Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 26 Apr 1945

Vol. 96 No. 24

Committee on Finance. - Vote 53—Forestry.

Minister for Lands (Mr. Moylan)

I move:—

That a sum not exceeding £198,651 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1946, for Salaries and Expenses in connection with Forestry (9 & 10 Geo. 5, c. 58, and No. 34 of 1928), including certain Grants-in-Aid.

In introducing this Estimate for the expenses of the forestry service for the present year, there is little of exceptional interest to report and but little definite hope of increased planting during the coming season. The past year was marked by continued activity in the sales of timber and firewood and by strenuous efforts to maintain the planting programme at the figure of 4,000 acres achieved, in the face of many difficulties, in the three preceding seasons. No fresh supplies of rabbit netting were procurable and the problem of protecting new plantations presented even greater obstacles than had been encountered before. The total area of planting last winter falls slightly short of 4,000 acres, which, in all the circumstances, is a creditable figure.

During the autumn, there were hopes of being able to procure large supplies of wire netting from Great Britain. These hopes were not fulfilled, and the extent of the planting programme for next winter, to which reference will be made later, will depend to a large extent upon the progress of negotiations which are going on at present for the release of supplies.

The difficulties experienced in previous years in procuring seed have tended to increase. Some seed has been obtained from Switzerland and some is promised from Spain, but whether arrangements can be made to have them shipped in time for sowing this season is not certain. Seed has been ordered from America and one small consignment has arrived. The bulk, however, has not been shipped and seems unlikely to arrive in time. To supplement the stocks of imported seed, and to avoid, if possible, any shortage, the collection of home-grown seed has been increased as much as possible, and if conditions in regard to import do not materially improve, much greater efforts to collect seed from stands of timber in this country must be made next winter.

The net estimate for the current year shows an increase of £93,061 as compared with the provision for the year just passed. The increase is due mainly to greater provision for the acquisition of land and the maintenance and development of areas already acquired. There are also smaller increases for the salaries and travelling expenses of the headquarters staff, due to proposed increases in the inspectorate.

The acquisition of land has been unusually difficult during the war period and the areas purchased have not been large enough to add materially to the reserve of land available for planting. In order to co-ordinate nursery and planting programmes, it is desirable to have in hands a reserve of land equal to at least three years' planting and it is advantageous to have a five-year reserve in hands, if at all possible. As it is hoped to expand the planting programme, as soon as conditions permit, to at least 10,000 acres per annum, an increase in the rate of acquisition is much to be desired.

With the resumption of activities by the Land Commission and a probable change in the attitude of owners of mountain grazings who, of late years, have been reluctant to dispose of their interest except at exorbitant prices, it is hoped to accelerate the rate of acquisition. The increased provision now asked for, together with the balance carried over in the Land Acquisition Fund from last year, should be sufficient to meet the cost of any payments that will fall to be made during the present financial year.

The census of the stocks of standing timber in the country has been completed and a summary of the results furnished to the Departments of Supplies and Industry and Commerce. A more detailed report has been prepared and should provide valuable data as to quantities, qualities and situation of stocks of timber remaining in the country, should circumstances render it impossible, at a future date, to resume imports of timber upon the pre-war scale. The services of the technical officers employed upon the census are now available for ordinary forestry work, and it is hoped to reduce to a minimum the delays in the inspection of timber proposed to be felled on private estates which resulted in past years from the abnormal number of felling notices received and the reduced number of officers available to deal with them.

The amounts required under the different sub-heads of the Vote are set out in the printed Estimates and it is proposed to deal in detail only with those items which show appreciable differences as compared with those in the Vote for 1944-45.

The increase under sub-head A— Salaries, Wages and Allowances, £26,024—is due, apart from normal increments and the increase in the cost-of-living bonus, to the appointment of three additional officers on the clerical staff in view of the expansion in the area of State forestry. There is an increase in the sub-head for travelling expenses and an increase in the sub-head—Acquisition of Land (Grant-in-Aid). The provision under the latter head has been increased from £10,000 to £25,000. It was explained last year that the falling-off in the acquisition of land was not due to any changes in policy but to temporary factors hindering the purchase of land used for rough mountain grazing and to the reduction in the activities of the Land Commission in taking over and dividing estates. An expected improvement in either or both these factors will enable the forestry division to proceed with acquisition at a rate better suited to the needs of an increased planting programme and to add to the reserve of lands in hands.

With regard to sub-head C (2)— Maintenance and Cultural Operations, £255,348—the provision required under this sub-head represents a substantial increase upon the amount voted last year. It is based upon a projected planting programme of 6,000 acres next winter, the completion of which depends upon the possibility of securing the necessary supplies.

During the year a large amount of road-making was done in the State forests to facilitate the extraction of mature timber and of poles from thinnings. These activities are being continued. Many plantations are due for thinning, and, though the material available is on the small side, there is a certain proportion fit for conversion into boxboards, etc.

The provision of £3,728 in sub-head C (3)—Timber Conversion—is in respect of the working of four fixed mills. Two of these, those at Dundrum, County Tipperary, and Cong, County Mayo, are worked continuously and are engaged in the cutting of timber for local requirements and the manufacture of fencing posts, gates, notice boards, etc. The two remaining mills are situated at Avondale, County Wicklow, and Ballyfarnon, County Roscommon, and are worked only intermittently.

There is provision for £1,000 in sub-head D—Grant for Afforestation Purposes. Despite the present difficulties in procuring plants and fencing materials, the increased grant for planting is meeting with a fair response and, accordingly, the provision under this sub-head has had to be increased by £400. In fact, the amount necessary to meet all the applications which had been received would exceed the sum of £1,000 in the Estimates, but a number of applications were received after the appointed date.

With regard to sub-head H—Appropriations-in-Aid, £63,140—a decrease of £16,590 is anticipated under this heading, mainly through a reduction in the quantity of timber available for sale in large lots. In fact, such a decrease was anticipated last year but did not eventuate as, owing to urgent demands received for timber required for commercial purposes, the Department was forced to put up for sale more lots than had been intended. This has reduced the amounts of mature timber still in the hands of the forestry division. On the other hand, a small increase is expected in the receipts from local sales of small lots of timber.

During the past year, about 18 large lots of timber, comprising 15,800 trees, were advertised and sold. Fifty-two smaller lots, comprising 10,323 trees, were advertised locally and sold, in addition to 27 lots, comprising 66,560 poles, which were sold by auction or private treaty.

The number of felling notices received last year showed a definite fall compared with the previous year but, on the other hand, breaches of the provisions of the Forestry Act are increasing. Excuse is frequently made that the trees felled were of no commercial value, or were required by the owner for his own use, as if these facts entitled the persons concerned to exemption from the provisions of the Act. This is not so. The position is that, except in a few unusual cases, specified in the Act, which only rarely occur, no person is entitled to cut down any trees without lodging a felling notice at the local Gárda station and giving the prescribed notice of 21 days.

The position as regards replanting operations to be carried out as a condition of the granting of felling licences is still difficult. Suitable plants are scarce and dear and rabbit netting, and indeed fencing wire of any kind, is practically unprocurable. Nevertheless, some persons have managed to comply with the terms of their licences. Many others are genuinely unable to do so, even with the assistance of the grant of £10 an acre which is now payable. In such cases the Department is willing to grant a reasonable extension of time, but this must not be taken to mean that the replanting condition will be waived. Every case is brought up regularly for review and, when conditions return to normal, those who fail to carry out replanting obligations will be prosecuted. Furthermore, failure to replant is a continuing offence and is not purged by payment of a fine. Prosecution may be repeated time after time until the replanting is satisfactorily carried out.

Mr. Hughes

If timber imports cannot be resumed immediately after the war, I believe that we will be faced with a very serious problem. If we have to rely on native supplies of timber, that may have very serious reactions on our timber supply position. I imagine that the reconstruction that will have to be faced after this war will be a world problem, and that we can hardly anticipate a favourable position so far as our necessary requirements are concerned. Thinking over the matter shows one clearly the necessity of paying much more attention to forestry. I think that forestry may be described as the Cinderella in the house of Agriculture. Notwithstanding what the Minister said, when replying on the Vote for the Department of Lands, I want to repeat that I think more co-ordination is needed between the Department of Agriculture and the Forestry Department. As a matter of fact, if we were to have an ideal synthesis of land usage I think this service should be controlled by the Department of Agriculture. The Minister himself mentioned the difficulty of acquiring hill land for afforestation purposes. The Forestry Department is merely interested in acquiring land for forestry purposes. We are all aware of the fact that there has been a complete change in the outlook on the various uses of land in other countries.

A good deal has been written on hill land for farming. I suppose the Minister has read something of what Sir George Stapledon has written on the hills of Wales where, on bare, barren hills, they now have good vegetation and that land is being used for the production of food. There is a problem here of utilising and developing such land for that purpose, or of deciding whether it should be used for afforestation purposes. Perhaps the Minister, when replying, will tell us what Department makes a decision on that matter in the national interest. We would like to know whether, if the forestry section is interested in the land, it makes the decision, or whether the decision is made by the Department of Agriculture. Where you have two interests involved there is almost certain to be a conflict. If the matter of giving a decision is not under the control of the Department of Agriculture, I am of opinion that there should be full co-operation and co-ordination between the two Departments concerned in order to ensure that land that might be more profitably used for the greater production of food should not be used for the production of timber.

I do not want to minimise the necessity of making use of every acre of land that it is possible to use for forestry purposes. In my opinion, there is room for using a good deal of our hill land—a problem which we have not tackled at all—by improving it for food production, such as mutton. There is a good deal of land that may be looked upon by the Forestry Department as not being suitable for forestry purposes. In other countries certain progress has been made in that respect.

A good deal of research has been carried out with regard to the utilisation of certain types of bogs. I wonder could the Minister tell us what amount of research we are doing here as to the possibility of introducing new methods of getting timber started on land that, in the past, was looked upon as being absolutely unsuitable for the purpose. I think that, in our varying circumstances, it is absolutely essential that we should spend a considerable sum of money on research. There is no specific provision in the Estimate for research work, but I imagine it could be combined with the ordinary activities of the Department. It is essential that research work should be carried out. It may be that it is, but that failures have occurred, and that there are some skeletons in the cupboard so far as the forestry section is concerned. I do not think there is anything wrong in that because you will never get anywhere without some failures. The Department should not be afraid of attempting research work because of the possibility of meeting with failures. We cannot hope to solve our problems so far as the utilisation of certain types of land is concerned— land that, in the past, was looked upon as being unsuitable for forestry purposes—unless we engage in research work. I read some time ago that the Scandinavian countries are now making use of land that, in the past, was looked upon as being unsuitable for forestry. They are getting over some of their difficulties by starting the young trees on the roots of the timber and are not sinking them in holes at all. Research work is absolutely essential if we are to get anywhere.

Over and over again we have been told in this House that, in order to grow commercial timber with success, the land must be fertile. I suppose that has to be appreciated. There are, however, certain types of rough bog lands that are capable of producing some sort of vegetation. If research work were carried out it is quite possible we might find that land, which was hitherto considered unsuitable for forestry purposes, could be used for the production of timber.

So far as private interests are concerned, I think that the increase in the grant from £4 to £10 per acre is to be welcomed, as well as the minimum reduction in the acreage from five acres to one acre. I think that the attention of the agricultural community generally has not been focussed sufficiently on that matter. I think that in the post-war period the Minister will have to make up his mind as to whether, in regard to this whole question of forestry, there should not be more publicity. Something should be done to get the county committees of agriculture interested in it. The average farmer is so busy in his ordinary avocation that he seldom finds time to look around and see if it is possible for him to plant one, two, or three acres of timber. By making use of the county committees of agriculture it might be possible to stimulate private interest in this matter. If that cannot be done, some other method will have to be employed. So far, the interest of the average farmer has not been stimulated in forestry in any way. I think it is necessary to get individual farmers all over the country interested in planting trees. The Minister has not given us a picture of that matter so far as our supplies at the moment are concerned. I wonder would he be able to tell us what percentage of our present native supplies is coming directly from State forests and how far our supplies at present are relying on private sources. Possibly if we had these figures they might give us a relative picture of the position between the State supplies and the individual supplies.

I think the Minister told us that a census of woodlands was being taken at present. I wonder has that census been completed and, if so, will the Minister be able to tell us the result of it. It should be very interesting. So far as the report is concerned, I think an attempt should be made to bring in an annual report. After all, a report covering a period of five years is very often out of date before you see the next report. I feel that there should not be any great difficulty in making it an annual report and, in that way, possibly focussing public attention on the matter of afforestation. As I said, I am not one of those who believe you can make a wonderful thing out of forestry; that forestry is more important than anything else. There is a good lot of land, even hill land, which could be converted for agricultural purposes and give greater production nationally than afforestation. For that reason I want to stress the point that we must have an authority that will decide definitely whether land should be used for forestry or whether it is suitable for agricultural purposes. If the Stapledon methods are applied to the land of this country, there is a lot of land which appears to be bare and barren and growing vegetation which has little or no nutritious value which could be converted into suitable grazing. For that reason, there is a certain conflict between the two interests and the Department of Agriculture ought to be the Department to determine the purpose for which land should be used.

Mr. Blowick

I think it is in the power of the Department to effect a fairly radical change in a state of things which has long existed in this country and which all of us, no matter what our political views may be, would like to see coming to an end, and that is the emigration of youth from this country. If this problem of afforestation were properly tackled it would have two wonderful effects. It would give immediate employment to the youth who would leave the country in the morning if facilities were granted to them. Secondly, it would leave us in a position to be fairly free and independent of many outside factors. A thing that was brought home to us very forcibly during this war was the shortage of timber, wood pulp and many other timber products. There is, particularly round the west coast, a vast stretch of waste land that is definitely unsuitable for any kind of farming or husbandry and which could be used for planting. It may be argued that such land is not suitable for timber, or will not produce a fair quantity of commercial timber. I cannot subscribe to that for this reason. I know definitely that on a lot of the mountain land I speak about, apart from the fact that it is useless for any purpose of farming, such as the last speaker suggested, there are to be seen the remains of stumps and roots of trees which must have grown to a pretty vast size when they were there. I do not think it can be suggested that the climate or other conditions have changed, since that would make that land unsuitable for planting and producing good quality commercial timber on a very big scale. In a portion of Connemara which was planted about 100 years ago I have seen spruce and many other kinds of timber of a fine size, and I have been told by timber experts that they are of the very best quality.

I heard a rumour, I should like the Minister to say whether it is true or not, that a Continental expert was over here some time ago and condemned planting there as being an absolute waste of time and money on the ground that the climate and the soil were not suitable for growing timber. I should like the Minister to say whether there is any truth in that rumour, because it is impossible to reconcile that with the fact that a short time ago excellent timber was grown all along the west coast on a belt of mountain land which is not worth 1/- per acre for sheep farming or any other purpose. Most of it would want very little drainage and there is sufficient soil on it. It would definitely be very beneficial to our climate if we could get this thing going. The employment that the planting would provide would mean a big thing for the youth of the country and for the rising generation, not to speak of the vast amount of work which would be created when the timber comes to maturity and can be dealt with at home here.

I ask the Minister to consider tackling this question of afforestation on a very big scale, principally for the purpose of absorbing the youth and putting them to work so as to stop the steady stream of emigration. If they are so useful to other countries such as England and America, it is a terrible thing that we cannot keep them at home and try to give them employment so that they can do something useful for the country during the best years of their life. Another effect would be that we would be independent of foreign supplies. There will be other wars in the future. This will not be the last war by any means, while human nature remains as it is, and we will be caught in other emergencies. This would stop one gap and provide one useful source of supply of many timber products.

Mr. Everett

Each year I have complained to the Minister of the low wages paid by the Department to men engaged on this work of national importance. While I congratulate the Minister upon making some effort in this Estimate, to increase forestry work throughout the country, I regret that the Department are not treating the men engaged on that work as a Government Department should treat men who are engaged in an important service. The foremen on this work are men who have to undergo a course of education. These men are unestablished and are paid small wages and, after six months, if they become ill after being out in all classes of weather, they are left to depend upon national insurance benefit of 15/- per week. I maintain that these men should be established because they will be a great asset to this country in post-war days. We should try to repay them for taking an interest in forestry. We should put them on the established list and give them the same status as civil servants. Some of them, to my own knowledge, often work from 18 to 19 hours per day. It is no exaggeration to say that. These men have to work many hours. They have to make out the forestry programme for the workers, possibly a year in advance. They have to take charge of all accounts and pay the wages of all the workers. They are responsible for the selling of the firewood and for sending returns to the Department. There is no leaving off at 5 o'clock for these men.

Notwithstanding their heavy duties, they are unestablished and there is no hope of security for them in their employment. I have known a number of them to leave their work here and go across to England. The English people were delighted to accept these experienced men and they are employed there to-day. We have young men in this country trained in the forestry service and one would think that we would avail of the services of these qualified men, but the fact is that they are not given employment here. They find employment in Scotland, Wales and England under the Forestry Department there. We had to educate them here and we gave them their degrees, but yet we cannot find work for them. I suggest we will require the services, in the post-war period, of every man with a knowledge of forestry. It was a lucky thing that we had a Forestry Department in this country during the past 25 years. If forestry had not been encouraged, what would have become of the country during the past three years? Our forests have been supplying firewood to the people of the cities and towns, helping them over the period when only native fuel was available.

As regards unskilled labour, whatever may be the motive in the Forestry Department, the workers are paid less than the rate given to agricultural labourers. These men are out working under all sorts of weather conditions and they have not the same privileges as the farm workers. I will give the House just one example, and I am sure the Minister will not approve of it. An experienced sawyer has the magnificent wage of 35/- a week. The Minister for Local Government has promised to bring in a Bill to give pensions to men who have given service to public authorities, such as county councils and urban councils. The Forestry Department has decided not to grant pensions even to men who have given 25 and 27 years' service in forestry work.

I put a question to the Minister some time ago and he said it was not the intention of his Department to do anything in that direction. There is no co-operation between the various Departments with reference to pensions for workers. The Local Government Department will grant pensions, but the workers in the Forestry Department who do not receive as high a wage as municipal workers will not be granted pensions. There are many men in the Forestry Department who were doing forestry work previous to the establishment of this State. These men are put on the scrap heap. There are some who could not get an old age pension on the ground that they had received £39 in the previous year. Pending the receipt of a pension, the home assistance authorities had to come to the rescue. That is poor encouragement for men who might be anxious to undertake forestry work. In the near future there may not be restrictions on men leaving the country and you will not get the younger men to take an interest in forestry, such as, for instance, was taken by the young men of 20 years ago, unless you make their employment attractive.

If, as we are told, we have only two years' supply of timber in the country, commercial and otherwise, should we not become active to increase our supplies? Should we not take more land and employ a larger number of men in the rural areas? One excuse given by the Department is that they are unable to get wire for fences. I suggest you can get over the difficulty of the fencing. You can get your seeds from Lisbon or other directions, plant your forests and have all the preparatory work carried out, and by the time the young trees come up you will have plenty of material for fencing. If you have not the wire for fencing at the moment you have many capable men prepared to erect sod fences, such as were good enough 20 or 30 years ago, and, in that way, I believe we could do without wire fencing for many years to come.

I heard complaints here yesterday about migrants being brought from various parts of the country and given holdings. If they were living, as I am, in an area surrounded by woods, where the local people are unable to obtain a cart-load of timber, while lorry loads go to Dublin and other centres, they would have other grounds for complaint. Military lorries and vehicles belonging to manufacturers and businessmen in Dublin and elsewhere take away all the timber from County Wicklow, while the local people cannot get a cartload.

In the forestry plantations there is plenty of brushwood that would be of great benefit to local people, and to business people also. It is being burned instead of being sold. No doubt the forester has a good excuse for doing that. Often when permission is granted to people to purchase firewood, one or two may take the property of somebody else or do some damage. Instead of penalising all the people in the area, why not penalise the particular individuals concerned and prosecute them if necessary? It is unfair that the whole area should be penalised for the action of one or two. The brushwood that would be of great use to the people in the villages and small towns is being burned on the instructions of the Department.

Down in Rathnew and Newtown-mountkennedy the people are living near the woods and possibly some children may be found taking a few brambles. The Guards make themselves busy and they bring them up in court, where they are fined 5/- and in some cases 10/- for timber worth 6d. or 1/. People are told they must not go in on the land of a man who has 1,000 acres and thousands of trees. There are foreign gentlemen who came here and took over estates. They will not sell a tree to the local people and if the children take away a few brambles to light the fire they are prosecuted and threatened by the district justice that they will be sent to reformatory schools. How long is that state of affairs to continue? How long will the local people submit to it? They are unable to get any other fuel, yet they are prevented from purchasing timber there, while any amount of it can be sent to Dublin and other places.

If I were living in these areas and if I were without a fire I would consider self-preservation first of all and I would get a fire in spite of all the district justices. I would not see the people in the area without a fire. I had to go with others to one Englishman who has a big estate in my area. We had to humiliate ourselves in order to get five trees for the people during the Christmas season. The Department of Forestry refused local people, but facilitated the sending of timber to Dublin. Of course, Dublin is entitled to it and we would like to see the people of Dublin supplied with all they require, but we insist that we should get some consideration. Why not sell the brushwood in Newtownmountkennedy and Rathnew to the people in those areas? There are some persons there prepared to buy it and cut it up into small lots and supply it to those who require firing. I appeal to the Minister to make some concession to the men engaged in the Forestry Department, apart from the foremen, who I say should be established. These men have rendered national service to the community as a whole, but while the Government is receiving the controlled price for the timber from the Dublin Corporation and others, they are paying a starvation wage to the forestry workers.

The Minister may state that they only work so many hours. However, they have to work in all classes of weather; they often have to cycle five miles from their homes and then work another two or three miles up to the plantation. The whole time is counted against them and they must be in by 8 or 8.30 in the morning and work until dark. In many of the plantations, there are no shelters for the men. There may be some shelter in nurseries but they are often out in the rain and with wet clothes. If they are not able to put in over a half-day, they are paid only for a quarter-day. These are things which the Minister should take in hands himself and appeal to the Government about, apart from the stand-still Order. These men should be given exceptional treatment. They have rendered service to the nation and the least they expect from the Government is to be granted the same rights as are granted to other men engaged in work of national importance. A wage of 37/-, 38/- or 39/- maximum weekly is not a wage on which a man could maintain a family at the present time.

We have no criticism of the officials of the Department. We have to do business with them in connection with plantations in our county and there are very good relations between the officials and the staff. The workers realise that it is not the officials' fault, but that of the Government, in not paying a proper rate of wages. If we want these relations to continue and to get our younger people taking a greater interest in forestry work, changes must be made. That can only be done through the Minister pressing on the Minister for Finance or the Government to give him the same facilities as other Ministers are securing for men engaged in their work.

One Deputy suggested that we should link up the Forestry Department with the Department of Agriculture. I would be against that. I would keep the Forestry Department separate, as it is at present, as in that lies whatever hope we have of any greater work of reafforestation. That will only happen through one Department and not through having the work duplicated in the Department of Agriculture. Probably, the Deputy is not aware that, before any land can be taken for forestry, the Minister for Agriculture must be satisfied that it is not arable land suitable for agriculture. If he has in mind that, in the working of the two Departments, the Minister for Lands cannot acquire land for forestry if the Minister for Agriculture says it is arable land, why does he advocate that forestry should be given over to agriculture?

In conclusion, I again ask the Minister to remember that the forestry workers' wages are out of all proportion to the cost of the things that they must buy. I ask him to make some concession to those men and I hope he may be prepared, as well, to grant pensions in the case of the permanent staff, even if a special Bill is necessary for the purpose.

Mícheál Ó Cinnéide

Tá cúpla rud le rá agam ar an Meastachán so. Tá an fhorbairt so ar nós cuma liom leis an Rialtas agus bhí sé mar sin leis an Rialtas deireannach. Níl siad i ndáiríribh i dtaobh na ceiste seo ar chor ar bith, agus ní raibh an Rialtas deireannach i ndáiríribh ar an gceist chéanna ach an oiread. I am very much inclined to come round to the viewpoint of the late Mr. Mackey, who I thought at one time was a crank, and to the point of view of the late Deputy Dowdall, on the question of the neglect of forestry by this Government and the previous Government. This sub-Department is the Cinderella of every Government; any old thing at all is good enough and any old report at all will do.

I remember when there was a very long debate here on this Department and when certain Deputies from the Opposition and from this side of the House pointed to the experiments in France in forestry. The then Minister in charge of this Department said:—

"It is all right talking about France and comparing it with this country, but France depends for a lot of her fuel on her forests; consequently, it is very necessary to have big forestry undertakings in France."

This war has brought home forcibly to me and to everyone else how necessary were the forests and the want they filled in the lack of coal and, in certain areas, in the lack of turf, during the emergency. It behoves us at this late hour to take cognisance of the fact that our timber supplies have been depleted. I suggest that even the statistics at the Minister's command do not tell the full story and that, for every tree reported cut, there was another cut. The longer this war continues the more depleted will our timber stocks become.

We have all read again and again that, outside Iceland, we have less timber than any country in Europe. I was reading about Belgium in a little booklet issued to Deputies and other people. There is an immense population there and they cannot have golf courses or racecourses, but they make sure to provide an area for forestry, even though there are 730 people to the square mile. We are not doing anything like that; we are only tinkering with the problem. My county is, after Wicklow, probably the best afforested county in the 26. I respectfully suggest to Deputy Hilliard that there is very little forestry in County Meath at all, but the Department take the inspectors and everyone connected with it and put them into an adjoining county, away from their work altogether.

I have found that there is complete ignorance in the Department on this whole question. If you brought all the State officials of the Department down to a plantation and asked them to point out hard wood and soft wood, I suppose not one of them could do it. They are just there for the purpose of passing through the Civil Service and serving their period of time before going on for promotion. They are not a bit in earnest. Some of them in the office may be, but those at work out in the country have not even the courtesy to reply to a letter in which representations are made.

In our post-war planning, we should get down to facts and see that the Forestry Act of 1928 is enforced. Sub-section (2) of Section 28 gives the Minister, where trees are felled or a forest is cut away, to order the owner of the land to grow one or more trees, within 12 months. And yet someone told me there was no such period in that office, and that it might be five, ten or 20 years when the order would be given to the owner of the land —notwithstanding that sub-section. There is a wholesale evasion of that section of the Act, in Westmeath, at any rate. Acres of oaks have been felled to provide fuel for the people in the cities and towns and the Order to plant as many trees as are cut has been met in a way that was not intended in the Act. If 20 acres of trees were cut down in a particular place, the owner comes along and plants the same number in three acres. These trees will choke one another in five or six years, but the man has complied with the Act. If the Minister or the Department thinks that I am talking rubbish, I will give them details of cases all over the County Westmeath where this is happening and where the land is being used for rough grazing. The man in question may enclose a small area and buy a lot of trees from some nursery in Wicklow and plant them in that small area, any way at all. That complies with the Act. The sooner that is ended the better for the country.

I was glad to hear Deputy Blowick speaking about the West of Ireland. Experts from other countries have told us that trees cannot be grown above a certain altitude or in certain areas. Yet roots of substantial trees have been found in these places that have been grown, as Deputy Blowick said, within the last 100 years. The climate has not changed much in that time and it is time to call the game of these advisers. I remember reading articles on forestry in relation to North Scotland, where the ground is very barren, where the climate is very severe. Certain rough grasses were grown at first, followed by certain kinds of gorse, and so on, until they established a hold for certain spruces and larches. That could be done in the West and it would not have to be done in such a meticulous and careful way as it was done in Scotland. It would be well to send trained foresters to Scotland to see the practical work that has been done there. I think Deputy Everett mentioned the fact that some of our men have been taken from the Forestry Department and have got good employment on the other side. It would be no harm if they were to be taken back. It would be well to end the make-believe that I believe is carried on in the Forestry Department. I sincerely hope that in post-war planning Section 8 of the 1928 Forestry Act will be put into operation and, if necessary, that a more comprehensive Forestry Act will be introduced and that we will take a realistic view of the necessity of having good timber for our fuel requirements.

Mr. Brennan

Deputy Everett has already referred to points I have in mind in regard to this Vote, that is, the matter of the sale of brushwood and the sale of firewood in general. I am not quite sure whether or not I am in order in referring to the question of the sale of brushwood, inasmuch as the Order in regard to the sale of brushwood was not issued by the Forestry Department but by the Department of Supplies. I should like, in view of the statement made by Deputy Everett, that he should be aware of the fact that this brushwood had to be burned in the plantations where timber was being cut by the Forestry Department, I presume, to get it out of the way, because the particular Emergency Powers Order made it impossible for the people who were making a living out of the purchase and sale of that brushwood and who were providing the poorer classes in certain villages and towns in County Wicklow with cheap fuel. Because of that Order the people who purchased the firewood were deprived of a certain livelihood and the people to whom the firewood would be sold were prevented from receiving a cheap fuel. I appeal to the Minister, in order that there will be no waste of firewood at the present time, even brushwood, to approach the Department of Supplies to secure some relaxation of that Order.

As regards the sale of timber in general, which would include firewood of a certain diameter out into blocks —I think the maximum laid down is something in the nature of nine inches —I am not prepared to agree with my colleague, Deputy Everett, that that firewood is sent to Dublin by the Forestry Department. I agree that it may be sent but if the merchants in the towns adjacent to these forests, who have taken upon themselves responsibilities when they asked for a permit as fuel merchants, apply to the Forestry Department, I am sure the Forestry Department will give them all they require.

Mr. Everett

Only from certain plantations. Dublin is getting preferential treatment.

Mr. Brennan

I will not dispute the point with the Deputy but, on the face of it, I think if it is the case, it is an absurd position. In connection with the sale of timber in general, including commercial timber, suggestions have been made to me that certain timber merchants—I will call them master timber merchants to indicate the type of people I refer to— men who know their jobs and can compute the number of cubic feet of timber in a particular plantation to practically 5 of a cubic foot, having got cute in their jobs, when forwarding estimates to the Forestry Department for timber advertised for sale, in order to secure the timber have sent in estimates far above the valuation of the cubic content of timber within the particular plantation. Afterwards they go to the Forestry Department and say: "There are my returns. I made a mistake. There were only so many cubic feet of timber in the whole plantation," and, I am informed, they are recouped. I have tried to qualify that statement by saying that I was informed and I am certain, knowing the Minister as I do, that were he aware that that was happening, it would not happen again. I simply take advantage of this discussion to bring it to the Minister's notice.

I do not know whether it is true or not, but I assure the House that it has definitely been stated to me by at least two timber merchants that it has happened and that men could not secure a particular piece of plantation adjacent to them when they were entitled to their fair share of the allocation of timber being sold by the Department. The men themselves believe that it has happened, and I know for a fact that they employed an expert, formerly employed by the Department, to compute the amount of timber in a particular plantation in order to get it. They were prepared to offer, and did offer, a few pounds extra, but they did not get it. It was secured by another individual. I bring the matter to the Minister's notice because I am certain that he will take action, if action is to be taken in the matter. I hope I am wrong. It is hard to believe that such a thing is happening, but I simply bring to his notice that statement made to me by two responsible timber merchants, constituents of mine, and I think I am justified in doing so.

With regard to the wages of Forestry Department employees, I should like to see every man, skilled and unskilled, and particularly unskilled, receiving a living wage, and I think that the very nature of the work done by a man employed in the Forestry Department for a certain period places him more or less in the category of a semi-skilled worker. I maintain that such a man should receive at least the same wages as are paid to the average agricultural worker. I should like also to support Deputy Everett in his references to the foresters employed by the Department. We probably have in County Wicklow more men engaged on that work than any other county and we have also in Avondale a college, which, I presume, the Department hopes will provide training for young men in this type of work, men who will carry on this young industry, if I may so describe it, and which we hope to see flourishing in the post-war period.

Most of these young men have had a secondary education and, before securing their present positions, were compelled to pass a Civil Service examination, and taking into consideration the fact that we shall have to depend largely on both the practical and technical knowledge of these young men, their lot should be so secured as to make them satisfied. I make a special appeal to the Minister, in conjunction with Deputy Everett, to take the necessary steps to see that these individuals will become established officers and so give them an incentive to take that keen interest in their work which will be so necessary in the post-war period and, at the same time, put them in the position of being assured that, having given good national service, the country will show its appreciation by providing pensions for them in their old age.

Mr. Moylan

Like the debate on Lands, the debate on Forestry has followed the usual course. We get a number of ideas promulgated which have been exploded year after year. I am anxious for the development of forestry on as broad a scale and as quickly as possible, but when Deputies criticise the work done over the past 12 months by the Forestry Department, they apparently fail to grasp the fact that almost 4,000 acres have been planted, and properly planted, and that never until about 1934 was the amount of land planted reached by those concerned with forestry.

There is only one major difficulty in preventing an expansion of forestry in this country. There are temporary difficulties such as the securing of proper supplies of wire netting, etc., but the real difficulty in preventing any expansion of forestry is that we are unable to get sufficient land. In many areas of the country, where the land is reasonably suitable for forestry purposes, it is impossible to secure it because, the owners of it, or those who have rights over it, believe that it is much more profitable to them in the way of sheep-grazing than it would be in the amount they would get from the Department of Lands by way of purchase. We are hopeful that, with the coming of the post-war years, there will be a change of viewpoint in regard to the holding of these lands. If we could secure a good pool of land it would be possible for us to bring the annual planting from 4,000 acres up to 10,000 acres. Some Deputies talked glibly about planting 20,000 acres per year, but it is not possible, feasible or wise at any time, in my opinion, to increase the average planting above the amount of 10,000 acres, a figure which we can easily reach if it is possible for us to secure the land.

Deputy Hughes asked who makes a decision in regard to the land that is to be acquired for forestry, and if the Department of Agriculture were concerned in that. The Department of Lands and the Department of Forestry are interlocked, and a decision is always made in regard to lands in the process of being acquired as to whether they are capable of utilisation for agricultural purposes or whether they would be more suitable for forestry. Deputy Hughes seems to be obsessed, like Mr. Dick, with a King Charles's head. He is always quoting Sir George Stapledon as to what has been done in the hills and valleys of Wales. Macaulay predicted at one time that there would be a population of 30,000,000 in England, and that Ben Nevis would be cultivated to the top. He was wrong in both prophecies. I am sure that so far Sir George Stapledon has not quite succeeded in cultivating Ben Nevis to the top. Whether he has or not, it is amazing to me that with all this reclamation of land for agricultural purposes in England, there is also in England a tremendous programme indicated for post-war years in forestry development. You cannot have it both ways. If you are going to have land for forestry it must be taken from some other activity. Our idea is to try to secure every acre of land possible for the development of forestry. The only thing that would prevent the development of forestry is the possibility of not being able to secure land.

When Deputies, like Deputy Blowick and others, produce the ancient argument about the land they have seen with magnificent roots of trees on it, where forests must have flourished hundreds of years ago, they are taking no cognisance of climatic changes and soil changes, and when they criticise the opinions of various experts who, as a result of their knowledge and experience, express the opinion that timber will not grow in certain soils, under certain climatic conditions, one may ask to whom are we to go if we do not accept their viewpoint? Surely, if we do not accept the advice of the man who has made a life-long study of the soils requisite for forestry, we have no one else whose opinion is worth taking. Deputy Blowick suggests that if we carry on forestry at a fast rate we are going completely to solve the problem of unemployment in certain areas of the country. I wish we could find some swift and easy solution, like the development of forestry, for unemployment in the West.

Deputy Kennedy referred to the late Mr. John Mackey, and said that he is coming more and more to the point of view expressed by the late Mr. Mackey and the late Deputy Dowdall. Some of us never grow up. When, many years ago, I first read Mr. Mackey's book, I introduced Deputy Dowdall to the book, and this had peculiar results. I, too, knowing nothing of forestry, and being enthused for development of the country, took everything that Mr. Mackey said for granted. Mr. Mackey's contribution to forestry was that he made a great number of people think about it, but if one half of what Mr. Mackey said in his various books on forestry were based on fact, the best long-time investment that any private individual could make would be in forestry. Everybody knows that in this country you cannot do the things that Mr. Mackey advocated, and even if you did do them, you would be lucky to get 3 per cent. of the results that he foretold from them.

I think it was Deputy Everett who suggested that we might proceed at a faster rate if we ignored wire and put up the fences that we put up 30 years ago. I do not know what the conditions were in forestry 30 years ago, but I assume that rabbits were as numerous then as they are now. The position is that the ordinary fence is not a protection for young forests against rabbits. You must have wire. Otherwise, you cannot go on with forestry. Deputy Brennan has spoken of the manner in which the forestry section disposes of some of its woods. We cannot sell timber to any merchant who has not got a licence from the Department of Supplies. When we sell that timber to such a licensee, there is the obligation on us to sell it to him at the controlled price. If the Department could freely put up timber for sale by auction, it is possible that, in many cases, much higher prices could be secured, but we are bound by the regulated price, and we are bound to sell only to the man who has got a licence from the Department of Supplies. That regulation is a very necessary one. It is customary that the Forestry Department should try as far as possible, within these limitations, to give the timber to their customers, to men who have been engaged in the round timber trade and who were doing a good deal to help forestry in the country before the war situation came about. But nowadays, because there are profits in timber, because timber supplies have been cut off from us in a great measure from overseas, many other people who are not at all capable of handling the round timber trade have come into the trade. Therefore, so far as they can, the Forestry Department should deal with reputable dealers and firms who had been handling effectively the round timber trade in this country before the war.

The question of forestry labourers was raised by Deputy Everett. Here again the Forestry Department cannot take isolated action. Forestry labourers are paid very slightly less than agricultural labourers in the districts where they work. Whatever the agricultural rate is, the forestry rate is 1/- less per week. Deputies must remember that the forestry workers have a 48-hour week as against the agricultural labourers' 54-hour week.

With regard to the sales of timber to Dublin and Wicklow, I am rather shocked at Deputy Everett. Deputy Flanagan has had a very bad influence in this House. He makes idiotic threats about what he will do. I heard a speech at one time by the Governor of New Jersey who, when he was doing a most outrageous thing, said: "I am the law." Deputy Flanagan in regard to land wants to be the law. I do not like to see Deputy Flanagan leading decent Deputies like Deputy Everett by the nose. Deputy Everett said: "If I was without timber, whatever the district justice would say or the law would say, I would get it." Why should a responsible Deputy be trying to promote illegalities in this country? The only way we can help the people of this country is by the rule of law.

Deputy Everett knows that the Department of Supplies have had to make certain regulations for the disposal of firewood. He also knows that very few people in Wicklow were affected by them. He also knows that very many people in Wicklow thought they saw something for nothing. Are not these the facts? The stuff is being given at a very cheap rate. Wherever we have windfalls or brushwood or undergrowth, the local people always benefit by them. They get the stuff at a very cheap rate and, in many cases, at no rate at all. It is necessary now and again for the safety of the forests that brushwood and undergrowth shall be cleared immediately; that it shall be burned. It is much more essential that the safety of the forests shall be taken into consideration rather than the fact that a very few people might be accommodated with a small quantity of valueless brushwood. I am more satisfied with the Forestry section of the Department of Lands than I am with any other section. I think that the people in the Forestry section are really forestry-minded and very much in earnest about promoting forestry. I think that they know their job thoroughly and are doing their job thoroughly. If we can get Deputies to persuade their people to think better of forestry in this country, if we can get the 10,000 acres, there will be no difficulty about the planting of it.

Deputy Kennedy raised a point which is forgotten, that in many areas in this country that I know of, within the past five or six years people have had to travel 20 and 30 miles to cut their own turf; that the bogs will run out and possibly we may not be able to develop alternative sources of fuel. Deputy Kennedy pointed out that the French people depend almost entirely on the forests for fuel. We will be reduced at some stage to the point where we will need for fuel purposes alone a tremendous amount of growing timber, apart from commercial timber. I would urge Deputies everywhere to try to encourage among their people a belief in the development of forestry.

Mr. Everett

On a point of explanation. The place I referred to has no State plantation. The estate for the last five years has been owned by Englishmen who refuse to give a tree to the people in the area. Unfortunately, we have no Government plantations in that area. It was that estate I referred to when I said that I would not be without timber. These poor people see the timber passing their doors every day and children were prosecuted for taking brambles out of the demesne.

Mr. O'Donnell

Unfortunately I was not present during the debate and I should like to ask a question. There are two rivers in my area which are doing a great deal of injury as a result of the clay from the forestry station forming into silt. There are five or six farms between the forestry station and the place where another river joins the Suir. The owners of these lands are suffering a lot as a result of the silt which has been formed. I should like to know whether it is the business of the Minister's Department or the Department of Agriculture to clean these up. I will give the Minister details, and I am sure he will be very helpful, as he always is. I have visited the Department on half a dozen occasions and I have always found them very helpful.

Mr. Moylan

If the Deputy will communicate with me I will look into the matter.

Mr. O'Leary

The Minister referred to people who were in the business before the war as the only people who got permits. These people are not dealing in timber at all now, because the controlled price of 2/- per cwt. does not pay them to cut down the timber and sell it in small lots. In Enniscorthy we can get no timber. I saw timber wagons being loaded on a Sunday out of a certain wood and brought to Dublin, while the poor people in Enniscorthy cannot get any timber, although the town is surrounded by woods. Owing to the bad turf they are getting, the poor people are cursing both of the Departments concerned owing to the hardships they are undergoing.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputies seem to be making speeches instead of asking questions.

Vote put and agreed to.