Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 8 Apr 1943

Vol. 89 No. 14

Committee on Finance. - Vote 33—Gárda Síochána.

Mr. Boland

I move:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £1,430,394 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31adh lá de Mhárta, 1944, chun Tuarastail agus Costaisí an Ghárda Síochána (Uimh. 7 de 1925, Uimh. 10 de 1926 agus Uimh. 5 de 1937 agus Uimh 19 de 1941); agus chun Costaisí áirithe na gCaomhnóirí Aitiúla ar a n-áirmhítear Deontaisí-i-gCabhair (Uimh. 28 de 1939).

That a sum not exceeding £1,430,394, be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1944, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Gárda Síochána (No. 7 of 1925, No. 10 of 1926, No. 5 of 1937 and No. 19 of 1941); and for certain Expenses of the Local Security Force including Grants-in-Aid (No. 28 of 1939)."

The net Estimate is for £2,178,394— an increase of £104,979 on the amount provided for the year 1942-43. The provision made for the emergency bonus granted to nearly all the members of the Force is £129,346, so that but for this item there would actually have been a decrease of nearly £25,000 in the net estimate. The sub-heads which show substantial increases are— Salaries, Wages and Pay: there is an increase of £103,858 caused by the grant of the emergency bonus. The bonus is 7/- a week, and it is payable to all members whose total weekly remuneration does not exceed £7 13s. The civilian clerical staff at headquarters and the subordinate staff-cleaners, etc.—have also been granted a bonus involving an extra payment of £937. Sub-head B—Allowances: An increased boot allowance—from £2 to £2 15s. per annum—is responsible for an increase of £3,088 on this sub-head. Sub-head C—Subsistence Allowance: The rates of these allowances have been increased, with the result that an increase of £1,500 in the provision is necessary. Sub-head D—Locomotion Expenses: The increase here is £8,600. Of this amount, £8,100 is due to an increase in the rate of cycle allowance from £2 10s. to £4 per annum. Sub-head E—Clothing and Equipment: There is an increase of £25,879 arising from the fact that no provision was made in 1942-43 for frocks, trousers, caps, chevrons and badges, as the wear of these items of uniform had been extended.

The main decreases are: Sub-head H—Transport and Carriage: There is a fall in this sub-head of £16,680. No provision is made for replacement of motor transport, for which £13,285 was provided in 1942-43. Sub-head M— Compensation: There is a decrease of £3,000. The Estimate is based on the expenditure for the six months ended 30th September, 1942, but any estimate in this matter must be conjectural. Sub-head O—Local Security Force, Expenses: There is a decrease of £23,468 due to the fact that it is not possible to obtain supplies of uniform cloth.

Sub-head R—Appropriation in Aid— shows a reduction of £4,090. It is estimated that the repayments of sums advanced to officers to enable them to purchase cars for use on duty will be lower than in 1942-43 by £1,350 and that the payment from the Road Fund will be £2,000 less.

Mr. Hughes

May I ask whether any consideration has been given to the problem of retiring the 3,000 Gardaí who were originally recruited?

Mr. Boland

That is being kept in mind but I do not think that it will occur for about 10 years.

Mr. Hughes

I thought it would occur sooner than 10 years.

Mr. Boland

There is, generally, a wastage of about 100 a year and these places will be filled up.

General Mulcahy

Will the Minister say, in respect of the general position regarding larceny and robbery, whether any systematic attempt is being made to bring the whole personnel of the L.S.F. in the City of Dublin into active mental co-operation with the Gárda in regard both to reviewing the situation and helping to track down those engaged in these robberies and larcenies? There is a great opportunity there to get additional eyes and ears developed in a systematic way to the advantage of the Garda. If the general personnel of the L.S.F. were brought in completely, because of their contacts with the ordinary civilians, they would be able to develop a systematic attitude on the part of civilians in the city which would help the Garda a great deal. In present circumstances, the Gárdaí must be in a difficult position and they cannot get as close to the general situation as they would if they could use the L.S.F. and, through the L.S.F., have contact with the general public.

Mr. McMenamin

I raised the matter which has been referred to on a Supplementary Vote. I am not at all satisfied that full use is being made of the available material in dealing with the present position. One cannot be satisfied with the present condition of affairs. It is obvious that there is lack of co-ordination between the Gárda and the various auxiliary forces. These should be organised to help one another. I imagine that, if close contact were established between the Garda, the L.D.F. and the L.S.F. those responsible for offences which have become very common of late could be tracked down immediately. In fact, the machine would be so perfect that few people would risk the commission of such offences, knowing the probability of detection. There must be utter lack of co-ordination between those organisations when these offences are committed in the numbers in which they are being committed.

I think that some Minister will have to review the entire position of the Gárda. This House has passed much legislation which has been handed on to the Gárda for administration. The offences in question are not appropriate to the duties of a police force. The House will have to take stock of what it has been doing for the past 20 years and consider whether the Gardaí are to carry out the function for which they were originally formed or whether they are to deal with matters which should be dealt with by the officers of the Department to which these matters relate. In a small barrack, with three or four men and a sergeant, they are practically all kept running about discharging duties which are not police duties at all. One could enumerate a dozen examples of such duties. If an old age pensioner has to get a new book, it is the function of the Gárdaí to deliver it to him —perhaps at a distance of five or six miles. It is the function of the Gárdaí to see that there are no unlicensed bulls in any district. The Gárdaí are so preoccupied with duties of this kind that they have little time to attend to criminal work—the work for which they are primarily paid. It is high time that stock were taken of the entire position. It is quite useless to vote this huge sum of money if we do not co-ordinate all the available forces and forge them into a composite weapon to deal with the present wave of crime.

I do not want to over-emphasise the position. The Minister is as conscious of it as I am. If the position requires energetic action, we should not shirk that responsibility. It is opportune to do something more than has been done in the past. I am at a loss fully to appreciate the causes of the present position. If large numbers of our people had been engaged in the war and had accustomed themselves to bloodshed, one could more easily appreciate the position. But that is ruled out of our consideration. One is perplexed by the amount of crime in the country at present. One could put forward various reasons, but they might be unjust. It is for the Minister with all his officials at his disposal to arrive at a conclusion in the matter.

On a former occasion, I pleaded for what Deputy Mulcahy has just put forward with regard to the co-ordination of these auxiliary forces and the Guards. If some body of men put their heads together and arranged for their co-ordination, it would speedily bring relief to the Department and to the Guards, and would be a great source of assistance to the Minister in dealing with crime. At this time twelve months ago, I felt that I should have dealt more fully with this matter than I did, but the House generally sat down and nothing of any particular importance was said, so I thought I should join in the general atmosphere of complacency which prevailed. The events of the last 12 months make me feel remorse that, having arrived at certain conclusions with regard to events in the country, I did not deal with them more fully. However, I hope it is not too late to urge the Minister to take steps to adopt the suggestion which I put forward on an earlier occasion, and which has now been reinforced by Deputy Mulcahy. The Minister will get the assistance and support of every law-abiding citizen in any steps he takes to deal with the position.

Mr. Byrne

I rise for a moment to voice my protest against the inadequate compensation paid to the widows and dependents of members of the Guards who lose their lives in the discharge of their duty, and to ask the Minister if he can do something to improve the lot of such people who lose their bread-winners in the course of protecting the lives and the property of the public. The compensation paid is totally inadequate.

Mr. Boland

With regard to the points raised by Deputy Mulcahy in relation to the L.S.F., I mentioned, when introducing the main Estimate, that in Dublin—I did not give particulars at the time—there are L.S.F. patrols varying from 120 to 130 per night on a minimum of three nights weekly. In addition, selected men in each district, using a record of stolen bicycles, supplied by the Gárdaí, check up on bicycles in parking places at theatres, cinemas, etc., and in that way they have recovered a number of stolen bicycles. In a number of cases, very efficient police work has been done by the L.S.F. and that movement is on the increase. I think it has given good results.

General Mulcahy

It is understood by the whole of the L.S.F. that they are part of that scheme?

Mr. Boland

I think so. An effort is being made to spread it all over the country. As to the matter raised by Deputy McMenamin, there are two points of view about it. I have often thought over the matter and I believe that in the future the Government will be inclined to give more work to the Guards—perhaps to have more Guards and to provide more money for them and to have fewer inspectors. To carry out the amount of work necessary would mean multiplying the number of inspectors, and I think a movement in the other direction is more likely and more desirable. There is a very high standard amongst the Guards, and I think the object will be to give them more duties, with probably more pay and a greater number of Guards. A movement in that direction would be much more desirable than that they should be doing mere police work because in a large portion of the country there is very little ordinary crime. We could not gather statistics about crops and so on unless we had Guards to do it.

Mr. Byrne

The Minister made no comment on the point I put forward as to the inadequate compensation paid to the widows and dependents of Guards who lose their lives.

Mr. Boland

That is a matter over which I have no control whatever. I brought a Bill in here last year and perhaps took an unusual line in prescribing that the Minister for Justice should make awards, subject to the consent of the Minister for Finance. That was very definitely opposed in the House—so much so that I had to amend the Bill. I was asked what right I had to deny the Guards access to the courts and I was practically forced by the Opposition—and I understand that the Gárda Representative Body itself desired the arrangement, too—to allow the Guards free access to the courts. These awards of compensation, which I am inclined to think are rather on the low side were made by judges after hearing the cases, and I am not responsible for them. I think I said in reply to Deputy Fitzgerald-Kenney during the discussion on that Bill, that he could be satisfied that so far as any Minister for Justice was concerned, he would try to get as much compensation as he could for men under his control and that he could be relied on to stand up to the Minister for Finance; but the view of the House was that it was far better to leave the matter to be dealt with by the courts. Unless there is some amendment of the law, there is nothing I can do. In regard to the last case which came up, a case has been stated by the judge and the matter will be tried in the Supreme Court. That, however, is purely a matter for the courts to decide.

Mr. Byrne

I take it from the tone of the Minister's remarks that he is not satisfied with these awards.

Mr. Boland

It does not matter whether I am or not. The fact is that it is not a matter for me. When I tried to get the other arrangement accepted, it was turned down. It was said that it was a new principle and that the courts were the body to decide this matter. Whether I am satisfied or not does not arise. It is the law which counts now.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy must realise that there is one very important case sub judice at the moment, and it should not be made a matter of discussion in the House. In any case, the matter is not one for the Minister.

Vote put and agreed to.