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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Feb 1943

Vol. 89 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 46—Primary Education.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim breise ná raghaidh thar £24,000 chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith inioctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh Márta, 1943, chun Bun-Oideachais maraon le hAoisliúntas Muinteóirí Scoile Náisiunta agus Deontas-i-gCabhair, etc.

That a supplementary sum, not exceeding £24,000, be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1943, for Primary Education, including National School Teachers' Superannuation and a Grant-in-Aid, etc.

Tá socair ag an Rialtas Bonus Éigeandála d'íoe le múinteoirí náisiúnta ón geéad lá d'Eanar, 1943, agus is chuige sin atá an t-airgead breise seo ag teastáil. Fearacht na stát-sheirbhíseach, ní híoctar an bonús seo ach leo siúd a bhfuil níos lugha ná £398 17s. de thuarastal bliana aca (i.e., £5 an tseachtain maille le bonus chostais bheatha a háirmhítear do réir an fhigiúir 185 mar chaighdeán chostais bheatha). Íoctar an bonus éigeandála le fir atá ina n-oidí do réir ráta £18 5s. sa mbliain, agus do réir £13 sa mbliain le mná atá ina n-oidí, ach baintear an tsuim chuibhe dhe sin i gcás ar bith a d'fhágfadh go mbeadh níos mó ná £389 17s. sa mbliain de thuarastal ag an oide.

I geás sgoltacha na gClochar agus na Mainistreach a híoctar do réir capaitíochta, agus nach n-íoctar tuarastail phearsanta leis na Bráithre ná leis na Mná Rialta, tá socair méadú cothrom a thabhairt dóibh trén oiread sin faoin gcéad a chur leis an Deontas Capaitíochta. An rud a déantar leis an ngnáth-oide tuatha sé a déanfar leis na congantóirí tuatha ins na sgoltacha seo, agus muirear ar an Vóta a bheas sa mbonus seo ar ball in áit é bhaint de na deontaisí a híoctar leis na Stiúrthóirí.

I would like to make some remarks in connection with certain convent schools where there is an industrial school and a national school together. This affects the employment of teachers in these schools. In respect of children committed to the industrial school, the capitation grant is made to the establishment to provide for the education of the children. In every industrial school there is a considerable number of children who do not benefit under that provision. These are the children who enter the school voluntarily with the consent of their parents or who are committed to the school at the instance of a local authority. Now, the convent to which these children would be sent gets nothing for them except what the local authority or the consenting parent is able to contribute towards the cost of maintenance. It has been the practice that these children would be sent to the national school attached to the convent the same as all the children from the neighbourhood. That is a very salutary thing to do. It is a great misfortune to a child if he has no family background, and the less you emphasise, in the impressionable years, that it is different from other children, the better for the child. Therefore, it seemed a very desirable thing that it would run into the national school with all the other children from the village, playing with them and partaking of their life.

So long as that arrangement was permitted, the numbers of these children from the industrial schools were taken into consideration for the purpose of determining the numbers on the school roll so as to fix the number of teachers who would be eligible to be employed. Recently, the Department of Education ordered that these convents and schools should take such people off the roll, and, in more than one case, that would mean a reduction of the number of people who could be employed. That would entail a position in which these children would have to be educated free of cost to the State. No fund is provided by the State out of which their education can be provided for. Now, it is technically true to say that, in one sense, these children are receiving education at the expense of the State, but the question arises as to whether these industrial or convent schools can meet their costs, and whether they will be compensated for that expense by this Vote. I understand that the Minister wants to have a review of the position. I am not raising this matter in any controversial sense. I am sure that the Minister is as anxious as I am to deal with this matter in a proper way, and I should be grateful to him if he could tell us whether he has found a way out of the difficulty, or, at least, let us know on what lines he intends to proceed to deal with this matter.

The position is that in industrial schools there are children for whom grants are paid and also children for whom no grants are paid— children who are sent by the local authority or go there voluntarily, and in respect of whom no grants are paid. A considerable amount of accounting would be required to keep an account of the amount of capitation grant in respect of each child when one takes into consideration the number of children who are in these institutions on a voluntary basis and the number who are sent there by the local authority. Again, it must be remembered that the schools in question are limited in the numbers they can take. It may happen that children, on behalf of whom grants have not been paid, may come in as grant-earning children. All these things make it very difficult from the accounting point of view. There is also the viewpoint—I do not know whether Deputy Dillon will agree with me on this or not—that if we are paying for these children in industrial schools, there would naturally arise the question as to whether we should pay for them again at ordinary national schools. Further, with regard to the type of children to whom the Deputy referred, undoubtedly, these children are in a particular class, and I am hopeful that we may be able to alleviate the position in favour of the schools to the extent of making special allowance with regard to that type of child. I can tell the Deputy that the matter is under consideration. No decision has been reached yet, but I shall be glad to let the Deputy know the result, as soon as a decision is arrived at.

May we hope that these "voluntary children" will be permitted to remain on the roll of the national schools?

I am hopeful of that, but I should not like the Deputy to take me as promising it.

We may reasonably hope for that?

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