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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 16 May 1945

Vol. 97 No. 5

Committee on Finance. - Vote 48—Technical Instruction.

Tairgim:—

Go ndeontar suim ná raghaidh thar £276,225 chun slánuithe na suime is gá chun íoctha an Mhuirir a thiocfas chun bheith iníoctha i rith na bliana dar eríoch an 31ú lá de Mhárta, 1946, chun íocaíocht fé na hAchta Oideachais Ghairme Beatha, 1930 go 1944 agus chun críoch eile i dtaobh Ceárd-Oideachais agus Oideachais Leanúnaigh.

That a sum not exceeding £276,225 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1946, for Payments under the Vocational Education Acts, 1930 to 1944, and for other purposes connected with Technical Instruction and Continuation Education.

I move that the Estimate be referred back for reconsideration. On that, there are two points which I want to put to the Minister. He has received a protest from certain areas in the country where there are Irish colleges against a scheme that he has apparently adopted for this year by which all persons going for the ceard teastas will be required, instead of going to Ring, Ballingeary, Carrowroe or any of the other colleges in the Gaeltacht districts, to go to Galway City to some kind of a special course that is being organised there. I want to ask the Minister whether he has changed his mind with regard to that. With a view to improving themselves in their knowledge of the Irish language, teachers have established the practice of going to particular districts year after year. One of the great advantages they derive from doing that is the contact they make with the old people and with those living in Irish-speaking homes. It means that as well as getting the course provided in the college, they are living completely in the atmosphere of the language during the period they spend attending the college. The proposal the Minister is now making seems to me to be an extraordinary one. All these people are to be brought to Galway City. They are not to be allowed to pursue their course in the Irish-speaking districts. Those who have been in the habit of going to Ring, Ballingeary, Carrowroe or to Rann na Feirste will have to go to Galway City. I should like to echo the complaint of various classes of teachers who have raised their voices about that.

There is another aspect of the ceard teastas that I would like to ask the Minister about, and that is whether he is paying any special attention to the number of persons who are being failed in the ceard teastas examination, persons who are either native speakers or who, during the greater part of their school careers, have been attending Irish-speaking schools. There are, as I understand it, a number of persons who have been educated through the medium of Irish, on the one hand, and a number of native Irish speakers on the other, who have been doing their professional course, and who, when they sat for the ceard teastas examination—some of them more than once—have failed in it and failed in a way which they did not understand themselves. Neither did the people associated with them in their classes or their teachers understand why they had failed. There must be something erratic in the conduct of the examination of the ceard teastas. I would ask the Minister whether he has had his attention called to that. If so, will he look into it and see what the situation is? The fact is that people are being failed for the ceard teastas and there is no obvious reason why they should be failed.

I have not heard any complaints, and I am told that no complaint has been heard in the office. It is quite possible that there have been fluctuations from year to year. If the position is that we have had no complaint, then it is very difficult for me to answer the Deputy's query. I can only say, with regard to this question in general, that in awarding these qualifications and in holding these examinations, an effort is being made to bring the contents of the courses and of the examinations into closer concord with the needs of the schools. Naturally, the standards that were prevalent 25 or 30 years ago may not hold to-day. I explained to the House, I think, that we were trying to get ahead with teaching through Irish in the vocational schools. I indicated that up to the present we had not the progress to show there that we had in the case of the primary and the secondary schools. We have the difficulty that we have teachers in the vocational schools who, although well qualified in other respects, are not perhaps sufficiently experienced in Irish to undertake instruction through the medium of that language. There may be some change. I shall look into the matter and see if there has been or if there have been any fluctuations. If I find that there have been any complaints, or changes in the rules, I shall communicate with the Deputy. As regards the holding of the course in Galway, a course for teachers has already been held in Galway City and it was found very satisfactory. A large number of teachers attend some of those courses and the question of providing suitable accommodation for them arises.

I confess that there is something in the point that, when a teacher is attending a course, there is no reason, unless it is considered absolutely necessary, why he should be taken completely away from the ordinary amenities and amusements he is accustomed to during the holiday period. Amongst the teachers themselves I think that there has been a feeling that they would like to be given a course in or near the larger centres. In Galway the courses have been held in University College, which means something. Good accommodation is available in the City of Galway, and it is not very far from the Gaeltacht, if not actually in the Gaeltacht itself. One has only to go two or three miles from Galway to be in an Irish-speaking district and to hear Irish freely spoken as the native language. I think that there are points in favour of Galway, though I can quite see that there are other considerations. If it were to appear that we were giving all our courses to one particular centre, catering for a particular dialect, other areas and other dialects might have a grievance. But the persons attending those courses — teachers — are experienced persons and I think that the dialect difficulty gives them no great trouble. Moreover, at their level of attainment it is not really a question of giving them a further knowledge of Irish; it is a question of teaching methods and of specialised instruction. It might be that, in a course at Galway, it would be possible to get teachers of music or some other subject whom they might like to have but who might not be available in some of the Irish-speaking districts in the more remote areas.

Is the Minister insisting on teachers having the ceard teastas attending Galway this year?

I do not think that it was ever intended they should be compelled. Students attend in the hope of getting the ceard teastas. If they are candidates for a position under a vocational education committee, they must have this qualification and it is to their advantage to go through the course. But it is not essential. Without casting any slur on the very high qualifications which some students — graduates in certain cases—who are going up for the ceard teastas may have, I think that, as a preparation for the kind of work they will have to do in the vocational schools, this course is valuable.

Teachers who attend this course are allowed certain grants and privileges. Are teachers who do not attend Galway for the ceard teastas course to be refused the privileges and grants they might otherwise get?

I should have to ask notice of that question. I do not think that it arises now. If it is a question of passing the examination at the end of the course, I may say that I know students myself who had to attend the course more than once and try for the examination more than once. If the period of years during which they have to get this qualification lapses, then the question of their continued recognition may arise. With regard to attendance at a particular course in a particular year, I cannot see why any disabilities should be imposed on teachers who do not choose to attend. We encourage them to go and I should not like to be placed in a position in which it could be suggested that we were not interested in having teachers go there. But I do not think that we compel them.

Is it the position that, at present, persons cannot get permanent employment under a vocational committee if they have not the ceard teastas?

The Minister should take into account cases where it is perfectly clear that the person, in addition to possessing the ordinary technical qualifications, is a native Irish speaker or has received his education in an Irish-speaking school. In these cases, it is perfectly clear that he has a linguistic foundation of Irish though he may not have the ceard teastas. Will the Minister consider whether a provisional certificate could not be given in such cases? There is a lack of standardisation. Doctors, rate-collectors and nurses have been appointed to Irish-speaking districts on condition that they qualify in three years under the Gaeltacht Order. But they have gone on for ten years without qualifying. They are firmly fixed in their positions and they are getting credit for their years of service for the purpose of pension. On the other hand, persons with a good linguistic knowledge of Irish and with the technical qualifications in the subjects they propose to teach are being refused appointments, in districts where their Irish would not be used at all, unless they pass an intricate examination in an examination atmosphere. The Minister will see that there is an injustice there. He ought to give a provisional certificate in certain of these cases, with the requirement that the persons concerned continue to study for the ceard teastas and secure it within two or three years.

The difficulty is that you can only judge whether persons are likely to be good teachers or not when they commence to teach. It is my duty to see that as few persons as possible who are not likely to become good teachers are allowed into the permanent service. It is better to keep them out than to allow them in and later have to terminate their employment. That point has to be kept in mind. That is why I said that we must have regard to the capacity of the person as a teacher. The ceard teastas is not a linguistic matter; it is a question of qualification for teaching.

That qualification is ascertained through teaching through Irish?

Yes. There is a test as well as the paper.

There is a linguistic test and there is a paper or a test in teaching. That whole test as I understand from the Minister is carried on in Irish?

The teacher is judged on the language on the one hand and on his teaching on the other hand. Is it indicated to a person who fails the ceard teastas examination that he failed in the language or failed in the technique of teaching, because it seems to me that there are cases of persons who have had a good foundation as native speakers, and a good foundation going through the schools, who have failed on the language test and not on the teaching test. It seems a hardship to leave teachers who have spent a number of years working up their technical courses in the position, when they face the ceard teastas examination, that they do not know whether they failed because they have not enough Irish on the one hand or sufficient teaching technique on the other. It seems rather strange that a person's capacity cannot be ascertained in some way or another in the three years' course which he spends in acquiring technical knowledge.

Motion put and declared defeated.

Vote put and agreed to.
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