication with these two countries and if so would it not be possible to have some of these assets transferred to us?

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I do not think the aspect the Deputy mentions has been thought of but I will inquire. I think all those engaged in this war on any side had their hands pretty full and have a very good excuse for saying that as they are urgently engaged this matter will have their attention later, but that at present they ask to be excused from making any examination of the kind suggested. That is the probable answer we would get.

Mr. Norton

We get that kind of an answer here too.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

Not for the same good reasons. We are not at war.

Mr. Norton

For less reason, we get the same answer.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

In reply to Deputy Cosgrave, the type of case he mentioned has been brought to our notice and the matter is at present being examined by the legal advisers but no decision has been arrived at as yet. However, the matter is engaging our attention.

General Mulcahy

I do not think that people can be blamed for the delay in submitting their claims. There was a good deal of confusion in connection with this matter and in many cases the claims were submitted to the corporation. I have endeavoured in all these cases to get people to work through a solicitor in order, in the first place, to safeguard the interests of the people involved and, in the second place, to make matters easier for the Department. It expedites matters to have them handled in a suitable way. I do not want to spoil the beautiful picture painted by Deputy Norton in regard to the generally satisfactory way in which claims are met, but I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to this unsatisfactory feature. Take a case in which there is a claim for the loss of a set of artificial teeth. It is argued that there is a limited life to a set of artificial teeth and the Department declines to provide the cost of a new denture. They offer two-ninths or three-ninths of the cost or something like that. I think it is an appalling thing to have the Department meet people who have suffered the kind of upset these people have had to endure in that way. I hope the Minister will be able to secure that that particular type of rebutting claims will not be the dominant feature of the discussion of these claims between the Department and people who have applied for compensation.

An Ceann Comhairle

I take it that the discussion has now concluded.

General Mulcahy

I hope the Minister will see that that is a spirit which should not be allowed to dominate the Government attitude in dealing with matters of this kind.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I have nothing further to add.

General Mulcahy

It is an awful thing to meet a person who claims for the loss of artificial teeth with the statement that he had his previous denture for five years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his case.

Vote put and agreed to.