Vol. 110 No. 9
I move:
That a sum not exceeding £174,950 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1949, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Minister for Education.
Notice taken that 20 members were not present; House counted, and 20 members being present,
The sums that are being moved for total £7,310,000, that is, an increase of £140,830, or approximately 2 per cent. on the amount which was voted last year. The principal work which the Vote covers is connected with the education of 453,600 odd pupils of primary schools, with 12,772 teachers and 4,946 schools; the education of 43,710 pupils in secondary schools where there are 1,987 teachers and 402 schools. On the technical side there are 75,595 pupils involving 1,917 teachers and 173 schools. From the year 1939-40 there has been a substantial increase in the amount required for the conduct of education in primary, secondary and technical schools. For instance, the audited figures for net expenditure for 1939-40 were £3,746,484 and the estimated figures for this year, which are very close to what will be the audited figures later, amount to £5,220,000. The total amount spent on primary education since before the war has risen by 39 per cent. In the case of secondary education the audited figure for 1939-40 was £462,577. This has increased to £871,650, an increase of 88 per cent. In the case of technical education the audited figure for 1939-40 was £315,174 and this has risen to £599,460, indicating an increase since the year before the war of about 90 per cent.
For many years I have been criticising the education Estimates generally on particular lines and amongst the things which I had to complain about was, first and foremost, the enormous number of children in some of the classes, particularly in some of the bigger centres in the cities. Another thing was the absence of any clear systematic information in the Departmental report of what exactly was being achieved in any particular subject or any particular branch. I think, unfortunately, that the last report of the Department of Education which we have is for the year 1943-44. Considerable difficulty has held up the printing of these reports and that situation is most unsatisfactory. I will do my best to see that the reports which are already due are speeded up, and I would be glad of any assistance by way of suggestions as to how the reports could be made more informative. I will endeavour to see in any way that I can that more information will be given in the annual report.
Again I have had cause of complaint in the fact that sufficient attention was not paid to the bodies engaged in education who are close up to the field of work in the schools and who have recommendations to make. I want it to be understood that I think the function of the Minister for Education is a very, very narrow one and that he cannot discharge his functions properly without a very considerable amount of educational thought amongst those who are engaged in education throughout the country; unless there is a systematic understanding that the educational experience of those engaged in the various branches of education throughout the country should be carefully watched and carefully listened to; and unless Departmental policy, administration, supervision and other assistance are moulded so as to help the people who are doing the work.
It may be thought from time to time that a political slant has been taken on educational work. I would ask Deputies not to burden either educational discussions or any considerations of our educational work by suggestions that there is any ground for introducing politics of any Party into the discussion on educational matters.
I begin to feel a considerable amount of sympathy for the former Minister when I see some of the things that I come up against at present. I was asked a supplementary question to-day with regard to the new spelling. As far as I know, or as far as I can find out, the whole policy of the new spelling of Irish was pushed on top of the Department of Education without any previous consultation with the Department or with those engaged in education. I do not think that that is fair to the Minister, the Department, the teaching community or to those who are interested in the language of the country. I sometimes feel too that an educational policy has been pushed by pressure groups of one kind or another outside. I think that we should all try to avoid that and I would like to plead with the Deputies on the far side not to be led, at this particular stage at least, into criticisms such as Deputy Kennedy published in the Irish Press of the 12th of April last. He said: “It takes 50 years for the revival of a language through the schools to become manifest. Now when we are half way through that period the stalwarts who in vain held their protest meetings 20 odd years ago denouncing ‘compulsory Irish’ in the schools are coming into their own. We will get a report full of paddings and trimmings which will amount to nothing. The kernel, however, will be the abolition of the present system of teaching the language in the schools and the substitution of a half hour's instruction with Irish relegated to the sphere of the dead languages. The proposed Council of Education is nothing pure and simple but an instrument to make war on the language.”
I plead with the Deputies on the far side that in discussing educational policy generally they will face up to the realities of the situation and, before they introduce a political line into their discussion, that they will wait and see what educational policy is being pursued in the country. He went on to write:—
"The Fine Gael Party, whose contemptuous sneers are evident when anybody attempts to speak in Irish in the House, will implement this report through the Minister who in his time did a lot for the language."
We are at a transition time in education and quite a number of problems of one kind or another require to be discussed. We will meet difficulties from the financial side, from the building side, but if we have the true spirit of education and if we appraise where responsibility and rights come in the matter of education we surely will make the best use of our opportunities and we surely can mould an Irish education that will suit our people and strengthen them to face their general economic work.
One of the things that the new Government as a whole has subscribed to, I think, generally, is the spirit that breathes in the Vocational Organisation Commission's Report, that is, that those engaged in industry, those engaged in particular crafts, those engaged in commerce, in its various sections, those engaged in education, are the people who are best equipped to make a contribution in their own line to the well-being of the country. One of the recommendations that has been made by the commission is that a council of education should be set up as an advisory council to advise the Minister. In paragraph 540 the recommendation is made:—
"The council should contain representatives of parents, whose interests in education are preponderant, and of all the bodies directly concerned in the various branches of education, religious and secular, viz., the churches, universities, headmasters and teachers. We suggest that there should also be representatives of agriculture, industry and commerce, the educational needs of which are of vital concern to the country."
I have indicated in speaking elsewhere in the country, and I would like to make it clear now, that in setting up a council of education—which I propose to do at the earliest suitable moment, and that will be inside three or four months' time I hope—I am not approaching it by looking to various sections or groups or organisations in the country to appoint representatives on that council. I would ask Deputies to read that part of the Foreword to the Report of the Commission on Vocational Organisation signed by the reverend chairman in which he says, over his own signature:—
"The report is a serious effort to show how abstract principles can be applied to the concrete realities of our complex social and economic life. But it does not pretend to provide detailed drawings or blue prints for the erection and interior decoration of an elaborate structure conceived after the manner of a material building which is to be occupied at once. It has in more than one case made it clear that vocational organisations should develop from existing institutions and follow the laws of organic, vital growth, without violent breach of continuity. Not all the plans and suggestions in the report are put forward as immediately operable: some must await the development of others as their firm foundation. Many details and proposals have been left to the discretion of some administrative or vocational body in order to secure that growth be guided by increasing experience."
The type of council that I consider we require at the present moment is a council that, by its presence and by the inspiration that it will give forth, will induce a vocational organisation devoted to educational thought among the various groups that are working in education at the present time. There are quite a number of bodies, small and large, working at various small or various large facets of our education at the present time who have their own particular contribution to make that will be induced to make that contribution by the setting up of a council such as I envisage. They can best make their contribution through a council such as I envisage by developing their thought and filtering their thought through that council.
In other words, the council that I contemplate is a council that would not be a directly representative council. It would be a council of men and women with experience and standing in the educational world—each of them bringing to the council table ripe experience to mingle with the experience of others around the council table and radiating an educational ideal that will inspire every branch of education to work to that situation that we all want, that is, an adult people strengthened in character and trained through the schools to be able in their various walks of life to make the fullest possible contribution to their own personal economy and to the general national wealth. I think that should be a small council of persons each of whom would bring a very considerable amount of experience and character and prestige to the general work of the council.
One of the foremost functions, I think, that that council would perform would be to emphasise the rights and the responsibilities of parents in the matter of education, to make clear the field of authority that belonged to the Church, to make clear that, whatever the function of the State was, it had no power to interfere either with the rights of the parents or with the authority of the Church and that the main part of its function was to help to provide, in the general economic, social and political interest of the country, the machinery that could be provided only by the State to serve parents and Church and people generally. In looking at the responsibility of the Minister for Education in that scheme I had to take cognisance of the fact that there was an administrative side, and a supervisory side to be looked after, and that there was the teaching side. I think all sections of the House will agree that the only function of the administrative and the supervising side is to see that those who are teaching are put in the best possible position to see that their work will be a success. In that particular spirit, there were some matters which called for attention.
The primary teachers are by far the biggest question, in that they lay the foundations for the rest and have a very fundamental part to play. When we consider that a very considerable percentage of the young people of the country are depending entirely upon primary education, we see how important it is that the machinery of teaching on the primary side should be as perfect as possible. Everyone is aware that, over a number of years, there has been a certain amount of conflict between the primary teachers and the Department on a number of matters. One important matter is the type of inspection carried on and certain difficulties the teachers have regarding it. Last year, or the year before, we had the regrettable strike of the teachers in the City of Dublin, supported by the teachers all over the country. I have been able to remove some of the small difficulties there. No one will object to the steps that have been taken or will be taken to wipe out any recollection or any effect of the strike.
When I came into the Department, a conference had been called to deal with the question of rating as "highly efficient" of a certain number of teachers. It was one of the matters of dispute between the Department and the teachers for a very long time. A conference has been held between representatives of the teachers, of the various ecclesiastical bodies concerned with education, and the Department. I am not yet in a position to say what the result of the conferences that have taken place will be. I want the matter to be examined from every point of view, but I think it is of the greatest possible importance that every point of conflict which causes want of harmony between the teachers and the Department should be settled, so that the supervising machinery of the Department will be able to do its work in a harmonious and effective way. Those problems which are troubling the educational mind at present will have to be faced by us here. I am not sufficiently well versed in the working of the Department at present to outline those problems in their entirety, or to propose any solutions for them. However, at the earliest possible moment I shall try to make a review of the general situation.
Deputies will remember that a couple of years ago a commission on youth unemployment in the City of Dublin was set up, presided over by His Grace the Archbishop of Dublin. That commission has not yet reported, but it has submitted an interim report which indicates that the commission will recommend the raising of the school-leaving age. We have at various times recommended the raising of the school-leaving age, but the commission, in its brief interim report, has indicated that that will involve very elaborate changes in the curriculum both for boys and girls, and when their final report is issued they may have some recommendations to make with regard to that. Independently, the former Minister for Education set up a departmental body to consider what changes were likely to be required in the education machinery generally; and an outline of their report is available which indicates that they, too, have come to definite conclusions regarding the general educational programme and the ages at which particular types of education should be given. The report showed a tendency to consider that primary education should terminate about the age of 12, or a little after that, and that the children from the primary schools would then either pursue a course which would lead them to the secondary schools or another which would mix general education with a more practical education. That involves serious questions, both for urban districts and for rural districts, but I think it is in accordance with the generally changed outlook on education. Therefore, many questions will have to be considered before very long which will involve the curriculum for children up to 12 years of age—the question of whether primary education as at present understood would stop at 12, the curriculum that will have to be covered by those not going on for secondary education and the relationship between any development in that particular direction and the work that is at present being done by the continuation and technical schools throughout the country.
The work on the technical side has been developing in a rather satisfactory way in many areas, even though under difficulties. If Deputies are interested, as I think they should be interested, in the work that is being done or the policy that is intended to be served by technical education, I would recommend them very strongly to obtain a copy of Memorandum V. 40, published about November, 1942, on the Organisation of Whole-time Continuation Courses in Borough, Urban and County Areas. They will there find set out the general approach of the Department and the relationship of technical and continuation teachers in the country to that particular work.
Would the Minister say if this is a Government publication?
It is Memorandum V. 40. Deputies can obtain copies through the Dáil office. I would particularly direct attention to page 15, where, dealing with education in rural areas, it says:
"It is better to set up and maintain a small school with a few young persons receiving an education suited to rural conditions than to fill a building twice the size with pupils preparing for migration to the city. The rural continuation school must be used to strengthen, not to weaken, the life of the countryside."
There is one thing particularly we must concentrate on in our education policy, namely, to see that the life of the countryside is strengthened and that special attention is paid to the primary schools in the rural areas and the extension of continuation work in the rural areas. There has been a very praiseworthy development in the extension of continuation and technical classes in rural areas and further development in that way is very desirable. Deputies will have an opportunity of seeing, at the Spring Show this week, an exhibit of such technical work, which we have been able to build up there, thanks to the vocational education committees throughout the country and their officers.
In a number of years a systematic development has taken place of voluntary schemes for training apprentices. In nine large urban areas last year there were 200 railway apprentices receiving technical training through the schools. Some 90 apprentices got special training at Kevin Street. At seven large urban centres apprentices were trained in mechanical engineering. In quite a number of centres throughout the country apprentices to motor garage work got trained. In Wexford there was a special scheme of rural craftsmanship last year which was very successful and I hope it will be copied in some of the other counties. In Clonmel, Monaghan and Tipperary special farriery classes were carried on. These have done magnificent work and they were praised very much. A class will be held shortly for that purpose in Cork.
A satisfactory development on the technical side has been that new examinations for a certificate have been held throughout the country and 1,475 people were successful in getting certificates for their work in the technical schools. This arises out of the fact that employers are becoming more and more anxious to get evidence, when employing young people, that they have a certain standard of education. It is rather interesting, at a time when there is so much criticism of examinations and certificates, that in a purely voluntary way 1,475 pupils of the technical schools have sat for examination and have received certificates. It is also interesting to note that of the 1,475 who sat, in accordance with the types of classes they attend, they sat for examinations in various technical subjects and English and Irish were optional subjects.
For those interested in the progress of the Irish language, it will be satisfactory to learn that nearly as many sat for the optional examination in Irish as sat in English. Out of the 1,475 who succeeded, 969 sat for the Irish examination and 617 passed. I refer now to the voluntary schemes for training apprentices. When the public know more about what is being done in that direction, I think there will be a greater demand for apprenticeship schemes through the technical schools. My impression of the work done there is that they will be well able to meet any demands that come their way.
There has been in some rural areas a particularly satisfactory development in that the continuation school is becoming the centre of a kind of social, economic and educational life quite beyond what one might have expected from the establishment in areas of just ordinary classes. Around the continuation schools in certain rural areas there is developing an intellectual life which is bringing the highest results in a technical way into the actual life of the people. I would ask for the general interest of Deputies in what is going on in their areas under their vocational bodies.
The question of Irish in the schools, the use of the language there, is one which has given rise to very serious criticism and a certain amount of trouble. There has been a demand for a full investigation into the position. There has been grave dissatisfaction among the teaching fraternity generally and also among parents that a systematic and well thought out report by the primary teachers has been ignored. That report is some years old. There has been a suggestion that a certain body should be set up to examine the position of Irish in the schools. I have thought it desirable, however, to make a personal examination into that matter and I am causing to be examined at the present time the position of Irish in the primary schools in this way: I am examining in what way Irish is used as a matter of instruction and of communication in the primary schools.
Regulations are issued in a very rigid way, but my experience generally, apart altogether from my experience in the Department, has been that the regulations that exist cannot effectively be carried out. They are a source of suspicion and of difficulty. To some extent both the teachers and the inspectors try beyond what they think is right to carry out the regulations. I am having the position of Irish as a medium of instruction and communication in the primary schools systematically examined. When I have examined the results of the present inquiries and have seen some of the work myself, I promise Deputies I shall let them and the people know what changes, if any, ought to take place, and I think certain changes ought to take place. If there is to be a public discussion, I shall offer a clear statement of the situation, on which Deputies can base their discussions and their criticisms. At the present moment there is a very considerable amount of criticism that is not based on fact at all. I said that as far as the language is concerned special attention must be paid to education in the purely Irish-speaking districts. I am proposing to make the Irish-speaking districts a special area for inspection purposes. That may mean perhaps that isolated schools or isolated parishes here and there may come within the ambit of that special inspection area. I think it is imperative that all schools in purely Irish-speaking districts where Irish is the natural language of the home and the community should be placed under a special inspectorial eye from the point of view of primary education. I feel that more than educational matters will be beneficially affected by that and that the inspectors will form a focal centre of information with regard to the general condition of the community and that we in turn may get through these areas a focal centre around which we can build up in order to integrate from the economic point of view the people in these districts. I hope that gradually additional schools and parishes will be brought in under that inspection in order to bring about as far as possible an extension of Irish-speaking districts.
At the present moment I think that every State Department would define the Irish-speaking districts in a totally different way. From the point of view of making Irish a vigorous and living vernacular a special inspectorate of the Department of Education would be a better form of supervision than anything else which might be evolved. In so far as there does not seem to be any particular Department of State which accepts full responsibility for the position of the language or the Gaeltacht area I would like to take upon myself all responsibility for that until such time as there is a further allocation of responsibility in the matter. I would like to assure all Deputies who have a particular interest in the Irish-speaking districts and in the rebirth of the language either as regards education or administration that I will at all times give them a sympathetic hearing. The question of Irish spelling has been raised here to-day. The last Government set up a special body to examine that whole question and the results of that examination have been put down in black and white in a publication issued by the Government. That publication can be obtained by Deputies merely for the asking. Its title is "Litriú na Gaeilge". As I said in reply to a supplementary question to-day, it comes down to the fundamental question of how one is going to spell individual words. I think it would be desirable if people interested in the matter would address themselves to the problem in that way when making any recommendations they may have to make. When this new spelling was introduced discussions took place with the publishing houses in this country who publish educational books. It was arranged with the publishing houses that they would accept the new spelling and that they would use it for special classes of school books in the future. A circular has gone out to all primary schools indicating that from certain years ahead books printed in the new spelling will be systematically introduced into the school curriculum.
It has been indicated to the schools that in the school year 1948-49 the books used in standards 1 and 2 will be in the new spelling, while the other standards will go on progressively. In the year 1949-50 the new spelling will be used in standards 3 and 4; in the year 1950-51 the new spelling will be used in standards 5 and 6 and by the year 1951-52 the new spelling will be introduced in standards 7 and 8.
It is quite clear that the time had come when some systematization of Irish spelling had to be done. The scheme is moving in the particular way I have indicated. I would ask for the co-operation of all in making this a success and I would ask for the co-operation of all to bring about an improvement in the situation. I remember when Fr. O'Leary came here to Dublin about 1909 to receive the freedom of the City of Dublin in the Mansion House. At a public meeting in the Mansion House he told us of his experiences. He described to us how he began writing Irish. He said that when he first started writing he went strutting around like David when he put on Saul's armour. He told us that he got over the difficulties:—"Do thosnuigheas ar a gceann agus ar a' n'earbhaill a bhaint díobh agus ar a mbolganna do ghearradh asta." That was the way he brought about his own simplification of Irish spelling—he began with the old words, cut the heads and the tails off them, and cut the bellies out of them. In the new spelling nothing so drastic, nothing so vigorous and nothing so far-reaching as that has been done. That may be because Fr. O'Leary and others and the Dáil translation staff here from the very early days were gradually and systematically bringing to Irish spelling a certain simplicity. We must now face up to the problem in a systematic and co-operative way. That is the best basis on which to work.
There are a number of problems with which we shall have to deal as we go along. We want a council of education in order to centralise educational idealism and educational direction. We want to have things so arranged that people will feel that education is pure both in its theory and in its practice and is completely divorced from any form of State idolatry or mere politics. The fact that I propose beginning in the way I have suggested ought to induce in the various classes engaged in education in the country a certain educational activity. The council will in no way cut them off from direct contact with the Ministry. The setting up of a council of education is not in any way the shedding by the Minister for Education of the responsibilities that are truly and properly his but it means that no Minister for Education or no State machine will interfere with rights that are not properly his and it will secure that educational direction will be in the hands of those who are experienced in the practical work of education. It has already been indicated that the council can confine itself entirely to educational matters; that it will be an advisory council to the Minister and that such matters as pay, or conditions of service, or anything else like that will be dealt with through other machinery.
There may be other matters upon which Deputies will consider I ought to inform them. However, if they will let me know, I hope, before the discussion is concluded, to get them any information they may desire.
Tairgim:—
Go gcuirfear an Meastachán thar n-ais chun aithbhreithnithe.
Chuireas an rún seo ar an bpáipéar chun a thuille eolais fháil ón Aire, más féidir, sar a críochnófar an díospóireacht. Tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil mórán ama aige le gach uile thaobh den oideachas a scrúdú, ach, mar sin fhéin, le blianta anuas, labhair sé ar na Meastacháin anseo. Chuir sé an-tsuim i gceisteanna a bhaineas le oideachas, agus go mór mór sna modhanna atá in úsáid sna scoileanna chun an Ghaeilge a chur chun cinn. Labhair sé, freisin, faoi chuid de na pointí a luaidh sé anseo i dtaobh aoise fágála scoile, Comhairle an Oideachais, leathnú scéime gairm-oideachais, ranganna móra, agus mar sin de, agus, mara gcuirfeadh sé as dó, ba mhaith liom, más féidir, roinnt ceisteanna a chur air, le súil go mbeidh sé indon iad do fhreagairt.
Tagann an tAire ar an gceist seo faoin nGaeilge sna scoileanna ó thaobh amháin, agus tagaimse, sílim, orthu, ó thaoibh eile. Is dócha gurb é an chuspóir chéana atá i gceist ag an mbeirt againn, ach go bhfuilimid ag dearcadh—nach bhfuilimíd ag trácht air-ón bpoinnte céana. Is dóigh liom, nuair nach bhfuil aon ócáid eile atá sáthach oiriúnach chun an cheist a phlé, nach bhfuil sé as tslí—agus bhí sé de nós againn nuair a thiocfaidh Meastacháin na Roinne Oideachais ós comhair na Dála gach blian—tagairt faoi leith a dhéanamh do cheist na Gaeilge. D'fhéadfaí an cheist seo a phlé, cur i gcás, ar Vóta an Taoisigh, ach i slí éigin, cheap gach aoinne a raibh suim acu sa nGaeilge, gur bhain an cheist le hobair na scoile agus cúrsaí oideachais i gcoitinne, níos mó ná aon rud eile. Is dóigh liomsa go raibh sé de mhí-ádh orainn sa Teach seo gur cheapamar fhéin nach raibh sé de dhualgas ar aon Roinn eile a cion féin a dhéanamh ar son na Gaeilge, ach bheith ag brath ar an Roinn Oideachais agus ar na scoileanna chun an obair ar fad a dhéanamh.
Mar a dúirt cuid de na múinteoirí iad fhéin le goirid, béidir, nuair a thiocfaidh an scrúdú so atá i gceist ag an Aire, agus má déantar an scrúdú ar obair na scoile, go dtiocfaí chuig na breithe nach féidir níos mó a dhéanamh, go bhfuil obair mhaith ar siul, tríd is tríd sna scoileanna. Siné an tuairim atá agamsa, ach leasmuigh de na scoileanna, siní an áit a bhfuil an trioblóid ar fad.
Nuair a théas na daltaí scoile amach ón scoil, tá an t-atmosphere Gallda mór thimpeall orthu; ní chloiseann siad an Ghaeilge agus is deacair dóibh áit fháil chun an méid Gaeilge atá acu a chleachtadh. Mar sin, is eagal liom go ndéanann siad dearmad ar an nGaeilge. Annsin, cuirtear an milleán ar na scoileanna. Ní dóigh liom gur ceart é sin. Más féidir a rá nach bhfuightear an spiorad cheart ins na scoileanna chun an Ghaeilge a choinneáil ar siúl agus chun bheith i ndáiríribh faoi labhairt na Gaeilge nuair a fhágas siad na scoileanna, sin rud eile; ach má táthar ag déanamh mionscrúdú nó taighde faoi cheist na Gaeilge sna scoileanna, tá súil agam go gcuirfear díograsacht agus spiorad na múinteoirí san áireamh chomh maith leis na modhanna, mar braitheann aithbheochaint na teangan ar fad ar an spiorad atá sa múinteoir. D'fhéadfadh beirt oide bheith ag obair ins an slí chéana, den éifeacht chéana, agus béidir go dtárlóchadh go mbeadh obair na scoile faoin duine nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge chomh maith aige agus atá ag an oide eile, níos fearr i bhfad níos fearr ó thaobh na Gaeilge, mar bheadh spiorad níos fearr ina chroí agus bheadh sé i ndáiríribh faoin rud. Agus muna bhfuilimíd i ndáiríribh, ní éireoidh linn.
Ní dhéanfaidh sé aon díobháil a chuir in a luí ar mhuintir na tíre, nuair atá an Meastachán seo faoi dhíospóireacht againn, go bhfuil sé mar chuspóir againn agus leagtha síos le blianta fada go bhfuil sé de chuspóir ag an náisiún, an Ghaeilge a chur ar ais mar theanga labhartha na tíre. Má tá an chuspóir sin againn uilig, má táimíd i ndáiríribh ar an taobh sin den scéal, is dóigh liom go dtiocfaidh gach uile rud eile i gceart. Má tá daoine i ndáiríribh i dtaoibh na Gaeilge, d'fhéadfaidís a thuiscint dá mbeadh daoine ann ag déanamh raic go bhfuil slí níos fearr; ach is cuma cad iad na modhanna a bheas againn muna bhfuil an spiorad cheart san obair agus na múinteoirí i ndáiríribh, agus lucht ceannais na Roinne Oideachais go mór mór agus lucht an Rialtais, freisin, i ndáiríribh, ní fhéadfaimís bheith ag súil go mbeidh an gnáth-dhuine thíos faoin tír i ndáiríribh i dtaobh an scéil. Caithfear treoir agus deá-shompla agus spiorad d'fháil ó na daoine atá i gceannas. Má tá sin le fáil, d'fhéadfaí a rá go mbeimídne, ar aon dtaobh seo den Teach, lán-tsásta cuidiú leis an obair agus le haon iarracht atá ar siul ó thaobh an Aire nó na Roinne chun an Ghaeilge a chur ar aghaidh agus scéal na Gaeilge d'fheabhsú.
Ní dóigh liom gur gá dhom dul siar— rinne mé sin go mion minic sa Teach seo—ach amháin go bhfuil Teachtaí nua sa Teach agus béidir go mba chóir a chur in a luí orthu nach inniu ná inné atá an beartas seo ar siul, ach ón am a tháinig an Rialtas Gaelach isteach, agus nach ar mo ghuaille-se ná ar ghuaille an Aire atá anois ann, nó aon Aire eile, a bhí obair na Gaeilge agus dualgais na Gaeilge, ach ar chomhdhála a tháinig le chéile, ní uair amháin ach cúpla uair, agus ó na múinteoirí náisiúnta a tháinig an chéad chomhdháil, a mhol don Rialtas nua féachaint chuige go n-árdófaí staid na Gaeilge mar ábhar teagaisc agus ábhar scoile. Mhol siad go láidir í a chur ar aghaidh mar úirlis teagaisc, go mór mór i ranganna na naíonán; agus feidhm faoi leith a bhaint as an nGaeilge chun stair agus tír-eolas na hÉireann a mhúineadh.
Nuair a thárla an dara comhdháil, lean siad ar an tslí chéanna chun Gaelú na tíre a chur ar aghaidh agus teanga na hÉireann a thabhairt ar ais trí obair na scoileanna—b'in é príomhmhodh obair na scoile chun an chuspóir a chur i bhfeidhm agus feidhm faoi leith a bhaint as an nGaeilge mar ghnáth-theanga na scoile, mar úirlis chun teagase agus cultúr agus oideacheas i gcoitinne a chur ar aghaidh freisin. Tiocfaidh an uair sin nach dtig linn go gcuirfí an spiorad náisiúnta níos fearr agus níos bríomhara, mar bhí gluaiseacht iontach ar siúl agus faoi lán-tseol sa tír seo. Bhí na daoine óga ar fad páirteach san ngluaiseacht, agus ghlac siad uilig le aithbheochaint na Gaeilige mar cheann de na príomh-chuspóirí a bhí i gceist sa ngluaiseacht sin. Ón taobh amuigh, ní raibh siad ag brath ar an spiorad— bhí an spiorad ann, níos fearr, béidir, ná mar atá anois. Ceaptar anois gur cheart chuile rud fhágaint faoin Rialtas. Idir an dá linn, tá tionchur na nGall ag éirí níos láidre agus níos treise in aghaidh an lae. Tá na pictiúirí, na páipéirí nuacha agus rudaí eile ann —an craolachán—ag cur isteach ar na tuairimí a bhíodh againn de ghnáth sa tír seo agus an dul ar aghaidh agus na smaointí a bhíodh againn faoi ár síbhialtacht fhéin.
Tá faithchíos orm, muna dtiubharfar cúram faoi leith don obair, go mbádhfar sinn sa tuille sin ata ag brú isteach orainn. Tá mí-chinnteacht sna scoileanna, go mór mór na scoileanna a d'oibrigh a seacht ndícheall ar son na Gaeilge le fiche blian agus níos mó anuas. Na múinteoirí, na daoine cródha, na daoine breághtha sin, a thosaigh ar obair na Gaeilge agus múineadh trí Ghaeilge sna meánscoileanna, ní raibh téacs-leabhra acu agus b'éigean dóibh chuile rud a dhéanamh as a stuaim fhéin, agus bhí siad i ndon dul ar aghaidh agus d'éirigh leo chomh maith ins na scrúduithe agus d'éirigh leis na scoileanna eile nár thug a lán ama don Ghaeilge.
Ba mhaith liom nach dtiochfadh aon droch-mhisneach ar na daoine breághtha sin agus nach mbeadh aon mhíchinnteacht ann ach go bhfeicfeadh siad go bhfuil an Rialtas agus an tAire i ndáiríribh agus nach ndéanfar aon athrú go dtí go mbeidh comhairle glactha, ní hamháin leis na daoine atá ag fáil locht—agus níl a fhios agam cad tá taobh thiar den mhilleán agus de na lochtanna—ach leis na daoine a bhfuil cleachtadh faoi leith acu ar an obair, na daoine atá ag déanamh na hoibre trí Ghaeilge le blianta fada agus a bhfuil a gcroí san obair.
Má ghlacann an tAire comhairle leo siúd, tá mé cinnte go bhfuighfidh sé amach, má tá sé in aon aimhreas—agus thuig mé ón méid adúirt sé go bhfuil tuairim aige fhéin—nach bhfuil an ceart ag cuid de na daoine ar chor ar bith a bhíos ag fáil lochta ar na scoileanna faoi obair na Gaeilge. Ceann de na rudai atá i gceist againn ins na scoileanna a chur 'na luí ar na daltai gur beó-theanga í an Ghaeilge agus go bhféadfai í a chur i n-oireamhnaighe do chúrsai na linne seo. Ins an seanám nuair a cuireadh Connradh na Gaeilge ar bun, dubhradh nach bhféadfai aon rud a dhéanamh leis an nGaeilge, nach raibh innte ach teanga do sclábhuighthe agus d'iasgairi i n-áiteacha iargculta ins na sleíbhthe agus ins na gleannta.
Caithfidh muid an Ghaeilge a chur faoi réim, agus má chíonn na daltai scoile nach bhfuil meas ar an nGaeilge ag lucht na scol, ag lucht stiúruighthe an oideachais agus ag lucht an Rialtais, ni bheidh aon mheas aca fhéin ar an nGaeilge, fiú amháin má gheibheann siad sompla maith ó n-a tuismitheoirí. Tá an t-aos óg ag braith ar an sompla, ar an stiúrú a gheibheann siad agus ar na rudai a chíonn siad thart timcheall ortha. Muna bhfeiceann siad an cleachtadh is cuma faoi'n teagasc agus muna bhfheiceann siad an teagasc i bhfeidhm i ndáríre, ni bheidh siad sásta bheith i ndáríre iad fhein nuair a thiocfhas an t-ám nuair a fhéadfas siad fhéin a gcionn fhéin a dhéanamh.
Ní thig leis an nGaeilge—nó le h-aon teanga eile—maireachtaint, ni thig leíthe bheith béo d'éagmhais onóra agus árdmheas. Ni féidir an t-árd-mheas seo a bheith i réim indiú d'éagmhais an oideachais. Sin é an fáth ar luí an Roinn Oideachais go láidir i gcómhnuidhe ar an bpolasaí faoi mhúineadh tré Ghaeilge—i dtreó go mbeidh mórmheas ag na daltai ar an nGaeilge, go bhfheicfhidh siad go bhfuil abhfhad níos mó i gceist, agus go bhfuil an Ghaeilge mar ghléas oibre iomlán gcúrsai oideachais agus cultúra na tíre. Sílim gur rud an-thábhachtach é sin, mar tá fhios againn leath-chead bliain o shoin nuair a bhí an Ghaeilge i n-ísle brigh, nach raibh meas ag na daoine ins na ceanntrachta Gaelacha uirthi. Cheap siad nach raibh i ndán do'n chainnteoir dúthchais ach bochtannas agus an sclábhuidheacht.
Ba chóir do Rialtas Gaelach a theaspáint go bhfuil rud nios fearr ná sin i ndan don'n chainnteoir dúthchais, go bhfuil na postanna is fearr sa stát le fagháil aige, go mbeidh buntáisti ag aoinne a bheireann am do chleachtadh na Gaeilge agus nach mbeidh an t-am sin cailte aige ach go bhfuigeadh sé rud eicint as. Sin ceann de na fáthanna go dtagann cúrsai poilitidheachta isteach i n-obair na Gaeilge. Tá cuid againn a cheapas go mba chóir buntáistí a thabhairt do dhaoine go bhfuil an Ghaeilge go maith aca agus atá i ndon a n-obair a dhéanamh tré Ghaeilge, agus tá daoine eile a cheapas nach ceart é sin.
I was just pointing out, a Chinn Chomhairle, that in the discussion of the Estimates for the Department of Education, the question of Irish generally looms large in the picture. The reason for that is that the policy of the revival of Irish and its restoration as the spoken language of the country is closely associated with the drive that has been going on in the schools since the Irish Government was first established. I have mentioned that the policy of reviving our national language was sought to be operated more speedily and more effectively by utilising the schools as the primary agency for the dissemination of Irish and that it was with that end in view that, in the initial stages, the policy of extending Irish gradually as the school language and as the medium of instruction was emphasised. So far as I know that policy has been the same all through. I have been suggesting that if there is any question of an investigation it would be well to take the advice of those who, I think, can claim to have real experience of this matter— the schools which have made a name for themselves and the teachers who have shown what can be done, in particular Irish schools, over the long period of years that has elapsed. I think they are in a position to give their views and they are in a position to show from their practical knowledge and experience what can be done. Before any decisions are taken I would emphasise that the views of those who are, I claim, in the best position to offer views on the teaching of Irish, or teaching through Irish, should be obtained.
It has, of course, been suggested that there is widespread dissatisfaction about our educational organisation. Of course, every individual who chooses may consider himself an expert, and may make pronouncements upon education, but, in the long run, we have to go back to those whose training, experience and avocation is connected with the work of the schools, if we are going to get valuable advice. The schools are really only an adjunct of the family. It is often forgotten that the family is the primary natural educator and, perhaps, family education is of more importance in the world to-day than at any time in the past. It was always most important because the education one receives in the home is more fundamental than that which one may receive elsewhere. Parents have been often described, and rightly so, as the real educators. It is their right and duty to provide for the education of their children. The responsibility is on them in the first place. The development of a sound character is, after all, the great purpose of education. The noblest fruit of education, it has been said, is the man or woman of character. There has been a definite reduction, a lowering of standards and a worsening of discipline in recent years. We have not suffered a great deal from it, thank God, in this country but in the unsettled state of the world not knowing what may happen this year or in the coming years, we should be very foolish indeed if we did not realise that in the stress of world crisis, perhaps in the crisis of war itself, the very worst elements in human nature are brought out. In order that they should be combatted, met and overthrown, it is necessary that the greatest possible attention should be given to the training of character. Fundamentals, as I have said, are more important than ever. That the purpose of our life here on this earth and our spiritual needs should be emphasised is of more importance than at any time we can remember in any case.
Another point I should like to make is that some people are under the impression that the system of education here is a State system. The Minister in his opening remarks seemed to indicate that one of the purposes of the establishment of a consultative body for education would be to make it quite clear that there would be no interference by the State beyond, I take it, what is reasonable, legal and acknowledged to be within the ambit of the State's authority and jurisdiction. That is of course laid down in the Constitution. There has never been any question of going beyond that and, as I have stated myself on many occasions, I do not think any Government here in present circumstances or so far as we can foresee, would be likely to be permitted to interfere with the rights of parents. It is certainly quite proper that parents' rights and the rights of the Church should be emphasised. There has been no question at any time of interfering with either as far as I know. If the Minister has in mind that the setting up of the council is necessary in order to dispose of the danger of that occurring, I do not know whether it is really necessary from that point of view. I think we have always had the most cordial relations between the Church and the State in this country and I think that will continue.
The administration and supervision of the work of education by the Department has always been, so far as I am aware, friendly, sympathetic and understanding. I could not understand the statement of the Minister that nobody nowadays seemed to think that education should be left to a single man. If that meant that the Minister for Education was having complete control of education or that, in fact, he was in a position to enforce his own decisions arbitrarily, I do not think it was a correct presentation of the decision. The position has been that consultation has gone on all the time with the bodies concerned in education—associations of managers and teachers for example. Even with the consultative body which the Minister proposes to set up, I assume that since it is necessary for the ordinary administration of the work of the Department, there will be the usual day-to-day consultation, not alone with individual managers and teachers, who come into the Department to do their business, and to discuss their problems, but that there will be, of course, separate consultation with the bodies who represent these different interests. The Minister made it clear, in the statement he made to the Teachers' Congress, that the new body will be a purely advisory one.
I take it that the Minister will not be bound to accept the recommendations of that body if he does not agree with them. I take it also that he will be entirely free to determine the questions upon which he would like to have the opinion of the council. From every point of view, I think it would be more valuable if particular questions were referred to them rather than if they embarked upon a kind of roving commission. That is, of course, a matter for the Minister who is in charge of the policy. But, if my view is of any assistance to him, I would suggest that particular questions ought to be referred; that from very general investigations or inquiries perhaps not very much value has been got. Certainly the experience elsewhere with some of these bodies does not lead one to believe that a great deal is accomplished, more especially if some particular aspect of education or some special terms of reference are not given.
The Minister made it clear also in his speech to the Teachers' Congress that this body would have no administrative duties and would have nothing to do with finance. That, of course, as he acknowledged, is not in accordance at all with the recommendations of the Vocational Organisation Commission's report. For example, how the representatives of the parents are to be brought on to this body is a nice question. The commission itself does not explain how that difficulty could be got over. Perhaps in the long run all that can be done is to assume that those persons on the council who are themselves parents, who are in touch with other parents, and who can look at these matters from the parents' point of view, not necessarily from the point of view always of the expert educationist, but simply from the point of view of the ordinary parent, the ordinary mother and father, will represent the parents. Perhaps there will be no other way to secure representation.
The Minister has also stated that he does not propose to regard this council as one upon which particular bodies interested in education or taking part in educational work should be represented. I understood from his previous speech that his intention was to have a small number of persons, fitted by experience and training, to constitute this body, not a large body. Of course, if every interest which might claim representation had to be represented it would be quite unwieldy. But a difficulty will arise if some bodies feel that they are represented on the personnel of the commission and others are not. Moreover, there will be various interests, leaving out the question of representation for agriculture and industry, rural and urban representation, for example. According to the personnel of a commission which was appointed recently, one would imagine that the Government felt that only experts residing here in the City of Dublin and persons competent to deal with the particular matters from an academic and scientific point of view are the only ones responsible. But very often on these bodies horsesense, commonsense, comes from the ordinary citizen, rural or urban, and not always from the expert. If a council or commission is composed entirely of experts they are in grave danger, in their anxiety to examine closely the more specialised aspects of the problem, of not seeing the wood for the trees, as they say, and forgetting what the ordinary mortal would see, would be interested in, and would try to get decisions upon.
The constitution of this body will be a difficult matter and the success of it will depend a great deal upon the personnel. I hope that the Minister, in constituting this body, will bear in mind what I have said with regard to Irish. If the question of Irish is being dealt with, if inquiry is being made regarding the methods of teaching Irish in the schools and the best possible advice is being sought, I hope that consideration will be given to the advice of those who have had long experience of this matter, and whose bona fides regarding the language and whose genuine interest in it cannot be questioned.
The Minister stated that a certain arrangement had been come to with regard to averages in schools. Hitherto the position had been that the staffing of national schools depended upon the average attendances. A new arrangement has now been come to by which in future the numbers on rolls, subject to certain conditions, will be accepted. That should mean a definite alleviation of the position of the teachers in the country who felt that their posts were in jeopardy. I am informed that in some of the large Dublin schools there is a feeling that the basis of the new arrangement will not be so satisfactory from their point of view. I should have thought that it would have been recognised—and I hope it will—that under the new arrangement no school, whether it be large or small, shall find itself worse off as regards staffing than before the new arrangement was come to. There is no doubt that the position of the teachers in the rural schools will be definitely improved. I cannot understand however—I hope it merely arises from a misunderstanding and that there is no foundation for the complaint which has been made—why some of the large Dublin schools would lose teachers under the new arrangement.
I should like to assure the Deputy that, if the difficulty does arise, I hope to introduce changes that would obviate that, because some Dublin schools are very much understaffed at the moment.
As regards the question of rating, it would be unfair, I think, to press the Minister for a decision at this time. The question of rating has been a bone of contention with the teachers. When the Minister says that it has been a source of conflict between the teachers and the Department of Education, I think that the teachers perhaps were inclined to approach this problem altogether from their own point of view. We have to recognise that inspectors are necessary. We have to have inspectors to appraise the work being done in the schools. I should like that the inspector would be more an adviser and friend of the teacher than an official coming to report on his transgressions; that he could be regarded as a genuine friend who could be consulted and that he would have at least sufficient patience, if matters were not always as he would have wished them, to recognise that the teacher might have his own views and, from his experience and knowledge, might have very good reason for adopting, let us say, a particular method of his own in dealing with a particular subject. Most of the inspectors, practically the whole of them, have been teachers themselves. They are bound to give due consideration to the difficulties with which the teachers have to contend, to have regard to the general standard in their area, and it would be surprising if inspectors did not make every allowance for teachers.
Perhaps the teachers felt that an undue burden was being placed upon them since they have had to do, as I have always admitted, what teachers in other countries have not to do—to deal with the second language. We have only to depend on the spirit of patriotism and enthusiasm of the teachers in the long run to do that work for us. It was most unfortunate, I think, that some teachers, because they had other grievances and other troubles which has been said were the cause of conflict with the Department— the younger teachers who had opportunities in regard to Irish which their elders had not got—should, it seemed, permit themselves to be used by those who were anxious to use any and every weapon against the policy of reviving Irish through the schools, to kindle whatever dissatisfaction was there against the Department or the Government or the Minister against the language. I think it would be a great pity if any body of teachers should do that, because I am sure the teachers as a body are as much interested in the restoration of the language as any other section of the community—probably more so. I think that only applied to a small section but, nevertheless, I feel that a certain amount of harm was done. I would like to say that anything that can be done to remove the genuine grievances that the teachers have will have my support and sympathy and of those who sit with me here.
This question of rating is a difficult matter. The Minister has had the advantage of having the views of various organisations and of the various interests concerned. He is getting a picture of the situation, and all that I can suggest is that before any representations which the teachers make, or any considerations which are put before him are rejected, that the matter should be very carefully considered. I am quite sure that the Minister will approach the whole question of the rating system with an open mind, and will do what he considers best, having regard to the necessity for getting the full co-operation of the teachers in the important national work which is entrusted to them.
I had intended mentioning, when referring to the question of averages, that there were many complaints from all over the country during emergency periods regarding school attendance. In some counties, in some rural areas, the attendances have not been good. If a new arrangement has been come to regarding the staffing of schools on the basis of the number on rolls in future, nevertheless, I think attention ought to be drawn to the fact that, with the emergency period over now and with farmers getting over their difficulties— I think they are in a happier condition than most other sections of the community—they really ought to try, in the rural areas, to keep their children constantly at school. In other countries where climatic conditions are much colder and harsher than we experience here, countries which suffered very much more than we did in the past ten years, they have managed, in even out of the way places, to maintain a very high attendance at school. After all, we cannot blame the teachers or the system or the programme if the children are not at school. As the teachers have so often said, if they have the full number present at school they can do much better work, and do much better for the pupils.
The Minister referred to the question of the school-leaving age. I should like to know from him whether any definite decision is likely to be come to in this matter. Were it not for the fact that the Commission on Youth Unemployment had not reported, I think that a formal decision would have been arrived at long ago. I think all Parties will be agreed that this is a reform which is necessary, and which must be made as soon as is convenient. I think the idea that was in mind was that the school-leaving age for boys and girls should be raised first to 15 and afterwards to 16. There are in Dublin, I think, some 10,000 potential pupils between the ages of 14 and 16 who are not attending school.
In the country as a whole there would be about 24,000 between 14 and 15, and about 38,000 between 14 and 16 not attending school at present who would have to be provided for. The Dublin City Vocational Education Committee have undertaken a building programme which will help to provide a certain amount of accommodation. I hope that, in the measures which have been taken to restrict building, that other classes of schools as well as national schools will be exempt from any slow down which the Government are imposing upon building operations. If somebody is not specially interested in educational building work, then it is apt to be given the go-by, because it has not the same immediate interest perhaps as housing generally, or building work which leads to employment. It is rather on a different footing, and may then be said to be not as important as work on hospitals or sanatoria.
Certainly, as far as the work of building those regional schools under the Dublin Vocational Education Committee is concerned, no work could be of greater importance. I think that if these schools were built and if we have as we are having new secondary schools in Dublin it ought to be possible to improve the position. This major problem is very serious here owing to the tremendous increase in the population: I think there has been an increase of at least 100,000 in the past 20 years or so—but in spite of that fact, if the Vocational Education Committee receive the earnest support of the Minister they will probably be able to do a great deal to make up the arrears. I do not think they will be able to provide anything like what will ultimately be required.
The Church authorities will, no doubt, be anxious to expand the secondary schools. It is well known that in the suburban areas we could do with more secondary schools. There are great difficulties in establishing these schools—getting sites in suitable areas, getting the buildings up and then getting the necessary staffs together.
I would be very interested in the development of vocational education. Take the case of apprenticeships. We are suffering at the present time from a shortage of skilled workers for housing and other important national work. Quite recently I was reading the opinions of a distinguished English economist who expressed the view— and I am sure there is a great deal in it—that the old system of apprenticeship often is carried out under conditions that are not modern or up-todate, and that the apprentice is not getting the benefit of the advances that are being made in the trade or craft. In a technichal school he will be taught to measure and to do handwork accurately and carefully. He will be given skill in the workshop, and it will be explained to him why one method is better than another. There will be a choice of methods, and he will be entirely free to give his own opinion. The teacher will be there to give him the best that he can give.
I feel quite certain that, with the co-operation which has gone on in a limited number of trades for apprenticeship schemes associated with the work of the Dublin City Vocational Education scheme, that if that could be extended: if the trade unions on the one hand and the employers on the other could be got to introduce and push forward schemes which would enable the number of apprentices in the skilled trades to be increased, we would be doing very valuable work, not alone for the individuals concerned and for the development of technical education of a good standard, but for getting ahead with the urgent national work that has to be done.
The question of An Gúm is very important. For some years past we have been held up in publishing Irish books owing to difficulties with printers, but there is a certain number of writers of Irish producing work at the present time and it is a tremendous national loss that that work cannot be published. Failing opportunities or facilities to produce the works that this relatively small number of first-class Irish authors whom we still, thank God, have with us, are writing, I wonder would the Minister consider producing or enabling these writers to have State aid granted to a periodical, either monthly or quarterly, which would enable them, during this difficult publishing period, to get their work to the Irish reading public? It is a tremendous handicap undoubtedly, and it is discouraging to these writers that they cannot get their work before the Irish public. Some of them are not getting any younger and there is a danger of considerable loss in that respect. We have also young men coming along who may be discouraged and who may be tempted to give up Irish altogether.
Does the Deputy mean something other than Feasta, An Comhair and Indiu?
Yes. I mean a monthly or quarterly magazine, something like the Dublin Magazine, one of those literary journals that one comes across in English, where there would be short stories or serials and where it would be of a high standard. From my experience of dealing with these ventures, I would say it is almost impossible, having regard to the limited reading public, to keep them afloat without assistance from the State. It is a wellknown fact that even in English it is almost impossible to keep a weekly journal going. If the facilities are made available to them, I am sure these writers will be happy to co-operate. Some of them are poets as well as novelists and prose writers, but unless some State aid is given them it will be difficult for them to get their writings before the public. These people generally have had the habit of looking to the Department of Education to make some suggestion.
I ask the Minister to consider whether anything can be done to make some arrangement for a few years until publication is resumed normally and until we have a better situation regarding Irish books—some arrangement so that these men would be paid for the work that will be taken from them and that it will be published. I cannot see any other way of dealing with this matter. It may not be the best way, but it seems to me that a monthly or quarterly periodical would be at least one way out.
Mar gheall ar an litriú nua, is dóigh liom go bhfuil an moladh ar fád ag dul d'aistritheóirí oifigiúla na Dála, a rinne an obair ar fad. Gí go ndearnadh siad é ar son an Taoisigh a bhí ann agus an Rialtais, mar sin fhein bhí tromaíocht na hoibre ar fad orthu agus sílim go bhfuil ár mbuíochas ar fad ag dul dóibh. Aon rud a rinne an Roinn Oideachais, ní dóigh liom, gí go mbféidir gur chuir sé isteach ar an Roinn, gur mórán é i gcomparáid leis an méid a rinne na haistritheóirí nuair a thóg siad an scéim sin orthu féin agus an t-eagrán nua agus an leabhrán sin a chur amach. Tá siad ag obair ar rud eile, ar ghramadach agus foclóir. atá rud beag níos iomlána ná an cheann deireannach a chur amach. Más féidir leo leanúint leis an obair sin agus an gramadach a chur ar fáil agus foclóir a bheadh rud beag níos mó ná an ceann deireannach, bheadh sé an-úsaídeach ar fad.
Bhfuil aon chúram ag an Roinn Oideachais i dtaobh an ghramadaigh?
Mura gcuire an tAire spéis ann, níl fhios agam cé eile a chuirfeadh spéis ann. Thug sé a imprimatur don litriú nua.
Ní dhearnas aon rud i dtaobh ghramadaigh.
Ba mhaith liom moladh agus cáineadh a mheascadh ar a chéile ar an gcéad dul síos. Ba mhaith liom cómhgháirdeachais a dhéanamh leis an Aire mar gheall ar rud amháin. Tá, is dóigh liom, muinín aige as an dream atá i mbun oideachais sa tír seo agus tá muinín ag an dream sin, na múinteoirí, do réir mar a tuigtear dom, as an Aire. Chuir sé tús maith lena chuid oibre agus deirtear gur tús maith leath na hoibre. Mhínigh sé anseo, is dóigh liom, agus bheinn sásta leis, go raibh sé mar chaingean aige, agus mar chaingean ag an Roinn, an Ghaeilge a chur á labhairt arís mar ghnáth-theanga na tíre agus go raibh sé go láidir ar thaobh na Gaeilge agus ar thaobh a haithbheochana. Sin é an caingean atá againn anseo, ar na binnsí seo, i gClann na Poblachta, agus fógraim don Aire má tharlann nach bhfuil a aigne socair ar sin nó má thagann sé ar mhalairt aigne, go gcloisfidh sé uainn.
At the outset I think the Minister is to be congratulated in having, as it were, from the word "go" succeeded in capturing in a very large measure the confidence of those primarily concerned with education, namely, the teachers. The Minister has their confidence. I think they have his. Only in that spirit and only with the Department of Education imbued with that spirit can come any real progress, educational or otherwise, in the revival of Irish and in making Irish once more the spoken language of the people. The Minister for Education is working with the existing system and the existing machinery. The members of the Clann na Poblachta Party would in some respects desire to change that system and that machinery. I do not know whether there are any very grave difficulties in the way. I am open to conviction in the matter. It does seem to me both unnecessary and ridiculous that our educational system should be divided into four water-tight compartments. I hold the view—I do not claim that it is an original one—that with great benefit to our whole educational machinery the existing divisions between primary and secondary education, at any rate, could be done away with and to some extent I took some grain of comfort from the Minister's reference to the possibility of the division coming at the age of 12 in the future rather than at the age of 14 as at present. I think that is a step in the right direction because it means that some number of those at present engaged in primary education would of necessity have to engage in the education of secondary students as well.
I would urge upon the Minister that he should consider to what extent it would be possible to reorganise the Department with a view to minimising the distinction that exists between the primary and secondary branches of his Department. Clann na Poblachta hold the view also that the school-leaving age should be raised immediately and that it should be raised to 16 instead of to 15, with a resultant profit to the nation and to the students. Far from creating any dislocation in industry it might have a beneficial effect in putting an end to blind-alley occupations —occupations in which children engage at 14 years of age, becoming rejects on the labour market when they reach 16, 17 or 18 years of age. I feel a coercive case can be made at the moment for immediately raising the school-leaving age to 16 and I would urge upon the Minister that he should give that his serious consideration.
There is one other small matter to which I wish to refer. It may seem a somewhat unimportant one but it is one which places a heavy burden on working-class families in this city. I do not know whether the Minister will be able to do anything in the matter. I refer to the issue of free schoolbooks. That may seem a small thing but small items like that in the weekly, monthly or yearly budget of people in the lower salary groups can have important repercussions on the family budgeting system. Perhaps during the financial year the Minister may have an opportunity of considering the possibility of improving the present position in relation to the provision of free schoolbooks.
With regard to vocational education, I do not know whether the Minister or his Department have considered the possibility of continuation classes. I understand that there is a system in existence on the Continent under which pupils attend school in alternative weeks while serving an apprenticeship in a particular trade.
I was glad of the Minister's assurance in regard to the new arrangement about averages. I do know that teachers in Dublin City, while they welcomed the principle underlying this change, had some cause for apprehension. They were apprehensive that one result might be that teachers would become redundant in the schools in which they were engaged and they were apprehensive also that the size of the classes might be increased. I am satisfied with the Minister's assurance that if he sees anything like that developing steps will be taken immediately to remedy it.
We on this side of the House welcome the proposal to set up a council of education. I think the Minister is wise in his decision not to make that a representative council in the narrow and restricted sense. I think he is wise in his decision to make it representative of all aspects of educational thought in the country. I think he is wise in his decision that it should be a small council and that it should bring to bear on its deliberations a determination not to become bound up in red tape.
The Minister and Deputy Derrig both referred to the fact that it was found most suitable to discuss the question of the Irish language and its revival on these Estimates. I know that that has been the accepted practice in this House and I know that in many respects this is a suitable occasion on which to review the position of the language revival. I would suggest that if the revival of the language is to be considered solely in the light of its revival through the schools then the language will never be revived.
The Minister referred to the fact that he felt it incumbent upon him to take the Gaeltacht areas more or less under his special wing. I was glad to hear him say so but I would be much more pleased to hear an announcement that, with a view to saving the language, a special Ministry, if necessary, was being set up to care for the Gaeltacht areas because if Irish is ever to be revived as the spoken language of this nation it can only be revived from the Gaeltacht out. Only by putting the Gaeltacht and the people living in it on a sound economic footing can we hope to see the repository of the language saved from extinction.
I would like also to ask the Minister to consider, when he is thinking in terms of the Irish language, the possibility of making greater use of films. The film has come to play such an important part in the lives of the people that it cannot be ignored as one of the more important media for reviving the language. I would ask him, too, not to allow considerations of parsimony or any general policy of retrenchment to operate too rigorously in so far as the Department of Education is concerned. Money spent on the making of films in Irish of a bright and entertaining nature would be money well spent and money which might save us expenditure in the future. Similarly, any expenditure on the production of plays or entertainments in Irish, small though it may be, may pay better dividends than would be paid by far greater amounts expended purely through the ordinary educational channels. I would, therefore, appeal to the Minister not to let considerations of parsimony or retrenchment influence him in his approach to anything necessary for the making of Irish once more the spoken language of the people.
I believe he has started off under a rather happy augury inasmuch as he has the goodwill of the teachers. I believe that upon the goodwill of the teachers, upon that spirit of co-operation, much will depend. I believe that without that co-operation and without that goodwill the Irish language cannot be saved.
Ag oscailt oráid an Mheastachán seo dhó, dúirt an tAire Oideachais nár mhaith leis go dtabharfaí poilitíocht isteach sa díospóireacht seo. Sé mo thuairim go raibh an achainí sin réasúnta mar má tá Meastachán ar bith a thagas ós comhair na Dála gur féidir ceisteanna poilitíochta a fhágáil as, déarfainn gurb é Meastachán na Roinne Oideachais é.
Ach, san am céanna, ba mhaith liom a mheabhrú don Aire go bhfuil daoine, agus dreamanna daoine, sa tír a mheascas in a n-aigne féin ceisteanna poilitíochta agus ceisteanna oideachais le chéile, go mór-mhór maidir leis an gceist Comhairle Oideachais a bhunú. D'éirigh dream amháin agus rinneadar ceist phoilitíochta ar fad di. Ba mhaith liom dá labhradh an tAire níos údarasaí i dtaobh ceist na Gaeilge agus aithbheochaint na Gaeilge, sa mhéid go mbaineann sé leis an gComhairle Oideachais. Níl aon dream dar lucht leanúna 'sa taobh seo den Teach ar chuma ar bith in aghaidh na Gaeilge. Tugaimíd go léir cúnamh di agus do rinne Rialtas Fianna Fáil níos mó ar son na Gaeilge ná mar a rinne aon dream eile.
Bíodh sin mar atá, tá fhios ag an Aire go maith go bhfuil dreamanna ag tabhairt cúnamh dó a bhfuil súil acu anois, toisc go gcuirfear Comhairle Oideachais ar bun, go gcuirfear deireadh leis an nGaeilg.
Ní dúirt aon duine é sin ach amháin an Teachta Ó Cinnéide.
Is féidir liom altanna a thaisbeánt dó a foilsíodh i bpáipeirí, le dreamanna a thugann cabhair do Rialtas—daoine atá ar thaobh na Gaeilge agus an Rialtais—a 'spáineanus gur amhlaidh atá. Teastaíonn uainn a chlos ón Aire Oideachais nach chun deireadh a chur leis an nGaeilge a cuirfear an Chomhairle Oideachais seo ar bun. Tá an eagla sin ar mórán daoine ar fud na tíre cé gur féidir é nár chuala an tAire é. Ar ndóigh, chuala mise é san Iarthar agus i mBaile Atha Cliath freisin.
Maidir le athbheochaint na Gaeilge admhaíonn gach duine go bhfuil sárobair déanta ag na múinteóirí 'sna scoileanna. Baineann an cheist sin, múineadh na Gaeilge 'sna scoileanna, le ceist litriú nua na Gaeilge. Tá faitíos amháin orm ar chuma ar bith, agus seo é: go bhfuil an iomarca ama á chaitheamh le scríobhadh agus léamh na Gaeilge sna bún-scoileanna le hagaidh an Teastais. Ní mise amháin atá ar an tuairim sin; ní múinteoir mé, ach fuair mé an tuairim ó mhórán múinteóirí gur ceart go mbéadh níos mó cúram agus cleachtadh i labhairt na Gaeilge le haghaidh an Teastais ná mar atá ann faoi lathair. Bíodh is go bhfuil sé táchtach go mbéadh litriú caighdeánach 'sa nGaeilge, go mór mhór ós rud é go bhfuil i bhfad níos mó daoine i ndon í a sgríobhadh anois.
Cén Teastas é?
Teastas na mbun-scol—an scrúdú a gcaithidh na dáltaí a dhéanamh ar fhágaint na scoile dhóibh. Tá an iomarca tábhachta, ar bhealach, ag baint le scríobhadh agus léamh na teangan thar mar tá le na labhairt. Dá mbeadh labairt na Gaeilge ag fáil a áit cheart ní doigh liom go mbeadh an stróimh céanna ar dhaoine i dtaobh litriú na Gaeilge. Is minic a chonnaic mé litreacha, agus is minic a fuair me féin litreacha, ó dhaoine na nGaeltacht nach bhfuil aon oideachas orthu agus ná'r fhoghluim sgriobh na Gaeilge riamh. Is féidir liom a rá, i dtaobh an tsaghais litrithe a bhí sna litreacha sin, go raidh sé anchosúil leis an litriú nua seo—.i. go rabh sé do réir fuaimeanna. D'á mba rud é go raibh níos mó cleachtadh ag na daoine a bhfuil an oiread sin le rá acu faoi, gheobhfaidís amach nach bhfuil sé leath chomh casta agus a cheapann siad, bíodh 'is go bhfuil sé, in a slí féin, an-thabhachtach.
Ba mhaith liom, ar chuma ar bith, nach bhfagfaí ceist múineadh na Gaeilge faoin gComhairle Oideachais seo. Má tá an tAire le socrú a dhéanamh i dtaobh na ceiste sin do réir an treoir a gheobhfas sé ón comhairle braithfidh a bhreithiúnas ar an saghasdream a cheapfas sé air. Má thoghann sé daoine atá i gcoinne na teangan gheoghfaidh sé tuarascáil amhain. Má thoghann sé daoine a bhfuil a gcroí 'sa nGaeilge gheoghfaidh sé tuarascáil de shaghas eile.
Tá dhá cheist ann i dtaobh múineadh na Gaeilge. Tá daoine ag gearán i dtaobh múineadh na Gaeilge agus múineadh trí Gaeilge agus, ar ndoigh, níl baint ar bith ag an dá cheist le chéile. Ba mhaith liom go n-abrófaí go húdarásach go bhfuil múineadh na Gaeilge le dul ar aghaidh agus go bhfuil sé sin mar chuspóir ag an Rialtas nua seo. Bhi áthas orm a chlos ó chomhalta de Clann na Poblachta go bhfuil an chuspóir sin ag an dream lena mbaineann sé. Déarfainn go bhfuil imní faoi'n gceist sin ar dhaoine ar fud na tíre. Tá mórán daoine ag cainnt faoi agus is dócha go bhfuil a fhios sin ag an Aire féin. Dá bhrí sin ba cheart go bhféachfadh an tAire chuige go bhfágaí ceist múineadh trí Gaeilte ag an dream daoine is fearr agus is cáiliúla chun a fuascailte. Dúirt múinteóir sa nGaeltacht liom go bhfuil sé deimhnitheach gur féidir, trí obair mhúinteora i sgoil, ceanntar Gaelach a Bhéarlú. Más féidir é sin a dhéanamh bhféidir go bhfuil sé níos fusa ceanntar a Béarlú ná a Ghaelú. Ach, más féidir é sin a dhéanamh trí obair múinteora i sgoil, agus má bhíonn an spiorad ceart ag na múinteoirí, déarfainn go mbeadh malairt in-déanta freisin.
Chuir mé an-spéis sa gcaint a rinne an tAire agus an Teachta Ó Deirg freisin i dtaobh aithbheochaint na Gaeilge agus spiorad na ndaoine. Má bhionn an dearcadh ceart ag an múinteoir agus ag na tuismitheoirí, ar ndóigh, tá an cheist réidh go leor lena fuascailt.
Ar cheist an oideachais go geinerálta ba mhaith liom a rá—agus dúras é go minic cheana—go bhfuil córas oideachais an-mhaith againn sa tír seo. Bhí mé ag cainnt le múinteoirí as áiteanna eile—daoine as Sasana—agus b'in í an tuairim a bhí acu freisin. Bhí mé ag cainnt le ban-mhúinteoir a bhí sa tír seo ar lorg daoine óga le haghaidh oibre agus a shiúl an tir ó ceann go céile. B'é a tuairim go raibh an caighdeán oideachais sa tír seo níos aoirde ná an caighdeán oideachais i Sasana. Dúirt mise léi go mb'fhéidir, ós rud é go bhfuilim im' Theachta Dála, go raibh sí ag iarraidh mé a phlámás. "Nílim" ar sise. "Cuirim an-shuim sa scéal. Táim tamall fada ag múinteoireacht agus sin é mo thuairim go macánta."
Ní ceart, mar sin, go mbeadh daoine ann nach mbeadh báidh ná gean acu den Ghaeilge ag caitheamh drochmheas ar ár gcóras oideachais de bharr a ngráin ar an nGaeilge. Fágfaidís ceist an oideachais ghenerálta as, ar fad, mar tá córas oideachais againn atá níos fearr ná mar atá ag tíortha eile atá i bhfad níos deisiúla agus níos acmhúinní. Ni dóigh liom go bhfuil siad ag déanamh seirbhíse don tír nó fiú amháin don dream poiliticiúil a mbaineann siad leis.
Sé an rud deireannach ba cheart dom a dhéanamh ná a iarraidh ar an Aire —d'iarr mé é seo anuraidh agus an bhliain roimhe sin—a iarraidh ar na múinteoirí níos mó aire a thabhairt do múineadh cainnt na Gaedhilge do na dáltaí a bheas ag dul isteach ar an Teastas. Deirtear liom go dtugtar an iomad ama do litriú agus léamh agus sgríobhadh na teangan, go háirithe le blianta beaga anuas, agus go bhfuil labhairt na Gaeilge sna bun-sgoileanna curtha siar cuid mhaith d'á bharr.
I agree with Deputy Derrig that in the discussion of this Vote the question of the revival of the Irish language and the teaching of Irish in schools should play a big part. I should like to say at the outset that, as a Deputy representing a Dublin constituency who knows something about the mind of the ordinary parent in Dublin with regard to the question of compulsory Irish—and by "compulsory Irish" I do not mean the compulsory teaching of Irish in schools but the compulsory teaching through Irish of other subjects—I welcome the indication given by the Minister that he is examining that particular question personally. I know very well that there is a great deal of confusion, and very often a great deal of bitterness, aroused by any mention of the phrase "compulsory Irish". I think it is a phrase which should not be used but I think that to-day everyone knows what it means. I do not think that bitterness or ill-feeling should be roused on this question. It is merely a question of method.
Deputy Bartley made a mistake which a great number of people make when speaking on this subject. The Deputy spoke in only one of the official languages so possibly I may have misunderstood some of his remarks because I cannot claim to be as fluent in that language as he is. However, from what I understood from some of the remarks he made, I think he claimed that some of those supporting this Government were against the revival of Irish. Then I think he limited that comment by the remark that some of the newspapers supporting the Government were against the revival of Irish. I think the fact of the matter is that whenever a person opposes the present system of teaching Irish or, at any rate, the system pursued for the last ten or 20 years with regard either to the teaching of Irish or the revival of the language taken as a general subject, there are those who immediately rear up on their hindlegs and accuse that person of being un-Irish, anti-Irish and un-national. I believe that is an unfair attitude, a narrow and bigoted point of view which should be eliminated.
I agree that in discussions such as that on the Vote for Education, politics should not be mixed with education and I sincerely hope that when the council of education is established, there will not be any question of politics on that body, or any clash or collision between the viewpoints of different political Parties regarding the question of Irish or of education as a whole. We may differ with regard to the methods we should like to see employed but I am perfectly satisfied that no group will ever come into an Irish Parliament to oppose efforts to revive Irish as the spoken language in this country. I venture to prophesy, although I know prophecy is a dangerous thing, that every political Party that will arise in this State will support every effort to revive Irish as the spoken language of this country.
We may differ, as I say, as regards methods. I certainly disagree entirely with some of the methods which have been pursued so far here. I do not believe that compulsion is ever going to be a better way of getting a thing done than inducement. I know, as I say, the mind of the ordinary parent in Dublin on the question of what is commonly known as compulsory Irish. I think that Deputy Butler will agree with me that in the constituency which he and I represent, if he goes to the average mother in Harold's Cross, Crumlin or Rathmines, he will find that she is opposed to the present system and that she is calling out for some alteration in it. These people are not against Irish as a language and they are not against the policy of reviving Irish as the spoken language of the country; what they are against is the present system. Each and every one of these parents will tell anybody who takes the trouble to go round and speak to them that, in their opinion, their children are not being properly educated or properly fitted to earn a livelihood when they leave school. It is for that reason and for that reason alone that I am against the methods which have been employed. I should like to say to the Minister that I am certain that in Dublin—and I do not claim to speak for anybody outside Dublin—the fact that he is investigating that particular matter and that he is devoting his attention to it as one of his first tasks is going to receive a very widespread welcome in this city.
Just before leaving that subject, I should like to give Deputies one example—I am leaving the question of compulsory Irish—of the system as a whole. I do not blame Fianna Fáil for this, because the system to which I refer was introduced as a result of an Act passed before they came into office, but the system was pursued by them. Take the question of the Legal Practitioners Qualification Act. The position under that is that when I pass a couple of examinations in Irish I am, by Act of Parliament, deemed to be a competent Irish speaker, whether or not I am able to conduct my business in Irish, the day after I pass these examinations. We are only "codding" ourselves if we think we are improving the position of Irish by passing an Act here which says that if a solicitor's apprentice passes two examinations we can consider him as competent to conduct his business in Irish. I want to say that I passed these examinations and the day after I passed them I do not believe that I would have been competent to conduct my business in Irish. I think the same could be said of 99 per cent. of the apprentices who pass these examinations. The odd .01 per cent. are those who come from Gaeltacht areas or those who speak the language in the ordinary way in their homes. Against that it has to be said that the average ordinary solicitor, after he has qualified, has never the slightest necessity to use Irish.
I know it is a very difficult problem but it is one to which we should give some consideration here. I think that after a trial lasting for a full generation none of us no matter what Party he may represent—and the first Goxernment as well as the last Government must accept responsibility for this—can claim that after 25 years of trial and experiment the method so far pursued in an effort to revive Irish as the spoken language has been attended with anything like success. I think there will be general agreement on that here. It is certainly the general opinion outside that, so far from progressing, the cause of reviving Irish as the spoken language has receded in the last 25 years. I am not sufficiently conversant with the question to be able to decide that myself but I know that there is a very widespread opinion that that is so. Before I was a member of this House I heard the matter discussed here on a motion proposed by the present Minister for Education when he was sitting over there. I have not looked up the debate, but my recollection of the case made by him then was, and I do not think it was seriously contested by Deputy Derrig, who was then Minister, that the cause of Irish has receded rather than progressed in the last ten or 20 years.
I was glad to hear Deputy Derrig and Deputy Lehane state that there would be general agreement on the question of raising the school-leaving age. I have a motion down dealing with that question. Even though I have that motion down, I realise that the raising of the school-leaving age is going to create a problem for the Minister and the Government unless they handle it very carefully. Without having given the matter very deep thought, I am rather more inclined to agree with the viewpoint expressed by Deputy Derrig that this is a matter in regard to which we might have to go a bit slow, than I am with the view expressed by Deputy Lehane.
In conclusion, I welcome the proposal to establish a council of education. I know the Minister is going to have a headache in order to find exactly the proper type of representatives to put on that council. I should like, however, to make a special plea to him when that council is being set up that he should consider the average Irish parents, whether the representatives come from parish councils or any parents' organisations which are there. I should like to see not so much the educationist but the average Irish parent getting fair representation on the council so that the parent's case could be put in such a way to that body that it would be heard very directly by the Department of Education.
Ba mhaith liom cúpla focail a rá ar an Meastacháin seo. Tá áthas orm gurb é polasaí an Aire Oideachais an Gaeilge aithbheochaint agus leanúint leis an sar-obair a rinneadh ar feadh 25 bliain. Tá súil agam nach ndéanfar aon dochar don teangan ag an cómhdháil atá le cur ar bun ag an Aire.
Tá fhios agam go bhfuil sar-obair á dhéanamh ins na scoileanna náisiúnta agus na scoileanna eile ach nuair fháganna na dáltaí na scoileanna sin é an t-am a deintear an dochair. Tá na pictiúirí reatha, an craolachán agus na páipéirí nuaidheachta á gcur isteach ar aithbheochaint na teangan. Ba chóir don Aire féachaint chuig na rudaí sin, agus rudaí eile atá á cur moill ar staid na teangan agus gan an milleán a chur ar na múinteóirí nó na daltaí fhéin.
Ba mhaith an rud, freisin, spreagadh a thabhairt do na múinteóirí atá ag déanamh sár-oibre ar son na teangan sa Ghalltacht, cuir i gcás, an deontas £5 a thabhairt do na múinteóirí agus na daltaí atá ag déanamh gach rud tríd an nGaeilge sna nGalltacht. Sin deáshompla ar fad. Na daoine atá ina gcónaí san nGaeltacht, b'fhéidir go bhfuigheadh siad an déa-shompla ón Ghalltacht agus, tá daltaí agus múinteóirí i scoileanna sa nGalltacht ag déanamh sár-oibre ar son na Gaeilge agus níl siad ag fáil aon spreagadh chun iad a mhisniú.
Chuala mé a lán cainnte i dtaobh múineadh trí Ghaeilge. Táimse ag múineadh le 13 bliain agus níor cuireadh aon iachall orm gach rud a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge. Cuireadh iachall orm an Ghaeilge féin a mhúineadh ach níor cuireadh aon iachall orm gach rud a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge. Bhí sé de rogha agam a dhéanamh nó gan a dhéanamh.
I had not intended to intervene in this debate until I heard so much being said about the language and compulsory Irish. When speaking in Irish, I said that there is no compulsion that I know of. I have been 13 years teaching and nobody ever compelled me to teach every subject through the medium of Irish. I am of course teaching in the Galltacht, and I expect that the compulsion spoken of must be in the Breac-Gaeltacht or the Fior-Gaeltacht where English is compulsory. It was up to myself to teach the other subjects through English or Irish. I have had experience in various schools and I taught everything but the language itself through the medium of English. When I switched over to teach everything through the medium of Irish, I found that I got better results and that I had not to give so much time to the language itself. In regard to this talk about compulsion, the Minister hit the nail on the head when he stated that there are a lot of rules and regulations and that perhaps they were being interpreted wrongly so that teachers and inspectors were actually doing more than they were expected to do. In opening the debate, the Minister referred to that, and that possibly is the cause of a lot of misunderstanding about this whole question of compulsion.
I was glad to hear from representatives of every Party in the House that the policy is to keep up the pressure to restore the language and bring it back as soon as possible as the ordinary language of the people of this nation. We do not know how this council of education will be composed. We are told that it is going to be a small body. We know that a council could be set up whose object would be to intensify even further the restoring of the language. Another type of council could be set up which could do an immense amount of harm. I hope that whoever is on the council of education will have the interests of the language at heart and continue to keep up the work of restoring the language.
When the Minister was giving the percentage increases that were paid to the different branches of education since 1940 I noticed that the increase given to primary education was only 39 per cent. compared with 88 per cent. to secondary education and 90 per cent. to technical education. That shows the little regard there is for the primary branch of education, although the Minister admitted that the primary schools were responsible for the education of most of the people, that primary education is the only education which the majority of people get. I think that is very unfair.
The Minister also mentioned that he was interested in the cutting down of the size of classes. The different Parties composing the Coalition got a circular from the teachers' organisation and one of the answers they gave was that they were all interested in the size of the classes and the cutting down of classes. The Minister has given a concession by which the number on the rolls is to be substituted for the average attendance. Some Deputies said that dissatisfaction with regard to this new regulation had been expressed by some of the city schools. So far as the classes are concerned, I think that the aim is too high. So far as I have read the regulations, before you can get a third teacher in a school you must have 100 pupils on the roll; 99.9 per cent. will not do. In order to have two teachers, I think the number is 60. I have not the actual regulation before me but I think it is in or about that number. That means that you would require 40 more pupils in order to get a third teacher for that school. I think the figures quoted in answer to the questionnaire issued by the teachers' organisation would not put the size of a class as high as 40. I think that when it comes to the question of a third or fourth teacher school the figures go higher still. In the country schools, where there are only two teachers, if they have 60 pupils, in order to get a third teacher the number would have to go from 60 to 100. Suppose the number goes up to 95 that number will have to be divided between the two teachers.
Even then the pupils taken by each teacher would not be all in the one class so that the position will be really difficult because of the number of classes. I think that on this question of the size of classes there are bigger grievances in the case of country schools than of city schools. I would ask the Minister to look into that aspect of the question.
As regards this council of education, we welcome it if it is going to do the good we are told it will do. If, however, it is going to be just a very small body, and if its functions are to be purely advisory, I think the Minister could get all the advice that he wants from the different organisations interested in education at the moment without bringing this council of education together at all. If there is a council of education it may meet and discuss things for a long time before arriving at any decision. I hope that it is not going to be the policy of the present Government to set up councils or commissions either as regards education or other matters in order to evade the responsibilities which the members of the Government took on themselves when they came into office. The Minister, I think, gave an assurance that he was not going to use this council to shelve any problems for which we understand the Government had an easy solution prior to the election. I hope that will not be the case. If this council of education is going to be a purely advisory body, then I do not see how it can do an immense lot of good.
There are many problems to be dealt with at the moment, such as the rating system and the grievances of pensioned teachers. If these are going to be left on the long finger until this council has made certain recommendations then, instead of doing good it may do a lot of harm. In regard to the grievances that exist at the moment in our educational system, my opinion is that the Minister should act himself. He should rectify them immediately and not wait for any council of education to advise him. I thought the members of the Government had a solution for these problems prior to the election. If so they should put it into effect and not try to hide behind this council. I think the Minister mentioned the Youth Unemployment Commission which, he said, was set up here in Dublin some years ago. That commission has not yet brought in its report. It did bring in an interim report. If that is to be taken as an example, then we may ask how long would this council of education sit before we got any definite decision from it that would help to remedy existing grievances. The Minister should, as I have said, take the responsibility for making the decision.
The rating system and the grading of teachers is most unfair. It is something like the Spring Show that is being held here this week. One person will get a first prize, another will get a second, and someone else will get a third prize. A lot depends on the place where a teacher's school is situated. Here in Dublin you have model schools which are not too far away from the Department of Education. It may be that only certain pupils are admitted to them. I do not know what the regulations are, but there are certain classes of schools where you get children of a better type than others. Take the case of two teachers with equal qualifications. One is teaching in a school which is situate in a poor area. The children who come to it are not as well clothed or as well fed and perhaps do not come from homes with the same environment as the children attending a school in a better off area. That teacher cannot be expected to get the same results from his pupils as the teacher in the school who has pupils from more well-to-do-homes. Yet, when the inspector visits these two schools it is the same examination that is set for the pupils. The same standard is expected from the pupils in the school in the poor area as in the other. As Deputy Bartley has pointed out, the primary certificate examination is the same in both schools. That is one example of how the rating system works unfairly.
I think it should be looked into and abolished immediately. I think the British, from whom we inherited the system, have long since done away with it. We should not have to wait for a council of education to abolish it.
I would make a special appeal to have something done immediately for the pensioned teachers. In the early days they were pioneers in the language movement and in the Sinn Féin movement. They taught the language when it was not popular to do so. In those days they got little or no fees for the work they did, but by their co-operation and work they helped to mould the character of the pupils attending their schools and made good Irishmen and women of them. Many of their pupils went forth as missionaries to foreign countries, to spread the Faith, and many gave good service in the cause of Irish culture. Those pensioned teachers are now expected to live in their old age on a miserable pension. I would ask the Minister to give special attention to their case and to grant them an immediate increase in their pensions.
After listening to Deputy Kitt's remarks and his eulogy of the pensioned teachers, one stops for a moment to realise that Deputy Kitt has but a short while passed to the other side of the House. With his colleagues, he left these pensioned teachers for 16 years in the wilderness. I have not any of the apprehension that Deputy Kitt has about the council of education. The amazing thing about the new Government is that it will take advice and, if a council of education gives advice to the Minister, I am quite sure that he will, as far as possible, implement that advice in so far as it is likely to be beneficial to the country's educational system.
I shall, first of all, deal with the problem of our national language. I have a deep-rooted objection to compulsion and I have a deep-seated honest interest in the language. I urge upon the Minister that he could immediately forego compulsion and, instead, he might introduce inducement. It is appalling that this State has arrived at a stage where, through no fault of their own, the children are illiterate in two languages. I think the time has come when an agitation of parents, all fair-minded teachers and all people interested in education should bear fruit.
The problem of the revival of our language should be taken in a realistic way. I suggest it might be taken in this manner: that where you have areas such as the Gaeltacht, areas that we are fortunate enough to have, because they are indeed the nursery for whatever revival the language may have, it is in the national interest and in the interest of the education of our children that Irish should be the medium of education. There are, however, many areas where such is not the happy position, and in those cases I urge upon the Minister that he should view the problem this way, that where there are parents or children imbued with enthusiasm to learn all they can about the language through the medium of the language, he should provide such schools to which they could go as volunteers and in which they should receive every encouragement by way of prizes or scholarships or per capita emoluments.
Where it is impracticable to teach the children through any other medium than the common medium of this country at the moment—the English language—the Minister should face that position in a realistic way and put Irish on the curriculum as a subject, and not in any odious form of compulsion.
There are many problems of education that I am sure the Opposition will now have a lot to say about. The question of education will most probably be put on a par with the question of Partition, the one that they ignored, shelved, side-tracked and abused while in office. They will now try to make political capital out of it, but the fact remains that no matter how long or how difficult the promulgation of a report by any council of education may be, I cannot envisage it taking 16 years to bring forth some fruit.
I welcome the Minister's statement and I welcome the fact that at last there will be an honest investigation and a proper investigation into the problem of the Irish language. There is none of us, I am sure, who is not anxious to see the Irish language in general use, but it is a matter that merits more consideration than the blind fanaticism of any individual. It is a problem that affects in a very real way the future of every young person because, growing up as we are in a world of keen competition, the duty of this State is primarily to equip its young citizens for the job of making them useful and effective in this country. I am prepared to say that in many cases the result of their efforts, as I have previously said, was illiteracy in two languages.
Nonsense.
We have a big problem to face with regard to schools. There are many of our schools in a very bad condition. The Minister will have to face the problem of accommodation for both children and teachers in various parts of the country where he has been handed over schools in a dilapidated condition. When considering education under our present system one has to consider three distinct branches. It is quite true to say that primary education is the real, formative period in education. I hope the Minister will give prior attention to that particular branch and that he will approach it in a realistic way, realising that a large number of the pupils will not go beyond primary education. I trust he will arrange a curriculum that will equip that particular type of person for some avocation in rural Ireland. Secondary education is an important matter and to some extent there is a problem involved in it because the position has been reached in this country where, in some instances, a knowledge of Irish has become the dominating factor in the employment of people with a resultant sacrifice of other types of efficiency. There are many positions in this country in which candidates are required to have a proficiency in the Irish language as a first requisite of competence. Technical qualifications which may be of prime importance tend to become overlooked and the best qualified technical man, despite his qualifications, will not be assured of success unless he has a proficiency in Irish.
I would urge upon the Minister that education in this country should be designed to give all the encouragement possible to those people eager and anxious to learn their native language without at the same time inflicting any hardship on those people who are not in a position to make themselves as proficient in the language as others. One must look upon education in a proper spirit. It has been my own experience that when one leaves the secondary school and enters the university proficiency in one's native language lapses through zest in professional studies. The result of that is that later on in life the fact that one has grown rusty in one's own language may militate against one's obtaining employment in one's own country. I want the Minister to go on increasing his efforts to develop the Irish language on the basis of encouragement, inducement and help rather than on the basis of compulsion.
I ask the Minister to implement at the earliest opportunity all the benefits he can possibly give to the teachers in regard to averages and size of classes. Within the scope of every teacher there are certain limits. Ability to impart knowledge is limited. Patience is limited. Effort is limited. Bearing those fundamental humanities in mind the Minister should decide as to what size class any one teacher can cope with and control. I trust the Minister will give sympathetic consideration to any outstanding grievances that may exist in the teaching community whether those teachers be on the active list or in retirement. If these matters are not dealt with the suggestion may be made that we are putting things on the long finger. I hope the Minister in his approach to education will give a salutary and definite answer to such a suggestion. I hope that all these matters will receive his prior attention. The chorus said that I spoke nonsense when I described some people as being illiterate in two languages.
Some of your own back benchers started it.
It may be nonsense to some but it happens to be true within my own knowledge. It happens to have been my own personal experience where I found certain people, through no fault of their own, forced into a set of circumstances where they had a very incompetent knowledge of Irish and no knowledge of anything else.
Do you think Irish is the cause of their being illiterate in the other language?
Sílim go bhfuilimíd go léir ins an Teach seo ar aon aigne mar gheall ar an gceist seo agus dá bhrígh sin, is fíorbheagán atá le rá agam agus tá súil agam gur fiú dhom an méid atá le rá agam a rá. Admháim go bhfuil cead ag cách a thuairim féin a bheith aige, ach sílim nach cheart do dhaoine nach bhfuil an Ghaeilge acu a bheith ag cainnt chomh láidir sin i gcoinne na Gaeilge agus a bhíos siad de ghnáth.
Although I am speaking from this side of the House, a Chinn Comhairle, I feel that it is incumbent upon me to express my absolute disagreement with some of the expressions used by Deputy Collins. He criticised the Fianna Fáil Government very severely and the gist of his remarks was that Fianna Fáil, as a Party and as a Government, had done great harm to the Irish language. I would not subscribe to that view at all. I congratulate the Fianna Fáil Government and the Fianna Fáil Party for what they did for the Irish language. I think that they did great work for Irish and I do not care from what side of the House I am speaking when I say that I do not subscribe to his view. I think it right to say these things.
He made a point, too, from which one would draw the conclusion that efficiency in the Irish language meant —in some cases at any rate—in-efficiency in other branches of knowledge. Then he had his "illiterates in both languages". I was the first one here who interjected "Nonsense" and I repeat that now. Obviously—in my opinion at any rate—a second language is a great advantage to a person. I do not care what language it is, but I think that the man with a second language and a reasonable working knowledge of it is a better educated man than the man with only one language. I think that we, the Irish people, ought to give first preference to our own language. We are brought up English speakers for the most part, but we have got the chance from both the Fianna Fáil Government and their predecessors for every one of us to be proficient in the Irish language. That is a policy which will, I know, be followed by the present Minister for Education and by the Department under his control, and no thanks are due to him for that, for it is a national duty.
I do not know what is really meant by the question of compulsory Irish. Irish is a subject on the curriculum, surely. The question of teaching through Irish in the primary schools has met with very severe criticism from a great number of people. The only way, I think, by which one can judge the results of this so-called compulsory Irish is from one's own personal experience. I have to say that I knew very little Irish history until I began to learn it and to have it taught to me through Irish. I do not know whether it can be said that history in any language is of very high literary merit, but whatever the cause, I have to say that I learned Irish history much more easily when I learned it and read it in Irish than I had been able to do when I was trying to learn it in English. I am not an authority on the Irish language; I have just a fair working knowledge of it. I cannot say that it was because the literary style of the history in Irish was more attractive and more conducive to learning than the history in English, but the only bit of Irish history which I know and which I was able to remember was what I learned through Irish.
In regard to the question of people being "illiterate in both languages", I see in my own home where there are small children going to school that they appear to learn the language very easily indeed. I am not saying that they are of a higher standard of intelligence than my neighbours' children or the children of people who seem to have a deep-rooted antagonism for the Irish language but, I do not regard it as any hardship upon them to be taught all their subjects through Irish. I am quite satisfied that it is no hardship; I am glad that they are being taught it and that when they come home from school they are able to talk in Irish in their simple way about what goes on in school.
I am against compulsion but I would pursue the policy that has been pursued in the schools of using Irish as a medium and of using it on every possible occasion because from my own experience of learning languages the only way to do it is to keep on using it and if the teachers relegate Irish to the place of just one of the school subjects there will never be any progress as far as making Irish the spoken language is concerned.
Education, like politics, seems to be the playground of practically everybody and everyone has an opinion on politics and education. I suppose that is right; we all get a certain modicum of education in the same way as we all have an interest in politics. But a thing which often puzzles me is to hear people who do not know a word of Irish being most vocal in their criticism of Irish. I would feel very slow in criticising, let us say, some aspect of the science of medicine, as I know nothing about it. I would feel that if criticism were to be directed towards some method in medicine that it should come from medical men. Before starting to criticise a thing one should at least go to the trouble of knowing something about it. I would concede the right of an Irish speaker to criticise the teaching of Irish if he so desired and if he were sincere about it, but I would not concede the right to a person who knows no Irish to come along and criticise Irish or the methods of teaching it.
The principal difficulty that I see about the revival of the language is one that has been mentioned many times, and that is the failure of the children who leave school to use it in their grown-up lives. I have thought a great deal about this because I have a great interest in the revival of the language and I believe that one reason for this is that young people, particularly after leaving school, are ashamed of the Irish language and of being able to speak it. I have personal experience of this too. I am not one of these people who were affected by the Statute of 1929 which makes it obligatory on solicitors' apprentices to know Irish before taking their final examination.
I was astonished a short time ago at one of the district courts in Tipperary, when a young solicitor, who had passed the final Irish examination set by the Law Society, who to my knowledge has a very good working knowledge of Irish and who has actually conducted cases in court in Irish, told me that he considered the whole question of the revival of Irish and its use in the courts was useless. That young man should not have had that outlook at all. I do not know whether that mentality and outlook should be blamed on the system, but whatever the cause, it is a great pity. I have the idea that it should be inculcated into the teachers that children should be made proud of their own language which they are being taught and that they should be taught that it would be a civic virtue for the Irish people to speak Irish. I think that would help to do away with the mentality of which I complained which makes young Irish professional men who know Irish tell us that Irish is useless.
There should, of course, be greater emphasis on civics in the schools. Children should be taught and made to realise in school that there is something more about education than just learning how to add and subtract, how to read a bit of Irish and English and a bit of history and geography. I agree that the most important place for civics to be taught is in the home, but if that were augmented by a course in the schools you would have better Irish citizens. Part of that training in civics—children being made to realise that public property is their property —should consist in showing them what an important thing (a) a knowledge of a second language is; and (b) that the Irish language is that second language. When I attended a primary school myself, so far as I can recall, I did not learn civics at all. Perhaps civics were being taught to me then and that I did not know what civics meant. I do not know if civics are being taught at the present time but a suggestion which I feel should be made to the Minister, so that he may pass it through all the various grades right down to the primary schools, is that it is just as important to teach children to be good citizens, as it is to teach them that two and two make four.
Is annamh a labhraim sa Tigh seo ach ba mhaith liom cúpla focal a rá ar an Meastachán seo. Do réir mar chímse, sí ceist múineadh trí Ghaeilge an cheist is tábhachtaí sa díospóireacht inniu. Tá mise ag múineadh na Gaeilge mar ghnáththeanga sna scoileanna le 25 bliana anuas. Deirtear nach bhfuil staid na Gaeilge chomh sásúil sna scoileanna agus ba cheart. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé sin fíor, ach ní ar an gcóras oideachais ná ar an Aire ná ar an Roinn atá an locht. Tá faitíos orm go bhfuil a lán daoine sa tír seo, agus go mór mór na tuismitheoirí, nach bhfuil dáiríribh sa cheist seo. Ní ar na páistí i gcónaí a bhíonn an locht. Thosaigh mé ag múineadh beagnach 40 blian ó shoin agus ní raibh Gaeilge dá múineadh an uair sin ach i gcorr scoil, mar bhreis ábhar.
Thosaigh mé ag múineadh i dtuaisceart na tíre agus do mhúineas an Ghaeilge mar bhreis-ábhar agus do mhúineas an Ghaeilge sna scoileanna i gcónaí go dtí gur tháinic an t-athrú Rialtais. Mar bhreis-ábhar a bhíodh an Ghaeilge i gcónaí an uair sin agus tá a fhios agam an difríocht atá idir an Ghaeilge mar bhreis-ábhar agus an Ghaeilge mar tá sí ann anois. Mar bhreis-ábhar ní bhíodh an Ghaeilge á múineadh ach ar feadh leath uaire nó uaire sa ló agus níorbh fhéidir mórán a dhéanamh. Do b'fhéidir clár beag a dhéanamh agus b'fhéidir é a dhéanamh i gceart ach ní raibh sé sáthach leathan; ach faoin scéim atá againn anois is féidir an Ghaeilge do labhairt leis na páistí ar an bhfaiche agus ag déanamh a gcuid oibre sa scoil i rith an lae. Ar ndóigh, tá sé i bhfad níos fearr ná mar bhí an scéal nuair a tháinig ár Rialtas dúchasach isteach. Chím go bhfuil cuid de na múinteoirí, freisin, ag rá nach bhfuil an obair á dhéanamh i gceart agus nach bhfuil an toradh ceart á fháil.
Aontaím leis sin, ach, ar an dtaobh eile, is é mo thuairim go bhfuil cuid de na múinteoirí féin nach bhfuil i ndáiríribh. Tá an chuid is mó, gan aon amhras, ag déanamh a ndíchill, ach tá cuid eile agus tá faitíos orm go bhfuil siad ag iarraidh leithscéal a fháil. Anois, b'fhéidir le breis is cúig bliana anuas, chím go bhfuil an fonn a bhí ar an Roinn, ar na cigirí agus ar na múinteoirí freisin ag laghdú. Níl an spiorad céanna iontu agus a bhí iontu 20 bliain ó shoin. Is é atá ciontach leis sin, ná na cuntais atá sna páipéirí—litreacha go dtí na páipéirí ag cáineadh na Gaeilge agus ag rá go bhfuil sí ag loiteadh an oideachais ar fad. Ní aontaím leis sin, ar chor ar bith. Do réir mar chím na páistí, níl páistí níos tuisceanaí ná níos fearr ná na páistí atá go maith ag an nGhaeilge.
Do chualas an Teachta Ó Coileáin ag rá nach bhfuil oideachas ar bith ar chuid de na páistí a bhíonn ag foghlaim na Gaeilge. Ní ar an nGaeilge atá an locht: bheadh siad sa dóigh chéanna mura mbeadh an Gaeilge ann. Deirimse é seo i ndáiríribh: bhí áthas orm nuair chuala mé go raibh an Teachta Ó Maolchatha toghtha mar Aire Oideachais. Dúras nach raibh aoinne ar an dtaobh thall chomh feiliúnach leis, agus bhí áthas orm dá réir; mar creidim pé difríochta atá eadrainn ar cheisteanna eile go bhfuil a chroí i gcúis na teangan agus gur mhaith leis an Ghaeilge bheith mar ghnáththeangain na tíre. Tá mise ar an dóigh chéanna agus ba cheart dúinn ar ndícheall do dhéanamh chun é sin a bhaint amach tríd an Roinn Oideachais agus ar aon bhealach eile is féidir. Ba cheart dúinn ár ndícheall a dhéanamh gan an cheist seo do chur i leataoibh a thuilleadh. Tá gluaiseachta eile sa tír agus tá mé ag tathaint orthu a ndícheall a dhéanamh faoi láthair mar táimid fada go leor ag cur na ceiste seo ar gcúil.
Na daoine a mhúineann trí Ghaeilge, má tá siad i ndáríribh, bíonn siad i bhfad níos fearr mar mhúinteoirí ná na daoine nach múineann trí Ghaeilge. Tá a fhios agam nach féidir le múinteoir mura bhfuil Gaeilge ar a dheis aige Gaeilge do mhúineadh go sásúil; ach na daoine go bhfuil Gaeilge acu, cuir í gcás, na múinteoirí óga, na múinteoirí a tháinig amach as na coláistí le deich mbliana anuas, tá Gaeilge acu agus is féidir leo gach ábhar léinn do mhúintrí Ghaeilge. Sna coláistí ullmhúcháin níor labhradar ar feadh an lae ach Gaeilge mar gnáth-theanga agus níl aon leithscéal ag na múinteoirí seo. Is féidir leo gach ábhar léinn do mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge agus ba cheart dóibh é sin a dhéanamh. Dúrathas ar an dtaobh eile inniu nach féidir an Ghaeilge d'athbheochaint lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht. Ní aontaím leis sin chor ar bith. Sé mo thuairimse go bhfuil cuid mhaith de na múinteoirí ón Ghaeltacht nach bhfuil ag déanamh leath chomh maith leis na múinteoirí a thagann ón Ghalltacht.
Ní fheadar cad cuige é sin?
Ní fheadar san; ach níl an spiorad ceart iontu.
It seems to me that this debate on the Education Estimates has largely turned on the question of the Irish language. As I have said, and I really mean it, I was glad that Deputy Mulcahy was chosen as Minister for Education, because I have observed him over the years and, in my opinion, he is very genuinely in favour of the restoration of the Irish language. In the changed circumstances, I am glad that he is Minister for Education. I suppose there is not much use in my offering advice to the Minister.
Tá sé ag teastáil uaim go géar.
I would advise him, however, not to give very much attention to those people who make mountains out of molehills in regard to this question of the teaching of the Irish language; those people who are telling him that everything is wrong with the system of teaching the language; that this compulsory Irish is ruining education, because a lot of these things are the excuses of people who do not appear to want the Irish language restored or, if they do, they do not want to take any trouble about it. The lip sympathy expressed by Deputy Collins, I think, is not very much good to the cause of the Irish language. If we do believe in the restoration of the Irish language, we have to work towards that end. It will not be done by keeping our mouths shut and not speaking Irish. I agree with Deputy Timoney that Irish should be spoken on every possible occasion.
When I taught Irish as an extra subject there was very little scope for development and no good results, so far as I could see. But it was a different matter after 1922 when the change of Government came about. We were then encouraged to teach the language. As one with long experience of teaching, I can say that until I began to use Irish as the medium of instruction in history, geography and subjects like that I never felt that I was making any real progress in the teaching of the language. I am of the same opinion to-day.
As to this talk of compulsion, is Irish to be the only optional subject on the school curriculum? There is practically no subject that is not compulsory, but Irish is to be made optional. Would it not be a strange state of affairs in this Irish Ireland of ours that Irish should be the only optional subject on the programme? That is, of course, the point of view of the person who wants to shelve Irish and do nothing for it. Undoubtedly, if we are to continue as we are, with very little earnestness, then we will not get far. My advice to the Minister is to try to get everybody interested in the matter at once. I have been speaking to members of the Fianna Fáil Organisation and to members of the G.A.A. on the matter and I am urging on every organisation with which I am in touch to get to work at once, because I believe that unless we get to work at once this problem of the restoration of the Irish language is not going to be solved. The farther we put it away the worse it will get; but it can be done.
I hate mentioning what any Deputy has stated, but Deputy Collins spoke about people being penalised through not knowing Irish. I do not believe that at all. Irish may get a certain percentage of marks. Take the case of the Local Appointments Commission. The fault I find with them is that they attach very little importance to Irish. They appoint county managers and others who have very little, if any, knowledge of Irish. I think that is quite wrong. There are plenty of other people equally capable who have a good knowledge of Irish. I hope the Minister will note what I am saying. I think there is too little importance attached to a knowledge of Irish. As for students in universities and secondary schools being less capable because they know Irish, that is sheer nonsense. Ask the professors in the university schools in Dublin, Cork and Galway are the Irish-speaking pupils not as good as or better than the others. In my opinion, they are better. In fact I know that the best pupils I ever taught were those who were best at Irish.
One of the other points I want to mention is the insanitary condition of most of our country schools. I am not raising this matter for the first time. I raised it with the previous Minister and others. I think that the sanitary conditions in our country schools are absolutely disgraceful. Whether it is done by the Department or through the public health bodies, it is time that something should be done about it. I am sure the Minister will do his best so far as the erection of schools is concerned. His predecessor did a great deal and deserves every praise for it. Of course at present there is much difficulty in constructing new schools. Building is a very serious matter at the present time. But the problem of sanitation is one that could be solved and should be solved.
I notice that the new Minister has expressed his determination to make school life happier for the pupils. I was glad to hear that. I saw in the papers where he referred to that matter at some conference or meeting. Undoubtedly, much more could be done to make the lives of the pupils happy. One particular matter I am interested in is the provision of sports fields or playing pitches for every school. I impressed on the Minister's predecessor that something should be done in that direction. I do not think it is impossible to do it. In the case of new schools, the provision of a suitable playing pitch of a fair size should be made compulsory. In the country districts Gaelic games are always played, but there should be some playing pitch provided. Where there is not such a pitch, every encouragement should be given to the managers of the schools to provide one. They will say they have not the money, but it is time for the Department of Education to step in and supply the want. That is one of the most necessary things in the country at present. In many schools the boys and girls go out and stand by the walls; they have nowhere to play. It is not very pleasant for them or the teachers who have to watch them.
As to raising the school leaving age, I hope the Minister will see that it is brought about. I impressed that matter on his predecessor on various occasions. So far as school space is concerned, it presents no difficulty in the country districts. In most cases the average is gone down and there is plenty of room in most of the country schools for whatever extra pupils there may be. There is, of course, an idea that the extra period should be spent in vocational or secondary schools. I do not think that is necessary. If it were confined to secondary and vocational schools, the scheme could not be put into operation at all because we have not enough of these schools. From my experience I can say that a year or two extra could be very usefully spent in the national schools if other schools are not available. The sooner that is done the better. The teaching of Irish can be done effectively and is done; but still there are two languages to be learned and it would be much better to have two years added to the child's school life. If you do that, with efficient teaching of both languages I think you will have a far better standard of education than in the past. As a matter of fact, many pupils are preparing to leave school even before they are 14. They have spent only eight or nine years at school, very often with very indifferent attendances. They cannot be proficient in all subjects and a year or two extra at school would make a great difference. I hope that the Minister will put into practice many of the things that he has referred to so nicely in regard to his programme for the future. I believe myself that he will make a genuine effort.
The task in connection with the Department of Education is a very big one. I notice that quite a number of Deputies mentioned that there was a lack of connection between the branches of education. I do not think that is so very real at all. The national schools fulfil their purpose by preparing their pupils for the vocational and secondary schools, while the secondary schools prepare their pupils for the university. There is not, therefore, that lack of coordination which some people seem to think there is. I think the system is fairly good as far as that is concerned. My own opinion is that, if there was the extra year or two for pupils in the national or whatever school may be selected for the purpose, there is going to be a vast improvement in the standard of education in the country.
I do not propose to keep the House very long. I do not know of any more important subject than the one we are discussing. It ought to be approached in a completely honest-to-God way. There should be no Party issues or Party spirit brought into its discussion. The amount of money involved in the training and education of our people is very considerable. It is the fundamental duty of a Government to train, educate and equip the boys and girls of the country in a way that will enable them to discharge their duties in the avocations and callings which they may follow later in life. Somebody has told us that an enlightened and educated democracy is the one thing required against ideologies which are subversive of the ethics of Christian teaching and philosophy, ideologies which are so apparent in the modern world to-day. Will any Deputy of about my own age contradict me when I say that the standard of education evident in the boys and girls coming out of our primary schools to-day is not at all comparable to the standard of education possessed by the boys and girls who came out under the much abused system of the old national schools.
That is rubbish.
Anything except Irish is rubbish with you. It is not rubbish but some people are very narrow and circumscribed in their views. For 20 years I have been a representative on the governing body of a university, and over that period professors have told me that the standard of education possessed by those entering the different faculties is nothing like the standard possessed by those who came out under the old British system from our national schools.
They did not believe you.
Those professors have said that to me and even the President, Professor O'Rahilly, said that it would be a good thing if some of those boys and girls were compelled to take their leaving standard twice before attempting to flounder through the faculties that they may enter in the university. The statisticians tell us that from 60 to 65 per cent. of our people get their living mainly from agriculture. Would it not be a good thing if in each national school in the country a small apartment were set aside for the training of our boys and girls after they had done their primary course to teach them elementary dairy science, social science and agricultural science? It would be a good thing to teach them how to milk a cow and rear a calf and many other things of a purely domestic and agricultural nature. Would it not be well to spend money in training and educating them in that way and so help to stem the flight from the land instead of teaching them algebra and the binominal theorem and all the progressions and all about stocks and shares? It would be better to teach them how to milk a cow. This 65 per cent. of our people are expected to stay on the land after they leave school and, therefore, I suggest they should be taught rural science. We are spending something like £4,500,000 on education. Therefore, they should be taught subjects that would lead them along to their natural callings in life. I know that in the secondary and technical schools the pupils are taught social science and rural science. The courses in those schools are only of value to the pupils who live within easy reach of them. Those who live miles and miles away cannot avail of the courses that are given in those schools. I am delighted that the Minister has decided to set up a council that will handle this whole question. I remember that 45 years ago or so the daily salutations between the people were spoken in Irish. I spoke them myself but I forget them now. You do not hear those Irish salutations to-day. I am not going to say anything against the national value of our native language. I am glad this council is to be set up. I subscribed to that idea four years ago when a motion dealing with it was discussed in the Seanad. It is a good idea that something should be done to get value for the money that we are spending on education so that our youth may be fitted to be able to meet and combat evils that are pregnant with disaster throughout the world to-day.
Is dóigh liom gur féidir le gach Teachta rud éicint a rá san díospóireacht seo agus is dóigh liom go bhfuil spéis speisialta ag gach Teachta ins an Meastachán. Is dóigh liom gurb é an fá ná go raibh gach Teachta uair éicint 'na dhalta scoile nó ba chóir go raibh. Rinneadh a lán tagairt le linn an díospóireachta do cheist na Gaeilge. Ceist an-thábhachtach an cheist sin agus dá bhrigh sin tá an-áthas ormsa, mar aon leis an Teachta Ó Ruairc, gur toghadh Risteárd Ua Maolchatha mar Aire Oideachais as na Teachtaí ar an dtaobh eile de'n Tigh. Tá fhios agam go maith go bhfuil an-tsuim ag an Aire i gceist na Gaeilge.
During the course of this debate much stress was laid on the Irish language. I agree that it requires the effort of every Deputy, by way of encouragement and otherwise, to revive our language. I believe it is only by a concerted effort, irrespective of Party, that we will revive the Irish language. But there are other aspects of our education which also require a lot of attention. Before I leave the question of Irish, I must refer to the remarks of Deputy Michael O'Higgins. He said that the defect really was in asking people to pass examinations in Irish in order to qualify them for different branches of life. He said that in order to qualify as a solicitor one must pass an Irish examination and, having passed his Irish examination, he was no more qualified to conduct his business in Irish the very next day than he was before ever he started to learn the language. I would say to Deputy O'Higgins that he was no more qualified to conduct the ordinary business of his profession in Irish the day after he qualified in his law examination proper. I do not say that in disparagement of Deputy O'Higgins or any other professional man in the House. The same applies to all the professions.
The defect lies in our system. When one qualifies as a solicitor or engineer under our present system he is qualified only to learn and I am sure most Deputies who have some experience of the professions will agree with me. Until such time as we have evolved a better system of qualification than, say, written or oral examinations, I am afraid we will have to adhere to the present practice. The point I am coming to is that in the schools the whole purpose of the system is for the passing of examinations. In the schools too much interest is being taken in preparing pupils to pass particular examinations, obtaining their primary leaving certificates, their intermediate certificates and their leaving certificates. It is a question of cramming all the time and once a particular pupil has written the last word of his final examination paper he begins to forget practically everything he has learned for that examination. Unless he follows up the education he has received in the school or in the university I submit his education has gone for nothing.
The teachers cannot be blamed for it. Take the case of the primary teacher. All the year round he has been pestered by the bugbear of inspectors who will swoop on him from the skies, as it were, at any particular time. He never knows when the inspector will come and if he has not the pupils up to the required pitch in the subjects on the curriculum he will get a knock sooner or later. It is not the teacher's fault; it is the fault of our system.
It is difficult to devise a better system, but there are certain aspects which might be remedied. Our educational system is devised purely for the purpose of passing examinations. Deputy Timoney struck a true note when he said that some time should be devoted to the teaching of civics, and there should be some time devoted to the cultural expansion of the minds of our youths and to the teaching of ordinary good manners and etiquette. Of course, the proper place for that would be in the home but, nevertheless, our young people should have an opportunity of getting some education in these particular aspects in the schools.
I referred to inspectors swooping from the clouds, as it were, on top of the unfortunate school teacher. I suggest that these inspectors are going around more like spies than inspectors. They are supposed to encourage teachers and not catch them out in minor defects. I have one instance in mind of an inspector who visited a school in Cork. He let the teacher carry on teaching the class while he went around inspecting the window sills. The main point of his report to the Department was that the window sills in this particular school were dirty. Surely it is not the function of the teacher to clean window sills and, when you have inspectors who report in such a manner, it is difficult to expect this teacher or any other teacher to be more efficient in his method of teaching.
There should be some system devised in order to expand the minds of our young people culturally. This has been done in some cases. I am sure the Minister, on his visit to Cork City recently, must have been impressed by the high standard when he visited Corfhaile na Sgol. That shows that some teachers were able to find time to teach the children drama and other such things.
Deputy Kitt referred to the different standards of education found in schools throughout the country. That applies in urban districts or parts of cities just as well as in the country. I have seen systems whereby pupils in a particular grade are divided into A and B classes. The better pupils are put into class A and the duller pupils are put into class B, although they are both in the same standard. I have known teachers to be continually teaching the pupils in class B and I think it would be only fair to those teachers to have some system of rotation established. For instance, the teacher of the B class after one year should be transferred to the A class for the next year. It will give him an opportunity of seeing what standard could be obtained when he reverts to class B in the following year.
There are some minor points about which I have heard complaints. I am told that text books are being distributed free to necessitous children in certain schools and these books have to last the children for three years. That is a very desirable scheme and I think it could be extended to the provision of copy books in these particular schools. Copy books are equally essential. If a teacher is charged with keeping these textbooks for three years running in the third year the textbooks are not fit for use. I suggest to the Minister that he should look into the present system to see if something cannot be done to improve matters. Not only should textbooks be provided but copy books should also be provided free for the children. Textbooks should be provided every year and not as at present every three years in each class.
A complaint was made to me recently with regard to the rent allowances for teachers. I have been told—I am open to correction if I am wong—that the rent allowance for teachers in the county borough areas is £30 whereas for teachers outside the borough areas the allowance is £10. There are teachers in Cork City who teach outside the borough area and their rent allowance is £10 while their colleagues who teach inside the borough area are in receipt of a rent allowance of £30. I do not think it is fair that there should be a difference of £20 in the rent allowance when, because they reside in the city, they are subject to the same rentals as those who teach in the city schools. When they have to live inside the borough area the rural teachers should get the same rent allowance as their city counterparts.
Reference was made to the provision of playing fields. I agree that such playing fields are very necessary. In my opinion more attention should be paid to athletics generally in the ordinary school curriculum. In connection with physical culture I think swimming is a very important subject but with the present lack of facilities I do not see how anything can be done. Swimming facilities should be made available. The season for open air swimming is very short in this country and, therefore, indoor baths should be made available. At the present time it is practically impossible to give instruction to pupils. If sufficient indoor baths were available throughout the country we could in time instruct all the children.
The Minister's appeal to keep this debate outside Party politics seems to have fallen upon deaf ears as far as Deputy Collins is concerned. He made references which called forth rejoinders from both sides of the House. He referred to people who were illiterate in two languages as a result of teaching through the medium of Irish. I am sure that Deputy Collins's object in making these remarks was to attack the administration of the Department of Education under the Fianna Fáil régime. Many of us here in this House are the products of that particular system of education. I certainly have no regrets that most of my education was done through the medium of Irish. I do not think I suffered by that. I am sure if Deputy Collins were serious he would agree that his standard of education has not suffered as a result of his having had to learn through the medium of Irish.
References have been made to the proposed establishment of a council of education. If such a council can produce a better system of education in this country, then I shall welcome it. I hope the Minister will make representation on this council as wide as possible particularly in regard to those men and women who are charged with the task of giving their children as decent a standard of education as they can on very limited incomes. I hope that he will not appoint too many university professors because it is with the children of the ordinary working classes that we are mainly concerned here.
So far as this debate is concerned it has in many respects developed into a debate on the policy of two different Administrations in regard to the Irish language. To some extent I think that is both right and proper because we all realise that the question of a language policy is one of vital importance to the people of this country. It is, therefore, only right that the policy should be fully debated in Parliament. As one of the younger Deputies in this House and as one who has had practical experience of the language policy both as a schoolboy and subsequently as a university graduate, I think there is a great deal to be said for the maintenance of the policy of the last two Administrations in connection with the revival of the language. I do feel, however, that there has been in the past and still is too much touchiness about our language policy. I myself have known speakers who, because they dared to utter a word of warning from a public platform, were immediately accused of being West Britons. That is absurd. Such accusations get us nowhere. I am glad this language policy has been discussed at such length by the House because it is a matter of considerable importance to all of us.
As a schoolboy and as a university graduate I went to the Gaeltacht for a number of years. Even as a schoolboy I noticed that each year as I went there one heard less and less Irish spoken as the common medium of expression amongst the people in that area. Whether that was a result of the invasion of English speaking learners into the Gaeltacht or not, the fact remained. I have come to the conclusion, from my own experience and from discussion with other people, that the language as a medium of ordinary conversation is decreasing year by year. There may be more people learning Irish at the present time; there may be more people who have a knowledge of Irish, but it is a knowledge for a particular purpose and not a knowledge of the language as a language.
