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Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 1 Dec 1944

Vol. 95 No. 10

Committee on Finance. - Vote 74—Alleviation of Distress.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim, na raghaidh thar céad míle púnt, chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfaidh chun bheith iníoctha, i rith na bliana dar críoch an t-aonú lá triochad de Mhárta, míle naoi gcéad a cúig is dachad, chun Deontais-i-gCabhair do Chumann Croise Deirge na hÉireann chun Fóirithin ar Ghátar san Iodáil de dheascaibh Cogaidh.

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £100,000 be granted to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending 31st March, 1945, for a Grant-in-Aid to the Irish Red Cross Society for the alleviation of distress in Italy due to war.

The Dáil will remember the Pope's broadcast of the 1st September of this year in which His Holiness spoke of the deep misery into which vast areas of Italy had fallen, and reminded those countries which had ample resources, of their obligation not to hold them back from those who were starving. The Government has for a long time been endeavouring to secure the necessary facilities for the sending of relief in the way of foodstuffs to Italy, but, owing to the war conditions, without success, except in the case of one small and unimportant contribution.

The situation in Italy, is, in effect, to-day worse than it was at the time of the Holy Father's appeal. The very meagre official monthly rations were reduced for this month to a still more appallingly low level. Motor transport has been reduced by 90 per cent., with the result that a great many districts are at starvation point, with no butter, fats, oils, meat, sugar or milk, and inadequate supplies of grain. Food has become so expensive that rich and poor are selling their clothing and other possessions to buy it. The official ration does not provide for more than two meals per week, and does not include either sugar or oil. There are soup kitchens in Rome and in the other parts of Italy, but the distribution is entirely inadequate. Owing to the impossibility of sending them food, we inquired and learned from the Vatican that a money contribution would be of great assistance.

The Relief Organisation of the Vatican State, as perhaps many Deputies know, has been very active since the early days of the war. They purchased grain for Greece in Hungary, they sent clothing to the children in Finland, they purchased medicines in Switzerland for internment camps in Germany, they took charge of repatriate refugees in Sardinia, Sicily and Southern Italy, they set up food kitchens, medical aid, clothing and lodging depots, they made grants of money to different countries through the Apostolic Delegations.

Under the existing circumstances, it seems best for us, in making our contribution for the relief of Italian distress, to do so through this organisation which has proved so efficient and so ready to help wherever the need existed.

The proposal is that we make this sum of £100,000 available for the Irish Red Cross. The House will remember that about a year ago we gave the Red Cross a special sum of £100,000 for the relief of famine in India. At the same time, when I was introducing that Vote, I asked the House to make a credit of another £100,000 available to the Irish Red Cross. The intention was, however, that that sum would not be called upon unless it was urgently necessary. It was hoped, and I expressed the hope when speaking, that our people would by voluntary subscription give to the Irish Red Cross sufficient funds to enable it to carry out the deeds of mercy which it felt called upon to perform and that it would not be necessary, perhaps, to make any demand at all on the Treasury. The fact is that up to date the Red Cross has had contributions amounting only to about £100,000 and that sum would not be sufficient to cover the money that has already been spent and the commitments immediately ahead. If we were to suggest to them that they should draw on the previous credit to the sum of £100,000, instead of my coming to the House now, they would be eventually without any funds and it would be necessary to come to the House again to put them into funds because, as every Deputy is aware, conditions in many countries in Europe are extremely bad. I feel that on this occasion just as on the previous occasion I came to the House, this Vote from us here, who have in God's providence been saved from the terrible conditions in which other countries have been involved through the war, will be gladly supported by the various sections in the House.

I wish to express agreement with the proposal to spend through the Irish Red Cross £100,000 for the relief of distress in Italy. I take it that the Red Cross machinery is the best machinery for transferring this £100,000 to the Vatican Relief Fund and that there will be no expenses in connection with the transfer to be taken out of that amount. I presume also, though I should like to hear the Taoiseach on the matter, that the position in Italy as described by him is one with which our representative in Italy has been in personal touch and that the report we have received here of these conditions is a report from our representative in Italy. It would be useful if the Taoiseach gave us a little more information as to the kind of touch our representative in Italy has been able to have with the distressed areas, because we should like it to be understood that we wish to keep in close touch with the condition of affairs in Italy and to know in detail what the conditions there are so that it might be recognised through our representative there that we were keeping in close and sympathetic touch with the distressed people and that we were prepared to do anything we could to relieve their distress. I think we should also express agreement with the idea of disbursing this grant through the Vatican Relief Fund.

I just want to say that this Grant-in-Aid has the unanimous support of the Clann na Talmhan Party. I think it is very much needed and that it will have the approval of every fair-minded person. It is a generous action on the part of the Government and deserves full support.

The description of conditions in Italy as given to the House by the Taoiseach is heart-rending. I am sure our own people, who have gone through many trials and tribulations, will join in expressing sympathy with the Italian people on the privations and suffering which unfortunately are their lot to-day. This country of ours has many ties with Italy, mainly spiritual ties, and I think it is only right and proper that, in her hour of anguish and agony, Italy ought to feel that these spiritual ties are such as to compel us to go without question to the assistance of her people. Our own people here have their problems at home. No matter what these problems are or how acute they might be in an economic sense, I think no one will grudge extending a helping hand to those who are the victims of the conditions which have been so luridly described to us by the Taoiseach here this evening. I feel sure that the whole nation will join with this House in generously coming to the assistance of the Italian people and that the Estimate which the Taoiseach has introduced will have not only the warm approval of the House but the warm approval of every high-minded Irishman as well.

Having heard the Taoiseach, the Leader of the Fine Gael Party and the Leaders of other Parties express their sympathy with the Italian people, I wish also to express my deepest sympathy with them. They have their troubles and difficulties and they need every help and assistance possible. At the same time, I am inclined to think that I, as a Deputy, would be neglecting my duty if I did not stand up here and express my honest views on the Estimate that the Taoiseach has presented to the House. I say it is great to be charitable but, remember, charity begins at home. Last year we gave £100,000 for the relief of the Indian famine and this year we propose to give another £100,000 for the relief of distress in Italy. At home, at our own doors, in the City of Dublin, you have fathers and the heads of families marching from labour exchange to labour exchange in search of a day's work. You have hunger and starvation at your own door, but there is no question of providing £100,000 to see that these families are relieved from want. You have also the terrible T.B. problem. The youngest and the best of our people are being wiped out through the great scourge of T.B., but we have nothing like a proposal to spend £100,000 to deal with that problem. We extend our generosity to other countries who do not give a snap of their fingers for us, while you have our own people depending on doles and on votes for free boots for their children. You have agricultural workers compelled to exist on a wage of £2 per week. You have the best of our labouring men working in quarries and on building schemes for a miserable wage on which they themselves are unable to live in decency, much less bring up and rear a family in Christian decency. We have seen 150,000 of the cream of our manhood forced to emigrate simply because there were not sufficient funds at the disposal of the Government to keep these people at work. I am surprised at the Farmers' Party and the Labour Party—I am not surprised at the Fine Gael Party—because they did not say: "We will first look to ourselves and let every other country look to themselves." There is no man who has more sympathy than I have with those countries in distress, but I say that our own country is more in distress at the present time, because the best part of our farmers——

The Deputy should deal with the Vote. He is allowed to express his objections, but he cannot discuss social conditions in the country in connection with the Vote.

I am only pointing out that the money could have been put to better use at home.

And, therefore, discussing social problems. The Deputy should now confine himself to the Vote.

I am in agreement with the other Parties in the House who saw fit to throw in their lot with the Taoiseach, but I say that charity should begin at home. I have every sympathy with countries which are in distress, but I wish to dissociate myself from the sending of a ½d. out of this country while starvation, hunger, unemployment and poverty are rampant from the north to the south. The Fianna Fáil Party is handing out £100,000. I oppose it, and I say it is a disgrace to let £100,000 out of the country in view of our own unemployment position here.

It is very much to be regretted that this generous and charitable gesture on the part of the Government of this country should be, I will not say spoiled, but in some way lessened by the speech to which we have just listened. It was a disgrace to this Parliament. The last speaker is a young man who has not had as much experience as most Deputies in this House.

I would not work for 5/- a week.

I do not want to raise anything controversial now. I did not intend to speak on this at all, but was brought to my feet by Deputy Flanagan's statement. I would ask Deputy Flanagan, who I feel must have at least some finer instincts, to remember that there is no comparison whatever between the distress in Italy and the distress in this country. Even the poorest of the poor here are far better off than those who are suffering in other countries as a result of the great war. Deputy Flanagan, as an intelligent man, if he reads the papers and makes himself acquainted with all the horrible facts of the tragedies on the Continent of Europe, must know that starvation and misery exist there. People are dying of starvation in those countries. The Taoiseach has read out a very truthful report of the conditions prevailing in Italy at the present moment. It cannot be said that such conditions are operative here. Through the mercy of Providence, we have been spared the ravages of war. We have felt only the repercussions, and that only in a very minor way. Our people are able to survive. They have their difficulties but, thanks be to God, we have here nothing approaching the poverty and distress which exist in other countries. I regret that Deputy Flanagan has seen fit to make such a statement in regard to this generous gesture of ours. I think he will be in a minority of one. If a division is challenged, I hope no one will go into the Lobby with him.

I want to dissociate myself in every way from the speech made by Deputy Flanagan, and to voice my approval of this gesture by our Government. As one who given a great many years to the Labour movement in this country, I can assure Deputy Flanagan that there is no section in this country more ready to support an act of this kind than the poor, the masses of our people.

Deputy Mulcahy asked me if our representative was keeping in touch with conditions in Italy and was able to see things for himself. As Deputies are aware, we have two representatives, one to the Italian State and the other to the Vatican. In regard to this particular matter, we have been in touch more immediately and definitely with our representative to the Vatican State, and the information which I have given to the House is information which has been received from him.

Would the Taoiseach say if the representative to the Vatican has more facilities for getting around Italy than the representative to the Italian Government?

Well, I would not like to say straight off that he has more facilities for doing so. The position is that he is more in touch with what might be called the general situation of this relief organisation about which we have been speaking. In so far as its activities in Italy are concerned, he is in closer touch with them.

I am speaking of the actual conditions in Italy itself.

Those are conditions which he was in a position to verify for himself. We asked him for a statement of the conditions, and this is the information he has sent us.

With regard to the remarks of Deputy Flanagan, I have only to say that they are a complete misrepresentation of the situation in this country. Every Deputy in the House knows that The sum of £100,000, considering the needs, is really only a small sum, but it is a substantial sum taking our own resources into account. As I said at the start, we have very fortunately been saved from the horrors which accompany war waged in any country. Italy has been particularly badly struck, and completely disorganised. Her whole transport system and so on have been completely disorganised. She has difficulties which anybody who reads the papers from day to day can fully understand. With regard to our own country, everybody here knows that during the emergency period several million pounds a year have been spent in trying to come to the aid of our citizens who are in distress. The pretence that no attention has been paid either by the Government or by this House to the weaker sections of our community is one which anybody who wants to know the truth will have no difficulty in completely exploding.

Will you come down to Tullamore and see the hunger there?

I wish the Deputy would come down to decency.

Feed the people. They are hungry.

The Deputy ought to behave himself in this House anyhow.

I got a certain amount of education and I know how to behave.

Order. The Deputy has no right to interrupt. He was not interrupted.

The Deputy is behaving in this House as no member of this House has behaved since I have had any knowledge of it. For the good repute of this House, I think it is time that that sort of conduct ought to be reprobated by everybody.

The people who put us here come before the House.

Order. He is the Taoiseach no matter what Party he belongs to.

It is completely wrong to suggest that there has been no regard here for the weaker sections of our community during this emergency. The Estimates that are brought into the House prove quite the contrary. Millions have been spent. Unfortunately, it is true that, through lack of raw materials, a number of our industries have been unable to operate, and that a number of those who were engaged in those industries have gone to another country to earn their living. Some have gone without the absolute necessity for doing so.

Nobody ever went unless he had to go.

The Deputy must not interrupt. The Chair will not remind him again.

It is a fact that a number have gone through necessity. We understand that, but, taking it all in all, this country is to-day perhaps the most fortunate of all the nations on the globe.

Thanks to Providence, not Fianna Fáil.

The Deputy was warned that he was not to interrupt again. He will now withdraw from the House.

I apologise.

The Deputy will now withdraw from the House. These interruptions must cease.

I will not interrupt the Taoiseach again, Sir. I will ask you to reconsider that.

The Deputy will withdraw from the House.

I will ask the Chair to reconsider that.

No. The Deputy will now withdraw. The Deputy ignored a warning.

Out you go.

What are you talking about, you cur?

The Deputy must withdraw forthwith.

The very reason you are compelling me to leave is that you know I am going to give the Minister for Justice the works in the House this evening. That is the very reason you are compelling me to go—because you know I have something for the Taoiseach to-night.

I am not a thought reader. I did not know what the intentions of the Deputy were.

Certain Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party tried to get me put out the first opportunity they got.

The Deputy must now withdraw.

I do not think I should. I was sent here by 10,000 people.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-day.
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