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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 29 Oct 1942

Vol. 88 No. 13

Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Bill, 1942—Second Stage.

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time. This Bill is of a composite character. Each section deals with a different point. The whole purpose of the Bill is to remedy certain difficulties which have appeared in the electricity supply code. Sections 2 and 3 have their origin in a recent judgment of the High Court in a case in which a former employee of the board who had been discharged from its service in the year 1933 succeeded in obtaining a judgement to the effect that his dismissal was invalid because, to put it briefly, it was held by the court that, as a person transferred from the service of a former undertaker to that of the board, he possessed, under the appropriate section of the Act of 1927, certain rights, amongst which was a condition that his dismissal following suspension, to be valid, required the consent of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. Prior to 1933 the board had applied for the consent of the Minister for Local Government to the removal from office of certain persons transferred to its service under the Act of 1927, and, as the Minister for Local Government was then advised that such a consent was not necessary, it was not sought for or obtained in the case of this official. The consequence is that the board may, as a result of the action to which I have referred and further legal proceedings, be compelled to pay to the plaintiff a large sum by way of arrears of salary since 1933.

Following that judgment, a number of other persons formerly in the service of the board, and who also possessed rights under Section 39 of the 1927 Act, have commenced proceedings against the board, claiming arrears of salary on the ground that they were not validly retired or dismissed. In those cases, and in over 30 other instances, the board is liable to be sued, on the grounds mentioned, for arrears of salary. In the majority of those cases the persons concerned were retired by the board on pension, and in two instances the persons concerned were dismissed for grave and admitted misconduct. In the case of the pensioners, the claims are, and would be, in respect of the difference between the pensions and the amount of salary on retirement, and in every case for the restoration of full employment.

I do not wish to enter into the question whether the person who received the High Court judgment to which I have referred was or was not dismissed for good reason. The judge at the hearing stated—I am quoting from the judge's statement:—

"Nobody could, on the facts, have quarrelled with the opinion of the board that the plaintiff had misconducted himself in relation to the duties of his position in the service of the board."

The Government considers, however, that it would not be desirable to invoke the Oireachtas to use its powers to nullify the judgment of the court, but it will probably be generally agreed that the existence of this judgment should not be allowed to be utilised as a basis on which to found a series of unjustifiable claims against the Electricity Supply Board.

It is, therefore, proposed to allow the judgment of the court to stand and to permit the plaintiff to recover such a sum as he may be awarded in the consequential proceedings now before the Supreme Court but, at the same time, it is proposed to prevent that judgment being used by others to recover from the board moneys to which they have no equitable title whatever. Proceedings other than those instituted against the board in this connection after the date on which this Bill was introduced—17th July, 1942—are, therefore, barred and in the case of those pending provision is made for the payment by the board of the taxed costs incurred by the plaintiffs. At the same time, I should point out that the Bill does not in any way worsen the conditions applicable to any transferred officer nor does it affect any of his rights. Any transferred officer who considers himself aggrieved by an act done in relation to him by the board has, under this Bill, a right of appeal to the Minister for Local Government and Public Health who is empowered either to annul or to confirm such act.

Another matter dealt with in the Bill is an amendment of Section 11 of the Electricity (Supply) (Amendment) Act, 1930, which section relates to the valuation of undertakings acquired by the board. Under the section of the 1930 Act to which I referred, where an undertaking was acquired after the 3rd July, 1930, the valuation for rating purposes is stabilised at that existing on the 1st April, 1929. Deputies from County Kerry will be particularly interested in this amendment. Representations were made that this restriction operated unfairly in certain cases and it is proposed to remove it, thereby substituting the valuation existing at the time when the undertaking was acquired. That change will remove a grievance of certain local authorities. A grievance of the Killarney Urban District Council in this connection was raised here in the Dáil some time ago.

A further provision in the Bill relates to certain employees of former undertakers—the Dublin Corporation and the Dublin United Transport Company —who lost their employment when the Pigeon House and Ringsend generating stations were closed by the board. Under Section 61 and the first Schedule to the Electricity (Supply) Act, 1927, these persons were awarded compensation in the form of annual pensions based upon service up to the time when their services were dispensed with. Subsequently these men were employed by the board after the re-opening by it of the Pigeon House station. It has been found that, under the law as it stands, the years of service with the board subsequent to the reopening of the Pigeon House station cannot be reckoned to supplement on ultimate retirement the pensions they already enjoy in respect of their service up to the closing of the station at which they had been employed. It should, of course, be understood that none of the men concerned on being employed or re-employed by the board received full salary or wages in addition to the pension awarded as compensation. Instead of this the board paid, as remuneration, the difference between the pension and the full appropriate salary or wage. All of these men possessed actual or prospective pension rights with the former undertakers in whose service they had been, and if, for example, the Pigeon House station had, instead of being closed for a time and then reopened, been maintained in continuous commission, the men employed at the station would have been entitled to count their entire period of service for pension purposes when ultimately they came to retire. Owing, however, to the break in their service they are not now entitled as the law stands to count their services from the time they resumed work.

I think it will be generally agreed that it would be unfair to permit the men concerned to lose for pension purposes the period of service from the time they recommenced work. The Bill, of course, does not propose that two pensions should be paid in any case—one for former service and one for subsequent service—or that any of the persons concerned will be compelled to surrender his present pension rights. All that the Bill provides in that regard is that each of the persons concerned may choose whether he will retain his present pension rights, in which event he will not benefit under the Bill, or as an alternative, surrender those rights. If he chooses to surrender his present rights and satisfies the conditions laid down in the Bill, then Section 13 of the Electricity Supply Board (Superannuation) Act, 1942, will apply to him. In short, that will mean in practice that his period of service with the former undertaker will be aggregated with that spent in the service of the board, the pension on retirement being calculated on his total aggregate service.

Does that apply outside of Dublin?

I do not think it could apply to any cases in Cork. The only cases concerned are those of former employees of the corporation at the Pigeon House and at the generating station of the Dublin United Tramways Company.

What about the former employees of the Cork Electric Tramway Company?

Were they employed by the board?

They were taken over by the board.

I am dealing with the cases of certain people who have pension rights, former employees of the Dublin Corporation who worked at the Pigeon House. The Pigeon House was taken over by the board and was closed down for some time. If the Pigeon House had been continued in operation these employees would have remained in the service of the board and carried their pension rights with them. In practice what happened was that the Pigeon House was closed down by the Electricity Supply Board who did not at that time consider that it would be necessary to continue the Pigeon House station in operation. Subsequently the Electricity Supply Board decided that it was necessary to re-open the Pigeon House and they re-employed the staff. The legal difficulty which has arisen was due to the closing down and the re-opening of the Pigeon House station. As the law stands they can get no pension in respect of their present service. We propose to give them the alternative of retaining their present pensions or coming into the general pension scheme applicable to all Electricity Supply Board employees, if they surrender their present pensions.

The only remaining feature of the Bill to which it is necessary to make reference is the provision to remedy a defect which has been revealed in connection with the prosecution of persons alleged to be guilty of the act of theft of electricity. For purely technical reasons, the board finds that it possesses no effectual means of prosecuting offences of this kind; and the Attorney-General, whose advise on the matter I have sought, considers that the defect should be remedied in the manner provided for in the Bill.

I do not think it is necessary for me to speak at any greater length at this stage. Each section of the Bill deals with a separate matter and, as is usual in Bills of this kind, if any Deputy wishes to raise a point in connection with any of the sections, he will probably find it more convenient to do so on the Committee Stage.

Has the Minister any objection to giving the date of the judgment and the name of the judge who delivered it? In so far as this Bill deals with persons whom the Electricity Supply Board has found it necessary to dismiss for disciplinary reasons, I enter no objection; but in so far as it deals with dismissals for other than disciplinary reasons, and when superannuation rights are now being interfered with or lessened, that is another matter. I would not enter as much objection to the taking away of a right which even these people have at the moment to go to court, as I would to a case such as that which came under the notice of some members of this Dáil some years ago. An official employed by Rathmines Urban District Council was concerned. I am not positively certain whether he was transferred to the Dublin Corporation, when the city boundary was being extended, and took up service with the corporation, subsequently being taken over by the Electricity Supply Board. For reasons best known to themselves, they found it possible to get done in some other way whatever particular duties he discharged, and they determined his service by dismissal, not for any disciplinary reason.

I will not give any further identification of the man than to say he was well known in musical circles in the city. The circumstances of his superannuation were brought before members of this House some years ago. They were very unjust. He was about 51 years of age when discharged and had something like 20 years' service. I do not remember the exact circumstances but, speaking from recollection, he got approximately one-third of his salary. In the normal course, if he had reached the age of 65 at that time, that was all he was entitled to; but the general policy that has been adopted in connection with these matters for the past half century, if not more, is that a person who has been employed by a local authority and is taken over by another local authority or, under statutory authority, by some other body, he gets some rights conferred upon him by statute which would increase the normal superannuation he would get. That is the first objection I see in this Bill. The position there is most unsatisfactory. Apparently, the Minister for Local Government and Public Health did not understand his responsibilities in connection with this matter.

The second point is that the taxed costs do not appear to be fair. Why not pay the whole of the costs? Does it follow that, when the taxed costs are discharged, the persons concerned will have to pay their solicitor or counsel some sum in excess of what they will be allowed by the Electricity Supply Board? I am sure the Minister, or some official in his Department who is advising him, must have had experience at some time or other of litigation where taxed costs are limited in certain cases to prescribed amounts; but it rarely happens that any person engaged in one of those cases escapes with just the taxed costs.

None of these cases has come for hearing at all.

Would it not have happened in this way? A person goes into the solicitor and sees him on several occasions. He is asked by the solicitor for certain information. Each time he goes in he incurs extra costs. The solicitor then takes counsel's opinion. I do not know by what measure of value the fees are fixed, but I do know that there is a very big difference between the sums charged by different counsel. There is a limit set by the taxing master in connection with that. The Minister knows very well that, as between a fee of £10 10s. and a fee of twenty guineas, there may be very considerable advantage in paying the twenty; but if the taxing master does not allow it, does it seem that the unfortunate man—whose rights now, although they are rights according to law, are taken away—is going to be at the loss of this amount? It is a small point but, when we are taking away certain rights which a man has according to law, we should discharge a liability of this kind.

In the case of the alteration in the valuation, I enter no objection whatever. In connection with the matter of superannuation, however, when we are taking away superannuation rights and interfering with people's rights, there should be very wise discretion, to make sure that we are not setting an unsavoury precedent. It is a very extraordinary thing that a matter of this kind should remain undiscovered for so many years. Perhaps the Minister has the date of the judgement now?

June of this year.

Surely it was long before that.

My recollection must be very bad, as I believe I heard of this case long before that.

Pardon me, it was in June of last year that the declaration was given by the High Court, it was in June of this year that there was an award of the sum.

I think the information about one particular case is sufficient to warrant the Minister's looking into that person's case. He had no hand, act or part in national affairs: some people would say that he belonged to a different order in the community. That does not disqualify him at least from equitable consideration being given to whatever claim he had.

Unfortunately, I missed the Minister's opening statement. I would like to ask whether Section 4 meets the Killarney position.

It meets it fully.

Mr. Lynch

Is it being applied retrospectively? Is it not only from the 1st April next?

Mr. Lynch

There is no redress for all the overpayment that the Killarney Council has paid in years past?

I presume not. The overpayment was to the Kerry County Council. I do not think so. This Bill does not provide for that. We are only rectifying the position so far as the Electricity Supply Board is concerned.

Mr. Lynch

We welcome even that.

In connection with Deputy Cosgrave's remarks, I do not think we are doing any injustice to anybody. In fact, out of a desire to avoid injustice, we are leaning in the opposite direction. Employees of a local authority under the law could not be dismissed without the consent of the Minister for Local Government and Public Health. Employees of the Dublin Corporation engaged in connection with the electricity supply were transferred to the Electricity Supply Board with all the rights they had as employees of a local authority. One of the rights which it has been held now was transferred with them was this right of not being dismissed without the consent of the Minister. About ten years ago, the Minister took legal advice in the matter and was assured that his formal prior consent to the dismissal of an employee by the Electricity Supply Board was not necessary and the Electricity Supply Board proceeded to act upon that legal advice.

This officer was dismissed from their service. I am quite satisfied myself that he was properly dismissed. The judge who heard his application used words which conveyed that he thought he was properly dismissed; but, on the purely legal point, that the formal consent of the Minister for Local Government to his dismissal had not been secured; he was held to have been illegally dismissed, and to have remained in the service of the board. As a result of that, he got an award amounting to a substantial sum, representing the wages he would have earned if he remained in the service of the board from the time he was dismissed up to the time of the judgement. We are letting that stand. He got his award and he is getting away with it. But, immediately he got the award, everybody who had been transferred from the service of the Dublin Corporation to the board, and who was retired because of old age or for any other cause, seemed to think that they also, on this legal point, could establish a claim. We are proposing to stop them from doing so, and we are providing that any legal costs that might have occurred up to the day this Bill was introduced in preparing submissions for the court, will be recouped. I think it will be held that we are acting fairly, in all the circumstances. We are providing that for the future the prior consent of the Minister to the dismissal of these employees will not be required, but such employees, when dismissed, can appeal to the Minister for Local Government against the dismissal.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage fixed for Wednesday, 4th November, 1942.
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