On the adjournment Deputy Sheldon has given notice of his intention to raise the subject matter of Question 13 on to-day's Order Paper.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—County Donegal Sub-Post Office.
At Question Time I asked the Minister for Posts and Telegraphs if he would state what were the special considerations which led him to select the location of the new sub-post office in Carndonagh, County Donegal. His answer, to my mind, evaded the question and therefore I felt bound to press the matter further. That there were some special considerations taken into account I hope to demonstrate. That there were special considerations taken into account, no one in the town of Carndonagh has any doubt. The grounds they give are not the grounds upon which I propose to go. They go on what you might call rumour or what you might call boasting on the part of certain people before the appointment was made at all that they were bound to get it, because certain representations were made on their behalf. These are not the grounds upon which I propose to go.
I suggest that in any appointment of this type, three main considerations are bound to be considered. They are all of approximately equal importance, and the order in which I give them is not intended to convey any order of precedence. They are (1) the suitability of the applicant; (2) the suitability of the premises offered by the applicant; (3) the location of the premises offered by the applicant, having regard to the convenience of the public in general, and, in the case of a town, the business community. These three considerations, I think, can be demonstrated to be approximately equal. Assuming that any two of them have been met satisfactorily, and that the third one is not satisfactory, I think it will be then found that the whole position is unsatisfactory. For instance, if we assume that there are palatial and commodious premises situated in the geographical centre of the town concerned, but that the applicant was obviously uneducated or failing in some marked degree, then the fact that the applicant has palatial premises, and that they are centrally situated, should have very little bearing on the case. In the same way, I suggest that even where the applicant is eminently suitable and the premises are eminently suitable, if the premises are located in such a way that the public is inconvenienced, then such an applicant would not be suitable. I think it is fair to put the case in that way.
What I have to show then is that the Minister knew that the location was unsatisfactory in the main. The most lucid way of explaining the matter would be to begin with a slight historical outline in order to show that the Minister has been thoroughly warned as to the unsuitability of the location of the premises. On 4th December last I received a telephone message from Carndonagh, saying that it had become known there that a certain person had succeeded in his application for the sub-post office, and that the premises concerned were located in a very unsuitable place. They were, in fact, at the foot of an extremely steep hill. In order to get from the new post office to the business centre of Carndonagh, one has to ascend a very steep hill, and the business community was very perturbed at this.
On the following day, the 5th December, I came to Dublin. I tried at 5 o'clock to get in touch with the Minister by telephone, but I was told he was busy. The secretary suggested that I might make a minute of my observations and send them on to him. I pointed out to the secretary that the matter was very urgent. I gave him certain details and asked him to give them to the Minister. As well as that, I made the required minute and posted it to the Minister so that by the morning of the 6th December, assuming that the Post Office was able to transmit my letter to the G.P.O. overnight, the Minister was aware that there was perturbation in Carndonagh in regard to the location of these premises.
The next thing I am aware of is that a telegram was sent from a meeting of businessmen in Carndonagh asking the Minister to receive a deputation in regard to the matter. Later on, a reply was received that, as the appointment had been made—it was in fact made on the 6th December—he could see no useful purpose in a deputation coming so far—a very reasonable attitude. The next thing that happened was that the business community who were not satisfied sent a memorial to the Taoiseach which, I understand, was forwarded to the Minister. I suggest that all this shows very clearly that just about the time the official appointment was made the Minister was very well aware that it was not considered a suitable appointment in Carndonagh. I wrote to him on several occasions in reference to the matter and his replies were evasive. He refused to answer the particular matter which I raised, namely, the location of the office. He talked about the suitability of the person, which I was not questioning, about the suitability of the premises, which I was not questioning, and I think he finished by referring to disappointed applicants kicking up rows.
I should like to make it perfectly plain that I am not interested in any applicant. I think the Minister should be aware of that; I made it clear in my letter. I am looking at it from the point of view of the convenience of the public in Carndonagh. It is a matter of no moment to me what applicant is selected so long as the premises are centrally situated. I assume the Minister did not go to Carndonagh himself to interview the applicants, but I presume some competent official was sent up there for that purpose. I presume that official made a report. Since we are bound to assume that he was competent, I think it fair to assume also that the three considerations which I have mentioned would be borne in mind by that official in considering who was the most suitable applicant. He would be bound to tell the Minister what he thought of the applicant as a person, what he thought of the premises offered by the applicant and what he thought of the position of the premises in relation to the geographical centre of the town. I think it fair to assume that the Minister must be aware from his report that the particular premises which the Minister finally selected were not too well situated. I should like the Minister to say, did the official report given to him by his own official indicate any priority and did the official state which applicant he thought most suitable, taking the three considerations into account and not just the merits of the applicant alone? Was any recommendation made to him by his permanent staff at the Secretary's office? Was this recommendation in accordance with the Minister's final decision?
I suggest, Sir, that the Minister must have some extraordinary reason for selecting this peculiarly located office, and I want to know from the Minister what was that special reason. As I say, the people of Carndonagh are not in the slightest doubt as to what that special reason is, but I think it fair to give the Minister a chance of saying what was his special reason. Were the qualifications of the applicant the Minister picked so outstanding that the others were nowhere? Were the premises so superior to other premises offered that he could ignore the location? Is the Minister aware that the new premises are only half the size of the old premises, and will the Minister say that none of the other applicants had premises bigger than the new premises?
I do not wish to be taken as querying the capabilities of the successful applicant, but I think it only fair to point out that the new office has been in operation since the 2nd February and it is still being run by a staff from Lifford Post Office. I do not think that that shows any great capability on the part of the person selected by the Minister. Perhaps the Minister would inform us who is paying the staff now operating the post office in Carndonagh. Does the money come out of the emoluments of the person appointed, or is the staff being paid apart from these emoluments? How long is the present arrangement going to continue? I should say that there is no great indication of remarkable competence on the part of the person appointed. Is the Minister aware, on the other hand, that one other applicant had seven years' post office experience, that another had very extensive clerical experience of a type particularly suitable to the operation of a country post office? Now, as I say, I do not wish to be taken as suggesting that there was anything wrong with the person who was selected, but I do suggest that there were others who were at least equally suitable. I further suggest that they had equally commodious premises and that they had more satisfactory premises from the point of view of the convenience of the public.
Turning to the question of the expense of transferring business from the old post office to the new building, perhaps it is going a little outside the subject matter of the question, but I should like to know what, approximately, is the cost of the transfer, and if the Minister could give us any idea at all as to how much it would have cost if the Minister had selected, as he could have selected, premises very much nearer to the old post office. The appointment was made on the 6th December, but the work was not started, I think, until the 23rd January. These figures are subject to verification by the Minister, because my local informant may very well have nodded, but I think they are substantially accurate. Work was begun on the 23rd January and continued until the 23rd February, a period of one calendar month. In that time, six post office workers, linesmen, were employed.
As well as that, there were six unskilled labourers, which number dwindled later on to one or two. I suggest that that is very considerable expense. When you add to that the distance of the new post office from the old one, particularly at this time when the Minister is so carefully informing anyone who is looking for a new telephone that such things as lines are very difficult to get, I think there has been considerable unnecessary expense. In view of all I have said—I do not wish to exaggerate—I think I am being perfectly fair in suggesting to the Minister that he must have some special reason. I think I am being perfectly fair also in refusing to be satisfied with the sort of half-answer which the Minister gave me at question time.
In regard to the Carndonagh post office, I am willing to admit that a change to better premises now would mean great extra expense on the State, but what is the Minister's future policy going to be on this matter of appointments to post offices? Are we to have a copy of the American spoils system? There is in County Donegal an even more important post office than that in Carndonagh——
This hardly arises.
I am discussing the Minister's policy with regard to appointments to sub-post offices. If I am out of order I do not wish to press the matter.
I understand the Deputy wishes to ask a question.
Yes. I am asking the Minister to state what the policy will be with regard to future appointments, for instance, at Buncrana? I expect the Minister has received a memorial from the townspeople of Buncrana. I have received one which purports to be a copy of a memorial sent to the Minister.
Are we at liberty to discuss Buncrana?
I think Buncrana is beside the point. The question specially refers to Carndonagh, and I think the Deputy must confine himself to that.
I would be going too far in questioning the Minister's policy with regard to appointments?
I think so. This question is a very specific one and, in raising the matter on the Adjournment, the Deputy has to confine himself to the subject matter of the question.
Very well—not that it does not make me even more suspicious to find the Minister so touchy. Then I can only repeat briefly one or two questions which I should like the Minister to answer. The most important one is this: Was he aware before he made the appointment that the position was not quite satisfactory? Did the official report on the location of the various premises give any indication that the premises which the Minister had in fact selected were not satisfactory? Did the Minister act on the official recommendation, or was he swayed by some other person?
The Deputy is incorrect in stating that the appointment was made on 6th December. It was made on 30th November, before even Deputy Sheldon had made representations to me.
May I ask a question?
I think it would be better to wait until the Minister concludes. When the Minister has finished his statement, the Deputy may, if he wishes, put a question.
The appointment was made on 30th November. The person appointed was appointed on her qualifications; she was extremely suitable. It would be most undesirable for me to enter into the comparative qualifications of the other people, or to suggest any reasons why I did not appoint the other people. I do not think we could discuss the matter from that point of view. The candidate had sacrificed another business—had given up a licence which was attached to the premises, and had undertaken not to carry on a liquor trade there any more. My Department had put all the facts before me, and the decision was my sole responsibility. I decided to take her, in spite of the fact that very great personal friends of mine had made recommendations to me on behalf of other people. No one can suggest for a moment that politics entered into the appointment which was made. It is true that the premises are at the bottom of the hill. There is a fairly steep hill there. On the other hand, the premises are near the barracks and near a factory, and there is a very fair population on the other side, in the country parts, including a good many old age pensioners. I did not put the hill there.
But the Minister put the post office there.
Whether I put it at the top of the hill or at the bottom of the hill, people would have to go up or down. Having taken all the factors into consideration, I decided that this was the best appointment I could make.
In view of the Minister's statement that the appointment was made on 30th November, can the Minister say why, in reply to a letter of mine, he asked me how I came to know of the matter on 5th December, before the appointment was made?
That shook him.
I really forget the details of the thing, but on looking back now I know that the date on which I made the appointment was 30th November. Perhaps it had not been published. Appointments are not always published immediately they are made.
The Dáil adjourned at 9 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Friday, 2nd March, 1945.