I move that the Taxes and Duties (Special Circumstances) Bill, 1942, be now read a Second Time.
Committee on Finance. - Taxes and Duties (Special Circumstances) Bill, 1942—Second and Subsequent Stages.
The Second Stage of the Bill is usually taken with the Financial Motion.
We are taking the Second Stage?
The two are generally debated together, as the same principle is embodied in the Bill and in the Financial Resolution.
The only thing I want to say is that, at a time when there is such a demand for saving paper and other things, I think it is very funny to be introducing measures of this kind and using up paper on these Bills. One would imagine that this country was a Continent, and that you could have an invasion in one part of it and the income-tax being collected in the ordinary way in another part; that we could have Emergency (Imposition of Duty) Orders about customs duties and all that being absolutely and rigidly enforced according to the law. It seems to be a fantastic idea to think that we could have such an invasion here, that this House could not meet and, nevertheless, that the income-tax collectors would be absolutely immune from anything going on in the country, and also the people from whom the income-tax would have to be collected. That is the impression that this measure makes on me.
Question put and agreed to.
When is it proposed to take the Committee Stage?
Is there any objection to taking it now?
Except the Minister has anything to say that would make us wiser.
I have not because, as I said, I could not make the Deputy wiser. I would want to try very hard, even on this subject. This is a purely emergency measure and, if I did not take time by the forelock and have something of this kind provided for by statute and what we hope will never happen did happen, then I would be blamed because the whole financial position would be in a chaotic condition. That is my only excuse for introducing this Bill and, as the Deputy says, wasting paper and ink. But it is a precautionary and necessary step that I think should be taken.
The Minister is preparing to face Saint Peter with a very clean sheet if he is as meticulous in everything else as he is in this.
Is there any objection to taking the other Stages now?
There has been enough paper wasted without wasting time on it. I do not want it to come before the House again.
Agreed to take the remaining Stages now.
Bill considered in Committee.
Sections 1 to 8, inclusive, put and agreed to.
SECTION 9.
Question proposed: "That Section 9 stand part of the Bill."
How does the Minister expect to have those taxes collected if the Taoiseach and the Ceann Comhairle cannot even meet to summon the Dáil? How does he expect the collectors to collect the taxes?
I think the Deputy knows that the income-tax authorities are very resourceful.
There is one person I think who is more resourceful and might be able to get more out of anybody from whom he wished to get it, and that is the man with the gun.
It seems to me that probably the Minister is quite right in having this Bill passed, but it seems a very limited part of the field which we can all imagine should be covered. I do not know how far the Minister has envisaged what has happened in other countries happening here. If he thinks that the income-tax authorities might be prevented from functioning, we would be very lucky indeed if that was the only thing which happened to this country. Some Deputies laugh at that and I suppose that can be taken in many ways. I cannot imagine an invader who only thought in terms of the income-tax in connection with this country. Surely if such circumstances as the Minister has envisaged came about, there would be a whole lot of things that should be put in force immediately. Some things ought to be done immediately and others ought to be undone. I do not know whether the Minister can see his way to giving us a list of what ought to be done and what ought not to be done in case of an emergency such as is envisaged. Certainly, even if the Minister thought it was not in the public interest to broadcast information such as that, there ought to be some way of communicating it at least to Deputies. Fortunately Deputies are not looked upon as the most ignorant persons in the country, and there is still a certain number of misguided people who are inclined to stop a Deputy and ask him his advice about certain things in certain contingencies. Surely the Minister ought to be able to exercise his mind along the lines on which he has apparently started and not stop with the income-tax collectors. Surely we ought to have some idea as to certain steps which the Government would hope we would not take and others that we would. How that ought to be communicated to us I leave it to the Minister's ingenuity to decide.
Question put and agreed to.
Section 10 and Title put and agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be now received for final consideration."
Will the Minister give me any answer?
On the Fifth Stage possibly. It is apparently outside the scope of this measure. The Deputy realises that this Bill is very circumscribed.
It is, but it is circumscribed by the action of the Minister and the Government. I contend that the point I have raised flows logically from it, and if the Minister could tell us whether that would be desirable, I would be satisfied.
Question put and agreed to.
Question proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."
A review of the broad question that Deputy Dockrell raised does not necessarily arise out of this Bill and I suggest that we would be out of order in discussing the wider aspect of the matter. What is in the Deputy's mind might, perhaps, be usefully discussed on another occasion, not necessarily by the Minister for Finance. There are other Ministers, I think, who will have the responsibility put upon them to a much greater extent than the Minister for Finance in looking after the wider aspect of the matter which the Deputy has in mind. But, as the Deputy is aware, there would be aspects of that matter which it would not be wise to discuss in this House. It might in some way be regarded as offensive to some Powers to have a matter of that kind and the questions which might arise out of it discussed; some people might see offence to them in it, unnecessarily so perhaps.
I know that measures which might be taken have been discussed; measures that might be advisable in such contingencies have been considered, and the matter has not been neglected. But it would not be wise, I think, to have a really all-in discussion on that matter in the House because, even though the Deputy says that the members of the Dáil are not to be regarded—and I do not think are regarded—as ignorant people, they are not all discreet people and there might be a Deputy on some side of the House, it might be on this side or the other side, who might say things that would not be helpful, and anything said here would naturally have to be broadcast. I am not sure that it would be the wisest course to adopt, to have a widespread discussion on the order of things the Deputy has in mind, at such a time. I do not think there is any immediate necessity for it. At any rate, the possibilities that might arise here out of this emergency situation have been reviewed by the Government and certain advice to the people and to organisations concerned has been drafted, at least in temporary form, to be ready if the emergency that the Deputy and others have in mind did ever arise. I hope the necessity for these things and the necessity for this legislation will never trouble us.
Question put and agreed to.
This is a Money Bill within the meaning of Article 22 of the Constitution.
Seanad Eireann to be notified accordingly.