Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 22 Feb 1946

Vol. 99 No. 12

Private Deputies' Business. - Irish Language in the Gaeltacht: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:—

That the Dáil is of opinion that the Irish-speaking districts are dwindling, and that the use of the Irish language as a vernacular in these districts is declining, and that this position should be systematically examined and reported on so that remedies may be considered.— Risteárd Ua Maolchatha, Micheál Og McFadden).

An tAire Oideachais (Tomás Ó Deirg)

Is dóig liomsa go bhfuilimid uilig ar an tuairim chéanna leis an Teachta Ua Maolchatha, go mba cóir ceist na Gaeltachta do thaighdeadh agus d'fhiorsrú go cúramach. Ach ní dóigh liom go ndéanfadh sé aon mhaitheas dúinn na staitisticí agus mar sin do bhailiú, mar sílim go bhfuil cuid mhaith eolais againn, ní amháin ó na figiúirí atá againn ó Thuarascáil na Roinne Oideachais agus na tuarascáil eile atá le fáil, ach ó n-ár n-eolas féin. Tá an t-eolas san againn ó na daoine go bhfuil baint acu leis an nGaeltacht.

Mar gheall ar an nGaeltacht bheith dá cumhangú agus labhairt na Gaeilge ag trádh inti, tá fáthanna ann go bhfuil na Béarla ag dul i dtreise. Tá cúrsaí an tsaoil i gcoitcinne ag cur isteach ar mhuinntir na Gaeltachta. Tá oideachas maith acu anois agus tá páipéir nuaíochta ag teacht isteach chúca. Tá cuairteoirí ag teacht isteach sna ceanntracha san, tá an radió le cloisteáil, tá a lán teacht agus imeacht agus mar sin de. Ní háit iargcúlta í an Ghaeltacht feasta. Tá teacht agus imeacht ann i gcómhnaí agus mar sin brúann an Béarla isteach, agus brúifidh sé, is dóigh liom, inár n-eanneoin.

Tá rud eile, freisín, atá anathábhachtach. Má táimíd chun ár ndicheall a dhéanamh chun leigheas fháil ar an dtrádh atá ar siúl sa bhFíor-Ghaeltacht. Tá daoine údarásacha, dála dochtúirí agus gárdaí, agus ní hí an Ghaeilge is móa chleachtaid i gcúrsaí gnótha. Cleachtann siad a gcuid gnótha trí Béarla. Ní maith an socrú postanna oifigiúla do thúirt do dhaoine gan Gaeilge, ach ní héasca teacht ar réitheach faoi sin. Is deacair na daoine oiriúnacha d'fháil, agus níl aon neart air sin. Má bhíonn duine le Gaeilge riachtanach don bpost agus gan Gaeilgeoir ar fáil, caithfear an post a líonadh agus tugtar don duine is fearr é.

Mar gheall ar Scéim an Dá phúnt, gí gur thug sé cúonamh maith stopann sé ar ceithre bliana déag d'aois. Ní bhfaghann páiste thairis sin an dá phúnt, agus tá an scéal díreach mar ata sa nGalltacht. Níl aon ghreim ceart ar na daoine óga nuair a fhágann siad an scoil. Sin fhadhb mhór atá le réiteach.

Tá leas na Gaeilge san nGaeltacht ag brath ar staid na Gaeilge agus ar an urraim atá ag dul dí sa nGalltacht. Ní féidir an scéal do léiriú go fírinneach ma deantar deis na Gaeilge sa nGaeltacht do dheighilt amach ón dtreo ina bhfuil sé sa nGalltacht. Mara bhfuil an Ghaeilge ag dul ar aghaidh mar is ceart, ag leathnú amach agus ag dul i dtreise agus i neart sa chuid eile den tír, mara bhfuil cruthú ann go bhfuil sí faoi mhódh agus faoi ghradam ag an bpobal lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht, ní ceart, is dóigh liom, bheith ag súil go mbeidh dúil ag lucht na Gaeltachta, fiú amháin, intí mar budh chóir. Tá a fhios acu siúd, a bhfuil oideachas ortha, nach bhfuil iontu ach dorn beag daoine, na daoine is boichte sa tír ina gcómhnaí sna ceanntracha is iargcúlta, is fiaine agus is neamh-thorthúla sa tír. Isé an locht is mó a gheibhtear orthu go minic ná nach bhfuil siad ag déanamh gach uile iarracht chun iad féin agus a gclann a chur ar aghaidh sa tsaol. Ní thig linn, mar sin, bheith ag súil go mbeidh cuspóirí árda neamhshaolta acu, mar go dtí seo is i gcruatan agus in annró do mhair said.

Ní daoine gan loighic muintir na Gaeltachta, agus nuair a chíonn siad gur Béarla a labhras furmhór mór lucht maoine agus cumhachta agus údaráis sa tír, tagaid ar an dtuairin go bhfuil baint ag an dá rud le chéile agus ní fhéadfaimís aon mhilleán a chur orthu nuair a deireann siad leo féin gur ionnan eolas ar Bhéarla agus dul chun cinn san tsaol. Sin mar a bhí agus sin mar atá fós le cuid mhaith de na cainteoirí dúthcais, agus is amhlaidh a bhéadh an scéal linn féin. B'fhéidir nach bhfuil an scéal chomh dona ón taobh sin de is do bhí tríocha blian ó shoin, ach tá an Ghaeilge ag trádh gach uile bhliain le laghdú líon na nGaeilgeoirí féin. Tá líon na ndaoine agus líon na bpáistí scoile ag tuitim agus ag dul i laghad ar fud na tíre ar fad, taobh amuigh de na bailtí móra. Idir an dá linn, ó tháinig an Rialtas Gaelach insteach, tá rud eile ag cur isteach go mór ar chúrsaí na Gaeilge sa nGaeltacht. Tá na páipéirí nuaíochta na cuairteoirí agus na rudaí sin ag cur in a gcoinnibh ó lá go lá agus ag fáil treise in aghaidh an lae go minic.

Mar sin, ceapann a lán de na daoine sa nGaeltacht—agus, mar aduirt mé, ní fhéadaimís milleán a chur orthu— mar is ceist eacnoimíochta í go minic —gur úsáidí go mór an Béarla ná an Ghaeilge. Chíonn siad gur beag post sa tír seo, gan bacaint le tír eile, is féidir le duine a fháil gan eolas maith aige ar an mBéarla, agus tá dúil mhór aca ann dá réir. Tá siad uilig oilte ar í labhairt agus í a léamh agus a scríobhadh anois. Caithfear dúil sa nGaeilge níos mó ná dúil sa Bhéarla do mhúscailt iontú, agus béidh sé deacair fiú amháin an Ghaeltacht mar atá sí fé láthair ins na ceanntracha san a choinneáil. Is ionadh liomsa ag cuimhneamh dom ar na rudaí atá i gcoinnibh na Gaeilge, agus is forsaí móra iad—go bhfuilimid ag plé leo le fiche bliain anuas, go bhfuil an méid sin den Ghaeltacht againn fós, gí gur beag é i gcomparáid leis an méid a bhí ann leath-chéad bliain ó shoin. Sé an tuairim atá agamsa ar an gceist ná gur ceart dúinn na daoine do spreagadh agus dea-shampla a thaspáint go bhfuil meas againn uilig ar an nGaeilge. Má cheapaimidne go bhfuil sé de dhualgas orainn cuidiú léi, agus má táimíd uilig ag iarraidh cabhrú léi, beidh lucht na Gaeltachta ag leanúint don deaghshompla san.

Ní fheicimse gur gá dhúinn statistíochta níos cruinne ná iad san atá ar fáil againn a bhailiú chun go mbeidh sé ar ár gcumas ceist na Gaeltachta a phlé, agus í a phlé go hiomlán. Níl aon eolas againn faoi chionas a bailitear na figiúirí a chuireann an Brainse Staitistíocht amach ach tá na figiúirí ón Roinn Oideachais scrúdaithe agam. Taspánann siad go bhfuil líon na ndaltaí scoile ins na ceanntracha Fíor-Gaeltacha ag tuitim. Sílim go bhfuil na figiúirí a thug an Teachta Ua Maolchatha dúinn i gceart ón taobh sin, agus go bhféadaimís féin usáid a bhaint as na figiúirí sin. Acht nílim cinnte fiú amháin an labhrann na páistí scoile uilig an Ghaeilge sna scoileanna sin. Nuair áirítear scoil, mar scoil sa bFhíor-Ghaeltacht áirítear mar sin í maidir le buntaistí agus bónais toisc an chuid is mó de na páistí san scoil sin bheith ar a gcumas an Ghaeilge a labhairt níos fearr ná an Bhéarla. B'fhéidir mar sin nach bhfuil sé chomh láidir agus a ceapaimid ó na figiúirí sin. Mar sin fhéin, sílim gurb iad na figiúirí is fearr atá againn. Má théigheann cigirí ag fiosrú i dtaobh na bpáistí agus ag cur na bpáistí faoi scrúdú béil agus ag fáil cibé faisnéis is féidir féachaint an bhfuil an Ghaeilge á labhairt sa bhaile acu. Sna blianta idir 1933-34 agus 1943-44 bhí laghdú sa neán-tinareamh sna scoileanna sa bFhíor-Ghaeltacht. Bhí an laghdú san 10 fán gcéad i nGaillimh, 18 i Muigheo agus Tír Chonaill, 27 i gCorcaigh agus 40 i gCiarraighe.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Ins na scoileanna Meánacha?

Tomás Ó Deirig

Níhea, ins na bunsgoileanna. Sin iad na figiúirí i gcóir an mhean-tinnrímh agus taspánann sé go bhfuil an scéal go holc. Caithfimíd bheith ag smaoineadh gur thuit an meán-tinnreamh ar fud na tíre, agus na bailltí agus na cúl-áiteanna d'áirimh, níos mó ná a 11 fán gcéad san am chéanna. Tá mé cinnte go bhfuil tuitim cosúil leis an tuitim sin ins gach ceanntar, go mór mór ins na ceanntracha iargúlta; ach is léir go bhfuil an scéal i gContae Chiarraighe go han-dona. Le deich mbliana anuas bhí an tuitim ann, agus i gContae Ciarraighe tá sé níos measa ná áiteanna eile. Mura dteigheann na páistí ar scoil ní féidir linn greim d'fháil orthu, ach is féidir linn an méid seo a chur ós ár gcomhair mar chuspóir. Mura bhféadaimíd na Gaeilgeoirí sa nGaeltacht a choimead ar aon teangain amháin—agus sílim nach féidir an Bhéarla do choinneáil amach uatha—ba chóir dúinn an Ghaeilge do chothú agus do neartú sa gcuid eile den tír, sa slí go mbeidh an Ghalltacht dhá-theangach againn. Bhéarfadh sin níos mó cúnamh don Ghaeltacht mar beidh cruthú acu ansin go bhfuilimid i ndáiríribh agus nach ceist poiliticiúila í, ach ceist mhór náisiúnta. Caithfimid a chruthú dhóibh go bhfuilimid ghá cothú, ar bhealach nach mbéidh seans ar bith go nbuadhfadh an Ghaeilge orthú am ar bith.

Ní dóigh liom go mbraitheann athbheochaint na Gaeilge ar an nGaeltacht ar fad, agus nílim ar aon intinn leo siúd a abrann go bhfuil an Ghaeilge caillte don náisiún nó gur cúis éadóchais dúinn an teanga do bheith ag trádh san nGaeltacht. B'fhearr i bhfad gan an scéal bheith amhlaidh ach caithfimíd a thuigsint go bhfuil saol nua ar fad ann anois thar mar bhí 20 blian ó shoin agus tá an saol lasmuigh ag cur isteach ar an nGaeltacht faoi láthair le neart agus fuinne amh níos mó ná riamh. Ar an taobh eile den scéal tá an athbheochaint ag brath ar an nGalltacht chomh maith leis an nGaeltacht. Ní thig linn a rá go bhféadfadh lucht na Gaeltachta an teanga do shábháil, agus ní fhéadfaimís a rá nach bhféadfadh lucht na Galltachta í do tharrtháil uatha féin. Sna 20 blian so thart tá timpeall milliún páistí tar éis teacht amach as na scoltacha lena bheag nó a mhór á den Ghaeilge. Tá i bhfad Eireann níos mó Gaeilge aca i gcoitinne ná mar a bhí againne agus a fhios acu gurb í a dteanga náisiúnta í. Ach, faríor, is annamh a labhraid í tar éis an scoil d'fháil. Sílim go bhfuil an scéal maidir leis an nglún óg sa nGalltacht ar aon dul le cás an aois óig sa nGaeltacht. Tá an saol ag cur isteach orthu araon. Tá dúil acu sa mBéarla. Cad chuige nach mbéadh? Tá gach uile rud timpeall orthu sa Bhéarla, leabhra, páipéirí, scannáin, radió. Tá an Béarla ar fáil i ngach aon áit. Caithfear dul ag tóraíocht na Gaeilge.

Ní fheicimse, mar sin, gur ceist airgid nó ceist eacnamíochta ceist seo na Gaeilge. B'fhéidir go bhféadfadh an Rialtas níos mó a dhéanamh ar mhaithe leis an nGaeltacht, cur leis na gléasanna atá acu, nó feidhm níos éifeachtaí a bhaint as na cinn atá acu cheana. Má thig linn na gléasanna san d'fheabhsú, ba chóir é dhéanamh agus toradh ní b'fhearr do bhaint astu. Ach sa deireadh mara bhfuil dúil ag an bPobal sa cheist seo, mara bhfuil siad sásta a gcion féin a dhéanamh, ní fhéadfaidh an Rialtas mórán eile do dhéanamh. Caithfear an Pobal go ghríosadh. Tá an ghlún óg ag braith ar dhaoinibh eile, na daoine fásta, na daoine udarásacha a bhfuil baint aca leo, dea-shampla agus treórú a thabhairt dóibh, agus iad do mhealladh chun an Ghaeilge a labhairt mar ghnáth-theanga.

As I have said in Irish, we can all agree with Deputy Mulcahy that the position of the Irish-speaking districts should be systematically examined. In fact, the position is constantly under review by the Government. There is and has been a Cabinet Sub-Committee which deals from time to time with the co-ordination, for example, of services relating to the Gaeltacht, with the question of the Irish language in the administration, and any other matters where it seemed necessary that there should be co-operation between Government Departments on matters affecting the Gaeltacht area. There is no doubt, as the figures given by the Deputy, and which I have confirmed, show that the Irish-speaking districts are dwindling, and that the use of the Irish language as the vernacular is declining, but the rural population through the country, as the school attendance figures emphasise and bring forcibly before our minds, has been declining very much during the last ten or 15 years. There have not been the number of marriages that one would have expected. I do not know whether there has been any improvement in that respect recently.

There is also the fact that the people in the Gaeltacht are conscious of the fact that they are living in isolated, poor, barren districts, and that, for economic reasons, they may have to go outside. For that reason they will have an interest in the English language, and it will be impossible, I think, to keep them from knowing English, but we can have the position even if they do know English that I know obtains in Tir Chonaill: that even those who have to go across to England or Scotland to work for a living speak Irish among themselves, and that when they are at home, I think I am correct in saying they speak Irish and give a definite preference to the Irish language. It is their natural language. If occasion arises where they have to speak English in the course of their work outside the country, they speak it. In the Irish-speaking districts in Donegal, in spite of the decline in population which is there and which may be greater there than in other places, the reason being the decline in the rural population generally, it will be found, I think, that the Irish language is well established, and will, with the help of all our good friends in the North, please God, continue to hold its position.

The same is true of Connemara. The fall there has not been so great. The people of Dublin, the Coiste na bPáisde, Government schemes and so on have all helped Irish, in my opinion, in Connemara. The position of the Southern Gaeltacht is not so satisfactory. The Munster men and women who are interested in the Irish language ought to bestir themselves, and see that the few small remaining Irish-speaking areas will not become smaller still, because if they do, there is great danger that they will disappear altogether.

Now, what can the Government do in this matter? I think we have the particulars, and I think that the school figures give a fairly exact account of the actual position which I have dealt with briefly in Irish. We have taken up, like our predecessors, the policy enshrined in the White Paper issued by our predecessors, based on the recommendations of the Gaeltacht Commission reports. We have been implementing these. Teachers have to have certain qualifications in Irish. They have to have a good knowledge of Irish to teach in the Gaeltacht. There are training schemes on which large sums of money have been spent for the training of our teachers through the medium of Irish. Considerable preference is given to boys and girls from the Gaeltacht who enter for the teaching profession, and bonuses are given to teachers who teach through Irish in the Gaeltacht areas. School administration is largely through Irish. The Gaeltacht Commission reported that "non-Irish-speaking officials ought to be replaced by Irish-speaking ones as soon as possible." That has been done. Take the Gárdaí. The Commissioner, some years ago, decided that the Gárdaí in the Irish-speaking districts should do all their work through Irish, and that is being done. The courts are co-operating. I think that now, perhaps for the first time, there is no reason whatever why, since the judges and the officials in the courts know Irish, that the work of the courts in these districts should not be through Irish.

The Gaeltacht services branch administration has always been done through Irish. The Minister for Agriculture has a special section of his Department dealing with schemes for the improvement of the Gaeltacht. I do not know whether the people of the Gaeltacht are fully aware of all that the Department of Agriculture is trying to do for them. In other parts of the country we have often found that the people were not aware of these schemes. I have a list of them here, but I do not think I need mention them in detail. I can indicate the type of scheme. We have a farm improvements scheme, a lime subsidy, reclamation and drainage scheme, a scheme of grants for the erection or repair of lime kilns, a seed distribution scheme, a demonstration plots scheme, a poultry development scheme, a special term bull scheme, a special term ram scheme, a pig-breeding scheme, a veterinary dispensary scheme, a Connemara veterinary scheme, a scheme of loans for glasshouses. Owing to the war, this scheme was held up, but the Minister for Agriculture is interested in it, and I believe it is the type of scheme which could be of the greatest advantage to the people of the Gaeltacht. Many of them are experienced in this kind of work, and all that is necessary is that there should be an effective organisation for the production of tomatoes and for their transport and marketing in Dublin. As soon as conditions permit and materials are available, the Minister for Agriculture intends to push forward with that scheme. Schemes in connection with beehives, fencing and tree planting are administered by the special section of the Department of Agriculture. All the correspondence is done through Irish, and in the Gaeltacht areas the schemes are administered through six Irish-speaking agricultural overseers and 31 Irish-speaking assistant agricultural overseers. They all do their work through Irish. All the correspondence with headquarters is done through Irish, so that all the work in connection with the development of agriculture, horticulture, bee-keeping, poultry-keeping and tree planting, so far as these schemes are concerned, is done through Irish.

The Post Office, we know, has given preference to young people from the Gaeltacht to enter its employment. I feel that there is no difficulty as far as that particular branch of the administration is concerned. The old age pensions officers in charge of that area are all Irish speakers and I should be surprised if there were any complaints on that score. The Customs and Excise administration has always been noted for its interest in Irish. As regards unemployment assistance benefit, there is a special section dealing with the Irish-speaking areas and the work is being done through Irish but there is no use in the Government setting up a special section or seeing that its officials have Irish and that, having gone into the service with Irish, they should be compelled, as the Gaeltacht Commission recommended, to use Irish in their ordinary business, if the people do not speak Irish to them. Unfortunately that does not always happen. We hear complaints from time to time but we do not hear of the hundreds of officers who are there available, who can speak fluent Irish, who can do their work in Irish and whose services are not requisitioned. If they are requisitioned, it is very often a case of the official, rather than the person with whom he has had to do business, initiating the discussion in Irish. As far as administration is concerned, I think the Government can claim that in a great many respects we are far ahead of the people outside. There may be certain branches of the administration not as good as we would all wish them to be but taking them all in all—and I think the examples I have given are proof of it —the administration in the Gaeltacht areas, I think, is very satisfactory.

Deputy Mulcahy referred to the Gaeltacht Order. The principle upon which these Orders was based was that a definite preference should be given for a knowledge of Irish. That is the rule in the filling of all public positions and an over-all preference is given for a competent knowledge of Irish. A person who is qualified to do his work in Irish will get the position provided he has the requisite qualifications. But what has happened? Persons have secured posts in Gaeltacht areas who are not qualified in Irish because, as I say, applicants with a knowledge of Irish, who were otherwise qualified, were not available. The posts had to be filled. There has been a genuine difficulty in getting Irish-speaking officers—medical officers of health and nurses—and I think that local authorities, if they are interested and wish to co-operate in the national policy of helping Irish forward, ought to have regard to these difficulties and when they are fixing scales of salaries and remuneration for their officers, particularly on the public health side, they ought to make allowance for the fact that the officers have to live in these isolated areas. They have to do their work in Irish and the same compensation ought to be given as is given in the case of other public services. From 1918 to 1945, 1,442 officers and employments were affected by these language Orders and out of the 1,442 vacancies filled only 355 have not qualified.

General Mulcahy

Does the Minister say 1,442 vacancies?

Mr. Derrig

Yes, 1,442 persons have been appointed to offices and employments in the Gaeltacht during that period. A certain number of those people claim to be over age. There is also the position, as the Deputy knows, that a great number of these posts are minor posts, such as those of laundresses and wardsmaids where a high standard of education would not be expected. It appears that even in those cases it has not been always possible to find persons even with an oral knowledge of Irish such as would enable it to be said that they were competent to do their work through Irish. There has been a scheme also for providing nurses from the Gaeltacht which, I think, the Deputy initiated. Even so, there is this difficutly in getting people who have the language. The whole matter has been a cause for anxiety to the Government, not only now but for years past. The Government does not wish to impose hardship on people who have made a genuine effort and who are incapable, because of age or for some other sound reason, of learning Irish, at least to the extent of being able to do their work through it. On the other hand, this Order is of the greatest importance because if officers of the State and public servants in the Gaeltacht are not able to do their work in Irish, we cannot expect ordinary citizens to have respect for Irish or to speak it themselves.

The Minister for Local Government and Public Health has been examining this matter and is most anxious that those persons, who have not qualified in Irish so far, would do so and that they would be able to do their work through Irish. He is considering what further steps should be taken to deal with the cases of those who have not qualified. The intention of the Minister is to enforce the policy of Gaelicising local services in the Gaeltacht area, that is, the policy which is enshrined in the Gaeltacht Order. It is the intention of the Minister to make that policy effective and I think the Dáil may take it that the Orders will be put into more effective operation in future.

I do not think, having regard to the fact that the Government is examining this question from time to time and that Ministers who deal with economic affairs have special relations with the Gaeltacht areas—Ministers like myself, not dealing with economic affairs, are also in a position to have special knowledge of the circumstances—that it is necessary to have a further examination, merely for the purpose of ascertaining the facts. I do not know that the examination is likely to suggest remedies which have not already suggested themselves and have not been considered. From the economic point of view, I have referred to the schemes of the Department of Agriculture. There has, of course, been an enormous improvement in the condition of the people in the Gaeltacht in our time. There has been not alone the income that they have derived from the magnificent turf schemes; there have been the cottage industries, which have been financed by the Government for many years, and the housing policy, which did such a wonderful amount of good in these areas. The Land Commission has given a great deal of attention and spent a great deal of money in these areas. Fishing has also received attention. Then we had general schemes like unemployment assistance, children's allowances, public works schemes, farm improvements and land reclamation, all of which were of special benefit to the people in these areas.

The unification of all the Gaeltacht services in a single department which has been suggested from time to time, not recently—the matter received pretty full consideration by the Government more than once—was not considered by the Minister an effective method of giving assistance. My belief —and I think I can speak for the Government—is that the particular schemes that it has been found are of special benefit to the Gaeltacht should be pushed forward—if necessary, they should be improved—and that each Department, such as the Department of Local Government, the Department of Agriculture, the Department of Industry and Commerce and the Department of Lands, dealing particularly with the Gaeltacht from the economic side, should all do their utmost to improve the people's condition. I would go further and say that every one of the Ministers responsible for these activities would be prepared to encourage suitable schemes, and even to initiate them, if they are satisfied that they will be of benefit. The Minister for Industry and Commerce, who has helped persons to initiate industries in other parts of the country, would be more than willing, I feel quite sure, if propositions were put before him for the development of suitable industries in the Gaeltacht, to carefully consider them and, if possible, put them into effect.

There is the question of co-ordination, as I have said, in Irish. Co-ordination between the Government Departments has been effected through a Cabinet Sub-Committee, and that committee can be always called upon to deal with matters that may arise or, if necessary, it may initiate a new policy or a new orientation, either on the economic side or from the point of view of the language.

General Mulcahy

Has that committee considered the fact that the areas are declining and that the language is weakening? Has it discussed that aspect of the situation at all?

Mr. Derrig

Well, it has not specifically discussed that aspect, but it has been dealing all the time with the question of advancing Irish in the public administration and co-ordinating and making more useful the various Government activities. It can always be called together, however, and if the Government choose, they can ask the Cabinet Sub-Committee to go into the matter in more detail. However, as regards the administration generally, so far as the language is concerned, I think that the situation is pretty satisfactory. There may be certain hollows which will have to be levelled up, and certain weaknesses and shortcomings which ought to be remedied. So far as the Department of Finance is concerned, being the Department responsible for the public service, the Minister has undertaken to see that there will be effective co-ordination, with his Department as the key-stone, to see that the work of the administration is done through Irish, and efforts will be made to push forward with that work so that, at the earliest possible date, all the work of administration in the Gaeltacht areas will be through Irish. Attention is constantly given by Ministers to schemes for the promotion of Irish, and the Government will consider what further steps they will take to focus attention upon this matter and to strengthen the Irish language, not alone in the administration, but in public affairs generally.

I should like, in conclusion, to emphasise that the co-operation of the public is necessary. I do not think that we are likely to get anywhere if we think that the Government can alter this situation in the Gaeltacht and make the Gaeltacht, for example, uni-lingual, or prevent English from breaking in there, if they have not the co-operation of the public. The Government can do certain things; they can give a lead in the matter, and the Government are prepared to give that lead and a certain direction, but in the long run, as the House will realise, the success of anything that the Government may initiate must depend on the co-operation of the people themselves. The Deputy has not explained, in his speech, in what particular directions he thinks the Government could effectively intervene to remedy this position of the dwindling of the Irish-speaking districts and of the Irish language as a vernacular. The Government have the greatest sympathy with the motion, and if it were possible to do more in the way of systematic examination that would be worth while, the Government would be quite prepared to do it. I am not ruling out the possibility that a more systematic examination may be made, but I have pointed out that, so far as encouraging Irish in the administration is concerned, the Government have done their share. I have shown that there is co-ordination between the Departments dealing with the Gaeltacht and that special efforts have been made to intensify the drive, not only in the Gaeltacht but outside it, and the Government will consider further what steps they can usefully take.

Seosamh Ó Mongáin

On mbealach a labhair an tAire agus an drochmhisneach atá air faoin mbealach a bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar dul ar gcúl, gan mórán misnigh aige go dtiubharfar ar ais í tar éis na mílte atá caillte léi, faraor nach thiar i gCárna atá mé gan a bheith ag éisteacht len a leitheide de dhroch-mhisneach.

Ag breathnú uaidh seo dhom feicim dealbh an Phiarsaigh—agus nach í an Ghaeilge agus é féin a chuir anseo muid thrína chéile—arbh é an rún an Ghaeilge a choinneáil beo níos mó ná éinní eile. Anois deich mbliana fichead tar éis a bháis, tar éis dhá Rialtas Éireannach a bheith againn más fíor dhúinn féin, céard atá le rá ag an Aire ach go bhfuil an Ghaeilge ar fáil bháis agus nach bhfuil mórán misní aige aisti go dtiubharfar ar ais í. Sinne, ar an dá thaobh den Teach is mór é ar gciontiocair leis seo leis an sompla a thugas muid.

Dúirt an tAire go dtéigheann an bhoichteanacht, an iargúlacht agus gach uile rud dá dhonacht i dteannta chéile leis an nGaeilge. Más sin í barail Aire on Oideachais go bhfóire Dia air agus nach deacair don Ghaeilge dul chun cinn; gach uile dhuine ón Aire síos dá bhocadh sin orainn.

Ach ní shin í an mhuinín bhí ag a bPiarsach asainn. Cheap sé go mba muid ba háille agus ba huaisle agus ba galánta bhí sa tír. Nach é an spirid sin a bhí ceart agus a chuir in áirde muid. Támuide ar aon intinn leis an bPiarsach gur sinn is fearr; má táimuid bocht in airgead támaid saibhir go maith ar bhealaigh eile.

Marach Fíor-Ghaeltacht Chonamara agus a leithide, dá laghad den teanga dá bhfuil ann ní bheadh a leath oiread le fáil anois. Nar dhúirt Cromail "go hIfreann nó go Connachta" le scoith Chlainne Gael. I gConamara atá iarmhar ceart Clainne Gael. Thogh muide Connachta agus d'fhágamar an chuid eile dá roghain ag na daoine eile.

Dúirt Micheál Óg Mac Phaidín agus Cormac Ó Bheisleáin go ndearna an Rialtas eile agus an Rialtas seo go leor don Ghaeltacht. Má rinne, cá bhfuil an cruthú. Níl maith sa gcaint ná sa seafóid mura mbí an cruthú agad. Do réir figiúirí an Aire féin tá na figiúirí ina n-aghaidh; níl an cruthú acu.

Gan aimhreas tiubhra duine éigin cuntas anseo fós; caithfemid cuntas a thabhairt ann. Éireoidh suíocháin an tighe seo i bhfianaise in ar n-aghaidh. Mar adúirt Seán Bacach:—

"A Athair agus a Airdrí, iarraimse do phárdún mar ní agamsa atá breith a thabhairt ar éinneach; ach is olc í an aithrí mhall, amhdaídís an cás mar beidh sé scríofra ar chlár ghlan a n-éadain."

Tá Radio Éireann againn más fíor, ach ní shín é an t-ainm is ceart a thabhairt air do réir mo bharail-sa ach Radio Gallda. Symphony Concert No. 1 and Symphony Concert No. 2 a bhíos ar siúl ann agus a leithide. Cé a chuala blas Gaeilge ar éigin as; agus an chuid is mó den Ghaeilge féin, do réir na fíor-Ghaeilgeoirí, ní Gaeilge í ach seafóid agus glugar agus raiméis.

Éistim leis ach ní chuala mé aon bhlas uaidh ar bhfiú Gaeilge a thabhairt air ach a gcuala mé seachtain ó shoin agus Dé Máirt seo caite nuair a chuala mé Séamus Ó Aonghusa agus Sorcha Ní Ghuairim ag cur síos ar na seanamhráin agus na sean-dánta a thógadar síos i bparáiste Chárna. Nár cheart leithidí na beirte seo a bheith againn uair gach uile sheachtain ar a laghad. Ach céard atá againn ina n-áit ach an spelláil nua. Deir daoine liomsa—mar nach duine mé a bhfuil aon eolas agam féin ar seo—go ndéanfa sé dochar agus go bhfuil sé ag déanamh dochair. Shílfeá rud ar bith a bhí sách maith ag Seán Mac Shaeil, an tAthair Ó Gramhnaigh, an Piarsach agus Pádraic Ó Conaire go mbeadh sé sáthach maith againne, ach ní mar sin atá ag na spriosáin atá anois i bposta, a chuir an Ghaeilge i bposta, agus nach mbeadh i bposta marach an Gaeilge; do réir mo bharail-sa agus sin é mo bharail tá siad ag iarraidh í mharú.

Is maith liomsa go bhfuil sé le rá agam go bhfuil an Ghaeilge chomh flúirseach i bhfíor-Ghaeltacht Chonamara agus bhí sé ariamh. Ní uaimse amháin é sin ach ó Sheamas Ó Duilearga adúirt é thíos san Abbey Theatre. Marach pobal Chárna agus a leithide, adúirt sé, is beag an Ghaeilge a bheadh le crúinniú acu. Tháinig fear nó beirt aníos as Cárna anseo ag innsean scéalta agus is mó an Ghaeilge atá acu ná már atá ag a bhfuil sa School of Celtic Studies a bhfuil mámannaí airgid dá chaitheamh leis. Is beag atá dá chaitheamh leis na scéalta agus an seanchas a scríobh síos ó na seandaoine agus ó na daoine óga freisin mar tá cuimse daoine óga a bhfuil cuimse seanchais agus scéalta acu féin, ach nuair a bheas an dream sin imithe agus tá siad ag imeacht, ní thiubhra airgead an domhain a gcuid scéalta ar ais. Déanamaid é seo sul a mbí sé ró-mhall agus tugamaid airgead do lucht an Folklore le seo a dhéanamh. I gConnachta faoi láthair, níl duine amháin ann ag scríobh na scéalta nuair ba cheart trúir nó ceathar a bheith ó mhaidin go faoithin ag scríobh ann, mar má imíonn sí mar atá an Ghaeilge imithe i gCuige Mumhan beidh na records againn lena chruthú go raibh sí ann lá éicínt. Mar sin, ba cheart rud éicínt a dhéanamh go luath agus gan é ligean ar cáirde.

Nuair a bhí mise óg, bhí an mhuintir a raibh an seanchas agus na scéalta acu go tiugh is gach uile bhaile agus iad ag comórtas le chéile féachaint cé acu ab fhearr. Agus nach againn a bhíodh an siamsa ag éisteacht leo. Chuimhním go dtáinig fear i bhfad blianta ó shoin a raibh Fournier air agus bhí sé seachtain in éineacht liomsa. Chuala sé an oiread amhráin agus dánta is cheap sé nach raibh sa domhan. Thug mé soir go Leitir Mealláin é agus thug mé Túna Thomáis Seáinín, anamhránach, liom. Chuamar go Teach Ósta an Chuigéil. Cuireadh fios ar an gCeannabhánach sean-amhraní eile. Thosaigh pobal Chárna agus Pobal Leitir Mealláin ag cor a chéile ag amhráin ó mhaidin go meán oíche. Níor stopadar gur cheap Fournier go raibh a sháith aige féin agus é cruthaithe dhó amhráin agus scéalta bheith ann a shíl sé bheith caillte. An t-am sin, bhí sé chomh héasca na scórtha de na hamhránachaí sin fháil; anois, murach Sorcha Ní Ghuairim agus a leithide a thóg na hamhráin óna máthair ní bheadh mórán seanamhránach ann. Tá Sorcha go maith agus bhí a mathair go maith ach goir ná gaobhar ní raibh acu ar mháthair mhór mháthair Shorca a bhí híontach.

Anois deir an tAire go bhfuil an Ghaeilge beagnach caillte ag muintir Chúige Mumhan. Má tá sí caillte acu níl sí caillte ag daoine atá ag déanamh brabach uirthi. Chailleadar féin í agus ní ligean an náire nó an onóir dóibh í labhairt; tá sí leáite ach níl fáil ag duine ar phosta dá huireasa. Cén fáth má ligeadar féin uathu í a gcaithfe muide glaeadh léi? Tá níos mó Gaeilge in mo phobal féin ná tá i gCúige Mumhan ar fad. Bhí mise is gCúige Mumhan ceathair nó cúig de bhlianta ó shoin agus ní chuala mé focal ar bith ann ach corr fhocal anonn is anall sna sléibhte ann. Tá sí againn ar fud an chósta ar fad.

Má cailltear an Ghaeilge sa nGaelacht caillfear an Ghaeilge; tá sí le bheith imithe. Mar sin ba cheart dúinn a bheith ceanúil ar an nGaeltacht agus rud éigin a dhéanamh dhóibh lena gcur os cionn boicíní.

Is as iargcúil na Gaeltachta mise agus níl náire orm a rá agus níor rith mé as mar dhéanas cuid mhaith nuair shíleas siad a bheith go maith sa saol.

Má bhíonn beagán cabhrach ag sroicheadh don Gaeltacht bíonn gach áit na Ghaeltacht agus nuair tugtar an chabhair ní Gaeltacht ar aon chor an áit sin.

Teighim thar Theach an Phiarsaigh gach seachtain agus, ach amháin go bhfuil a theach folamh déarfainn go bhfuil ballaí agus a chuid tuí ag coinneáil spirid na Gaeilge agus na Gaeltachta beo. Mar sin, ina ainm agus in ainm Eamoinn Ceant i ndeireadh na dála féin, tagamaid uile go léir le chéile agus déanamuis, ón duine is airde go dtí an duine is ísle againn, ár ndícheall an Ghaeilge a choinneáil beo bríomhar. Labhramaid gach uile uair í is féidir linn, spáinimuid don tír uilig gurb na Gaeilgeoirí an Ghaeilge agus an Fhíor-Ghaeltacht ancaire agus slabhra na tíre. Má bristear an slabhra sin beidh an tír le , agus rud ar bith a theighea, le fánaidh is deacair é thabhairt ar ais.

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

Gan amhras, cuirimid go léir suim san tairgsint seo. Níl aon difríocht eadrainn mar gheall ar an scéal atá á phlé—ach conas is fearr an teanga do choinneál beo sa Ghaeltacht. Tá an Ghaeltacht ag dul ar gcúl in áiteanna ach níl sí ag dul ar gcúl chó mór in áiteanna eile. Táim ar aon intinn leis an Aire Oideachais mar gheall ar cheist na Gaeilge sa Ghaeltacht agus sa Ghalltacht, ach ní mór dúinn, ar a shon san, an Ghaeilge do choinneál beo sa Ghaeltacht, óir, mar dúirt cainteoirí eile, is í an Ghaeltacht fíor-thobar na Gaeilge. Ní raibh beartaithe agam labhairt ach nuair chualas an cainteór deireannach ag cur de mar gheall ar an droch-mheas atá ag na daoine ar an nGaeilge, ní rabhas i ndon staonadh ón gcaint. Sin é an sórt cainte a dhéanann díobháil don Ghaeilge.

An Taoiseach

Díreach.

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

Duine ag teacht ón nGaeltacht agus á leigint air ná bhfuíl aon mheas ag an Rialtas ná ag an nDáil ar an Ghaeilge ná ar an nGaeltacht—na fuil ar siúl ach cur i gcéill. Tá meas ag na daoine ar an nGaeilge agus ar an nGaeltacht. Tá daoine anseo gan focal Gaeilge acu agus tá meas acu ar an nGaeilge agus ar an nGaeltacht. Táim cinnte go bhfuil daoine ar fuaid na tíre ná raibh riamh sa Ghaeltacht a bhfuil níos mó suime sa Ghaeilge agus sa Ghaeltacht acu ná cuid de mhuintir na Gaeltachta féin. Níl aon mhaith i gcaint cosúil leis an gcaint a chualamar anois. Ní mór dúinn bheith ciallmhar má theastaíonn uainn an Ghaeilge a thabhairt thar n-ais. Is éigin dúinn comhthuigsint agus chómh-chaidreamh a bheith againn má tá uainn an Ghaeilge do shábháil sa Ghaeltacht agus í a leathnú ar fuaid na tíre. Do réir mo thuairimse, dá mbeimísne, lucht na Gaeilge, nios ciallmhaire uaireanta ná mar atáimid ar an gceist seo, d'feadfaimis níos mó daoine do mhealladh linn. An sórt baoth-chainte a chualamar ón gcainteor deireannach —sin é an rud atá ag coimeád na ndaoine ó nGaeilge d'fhoghlaim. Ní mar gheall air gur rugadh agus gur tógadh duine sa Ghaeltacht agus go bhfuil Gaeilge aige ón gcliabhán gur féidir leis a rá nach bhfuil aon tsuim ag daoine eile san scéal. Ina ionad sin, agus in ionad duine bheith ag cur de mar sin, ba cheart moladh do thabhairt do na daoine a chuireann spéis sa Ghaeilge agus a chaitheann tréimhse sa Ghaeltacht ag foghlaim na Gaeilge.

Dúirt an Teachta, leis, gur i gConamara a gheobhfaí an chuid is mó de na cainteoirí Gaeilge. Nílim ar aon aigne leis. Is dóigh liom go bhfuighfeá níos mó cainteoirí Gaeilge i nDún-na-nGall ná i gConamara. Do réir na bhfigiúirí atá ag an Aire Oideachais, tá níos mó páistí ag freastal ar na scoileanna i nDún-na-nGall ná mar tá i gConamara.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Agus thuit sé 11 per cent. i mbliana.

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

B'fhéidir gur thuit, ach cé air go bhfuil an milleán?

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Níl éinne ag cur an mhilleáin ar éinne.

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

Cad é an mhaitheas bheith ag cur milleáin ar éinne? B'fhéidir go bhfuil cuid den milleáin orainn go léir nuair ná labhraimíd an teanga níos minicí.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Ní cursaí milleáin é seo ata eadrainn anois.

An Taoiseach

Raibh tú ag éisteacht leis an gcainteor deireanach?

Seosamh Ó Mongán

Céard dúirt mé?

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

Dúrais nach raibh aon mheas ag na daoine ar lucht na Gaeltachta.

Seosamh Ó Mongán

Is fíor é sin.

An Taoiseach

Ní fíor.

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

Agus dúrais, leis, mar gheall ar an méid daoine atá ag labhairt na Gaeilge, go bhfuil an chraobh ar fad ag muintir Chonamara.

Seosamh Ó Mongán

Agus rug siad an chraobh leo ag an Oireachtas.

An Ceann Comhairle

Níor cuireadh isteach ar an dTeachta.

Risteárd Ua Maolchatha

Nach maith an spiorad a bhí aige?

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

Maidir le Cúige Mumhan, cé go bhfuil an Ghaeltacht ag dul ar gcúl, mar sin féin is annsin a gheobhas tú saidhbhreas cainte.

Seosamh Ó Mongan

Go bhfóiridh Dia orainn!

Eamon Ó Ciosáin

Agus is ansin a gheobhaidh tú filíocht na Gaeilge mar is ansan a rugadh na filí is mó gur fiú trácht orthu. Ná bímís ag conspóid mar gheall ar cheisteanna mar sin. Is se atá uainn go léír ná an Ghaeilge do thabhairt thar n-ais. Tá áthas orm gur tháinig an rún seo chun cinn. Táimid ar aon intinn go mba cheart suim áirithe á chur sa cheist seo agus tá súil agam go gcuirfear an tsuim sin inti, mar tá a fhois againn ná beadh aon mhaitheas bheith ag cur síos ar chursaí náisiúntachta má gheibheann an Ghaeilge bás.

The Taoiseach

I do not think anybody can find fault with the motion that is before the House. I think it is true to say that, so far as any evidence that we have would indicate, the area of the Gaeltacht is dwindling. If there was any systematic examination which could be undertaken that would help us in any way to find out why that is so, other than what we know generally already, I think it should be undertaken but, like the Minister for Education, I do not know that we would get very much from any investigation that we might undertake.

Everybody knows what the position is. In this country at the moment the majority of our people speak English as their ordinary language, as their natural language; it is the language that is spoken in their homes. That is the fact and we cannot get away from it. What we are trying, and have been trying, to do through the schools is to produce a generation by which the Irish language, the national language, will be spoken from their earliest days, so that we will have the advantage of having it as the vernacular.

I take it the aim of everyone who is interested in the revival of the language is to try to bring about a situation in which the people of this country will use the Irish language as their everyday speech, as their ordinary vernacular. That does not mean to say that we want to exclude them from the knowledge of any other language. We do not want that, but we do want to try to bring about a situation in which the people of this country, in their ordinary language, speaking one to the other, will use Irish in preference to any other language. If that is our aim, it is quite clear that the Irish-speaking districts play a most important part, because it is there that the tradition of using the language as the vernacular has remained unbroken; it is there that the language is spoken in such a way as it can only be spoken by people who have used it from the time they spoke their first words.

Any of us who learned even a few words of Irish when we were growing up, know that the words we learned then have a significance for us that we have never been able to get from the words we acquired later. I know that has been the way with me, in any case. The few Irish words I knew when I was young had a certain significance, a fullness of meaning for me that I have never been able to get from any Irish words I have learned since. I saw them applied in a particular way and I knew all about them. I have learned many other words since but, in regard to these particular words, I know their peculiar application and their shades of meaning and the manner in which they could be applied and, so far as I am concerned, I have not been able to get the same thing from any other words I have learned in the meantime. It is for that reason we are so anxious that the children should learn Irish in the schools from the start.

I know there has been a difference of opinion as to whether that is wise or not, but those who have paid attention to the teaching and the learning of languages, particularly where children are concerned, have all agreed that the age at which language is best learned, the age at which there is every likelihood of it becoming the vernacular with those who speak it, is about eight to 11 or perhaps earlier. Our aim, therefore, is that we want to get Irish brought back so that it will become the vernacular of our people. That being our aim, there is not the slightest doubt about it that the preservation of the Gaeltacht, the preservation of the language where it is the natural language of the people, is of prime importance.

What can we do about it? A great deal of nonsense is spoken, and there is nothing, I think, more irritating than to hear people talking about the preservation of the language where it is spoken at present—the Gaeltacht— as if you could put a wall around that area, or as if you had some method by which you could, when you are speaking of the area outside the Gaeltacht, compel the people to speak a language they do not want to speak. You cannot do that and, consequently, the first thing to be done is to get the people to have the will to speak the language, to want to speak it, and they will not want to speak it unless they appreciate its value.

I get angry when I hear people from the Gaeltacht talking about the attitude of people outside, the attitude of members of the Government, and suggesting they are not in earnest about it. What those people are doing is, they are getting their own people to believe that those who are anxious about the language are only pretending. That is not so. Every person in the Gaeltacht who loves the language —and I take it most people who speak it must love it—has reason to be proud of it. I do not mind if a person from Connemara thinks he has the best Irish. I am glad to know that he thinks that. If a person from Donegal thinks he has the best Irish, let him think that and be proud of it. Similarly, if a Munsterman thinks his Irish is better, let him think that, too. The point is that everyone who speaks like that is proud of the language that he is speaking and, if we get those of influence in the Irish-speaking districts to let the people understand that they have something of great value and that the other people around them envy them, that is all the better.

I have been for some time learning the language. I have listened to native speakers and the dialect that I learned is probably more near that of the Connemara speaker than it is to the dialect of either of those who spoke from Donegal. When he speaks he speaks naturally and I could hardly follow it at all, he spoke so rapidly. I might live for several hundred years and, unless I was born and lived my life all over again, I could not hope to have the fluency that the Connemara speaker had. The beauty of it is that the language is natural in those areas and you can talk to those people and say to them: "You have something which we all envy, which the rest of the people of Ireland would envy." Many of us would give up all the knowledge we have of English in order to acquire the fluency that the speaker from Connemara and others have. We would give a lot to acquire that, but we would have to become young all over again in order to get it.

The first thing is for the people in the Gaeltacht, and all who have influence—and Deputies have influence —to talk to native Irish speakers and say to them: "You have something which is of tremendous value to the nation. As good Irish people, do not let it go. Cherish it. We do not want you to neglect your native language. We know you have to earn your living and some of you may have to leave the country to do so. We do not say to you that you are not to know other languages. Let you have five, ten or 15 languages." So far as I am concerned, the more languages they know the better, provided that when they are speaking in their own country to their own people the language they will use will be the language of the country, the Irish language. That is what we are out to do and the first thing for those in the Gaelic League, or in Comhdháil Náisiúnta, or Deputies, if they want to keep the language alive in the Gaeltacht and to help in the restoration of the language, is to get the people in the Gaeltacht to realise that they have something precious.

I remember, when I was beginning to learn Irish, I went down to the West anxious to study the language there. I met an old man there. I had a question to ask him and I asked it in Irish. What did he say? I remember it perfectly well, because I got a great shock. He said to me: "Do you think I do not know English?" He, I suppose, thought the reason I turned to Irish was because he was a poor man and I thought it was a fit language to address to him. That was a complete misunderstanding of the situation. I went there to try to learn the language and my object in speaking to him was to practise speaking Irish, but this man thought that it was because he happened to be wearing a báwneen or something else that I spoke to him in the native tongue.

The first thing we must do is to kill any idea in these Irish-speaking districts that the fact that they speak the language is anything but an honour. We must encourage them to realise that they ought to be proud of it. Can we get that done? That is our first step. In this matter there is no difference between Parties. If we discuss it on this side we might have the same differences of opinion about putting it ahead as Deputies would have, perhaps, on the other side. Thanks be to God there is no political Party difference with regard to this. The first thing is for all to deal with it seriously on that basis, that there is no difference. We may as individuals differ as to what is the best way to advance, but for goodness' sake let nobody suggest that there is not seriousness on the part of those who are in favour of the language. It is a terrible blow at any attempt to get the language back to suggest anything of the kind. It may be said that we are not doing more, but as far as the Government, and as far as I am concerned, if I thought the expenditure of any sum of money was as a certainty going to bring the restoration of the language, I would say that it would be like winning a war, that the money should be spent on it. The trouble is that it is not possible to ensure that the expenditure of money in any particular way is going to get with certainty the results hoped for. You cannot be certain of it. The sums of money which have to be spent are sometimes very large.

The one thing definite that you can get after is the question of schools. There again we have the difficulty that many parents and, sometimes, I am afraid, some teachers nullify to a large extent the aim of the policy of teaching Irish in the schools, by suggesting all sorts of things which, I think, are not well founded. Most of us, if we go back to our young days, could ask ourselves what we knew when leaving the primary school, and we will probably admit to ourselves that it was very, very little. If we were to judge ourselves by the amount we had learned when leaving the primary school, we would say that we did not know very much. The fact is that they do not realise that they have a fair knowledge of Irish. They have learned a lot. They have a tremendous training and, as far as the secondary schools are concerned, those who have done the course have all the value that used to be said was got from study of the classics, the mental discipline and all the rest, whatever was said about it can be said of those who studied Irish in that way. In the Gaeltacht we are trying to do that.

As far as the Gaeltacht services are concerned we are trying to bring it about as quickly as we can, that the whole of the officials in the Gaeltacht will be able to talk to the people in their own language—in the Irish language. If it is said that there are exceptions let us look at them and do our best to try to bring about changes. We are trying to secure that civil servants coming in have to know Irish —to co-ordinate it—and a Sub-Committee of the Cabinet has been set up to keep in touch with it. It is mainly through the Department of Finance, as the Minister pointed out, that there is general government of the Civil Service. It is through it we hope to get the necessary co-ordination, so that through the various Departments dealing with the Gaeltacht, there is an effort made to see, as far as it can be made, that they will have good example, and that there will be no excuse for anybody saying: "We have to turn to English when dealing with these Departments." We are told that it is an economic question. It is only partially an economic question. It is economic in the sense that those were congested areas, where conditions were hard, living was difficult, and the people, apparently, could not keep a high standard of life in particular areas. The natural thing is that the moment we relieve that congestion we are taking the Irish speakers out of those areas, whether we relieve it by getting them opportunities in the cities, in industries, or whether by their going abroad. There is no doubt that the relief of congestion means that there is a thinning of population and, to that extent, you are weakening the strength of the language in the area, because the more speakers of the language in a particular area the stronger the language naturally becomes. That has happened. It is not our fault.

I can quite understand the Deputy saying that more could be done through Radio Eireann, but unfortunately Radio Eireann has to cater for the whole of the people of this country and if it did not they would turn the station off and listen to the English Radio.

Mr. Mongan

Let them. I do not mean to give offence.

The Taoiseach

That is a big question. I assure the Deputy that I thought over many times what more we could do. It is much the same sort of remedy as that suggestion of putting a wall around the place. It is the same type of remedy and does not get you anywhere. What you want is to have your programmes in Irish as attractive as you can make them, so that people will listen to them in preference. Tastes differ. I have not had the privilege—because it is a privilege—of being reared in the Gaeltacht. I do not know how the Gaeltacht reacts to some of these programmes, but, speaking for myself—I differ from others—I know that I would rather listen to an Irish tune than to classical music. Perhaps that would be regarded as a musical defect. I am perfectly certain that if our radio is heard in Scotland, and if Irish people listen in, they would listen to the Irish tunes rather than to others, though at home people are not always like that. I am speaking of places outside the Gaeltacht. I do not pretend to interpret the attitude of those in the Gaeltacht in regard to that matter. The forces against us are very strong, the newspapers, the opening up of areas by the buses, the radio, and the cinema, all these things are breaking in and, undoubtedly, help to bring in a foreign language. What we must try to do is to get the spirit there, so that these things are not going to destroy the desire of the people to speak their own language. We must build up strength so that the strength inside will be so great that you will be able to resist those influences. I would ask everybody who has any interest in the language, for goodness' sake, not to suggest that those trying to restore it are not in earnest. Anybody who suggests that the Government is fooling, pretending, or letting on, is undoing whatever efforts we are making and rendering them fruitless. What we all want to do is to teach the people to understand that the restoration of the language is vital from the national point of view, and that it is independent of Party, seeing that all Parties are combined in that desire. We may differ as to the best method. That is natural.

The next thing is, when there is a Government, whatever Government is in office, and when, having considered the matter, it has a certain plan, let us all get behind it and try to make that plan as successful as we possibly can. Let us not be pulling in opposite directions, undoing whatever is attempted. After all, the Government of the day will have certain powers in a certain direction; it will have certain responsibilities; it will have to make up its mind what things it can do and, when it has decided on a certain course, we ought to be careful in throwing our weight against the Government in that particular direction because it will weaken the efforts and it will prevent the natural fruits from coming.

With regard to the motion itself, it was a narrow motion. The proposer when introducing it said he was not asking lots of questions, and I think he was wise, because in these questions there is room for difference of opinion. He simply wanted to know, do we know ourselves what is happening; next, could we do something to get the people who, if they realised what is happening, might help. With that I am heartily in agreement. The only thing I would be anxious about is that it should not bring about a feeling of despondency in regard to the matter. I think we can, but I agree that it is not by putting your head in the sand that we can do it. That is not the way to do it. I agree that we should see exactly what our difficulties are. I think we do look the difficulties straight in the face and understand what they are but I believe, notwithstanding all the difficulties, that we can succeed over a time if we can secure only one thing, and that is realisation by the people of the value of the language and a desire on the part of the people to learn it and, on the part of those who have learned it, a desire to use it on all possible occasions. If we can get that much we have everything. We have the machinery. We have still, thanks be to God, enough of the Gaeltacht in which we are able to get the language from its living source. We have machinery now that was not there at all 20 years ago. We have got control of the schools, control of education; we can settle the books. Please do not make points about the spelling. Do not, please. It is not for the Irish speaker. The Irish speaker does not care what way it is spelt. He does not bother his head. It does not matter to him in the slightest and if he is able to read it at all, anyway it is spelt he will very quickly know what the word is intended to be. But that is not the reason. What we are trying to do is to get a new reformed system of spelling so that when a child, or a person like myself or somebody else who is learning the language, on seeing the word once will recognise it in the same dress the second time. I do not know whether others have the same difficulty as I have but I think it makes it much easier to recognise a person if I see him in the same dress as when I saw him on the first occasion. That is the purpose, to try to get a common standard. It has a lot of influence.

It is a bad thing for children if they can spell it any old way at all. That is bad. It is much better to get accuracy so that there is one known way and that is right and the rest are wrong. That is what we want to get so that there will be in regard to Irish the same standard of correctness in spelling as there is in other languages. That is the whole purpose. I am sure the Deputy who is making points about the spelling will see that to do that is not wise. Anything that disparages efforts that are genuinely made for the progress of the language, anything that is done like that, is giving an opportunity to those who are not very strongly in favour of the language of going in the opposite direction.

We accept the motion, if the Deputy would only indicate what particular way he thinks the examination could be made. As a matter of fact, I think, at first sight, that probably the best examination would be to go over these figures again, to see the homes where the language is spoken; how many homes in which it is spoken naturally; whether isolated, in groups, and things of that sort. Economic questions could be examined also. I think there is touch with them. I do not know that the setting up of a commission or starting some investigation of that particular sort would be of great value. The Gaeltacht is important but if I could systematically do it, the way in which I would preserve the Gaeltacht is by systematically tackling the Breach-Ghaeltacht around it. It is in the Breach-Ghaeltacht around the Gaeltacht that your efforts will bear most fruit. The older people in these places know it. They have the right word and the right pronunciation. The children coming home from school will be understood in these places. That is the place in which we should make our effort, although not all our efforts, because we want it generally. But, if there is to be concentration of effort in any particular place, it is there it should be and then if you restore the language to the Breach-Ghaeltacht you are putting a protective ring about the Gaeltacht proper, you are expanding the Gaeltacht proper and in that way you are spreading it around the country as a whole. I believe that the one way of systematically tackling the language, outside the school question, is to tackle the Breach-Ghaeltacht and to put an intensive effort into these particular areas so that the language will be brought back there. In that way you will be protecting what we regard as the Fíor-Ghaeltacht of to-day in the best possible way, you will be increasing it and gradually spreading it out. The more you can spread the Fíor-Ghaeltacht, the greater will be the area of the Breach-Ghaeltacht around it.

Personally, I welcome the motion. I have often wondered whether it would not be useful if we could from time to time here in this House discuss these questions, provided we discuss them from a non-Party point of view, in other words, that we do not simply try to be making points one over the other, but seriously examine to see how our combined efforts could secure the success of this which is in my opinion the most important thing that the nation could turn its attention to at the present time.

General Mulcahy

It is because I think that we have a responsibility to discuss these things here that I put the motion in the form in which it is but, unless we have the facts, then our discussions will flow off away from the point in the way in which, to a very large extent, this discussion has flowed on this motion. Until the Taoiseach spoke his last few sentences I felt that the effort was completely wasted and that we were leading nowhere because I did not ask to have any particular situation in the Gaeltacht remedied; I asked to have it described by a systematic examination. I think that is the thing on which we really ought to concentrate. The Minister and the Taoiseach mentioned a very large number of Departments that are in systematic touch with every aspect of the life of the people there: the old age pension machinery, the Department of Agriculture through its various branches, assistant agricultural overseers and others who come in close touch with the people's lives such as the courts, the guards, teachers, home assistance officials, local officials. From every aspect of man and every aspect of work you have trained officials there in touch with the people and yet the only description we get of the strength of the Irish language in these districts is the short description contained on pages 20 and 21 of the Report of the Department of Education.

I quite agree with the Taoiseach that we do not want a commission set up to investigate this, but we surely do want an annual report as to the extent of the Irish-speaking districts and the position of the language in these districts. The teachers might fill up one particular kind of questionnaire, agricultural overseers might fill up another, people in touch with houses might fill up another. From every point of view you can get a picture that will show you the area, but from every point of view you want an opinion as to the state of the language from the point of view of linguistic strength and from the point of view of its use. It should not be beyond the bounds of our imagination to find out what particular type of question ought to be answered by way of report in an annual volume that will show us what that situation is.

The Taoiseach

I wonder would annually be too frequent?

General Mulcahy

I think that except the matter is brought to our notice yearly we will not have our minds focussed on it in the way in which they should be. The Taoiseach says this motion is for the purpose of getting information and seeing what we can get people to do about it. I want to have information not only for the House here for public discussion but for the country as a whole. There are many people in business, many people who visit the Irish-speaking districts for various reasons, and many people who never visit them but who are interested in the development of the language, who would be spurred to efforts in their own way by reading of the Irish-speaking districts and understanding the position there. If we are only to review the position in the Gaeltacht every five years or every three years, that is putting it on the very long finger. In the whole of Donegal there are only 1,790 families on whom the living language is dependent in that area. In spite of what Deputy Mongan may feel about it, the figures show that there are more families with Irish-speaking children going to school in Donegal than in Galway. Galway comes next. But there are only 1,500 families in Galway sending to school children who have Irish. There are 640 in Mayo, 330 in Kerry, 190 in Cork and only 79 in Waterford.

With a position so attenuated as that we should have our minds challenged once a year by a very well-prepared report, documented, illustrated, diagrammed and provided with maps, because there is no doubt that there is a rapid deterioration there, no matter what anyone may say. There is a very rapid deterioration when you see that, between 1936 and 1944, families to the extent of 13 per cent. have vanished out of the picture so far as can be seen from the schools scheme. The schools scheme gives a truer picture than you can get in any other way, although it is violently out of agreement with the statistics collected by the Gárda in 1935 and, perhaps, if they were compared, violently out of agreement with the figures provided by the ordinary census. I think they are the only real figures that you can bank upon as showing the area and the strength of the language as the living, traditionally spoken language in those districts.

It is a serious thing that we have all to admit that the Irish-speaking districts are dwindling and that the vernacular is weakening. I thought it was a mistake on my part to put that down in the motion, because I thought there might be disagreement about it. We may not like to admit it, but we cannot deal with the problem except we are realists. If we are realists, I think we will want a picture presented in greater and more striking detail than we get from these figures. If we got a picture presented by the various Departments, I think it would strike us in a more hopeful way than the picture we get from the educational statistics, and that many people would see signs of hope, or would see directions in which they could help in a constructive way, where other people would see nothing but things at which to be dismayed.

Therefore, I plead for consideration of how, in the best possible manner, the position in the Gaeltacht can be pictured and reported on in a systematic way. That will give us a clear picture, and from a clear picture I think we will be able to derive hope. If we do not have that picture presented to us, we will allow the situation to slip in the way in which it is slipping now, and we will be all just feeling that we are fully occupied and doing right by disagreeing with one another as to what ought to be done. The important thing is to get a picture of what the situation is and to get it early and, in the meantime, to keep on and to increase and intensify, if possible, the work that the Minister for Education described.

Question put and agreed to.

The Dáil adjourned at 2 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 27th February.