Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Mar 1949

Vol. 114 No. 13

Committee on Finance. - Vote No. 64—Army Pensions

Minister for Defence (Dr. O'Higgins)

I move:

That a sum not exceeding £565,700 be granted to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending the 31st day of March, 1950, for Wound and Disability Pensions, Further Pensions and Married Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 26 of 1923, No. 12 of 1927, No. 24 of 1932, No. 15 of 1937, No. 2 of 1941, No. 14 of 1943, and No. 3 of 1946); Military Service Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 48 of 1924, No. 26 of 1932, No. 43 of 1934, No. 33 of 1938, No. 5 of 1944, and Nos. 11 and 34 of 1945); Pensions, Allowances and Gratuities (No. 37 of 1936 and No. 9 of 1948); Payments in respect of Compensation for Members of the Local Defence Force (No. 19 of 1946), and for sundry Contributions and Expenses in respect thereof, etc.

This particular Estimate, governing the various Pensions Acts, allowances, etc., shows an increase of £39,290 on the Vote for last year. The sum of £848,550 may be distributed under the following general headings—pensions, allowances and gratuities come to £836,934; the cost of administration is £4,553, and incidentals come to £7,063. The £836,934, relating to pensions, allowances and gratuities, covers those actually under payment and those estimated to come in the course of payment during the financial year.

At the present moment we have under payment the following numbers —1,597 wound and disability pensions, costing £131,000 odd; 715 dependents' allowances, costing £20,000 odd; 13,716 military service pensions, costing £419,000; 1,270 Defence Forces pensions, costing £139,000; 34 Connaught Rangers' pensions, costing £1,047; 42 L.D.F. allowances, costing £1,865, and then there are 874 special allowances, costing £56,000. There are old awards amounting to £18,248.

In the course of the present year, as already indicated to Deputies in reply to questions from time to time, it is proposed to extend the date of applications for medals, to provide increased rates of pension in regard to disabilities arising from wounds, and to re-establish the Military Service Pensions Board to deal with appeals.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I would like to find out from the Minister when it is proposed to introduce amending legislation to the 1934 Act and to give effect to the promises made by members of the Coalition Government from many platforms prior to the election. No doubt these promises, when made, gave great hopes to many applicants who had applied under the 1934 Act and whose cases were already adjudicated upon. In a reply given by the Minister on April 14th, 1948—Volume 110, column 646—to a question tabled by Deputy Maguire, he promised he would examine the position in order to see what amendments could be made to the 1934 Act. Almost a year has passed and it appears to me that this matter it still under examination.

Surely, what these men are hoping for could be brought about by a simple amending Act? There should be no insuperable obstacle in the way. What is required is the will to do it and, judging by the attitude of the Minister for Defence and the Minister for Justice, who recently met a deputation of the Old I.R.A. Comrades' Association, it would appear to anyone that the Minister and his Department should be working day and night, burning, so to speak, the midnight oil, preparing the necessary legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy may not advocate legislation on an Estimate.

Dr. O'Higgins

The Deputy is really putting this by way of a question.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I should like to put it that way, with the permission of the Chair. The Minister should endeavour to rectify what these people consider, rightly or wrongly, a grievance. No doubt all the claims have been very carefully considered, but there are some applicants who consider they have a grievance and I maintain that the remedy lies in the hands of the Government. Nothing will be done, I am sure, on this side of the House, to hamper any proposals they may make.

It appears that many applicants were debarred from getting a pension because they were unable to prove that they had an engagement to their credit on certain specified dates. Therein lies the whole kernel of the problem. Could the Minister, at this stage, give us any indication when the proposed legislation will be introduced?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Chair was lenient with the Deputy after the intervention of the Minister, but he is now setting a bad example and I fear he will have to leave it at that.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I will put it this way, will the Minister carry out his promise?

An Ceann Comhairle

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

Mr. J.J. Collins

From my experience of the 1934 Act as a certifying officer I believe the whole trouble hinges on the fact that that Act made it obligatory that applicants should have engaged in at least one major engagement. If the Minister and his Government are sincere about their anxiety to overcome what they described as a flaw when they were on this side of the House, I would like the Minister to do something to wipe out that particular drawback when they are framing legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has been informed that he cannot advocate legislation further than he has done. He is now doing so again.

Mr. J.J. Collins

Very good, Sir.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has already said that and he is not so good.

Mr. J.J. Collins

When can I raise the matter?

An Ceann Comhairle

By way of a motion or a question, but not on Estimates. I know the Deputy is rather new to the House. It is not permissible to advocate legislation or criticise the merits or demerits of legislation on Estimates. That can only be done on the administration of Acts.

Mr. J.J. Collins

That being so, I shall conclude hoping for the best for that section of the Old I.R.A., which seems to have found new friends in the Opposition—I mean in the Coalition Government.

Mr. Donnellan

You were right the first time.

Mr. J.J. Collins

I hope that the promises made during the general election will be implemented. I hope those promises were not used only for propaganda purposes. Had I been here during the term of office of the Fianna Fáil Government I should have supported all the claims made by the Old I.R.A. The Minister should review the 1934 Act very carefully to discover ——

An Ceann Comhairle

I shall have to ask the Deputy to sit down.

Captain Cowan

The Minister has given the House an assurance that he is going to re-establish the Military Service Pensions Board and that there will be an increased rate of pensions provided for those in receipt of wound pensions. I think everybody both here and outside welcomes that assurance.

Mr. Byrne

Has the Minister given any consideration to the promise he gave to some members of this House that he would reconsider the position of those men who left the Army about two years ago just prior to the date being fixed for the increased pension rate? A promise was made that their cases would be reconsidered.

Dr. O'Higgins

That is quite right. You got that assurance.

Mr. Byrne

I have not got the dates at the moment.

Dr. O'Higgins

I am not holding you up for the date. You got that assurance.

Mr. O'Leary

Is it not true that the 1945 Act ties the Minister's hands in regard to the Old I.R.A., and the 1916 men? I understand that something is to be done about them after Easter. I would like to have an assurance from the Minister on that point.

Sir John Esmonde

I would like to draw the attention of the Minister to the fact that in the administration of the 1934 Act—as Deputy Collins mentioned—there was a flaw. The tribunal which sat for the purpose of ascertaining whether a person was or was not entitled to a pension put a certain meaning upon the words, "active service". It was in respect of that interpretation that the difficulty arose. I do not wish to advocate legislation, but if there is any new departure it will clarify the position.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is nicely put.

Sir John Esmonde

Some guide could be given to the tribunal as to the proper meaning of "active service". In my humble opinion it was construed in too narrow a sense under the 1934 Act. One had to be present at a major engagement or in some way connected with it. I have had active service in another sphere and I consider that one is on active service irrespective of whether one takes part in a major engagement or not. In my constituency a number of persons have a definite and legitimate grievance in that respect. They ventilate that grievance from time to time. I pointed this out six or seven years ago when I was on the Opposition Benches and I told the Minister for Defence that the restriction put upon the words was too narrow.

Vote put and agreed to.

Progress reported; Committee to sit again to-morrow.