asked the Minister for Defence if it has been represented to him that grave unrest exists in the Dublin area amongst the personnel of the Auxiliary Fire Services because of the failure of the responsible authorities to issue the men a supply of suitable uniforms; whether he will say if it was represented to him that in July last the A/District officers were desirous that a deputation from the service would be allowed to make representations in the matter to the Parliamentary Secretary; and whether he can say if any, and if so what, reply has been given to those representations; and whether he is now in a position to say if there will be an issue of suitable uniforms and waterproof clothing, etc., as asked for by the service.
Ceisteanna—Questions. Oral Answers. - Dublin Auxiliary Fire Services.
I am aware that a certain amount of dissatisfaction has been expressed by members of the Auxiliary Fire Service in the Dublin area because a special type of uniform has not been issued to that service. I know also that a request was received in my Department for the reception of a deputation from the officers of this service in July last.
The main issue in the July representations was on the question of compensation. Advance information as to the terms of the revised scheme was given by the Minister for Finance in the Seanad on 17th July, 1942. The revised A.R.P. Services Compensation Scheme was made by the Minister for Finance on the 21st August, 1942, and the attention of the City Manager was directed to it on the 5th September, 1942. The conditions under which Auxiliary Fire Service training and exercises were carried out and a comparison of the uniforms and equipment of that service with that supplied to other volunteer services caused my Department to consider the question of the provision of new uniforms for the Auxiliary Fire Service long before the matter was raised by the members of the service, but until a few days ago no definite statement could be made by me on the matter.
I have in the last few days informed the City Manager that I am now in a position to agree to the issue of a special type of uniform for the Auxiliary Fire Service, but I cannot state when the issue will be made owing to the supply difficulties to be overcome. The question of waterproof clothing in connection with the Auxiliary Fire Service has not been raised to my knowledge, nor should it arise. The Auxiliary Fire Services are issued with heavy waterproof clothing which may be used in wet drills.
Is it the intention to supply the services referred to in Dublin and Dun Laoghaire with boots and, if so, when?
If, in fact, there is dissatisfaction in this service, which is, like most of the other defence services, entirely a voluntary service, and which is the only one that has been on active service, does the Parliamentary Secretary not consider that it would have been well to have met these officers and told them what he has told the House to-day, that he could not supply them with uniforms, rather than leave these men with a feeling of frustration and the knowledge that they had gone through the proper channels in order to have a deputation received by him and the whole thing was completely ignored? Will the Parliamentary Secretary consider that point?
Judging by the attitude of certain members of the Dáil, it would seem as if they believe that the A.R.P. organisation has grown up in a sort of haphazard fashion, without any set plan or scheme of organisation, as if it were a voluntary organisation carried on its own steam, as it were, without receiving any help from the Department of Defence. That is altogether incorrect and I think it would be far better for voluntary organisations, which must have a certain discipline, if matters which could be settled amicably between the Department of Defence and those organisations were not so often raised in this House.
This is the only one.
It is not the only one. Deputy Benson said it would have been better to have met the deputation and given them the information that was given here to-day. The Deputation asked to be received about the middle of July. On the 17th July the Minister for Finance gave the information to the Seanad. What was the purpose of seeing the deputation in such circumstances? I have been seeing deputations representing all these defence services whenever a reasonable demand was made.
Is the Parliamentary Secretary aware that representations were first made by the Auxiliary Fire Service as far back as April and no reply has yet been given to the members of that service either by the Parliamentary Secretary, the Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, or the Department of Defence? Is the Parliamentary Secretary further aware that although this service is expected to carry out its duties, it has not been properly equipped in the matter of rubber boots? There have been 14 pairs of boots issued to 40 members and that amounts to less than one boot each. Surely the Parliamentary Secretary will realise that in such circumstances grave dissatisfaction must exist. The situation can only be remedied by the Parliamentary Secretary receiving a deputation and hearing the men's grievances.
The Parliamentary Secretary stated that it would be very much better if these matters were not raised by members here. May I suggest to him that if this deputation which he tells us asked for a hearing last July had been received by him and dealt with by him, this matter would never have come to the House at all?
The Minister for the Co-ordination of Defensive Measures, the Minister for Defence, and myself, have no direct communication with the A.R.P. services in Dublin City; all communications are addressed to them through the City Manager. It would be much more to the point if any members of services who think that they have a method of correcting defects in those services would put their suggestions to the City Manager or to the A.R.P. officer for Dublin, and they would find them settled quite easily by us. With regard to the rubber boots, I cannot keep in mind the particular number issued to any service in any area. But rubber boots are not now obtainable, and, indeed, they could not be got for the past two years. We, realising the extent to which these rubber boots would be used by services such as ours, purchased 24,000 pairs in 1939. The reason we did not purchase more was because we could not get them. I think we have tried to meet every reasonable demand made by any section of the services. I do not deprecate the raising in this House of any question with regard to A.R.P., but I do deprecate interference by anybody with the discipline that should be maintained in any organised body.
In fairness to other people, does not the Parliamentary Secretary admit that the question of the provision of equipment and boots for members of the auxiliary fire-fighting service was raised at a meeting of a body set up by the House?
Mr. Byrne
Is it not a fact that the City Manager, in all matters affecting A.R.P., is acting directly under the Parliamentary Secretary's control and the City Manager has no power to remedy any grievance of A.R.P. workers?
The City Manager brings to my notice any defect in the organisation, and he has never hesitated to do so. That applies also to demands made by members of the services. I repeat that it would seem to me as if many people believe that the organisation has grown up in a haphazard fashion, without any settled plan or organisation. People are inclined to make representations about matters affecting A.R.P. without being properly acquainted with the facts. We decided three years ago on the type of organisation we would have. Conditions changed and we had to make certain changes. Agitations were created about giving to A.R.P. volunteers such things as badges, armlets, identification cards, helmets and uniforms. There was no necessity for agitation in regard to the delivery of any of these things by the Department of Defence, because long before any demand was made we had decided that these things would be issued. People will have to take into consideration the difficulty of supplies. When I decided that certain equipment must be provided, I had, firstly, to satisfy myself that I had a reasonable case for looking for it and also to prove definitely to the Department of Finance that the demand was reasonable. Deputy Hannigan might give £3 a week to agricultural labourers, but he will find many repercussions from such an action.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary——
Question 57.
Are you, Sir, not going to permit me to ask a supplementary question when the Parliamentary Secretary has been permitted to make a half an hour's speech? I think that most unfair.
If Deputies are dissatisfied with the Chair's rulings there is a regular method of expressing dissatisfaction.
Surely I am entitled to ask a supplementary question after listening to a speech of 20 minutes' duration by the Parliamentary Secretary?
Order!
Would you ask the Minister for Local Government, Sir, to keep order?
It will not get the rubber boots for the fire services.
We are not considering a question about rubber boots. The question was drafted by the Deputy and it contains no reference to rubber boots.
Or to £3 per week.