May I repeat the question I raised earlier? Am I to understand that the Minister was waiting for the corporation to make the necessary inquiries with regard to the differences that might lie as between stock and mortgages? If the Bill is now finally passed, that stage will have ceased. Due to the fact that a good deal of ambiguity has surrounded this Bill in its relations to the Dublin Corporation, I want to make it perfectly clear that the corporation did not seek this assistance, and that they had their own arrangements whereby more favourable terms would have been open to them to liquidate their liabilities. Since, however, the Bill was introduced, we naturally wanted to be assured that, because of circumstances over which we had no control, similar arrangements might be available to meet the situation with which the corporation was faced. I may appear to the Minister to be unduly persistent on this question, but as I said, this is not something of our making. I want to safeguard the corporation to the extent that while provision is now being made it will be open to them to apply for facilities in regard to the £780,000. Speaking on behalf of the corporation, I would ask that at least similar facilities should be granted in regard to the £300,000 covered by the mortgage loans which actually have been paid. I am asking that the corporation will not be placed in a position less favourable than that which would have accrued to them under their own arrangements.
Finance (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, 1945.—Fourth and Fifth Stages.
Deputy O'Sullivan has spoken in the way he has done because I take it all through the discussion the Minister was playing to help the Dublin Corporation to get more favourable terms than otherwise they thought they would get. I admit that we are left in a state of ambiguity as to what the Minister is actually going to do. Nevertheless, rightly or wrongly, I give him credit for that particular type of intention. Perhaps, there may be something to be said for Deputy O'Sullivan's restraint in discussing Dublin Corporation matters here. I think we have reached the point when we should not hesitate to discuss every single detail of financial matters because I think the more we bring them into the open and discuss them, the more we are likely to get an understanding on them, as well as of the approach of each one of us to them. It is essential that there should be a common understanding as to what our various approaches are to the question of getting capital for public business and paying for it, as well as in regard to the capital for investment in ordinary industrial and commercial business outside.
If we here are not prepared to go into the details of these things, then decisions are going to be taken by people in a secret way, without our knowing of them until we are presented with a fait accompli. We are told now that, as a result of the passing of this Bill, the capacity of the Dublin Corporation to get financial assistance is being worsened rather than assisted. I hope the Minister will be able to assure us that there is nothing in the fears expressed by Deputy O'Sullivan.
I do not think there is any Deputy who can say, with any degree of certainty, what interest charges the money advanced under this measure will carry. I think that on all stages of the Bill the Minister has emphasised the fact that the first charge which will have to be met is the 2½ per cent. on the moneys in the Post Office Savings Bank. If you add administrative charges plus other charges I can only arrive at the conclusion that any money advanced for the building of houses in future will be at 4 per cent. I should like the Minister at this stage, or in the Seanad, to give some clear indication as to what the interest charges will be. There is no use in going into all the details that have already been discussed in regard to the effects of interest charges on the financing of housing, especially its effect on the rents that would have to be charged. It is too big a question and one which I would prefer to discuss around the table. Deputy Norton referred to the difference in rents where interest charges would be 4 per cent. as against 2 per cent. On that point I would put a question to Deputy Norton. What would be the benefit to the tenant of having an interest rate of 2 per cent. if the cost of the house increased by £400? The house would then cost £1,000, and if £650 of that had to be financed by the council, even at 2 per cent. rate, that would make the rent very high. However, we cannot discuss that point.
I want to make it clear, in justice to all the parties concerned, including the Government, that in addition to interest charges, we have to consider other factors and until we do consider them and endeavour to reduce the cost of building—it can be reduced in many respects—we will make no real contribution to the housing problem. Again I would respectfully ask the Minister to let us know the rate of interest, whether it be 3½, 4 or 4¼ per cent., because at the moment no Deputy can say what the interest charges will be in regard to housing.
The Dublin Corporation last September paid off their mortgage loan of £300,000 or thereabouts. It was falling in for redemption and they paid it off. Out of the Local Loans Fund, at the moment, the Minister for Finance has power to issue local loans for almost any purpose but he had not the power to issue it purely for the redemption of stock and it was in order to put the Minister for Finance in such a position that this Bill was introduced. I want to say that it is ridiculous for Deputy Martin O'Sullivan to say that anything that has been done is putting the Dublin Corporation in a worse position to borrow. That is simply not true. If the Deputy makes that allegation, as he has done for the second time, I want to say that the Dublin Corporation, through the Finance Committee, proposed to borrow money in such a way and at such a rate of interest that I thought neither the interest of the ratepayers of Dublin nor of the general community was being served by them.
The Minister came around to my point of view after denying it.
Mr. Morrissey
There is nothing strange about that.
Would the Minister let us know what the corporation was going to do and tell us how he saved the country?
We will not go into that.