I have given the Deputy particulars, but possibly he does not wish to pay any attention to them, of the amount of building done. He knows, or ought to know, that in the case of some of the large convent or other schools where this problem is serious, in the Marlborough Street parish and adjoining areas, there is the problem of providing accommodation for the children until the new schools are provided and there is the problem of providing sites for the new schools. Quite possibly the situation will only be dealt with by a system of decanting by which the constructional work and the school work will go on at the same time in the same premises. About half the schools throughout the country in which this problem exists are capitation convents and monasteries and in no two schools do we find the same problem. The difficulties vary according to the case.
Deputy Ua Donnchadha raised a question regarding men as sole teachers in mixed schools and it might be no harm to mention that normally a man teacher is not recognised as a principal in a school if the average does not exceed 35, but there are a number of cases where, although the average was more than 35 when the man was appointed, the position now, due to falling averages, is that the attendance is below that figure. If it does not fall below 30, a junior assistant mistress can be continued on the full junior assistant mistress salary and she may be continued under Rule 109 (2) even when the average falls below 30 at a reduced salary of £85 plus 5 per cent. per annum, if she was appointed to the school before January, 1921. If she were appointed after that date, she must be guaranteed £93 plus 5 per cent. per annum by the manager, of which the Department will pay a fixed sum of £65 per annum plus 5 per cent.
An outgoing woman teacher in a mixed school under a master may be replaced under Rule 109 (3) by a junior assistant mistress and paid at the rate of £85 plus 5 per cent. per annum, if the principal was appointed before January, 1921. The case in which a man teacher is the sole teacher arises therefore where either the manager refuses to give the guarantee required by the rule or the average is so small that two teachers would not be justified. In some of these cases local arrangements are made for instruction in needlework, etc., for girls. The Department usually tries, where a man is the only teacher, to arrange with the manager for his transfer to another school, but there is no rule to this effect, and in any event it is not always feasible. I think these are the main points which were raised in connection with primary education.
Deputy Byrne and other Deputies mentioned the question of school books. The fact that the provision this year is reduced does not mean that it would not have been increased if it were found necessary to increase it. It means that there is no change in the conditions upon which the grant is paid, and the explanation, therefore, of the reduction is that the amount required is estimated to be less than was previously needed.
Speaking of the large school question mentioned by Deputy Butler, may I say that in these large schools at Crumlin we have subdivisions within the same large building. They have been designed so that separate schools can be carried on. In Crumlin girls, I find there are seven schools and in Crumlin boys, four schools. Each school of these separate schools has its own principal teacher and staff and it is often the case that a teacher goes ahead and continues in the same class from the infants class during the whole school period. Of course, these large schools are a direct result of the situation to which the Deputy referred— that we had huge building schemes in Crumlin and the only possible way to deal with the situation was to provide accommodation in the quickest possible time. It was not provided as rapidly as it should have been, but eventually it was provided.
I am in entire agreement with the Deputy as to the necessity for giving preference to small schools, but until better arrangements are made—and I hope arrangements will be better in the future—to build the schools at the same time as the houses, and to have smaller schools than those we have built in the Crumlin and Drimnagh areas, for example, we shall only have to put up with the situation. The Department of Education is in touch with the Housing Department of the corporation about its future plans, and I hope that, with the collaboration of the ecclesiastical authorities, in any future schemes better arrangements will be made.
A number of Deputies referred to continuation education in rural areas and made certain criticisms of the vocational education system. It should be remembered that this branch is under the immediate control and administration of local committees. These committees are not appointed by me or my Department, but by the responsible authorities, that is to say the county or the urban councils. The members of these committees include farmers, businessmen, teachers, tradesmen and so on. They should be regarded as representing the views of the local community and of knowing the wishes of the parents of the young people for whom they provide education. If a committee carries out the statutory duties imposed upon it, the policy of my Department is to interfere as little as possible in its actions, and I am glad to be in a position to say that, in general, vocational education committees discharge their duties in a satisfactory manner. There are 38 of these committees. The system has been in operation for almost 15 years, and I think it is a matter for congratulation that, during that time, no serious difficulty has arisen between the Department of Education and any vocational education committee. This, I think, as I have said, is due to the fact that the committees on the whole take their responsibilities seriously, and try to give the people the best possible services for the money which they expend. Of course, Deputy Corry is not correct when he states that most of the cost of technical and vocational education comes from the ratepayers. It is true that the local rates bear a substantial portion of the cost, but that portion is about two-fifths of the total.
Reference has been made to the question of the training of apprentices and the provision of better facilities for technical education. It has been stated, and there is a good deal of truth in the observation, that this is not an industrial community. We have certain industries concentrated, generally, in the larger centres of population. We have also the position that only a small number of bodies engaged in industry have made definite arrangements with vocational education authorities regarding apprenticeship training. These include the Electricity Supply Board, the Great Southern Railways, the Dublin printing trade, and Guinness's, but outside these there are really no groups sufficiently representative and sufficiently interested in the training of their apprentices to take such joint action. I might say that the Irish motor traders have recently brought in a scheme by which portion of the apprenticeship period of apprentices to that trade throughout the whole country will be spent in the local vocational schools, but we have not nearly enough of this type of co-operation with industries outside. Industrial and commercial concerns do not specify their educational requirements. They do not go to the vocational education committee, or to the headmasters, and tell them what exactly they need, so that only a small proportion of the training given under the committees' schemes is formally associated with apprenticeship regulation. The Department is endeavouring to meet the difficulties of the situation and has issued its views in memorandum V.40 in which Deputies will find detailed instructions as to the methods which might be devised to deal with the situation.
I may say that, in all cases where educational requirements have been specified and guarantees of employment given, corresponding courses have been organised by vocational education committees. In all industrial centres the available school accommodation is heavily taxed by the attendances at both the pre-employment and post-employment courses. We have given particulars in the Department's annual reports from 1934 to 1938 of the training which is given in local technical schools to assist in the establishment of new industries and the maintenance of existing ones. This assistance includes the training of apprentices for such industries as boot-making in a number of schools, pottery, the woollen industry in various schools, tanneries, and so on. In some instances, where it was necessary to send workers out of the country for training such as in the case of aluminium works at Nenagh, this was done. Deputy Corry mentioned in particular the training of apprentices for the sugar factories. A well organised scheme for the training of apprentices for this industry was introduced in 1934 and has been in operation since. The Deputy, or anybody else interested, will find the particulars in pages 60-62 of the Department's report for the year 1933-34. As regard the Cobh Steel Mills, and other Cork industries, I have no doubt that it should be possible for those in charge of these industries to make arrangements with the local vocational education committees for the training of apprentices. It is part of the duty of these committees to do this, and as the two committees concerned, both the borough committee and the county committee, are efficient bodies, there should be no serious difficulty about making the necessary arrangements.
I mentioned in my opening statement that during the session 1943-44 765 students from the schools of the City of Dublin Vocational Education Committee were placed in employment in trades, dressmaking, factory work, catering and commercial occupations. The Cork City Technical Institute is also a very efficient body, and I find that a certain amount of employment has also been provided for its students. The most recent report of the committee that I have got states that it has always been part of their policy to try to provide employment for the pupils attending the schools. That has been the general policy with headmasters and chief executive officers. The Cork report for the academic year ending on the 31st August, 1944, dealing with student employment says:—
"During the year it is satisfactory to record that employment was obtained for 74 students of the school of commerce and domestic science in addition to those who secured posts by competetive examination. Students of the technical institute, to the number of 112, obtained posts during the same period. Of that number, the industrial courses provided an avenue of employment for 49 girls.
I would like to point out"—
says the chief executive officer—
"that particular care is taken by the principals to ensure that the posts offered to our students are suitable to their attainments, and that the work is not of a blind alley or non-progressive nature."
All that the principals can do is to assist the parents of the young people to secure suitable employment for them. They cannot, in the nature of things, guarantee such employment. I do not know why parents, whose children attend vocational schools, should expect to be guaranteed employment for them any more than the parents of students attending other educational institutions should expect it.
I mentioned that there has been a demand, as far as I can understand the trend of some Deputies' remarks, particularly the remarks made by farmers' representatives, that there should be an extension of continuation education in the rural areas. Deputy Everett also spoke on this question. I should like to remind Deputies again that the matter of making the best use of the teaching power at their disposal is entirely one for the local committees. I think that the committees should be guided by the experienced and trained opinion of their chief executive officers. At all events, it is only natural that there should be demands to have facilities spread out as much as possible in the particular areas and I am sure the executive officers try to do this. The fact is that the attendance at a great many of the vocational schools in the towns includes a large proportion of country pupils. That has to be taken into consideration. Deputy Cogan seemed to suggest that those who follow courses and, apparently, derive some benefit from them, leave the areas in which they attended the schools and get employment elsewhere. He seemed to find fault with this practice and also because those who would benefit, perhaps, more from the courses do not attend them. There is only one solution for that position. I do not know whether or not Deputies from rural areas fully realise the implications of that solution. It would seem to me that the solution is that these courses should be made compulsory.
I am not sure that I interpreted Deputy Murphy rightly, but I gathered that he felt that parents were dissatisfied with the courses and, in particular, with the commercial course. There has been a good deal of criticism regarding the commercial course. The fact is, as we are occasionally reminded, that parents have their rights and if parents obstinately refuse to send their children to particular courses, or even to send them to the schools at all, as has happened. what is to be done? If parents refuse to send their children to courses of which rural science is a part and prefer to have commercial courses; if they say to the headmaster, as they often do: "If you are not willing to provide a commercial course for my child, whom I intend to send into clerical employment, I shall have to send him, or her, to a private commercial school or to a school in some neighbouring town where they will get those facilities", what is to be the reply? The matter is not quite simple and the best way to look at it is from the point of view of what we would be likely to do ourselves if the children were our own. Only a certain proportion of the children can ultimately find a living on the land. We are all anxious that as many as possible should find a living on the land but we know that, in the ordinary household in the country, a strenuous effort is being made to prepare the children for employment which may not be obtainable locally. Employment may be only obtainable elsewhere and it is entirely for the local educational committees to distribute their courses and the teachers at their disposal so as to secure the best results. I do not see how the economic factor or the wishes of parents can be entirely ignored.
Deputy Blowick referred to the cost of the vocational schools while Deputy Giles spoke of "huge buildings" in County Meath. I have not seen any of those buildings in County Meath. I think that they exist only in the Deputy's imagination. Deputy Blowick is Leader of a Party and one would expect him, as one would expect Deputy Cogan, to make some investigation into this question before referring to it. Most Deputies, I think, understand the position and there has not been much reference to it. But there has been a certain amount of propaganda about the "expensive and elaborate buildings" which have been put up. I should like to ask Deputies to cast their minds back to the situation which existed before 1930. Where were technical classes, generally, being carried on then? Were they not being carried on in inadequate rooms and in very unsuitable places? After the passing of the Act, we set out to provide suitable accommodation—and not alone to provide the buildings but to equip them in such a manner that the education which is now being demanded, and which will be demanded, I venture to say, to a greater extent in the future in the urban areas, if not in all the rural areas, could be provided. Those buildings were not elaborate. They were simple and straightforward in design. It may have been that they were attractive from the outside. So far as cost was concerned, I can assure the House that they were not uneconomic. If their appearance would lead to the conclusion that we had been extravagant, that would be a wrong conclusion.
As a matter of fact, these schools were built at comparatively low cost, the reason being that the plans were carefully scrutinised in the Department and that everything possible was done to cut out what was not absolutely necessary. The lay-out was made as simple as possible and the design as ingenious as the joint powers of the architects, the chief executive officers and the Department's inspectors could make it. Taken as a whole, I think I can claim that the buildings have been economic. These classrooms had to be prepared for cookery, metalwork and woodwork, or all three, and they had to be specially equipped. The number of each class is much smaller than in a national school. Therefore, from the point of view of classroom equipment and accommodation, one cannot compare cost in the vocational school with that in the neighbouring national school, which may house the same number of pupils. When we take those factors into consideration, we must admit that the buildings were not as expensive as they were represented to be. My belief is that those committees which went ahead and built before the war will have reason to congratulate themselves.
Those committees—if there are any such—which had not made provision for continuation education in their areas, so as to give the maximum facilities within the limits of their resources, will find that they will have a heavy burden to bear in the future. I find that, in County Kilkenny, a school with a capacity of 50 was built at a cost of £1,854, or £37 per head. Other schools run to £50, £60 and even £70 per head, so that the limits in the small number of cases which I have quoted would be from £37 to £75. In some parts of the country building costs, of course, are much greater than in others or perhaps the committees and the executive officers have been more efficient. However, even the cost of the most costly school in the list, I think, will be a great deal short of the sum needed to provide a similar school in the post-war years. If we were to compare these schools with modern technical school buildings abroad, we would have to admit that they were of modest dimensions and of very temperate design. It may be that Deputies have been influenced by the fact that there is such a terrible contrast between these buildings, and the old buildings such as workhouses, in which students were formerly accommodated. The complaints are possibly due to this feeling of contrast and not to any careful appreciation of the circumstances and the necessity of providing ample, full and suitable accommodation in every way for technical and vocational school students.
I do not know that there are any other points which call for comment. As I said, if I were to go into the question of the school-leaving age and other matters, and deal with all the pros and cons it would take a very considerable time. As regards the question of school books, I may say, since I have not had an opportunity of explaining the position as regards primary school books to some of the Deputies who have come into the House since the last election, that there is a list of suitable books in the Department of Education and books which are considered by the inspectors to be suitable may be added to the list. We have been trying to reduce the list because in the case of Irish there were books there since the early days which might not now be considered as suitable as others which are available. There has naturally been a great improvement in that respect. It is the case where you have small classes that two classes may be taught at the same time by the teachers. That is the reason why inspectors feel strongly that books must be changed. If the third and fourth, and fifth and sixth classes are taught together—the third and fourth as one class, and the fifth and sixth as another—the inspectors do not think it right, and I agree with them, that a child who has been using a book this year, should use the same book next year. It should be possible for the teachers to make arrangements to buy the books back again from children. If it should happen that the book cannot be used by another child in the family, we have seen an arrangement in operation in very many schools by which the books are collected, particularly in an emergency period like this, and sold out again to other children.
Deputy Murphy referred to industrial schools. I have only to say that for very many years past, not alone managers of industrial schools but some of the social welfare organisations, the Catholic social organisations in particular, have been looking after boys and girls who leave industrial schools and go into employment. The trouble has been that it is difficult sometimes to maintain contact with boys who frequently change their place of residence and will not take the trouble to acquaint the headmaster of the school as to where they are going next. Of course it is often the case— and I think it is a very admirable feature of the work of the schools and reflects great credit on the managers —that as well as giving the children annual holidays in the way I have explained in my opening statement, the school is available generally to a boy or girl if he or she becomes unemployed and has no place to go to. These ex-pupils can generally go back to the school until such time as things improve for them. If Deputies would send me particulars of any individual cases which may be of quite an exceptional character we could look into the matter which would be better than having a somewhat fruitless discussion on the question in this House.
Deputy O Cléirigh referred to the question of inspectors. The inspectors are all practical men who have been teachers themselves. The vast majority of the primary school inspectors have been national school teachers and it would be an extraordinary thing if they were not fully aware of the difficulties of the teachers and did not make allowances for them. Apart from the fact that it is quite clearly laid down in the official instructions that allowance must be made for special difficulties which the teacher has to contend with, it would be surprising if it could be said that inspectors were discourteous or unfeeling in their treatment of teachers or in their dealings with them. There is no reason why, as I have said before in this House, teachers should have a complex about inspectors as some of them have. It is a very serious matter, no doubt, for a teacher, a serious ordeal, when the inspector makes a general inspection upon his work, but I think that the teacher ought to realise that the inspectors are there as friends and advisers more than as inspectors in the narrow sense of the word. They are not there to find fault. They are there to assist in every way possible and I think the great majority of the teachers realise that.
Deputy Halliden referred to the fact that no opening in the Civil Service seems to be available to primary school pupils. Well, of course, we have a system of secondary school scholarships in every part of the country and generally the more talented pupils will be sent forward for these examinations. Actually, however, the standard laid down for the writing assistants examination is the national school standard, but what happens is that pupils who have passed through the secondary schools, who have had a good secondary education and are within the age limits, compete for these posts and the ordinary national school pupil, no matter how well prepared or talented, can scarcely compete with a secondary school pupil who has done a good course.
Deputy Hughes referred to appointments that, I take it, occurred in County Carlow. I asked him to send me particulars of the cases and he has promised to do so. Lest I might not receive these particulars and lest the circumstances connected with the appointment made in October last by the County Carlow Vocational Education Committee, may be the particular matter that the Deputy has in mind, I should like to say that, while the qualifications normally required for a teacher of rural science are a university degree in agricultural science together with a certificate of suitability as teacher, some years ago when rural science was being introduced as a subject in vocational schools, the supply of university graduates in agriculture was insufficient to meet the demand for teachers and it was necessary to organise a special course of training for the purpose. This course was organised in consultation with the staff of the agricultural faculty in University College, Dublin. It lasted for two years, the second year's course being completed at the Albert College, Glasnevin. The course was confined to young men who already possessed some knowledge of agriculture. The man who was appointed to the post in County Carlow had spent a year at Ballyhaise Agricultural College, and another year at the Albert Agricultural College, before his admission to the course of training. After the completion of his training he had seven years' satisfactory experience as a teacher of rural science in a rural vocational school in County Kilkenny. I may say that I do not know the man personally. I am speaking purely as Minister in the matter. A majority of County Carlow Vocational Committee considered him to be the most suitable applicant to fill the vacancy on the staff for a rural science teacher in October last, and I do not feel that there is any reason why I should question the soundness of their decision.
The only reason I mention the matter now is lest it might be taken that some slight was intended—which I am sure was not the case—to the teacher, or that it might be suggested he had not the qualifications. He had the qualifications which were available at the time. The committee had the facts before them when they made the appointment and, in the circumstances, I did not feel that there was any reason why I should interfere. Deputy Hughes may be or may not be a member of the committee. I know that Deputy Everett is a member of the committee. I think it would be well if matters of a purely local character could be dealt with locally. We all hope that committees come to the right decision and appoint the best person, but so long as they appoint persons who are properly qualified, I do not think I should demand that I should come in and interfere in the way of telling them whom exactly they should appoint. It is my duty to see whether a candidate is qualified or not, and it is then up to the committee to appoint the one whom they consider to be the best.
