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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1945

Vol. 97 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 47—Secondary Education.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £402,490 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar críoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1946, chun Meán-Oideachais, maraon le Deontas Tuarastal na Múinteoirí, Deontas Ceanntsraithe, Breis-Thuarastal do Mhúinteoirí Meán-Scoile, agus Deontas do Chiste Pinsin na Meán-Mhúinteoirí.

That a sum not exceeding £402.490 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1946, for Secondary Education, including the Teachers' Salaries Grant, Capitation Grant, Incremental Salary to Secondary School Teachers and Grant to the Secondary Teachers' Pension Fund.

I beg to move the motion standing in my name:—

That the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration.

I do so for the purpose of asking the Minister if he will give us some information as to what the position is with regard to the recruiting of secondary school teachers, and their future. Let us, compare the salary position of secondary teachers here with the salary position in England at the moment. The starting salary of the secondary school teachers here is about £150; the present starting salary in Great Britain is £350; so that on that basis alone I have heard it said that it will be impossible to get lay secondary school teachers here in the future—in the immediate future, anyway. But as well as the uninviting position from the point of view of salary there are other difficulties that the secondary school teacher here has to face. Under the Ministerial regulations, there is quite a number of teachers who are actually employed but who are not getting crédit towards increment for the years they are working at the present time. I should like to ask the Minister how many secondary teachers there are at the present time, men and woman, who are not getting credit towards increment for their present years? As well as that, I understand there is a large number of secondary teachers who are not getting the basic salary, because of the way in which the quota system is applied by the Minister, and that only a certain number of secondary teachers in a school get the basic salary.

I ask the Minister whether anything has been done permanently and fixedly for the purpose of deciding what the qualifications of a secondary teacher are, whether they are fixed in any way and to what extent he is allowing new entrants to the profession who have not defined qualifications to receive basic salary. In regard to not getting basic salary and not getting their years of work allowed for increments and the standard of their salaries, secondary teachers are labouring under very great disabilities to-day and the class will not be recruited in the years that lie in front of us unless some change takes place. I should like the Minister to say what the position is and what his proposals are.

I take it that the questions which Deputy Mulcahy has put to me are all related to the future of secondary teachers as a profession. I have not got by me particulars regarding the number of secondary teachers who are not receiving increments. If it is considered necessary that I should give these particulars, I can either send them to the Deputy or make other arrangements.

Has the Minister any idea?

No, I could not say at the moment. I did not anticipate that I would be asked this question and I do not think the Deputy could expect me to be able to answer ad hoc, on a responsible occasion of this kind, every question he pops up to ask without notice.

The question of secondary teachers has been under consideration for some time past. The same conditions govern their remuneration as formerly. There has been no change, so far as I know. There has undoubtedly been this fact that certain cuts in the grants to secondary schools have been, either wholly or partially, given back to them, but as regards the salaries and increments of secondary teachers there has been no change. They have been granted the emergency bonus of 11/- for men, 9/- for women, applicable to other classes of teachers and other employees. As to qualifications, there is, as the Deputy knows, a registration council, and in order to become a registered secondary teacher a teacher has to comply with the regulations of the council. There is also, of course, a fixed quota of teachers who must be employed on the basis of the number of pupils in a school. According to the 1942-43 report, page 25, the number of teachers employed in secondary schools in the school year 1942-43 was 3,357.

Does that include permanent and temporary teachers?

I have some figures for 1943-44 which perhaps I may read. In that year, 3,386 secondary teachers were employed, 1,609 men and 1,777 women, of whom 1,420, or 42 per cent., were not registered—625 men and 795 women—and 1,966 registered—984 men and 982 women. Of the registered teachers, 864 were lay teachers, or 44 per cent., of whom 843 were definitively registered teachers. The number of teachers newly registered in the year ended 31st July, 1944, was 133. The total number of teachers whose names appear at present on the register is about 2,400, and approximately 82 per cent. of this number were teaching in secondary schools recognised by this Department in 1943-44. The number of teachers eligible for increments was 1,792—942 men and 850 women—of whom 831 were lay teachers; 1,724 teachers were in receipt of incremental salary — 929 men and 795 women — of whom 805 were lay teachers. Of these 1,724 teachers, 782 got special increments for honours degrees or equivalent and 473 got special increments for teaching through the medium of Irish. Of the 831 lay teachers who qualified for increments, 750 had the basic salary or more and 81 had less than the basic salary.

In the time at my disposal that is all the information I can give the Deputy, except to say that the general question of the scales of salary of secondary teachers will fall for consideration when the Government declares that the emergency conditions no longer pertain to the question of remuneration. The matter of their qualifications is being examined. We have been in communication with the schools and the inspectors are following a certain policy of trying to bring about gradually an improvement in the standard of the new entrants. These are examined specially and are under probation for a certain period. I have no further announcement to make at present about new qualifications for teachers.

What are the qualifications? Are there fixed qualifications at present?

Can the Minister say what they are?

In the case of registered teachers, a university degree and the higher diploma in education.

Is there any qualification with regard to years of service for registration?

Three years' service for registration.

Are persons being admitted and accepted as secondary teachers at present who have not an university degree, the higher diploma in education and three years' service?

They are not registered.

Are they being added to the teaching staff and are they covered by basic salary arrangements?

The Deputy must remember that a great many of our schools are under the management and control of religious orders. Let us take them as an illustration. We compel such a school or any other school to maintain a certain number of registered teachers, but, outside that, if they choose to keep teachers who have qualifications in particular subjects, part-time or whole-time teachers, it is a matter in which we do not interfere, as the regulations stand at present.

Would the Minister take into consideration the fairly small number of 81 teachers who have not got the basic salary, and about the same number of teachers who are not getting any recognition towards increment by their present years of service? In view of the number of teachers there are, and of the small number who are in that position, as well as the block which that position creates in the case of new entrants to the profession of secondary teachers, will the Minister review the regulations, and see if these anomalies cannot be eliminated, so that arrangements may be made to ensure that any teacher who is registered, and who has been teaching for a year, will get recognition towards his increment, and that any teacher who is teaching and has been accepted by the Minister as such will get the basic salary?

As regards the quota of registered teachers laid down in our regulations, which is based on the number of pupils, I think it provides fair teaching power and teaching personnel and that it compares favourably with the numbers provided elsewhere. That does not say that it may be exactly the same, but the matter can be looked into and improvements made, if possible. I do not want the Deputy or anyone else to assume that I have any feeling that we are not providing, under our existing regulations, a sufficient quota of teachers. Outside the registered teachers, there is the problem of teachers who are doing or have done their diplomas and are awaiting registration. They are in a special category. I think the Deputy will see that unless it is clear that fulltime employment is available for them and that the number of pupils which we would consider necessary is also available, his suggestion practically amounts to this, that he wishes us to provide additional teachers in addition to the quota we have already. We feel that the quota is, generally speaking, sufficient. As regards the teachers outside the quota of registered teachers, they are in a different category altogether.

I am not asking the Minister to provide additional teachers. What I am asking him to do is to recognise that teachers are there.

They are additional, and have their own contracts with the managers of schools. I fear that we do not come into it in the same way that we come into a contract between a registered teacher and a manager.

Motion put and negatived.

Vote put and agreed to.
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