Committee on Finance. - Vote 75—Damage to Property (Neutrality) Compensation. – Dáil Éireann (10th Dáil) – Thursday, 16 Jul 1942

Committee on Finance. - Vote 75—Damage to Property (Neutrality) Compensation.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £170,000 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1943, for Compensation and other Payments in connection with Injuries to Property caused by the dropping of bombs from foreign aircraft and kindred incidents while the State is not engaged in war (No. 24 of 1941).

This Vote is required to meet expenditure during the present year under the Neutrality (War Damage to Property) Act, 1941, which was passed by the Oireachtas last September. As the matter is so recent, Deputies may be interested to know the extent of the claims received under the Act, and the progress that has been made in dealing with them.

Claims arise in the main from one or other of the bombing incidents (a) at Campile, in August, 1940; (b) at Sandycove, in December, 1940; (c) at Terenure and the South Circular Road, Dublin, in January, 1941, and (d) at the North Strand in May, 1941. There were other incidents causing less extensive injuries arising from the dropping of bombs—e.g., in Counties Carlow, Louth, Wicklow, or the explosion of land or sea mines by the Army authorities, or from sea mines exploding from time to time around the coast —notably in County Wexford.

The expenditure under the Act in 1941-42 amounted to £111.880 (out of a Vote provision of £115,000). The bulk of it was paid to local authorities in recoupment of moneys spent by them —under the authority of the Government—on repairs to injured dwelling-houses, and on cash advances for the purchases of immediate necessities in the shape of furniture and/or clothing. This expenditure went to reduce pro tanto the number of claims—and the amounts claimed—by individuals for losses to which the Act applies.

The Act allows a period of 12 months for the lodgment of claims. 2,034 applications, amounting to £317,000, have so far (30th June, 1942) been lodged— including 18 from Campile, 20 from Sandycove, 397 from Terenure and South Circular Road, and 1,488 from the North Strand. Claims are still coming in at the rate of 25 to 30 each week.

The investigations which are necessary to enable my Department to deal with the applications are proceeding as rapidly as possible and offers of compensation have been made in 970 cases, in very few of which have the amounts offered been questioned by the applicants; in all of these cases agreement was eventually reached, with one exception, which is under further examination. If an applicant is not satisfied with the amount offered, he can refuse the offer and apply to the Circuit Court for compensation. The Minister for Finance is entitled to refuse to make an offer of compensation and to leave the applicant—if he so desires—to seek his remedy in the court; this course has, however, been adopted only in about 24 cases, in which the entire claims were clearly outside the scope of the Act. In no case, so far, has an application been made to the Circuit Court for compensation.

The present Vote, like last year's, contains provision for recouping local authorities' expenditure, incurred by them on structural repairs, etc. The amount included for this purpose is £72,000, part of which represents the balance which, after examination and audit, may be found due to the local authorities in respect of expenditure incurred last year; provision is also included for recoupment to Government Departments of expenditure incurred by them on reinstatement or repair of injured buildings (e.g., the homestead of the Shannon family in County Carlow). In both cases the expenditure represents emergency assistance given in necessitous cases more rapidly than could be the case under the normal procedure requiring the lodgment of formal claims under the Act.

The Estimate also includes provision for the payment that will fall to be made to the Dublin Corporation in respect of the buildings in the North Strand area which they are in process of acquiring for the purposes of a town planning scheme under the Act. The corporation will be entitled to a payment equivalent to the diminution in the market value of the acquired property occasioned by the bombing, whilst they, in their turn, will be responsible for the payment of compensation to the owners, or other persons having an estate right or interest in the acquired property, on the basis of the condition of the property before the injury took place.

Mr. McGilligan

Should what has happened in the past happen again, I hope that the Minister and those dealing with such matters will have learned to take a more humane view, and not so entirely a Departmental view, of the sufferings of people caused through these bomb explosions. No part of my constituency was affected by any of the raids, but many people in the North Strand eventually secured housing in Cabra and, in that way, came into North-West Dublin. I met a number of them. There was, in fact, a time when the number of those drifting down to various places where I was working became embarrassing. It may be true to say that none of these claims proceeded as far as the Circuit Court but, if that phrase is intended to create the impression that these people were satisfied, it is very far from being the truth. I have always expressed the view that those of us who did not suffer in these explosions are so thankful to have escaped that we would willingly pay a fair amount of money to reinstate the poor people in the position they were prior to the explosions. On behalf of this Party, I guaranteed that if it had meant any increased taxation, or something specially allocated, to make good the loss that these people suffered, this Party would not have raised the slightest argument against that particular item of taxation. I ask if a lesson should not have been learned from what happened. Some preparation should be made against the recurrence of such a ghastly business, after hearing these people talking of the experiences they had when they were practically left bereft of any clothing, some having had to get immediate protection and to huddle around while they were being taken to some sort of shelter, and then to find the hardship inflicted on them afterwards in connection with miserable grants of the most meagre and niggardly type.

The whole thing was in the nature of an emergency and, naturally, there was an excuse for the rush. One thing that always struck me as being very harsh in connection with the payments made to these people is the manner in which the Department assesses the amounts. If a person loses a piece of property through an explosion, what he gets is not something to put him on the road again. Those who were bombed in the North Strand were mainly people who had no money or resources. Yet, we had meticulous calculation in respect of depreciation in respect of cases under this Act. A man and his wife came and told me that on the night of the bombing in the North Strand an old lady member of the family who had retired to bed had, according to the best practice, a glass of water beside her in which she kept her false teeth. The bomb came, and the false teeth went. That lady applied for compensation. The claim was ruled along the lines that she had had the teeth so many years, and that, therefore, a depreciated value should be put upon them. When she interviewed me, she was without teeth because she had no resources wherewith to get a new set. Unless she made herself a pauper and went to the South Dublin Union, she could not get a fit-ment. I do not say that that case was typical, but it was an example. Certain other types of property were also depreciated. These people went to some kind of valuer, and they put in a claim based on his valuation. The claim was ruled down, so that there was depreciation in respect of every item. That is ludicrous. Anybody with a sense of the ridiculous would have avoided such a cutting down of claims as that. These people had hardships imposed upon them, and the rest of the community had such sympathy with them that they would rather err on the side of putting them in a better position than they were before than try to make cheese-paring economies at their expense. If any such thing should happen again, I hope a newer, better and more humane attitude will be taken up.

Mr. L. Walsh

I should like to ask the Minister if any provision is being made in the case of destruction by our national forces, such as was the result of the regrettable happening we had at Laytown a few days ago. The people there lost considerable property and my information is to the effect that they cannot recover anything from the State. If our Government can make good damage done by foreign planes, I do not see any reason why nationals who suffer damage in such accidents as I have referred to should not also be compensated. I should be glad if the Minister would make the position clear in that regard.

General Mulcahy

I should like to emphasise the human point made by Deputy McGilligan. On the property side, there does seem to be a systematic and fairly accurate estimate of the damage done. I can agree with the Minister that in most of the cases of damage to building—property and substantial furniture—there has been general satisfaction with the amount of the awards. That is so far as I have been in touch with these cases. There has been a certain amount of delay in connection with the making of awards. I should like the Minister to tell us whether, in cases where compensation will be paid through the local authority, there has been a better linking up of the machinery between the local authority and the Department as to the type of work it will do and the way in which compensation will be paid. There was a considerable amount of confusion in that respect. After the experience at Terenure, there was a chance of visualising the situation and arranging for clearing up things in a more satisfactory way than was adopted in the case of the North Strand. Now that additional experience has been gained and that there has been a certain amount of experience in dealing with cases through the local authority, I should like to be assured that the machinery has been speeded up in case, as Deputy McGilligan mentioned, something similar should occur again, which God forbid. A good deal of trouble and loss is caused by delay. Unless people who are in business can get back quickly into that business, they suffer in a way which cannot be met by compensation.

Mr. O Ceallaigh

I quite accept Deputy McGilligan's description of the hardships inflicted on the people on whom these bombs fell in the North Strand and elsewhere. Everybody in the country has deep sympathy with the victims in these cases. That has been my attitude and, so far as I am aware, the attitude of the officials dealing with these matters. I have found the officials with whom I come in contact as humane as Deputy McGilligan or Deputy Mulcahy. They are anxious to meet these people sympathetically and to help them. Many of the claims were modest claims. Very few of the claims that I heard of, especially those from the poorer people, had been grossly inflated. There were a few cases of that kind but not a big percentage. The whole attitude of the officials was to meet the claimants sympathetically, but the officials have to bear in mind that they are subject to the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who examines each one of these payments in a very scrupulous way. So does the Committee on Public Accounts. They have, therefore, to be cautious. I noted what Deputy McGilligan said when this matter was previously debated about his own desire and the desire of his Party being to treat these people generously. I was glad to hear that. It accorded with what I would expect and with my own wishes and views. When I got the report for this Estimate, I was very pleased indeed to see that so many cases had been settled—and in most cases settled satisfactorily. The total number of claims was 2,034 from all parts of Ireland, including 1,488 from the North Strand, North Circular Road, Summerhill and Phænix Park. Those represented nearly three-fourths of the total claims. Of these, offers of compensation have been made in 970 cases and in very few cases have the amounts offered been questioned by the applicants.

I think that is a good and creditable record for the Department. The officials are to be congratulated on the rapidity with which they dealt with these cases and on the fact that they were able to settle 970 cases satisfactorily in such a comparatively short period.

The point that Deputy Mulcahy raised, about co-operation between the Government and local authorities in settling these cases of property, has been satisfactorily arranged and is working smoothly. There was a time when it was not working so smoothly and when people were sent from one place to another and did not know where the responsibility lay.