Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 19 Jul 1949

Vol. 117 No. 9

Committee on Finance. - Price of Farmers' Butter—Motion.

Mr. Allen

I move the motion standing in my name and that of Deputy Beegan:—

That the Dáil is of opinion that the price of farmers' butter should be guaranteed by the Government at a price which will give the producer the same return for his milk as that received by the creamery suppliers.

I have no doubt that this will be a very popular motion and that it will get support and agreement from all sides of the House. I am sure it is one which will appeal to all Deputies. There is nothing of a political nature in it and it is one which every individual Deputy and every group can support without doing any violence to themselves. This matter was discussed on many occasions during the present year. Every Deputy is aware that there is general dissatisfaction amongst a big section of our farmers because of the return they are receiving and have received since the season opened this year for the sale of home-made butter. There is no doubt about that. The return received for home-made butter by farmers who have no other means of disposing of the produce of their cows is such that they cannot remain in production. Roughly, 50 per cent. of the milk of cows in this country is supplied to creameries. Of the balance, I suppose a proportion is used as raw milk, a certain proportion is used for butter in the farmers' own homes and the balance is made into farmers' butter to be sold on the open market, the fresh butter market or otherwise.

The Minister's predecessor provided for 1947 a scheme whereby farmers' butter received a subsidy and the farmers received 2/11d. per lb. for their butter. That scheme gave general satisfaction and enabled the people who are compelled, owing to the circumstances, to market home-made butter to get a fair return in comparison with what creamery suppliers were getting for their produce that year. But for the past two years they have not got a fair return. Last year things were bad, but this year things are much worse. The farmer who has to sell home-made butter is getting roughly half of what the creamery suppliers are getting for their produce. Nobody will say that the creamery suppliers are getting too much. As a matter of fact, I believe creamery suppliers are entitled to more than they are getting for their milk.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

How much more?

Mr. Allen

That is a matter for determination. Nobody will say they are getting too much. The average cow in this country, I suppose, could be said to be a 500-gallon cow. I think that is a fair estimate. Many people would say that the yield is much less. Probably an estimate of the milk production of the country would show that the average yield is only 400 or 450 gallons per cow. The creamery supplier, because of the help given to him out of taxation, is guaranteed 1/2 per gallon for his milk in the summer and 1/4 in the winter. The home butter maker is getting about half that. The home butter maker is being taxed by the authority of this Dáil in order to provide a subsidy for the creamery supplier. I think it is a great injustice that the farmer who is not getting an economic price for his home-made butter should be taxed in order to provide a subsidy for those who are supplying milk to creameries. I hope the House will view it in that way.

The Minister for Agriculture has given no good reason to the House as to why he did not continue the scheme that was operated by his predecessor in the matter of giving a subsidy on farmers' butter. He told us on a previous occasion that he found a certain amount of farmers' butter that was not the best, and that it was difficult to market it. Now, that is a very small problem. It is purely a matter of organisation. I do not want to hear anything to-night, and I am sure the House or the country do not want to hear anything, about all the bad butter that is produced by farmers, because that is not the case at all. There may be a very small percentage, but generally speaking that is not so. If there is a certain amount of home-made butter being produced that is not up to the highest standard, then it is the Minister's job, or the job of his Department, to see that the quality of it is stepped up. The Minister has the means at his disposal for doing that. The argument put forward by the Minister is no reason at all why he will not provide a subsidy for farmers' butter. His argument is unjust.

As regards farmers' butter, 99 per cent. of it is good edible butter, fit for human consumption. If there were weaknesses in the scheme that was in operation, and if there was a need for tightening up the system and of seeing that the butter factors graded the butter properly, that was a simple matter that could be put right by organisation. In the year 1947 a subsidy amounting to £90,000 was provided. Perhaps a greater amount would have been required this year, or perhaps a lesser sum would have been sufficient, but something needs to be done on this matter.

The number of creameries that we have in many counties is very small. Creameries scarcely exist at all in the Leinster counties.

Mr. Dillon

You closed down one.

Mr. Allen

If the Minister wants to talk about the closing down of creameries we can answer him on that very quickly. On a previous occasion here he expounded at length on the closing down of creameries. No creameries were closed down where there was a supply of milk available for them.

Mr. Dillon

Shelbourne was closed down.

Mr. Allen

A number of creameries were closed down in Laoighis, Offaly, Carlow, Wexford and other counties, because there were no milk supplies for them. The committees of management of those creameries were composed of farmers, shrewd, hard-headed business men who depend for their livelihood on what they can wring out of the land and on the return they can get from their cows. They, in their judgment, let it be right or wrong, decided to close down those creameries because, being good business men, they found that it was not a paying proposition to keep them going. The Minister, or any other member of the House, who might be engaged in business, would drop a special line of business if he found that it was not paying.

Mr. Dillon

And they sent Deputy Allen up to get me to sell the proceeds.

Mr. Allen

Farmers are entitled to exercise their judgment in the management of their business just as people in other businesses are. They are entitled to do what in their judgment is in their best interest, whether as members of a co-operative society or in any other way. I think the Minister will concede that right to them as business men. We had half a dozen creameries closed down because there was no milk supply in their areas. That is no reason why a subsidy should not be provided for farmers' butter, or why some steps should not be taken by the Government to bring the price of home-made butter up to the price which the creamery suppliers receive at the expense of the tax-payer. The tax-payer last year, in many areas, provided a subsidy for those who sent their milk to the creameries.

Mr. Dillon

That is quite untrue. Last year was the first year that the tax-payer paid a subsidy.

Mr. Allen

There is an Estimate this year for £2,300,000. The tax-payer provided that subsidy.

Mr. Dillon

To the consumer.

Mr. Allen

It is somewhat smaller now.

Mr. Dillon

Not now. It was.

Mr. Allen

The point must be kept in mind that creamery suppliers and others who produced butter during the years of the emergency were restricted in the price they got for their product. That product may have been worth more, but in the interests of the community they were restricted in the price they received. I am sure it will be admitted that the price they got for their dairy produce during those years was fairly low. That was done in the interests of the community—so that the community might get butter at a reasonable price. I hold that those who produce home-made butter are entitled to get a fair livelihood from their product in the same way as the man who produces wheat or beet or any other crop is entitled to get a fair livelihood from what he produces. I am sure that, in present circumstances, neither the Minister nor anybody else will say that a return of from £15 to £16 for the butter that the average cow produces is sufficient to pay a farmer. Unless farmers can get more, they must go out of cows, and half those cows are in the possession of farmers who make home-made butter.

Mr. Dillon

They could open a creamery.

Mr. Allen

If no creamery exists in their area, or if there is not one within a reasonable distance of them, they cannot send their milk to a creamery.

Mr. Dillon

They could start one.

Mr. Allen

It would take one, two or three years to do that. The starting of a creamery takes a considerable length of time and a good deal of energy.

Mr. Dillon

Shelbourne started one in three weeks.

Mr. Allen

It all depends on whether there is a sufficient number of cows in an area to make the opening of a creamery an economic proposition or not. Will the Minister, or his Department, undertake to start creameries and keep them going in any area where you have a sufficient number of cows, and, if necessary, provide a subsidy to keep those creameries in existence? You may, for instance, have 100, 200, or 500 cows in an area, but that number may not be sufficient to make a creamery economic. It is a well-known fact that most farmers go out of cows in districts where there is not a creamery, or where it is not economic to have one started.

I do not want to continue this argument any longer. The Minister knows the number of creameries in the country. It is not long since he answered a question on that. In many counties you have no creamery at all. There are only seven or eight areas in the country where you have a fair number of creameries, such as Cork, Kerry, Clare, Cavan, Kilkenny, Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford. The number of creameries outside of those counties is infinitesimal. You have counties with as many as 30,000 or 40,000 cows in which there is no creamery at all.

Mr. Dillon

How many cows are in County Wexford?

Mr. Allen

There are 36,000.

Mr. Dillon

And you closed down the creameries?

Mr. Allen

We have one creamery and two separating stations.

Mr. Dillon

But you closed down Shelbourne.

Mr. Allen

I did not close it down. It was closed down because, as the manager wrote to the Press when the Minister made his wild statement in the House some time ago, the creamery was kept open for a year without any milk going to it. That was the reason why Shelbourne was closed down. It served a very small part of Wexford anyway; it does not serve the area where they have the largest number of cows and where the largest amount of farmers' butter is produced. It is more a tillage than a cattleraising area; it always has been. It is more of a corn-growing area and always will remain so. Even if Shelbourne opened in the morning, it could not be made a butter-producing area, and the Minister must know that.

Mr. Dillon

What does the Deputy say is the cow centre in County Wexford?

Mr. Allen

There are a number of cow centres. There are several cow centres and several areas where farmers are selling butter at 1/6 to 1/8 per lb. I know farmers with 20 or 25 cows and they are trying to exist and to pay labour and they can hardly do it. It would need the produce of ten cows to pay one agricultural worker, and even then it would scarcely pay. him. I do not know how any farmer can hope to exist; he has to pay rent, rates and taxes, and all the outgoings and then maintain a family and produce farmers' butter. He cannot do it. The Minister has a responsibility to that type of farmer just as he has to any other type of farmer. Large numbers of these farmers are in a serious plight.

I ask the Dáil to support this motion. The Minister should treat all farmers alike, whether they are producing farmers' butter or any other type of produce, and so enable them to get a livelihood out of their farms, whatever their produce may be. This is a simple motion. It is one that every Deputy has sympathy with and I have no doubt every Deputy will support it. I trust the Minister will indicate that he is accepting the motion.

Mr. Beegan

If I formally second the motion and give an opportunity to other Deputies to speak on it, can I speak at a later stage?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy can reserve his right to speak.

Mr. Beegan

Then I formally second the motion.

An Ceann Comhairle resumed the Chair.

Mr. Cogan

Having regard to the fact that there are a number of motions on the Paper, tabled by farmer Deputies, including myself and Deputy O'Reilly, and that they have been there for over 12 months, before this motion was tabled, I am rather at a loss to know how this particular motion was catapulted into the forefront and how it got priority.

An Ceann Comhairle

It got priority by reason of the fact that the Government gave it time.

Mr. Cogan

The fact remains that this motion has got priority over a number of very important motions dealing with agriculture. I do not know how that came about, but I will not go into that matter any further.

Mr. P.J. Burke

Join this Party.

Mr. Cogan

I will not agree with that either. This motion has only one disadvantage, and that is that it was incubated by the Fianna Fáil Party, who, over a very long period, did not show any intense interest in the farming community. If, however, we are prepared to ignore the manner and the place of this motion's incubation, and the circumstances under which it comes before the House, and if we are prepared to consider it on its merits, I think the Minister should have no hesitation in accepting it. There is nothing wrong with it. We have to be logical in matters of this kind.

All citizens pay taxes. The man who produces farmers' butter pays taxes just as well as the man who supplies the creamery, and if there is a subsidy on butter it should apply to all butter that is of good quality. There is no point in subsidising butter of bad quality and I do not think anybody will advocate the subsidising of poor quality butter. Nobody will question the contention that farmers' butter of good quality is equal to—and, I contend, superior to—the best that the creameries can produce.

The main issue raised in this matter is whether we are as a State going to suppress or discourage the production of butter on the farm and, by administrative measures, force the farmer to build creameries and supply his milk to those creameries. On that issue I am prepared to consider this motion. I believe that over a considerable area creameries have proved a very substantial success. Over a very considerable area also, particularly in Leinster and in some counties in other provinces, creameries, in spite of all the efforts made to boost them, have failed rather miserably.

I speak with experience of this matter. When I started to farm I was one of those who initiated the establishment of a creamery in my area. I was one of those who canvassed the necessary supply of good milk to sustain that creamery. That was in 1929. Organisers came down from the Department and from the Agricultural Organisation Society to urge on the praiseworthy work of establishing a creamery. We established that creamery on the assumption that the price of milk would range about 6d. per gallon. Hardly had we the building completed when the price of butter on the world market collapsed and we who pioneered that creamery found ourselves supplying milk to it at 2d. and 2½d. per gallon.

That was not an economic proposition. The creameries struggled on for a number of years and eventually they failed. There is no Party issue of any kind raised in this matter. The failure of that creamery and a number of other creameries was due to the collapse in the price of butter in the world markets. It may be asked why did those particular creameries collapse while others in Munster and Kilkenny continued to survive. The fact is that the supplies of milk to the Leinster creameries were not as large as the supplies to the Munster creameries. The creameries themselves were not so long established. They were unable to weather the storm.

But several other remarkable factors intervened in regard to the Leinster creameries. Farmers were encouraged to keep a good herd of cows in order to provide milk to the creameries. These farmers found it more remunerative to supply milk to the city and the creameries lost their support. A certain amount of competition was offered by good quality farmers' butter. The establishment of the creamery in these areas resulted in a reduction in the quantity of farmers' butter offered for local consumption. That, in turn, enhanced the price of farmers' butter. These farmers stood out. They found that the establishment of the creameries improved their position to the detriment of those who actually supported the creameries. All these factors are remembered by the farmers in the Leinster counties. In 1929-1930 a number of creameries were established all over Leinster. Almost all of them failed. The Minister was rather severe on a particular creamery in Wexford, but he could be equally severe on the other creameries that collapsed. In doing so, I think he would be very unjust.

Mr. Dillon

Shelbourne is a very wealthy body.

Mr. Cogan

That is true, but the position in regard to Shelbourne creamery was that when they found they could not produce butter at a profit owing to the collapse, they turned over to more profitable enterprises.

Mr. Dillon

And left the labourers in the lurch.

Mr. Cogan

I do not quite agree with that. The farmers found there was nothing in the creamery for them as far as butter was concerned and the creamery society, so far from leaving anyone in the lurch, helped them by supplying them with cheap seeds and manures and products other than milk. I think Shelbourne Society was rather lucky inasmuch as the manager there had the initiative and enterprise to go into other enterprises. In the other bankrupt creameries the unfortunate shareholders had to make good the deficit. The memory of those failures is fairly green as far as the shareholders in those enterprises are concerned. The farmers will not be very enthusiastic about re-establishing these creameries.

This issue can be decided on its merits. Is it better to establish creameries in Wexford, Carlow, Kildare and elsewhere rather than encourage the farmers to manufacture butter on their own farms? There is a certain amount of merit on both sides. The creamery is a big organisation with up-to-date machinery; it can handle a large quantity of milk efficiently and it can produce a uniform type of butter. On the other hand, supplying milk to the creamery involves the farmer in a good deal of lost time. It also helps to spread disease amongst young stock because of the mixing and blending of large quantities of separated milk. It does not give the uniform type of milk the farmer would have if he separated it on his own farm because milk delivered to the creameries will vary in degrees of sourness according to the distance it has travelled and the particular type of weather. It also has the disadvantage of making the farmer dependent on factors such as trade unions and transport. These are things of which he would like to be independent.

If the farmer makes his own butter in his own dairy, he will separate the milk each morning and he will have a uniform commodity to feed to his stock. There is no danger of contamination owing to blending. It may be said that dairying on the farm involves a good deal of manual labour. With the progress being made in regard to rural electrification, that labour will be a thing of the past in a very few years. Added to that, there is the fact that well-made farmers' butter has a distinctive flavour which no creamery can ever hope to equal. It excels creamery butter. That is agreed by all those who have tried both and who have been fortunate enough to procure the best quality farmers' butter. Taking all those facts into consideration, I think the balance of merit lies in favour of letting the people who are at present making country butter, particularly in areas not near an established creamery, continue to make that butter. If the Minister decides to promote the ultimate establishment of creameries in every area. I think it is very unfair, pending the establishment of such creameries, to compel the people who live in areas where creameries are not in existence to suffer the loss of that State subsidy which is paid to people engaged in producing a similar type of commodity.

In matters of this kind we have got to be absolutely just as between one citizen and another. You cannot collect taxation from people generally and show favour in the distribution of the benefits of that taxation. The person who is thoroughly efficient in the production of home-made butter is as much entitled to a subsidy as the person who supplies milk to the creamery. I think the Minister should consider the enactment of this motion. The motion, as the Minister will see, is not very specifically worded. It gives a certain amount of latitude to the Minister. It says:—

"that the price of farmers' butter should be guaranteed by the Government at a price which will give the producer the same return for his milk as that received by the creamery suppliers."

That does not mean, of course, that the farmer will get the same price as the creamery, that is, 1/2 a lb. It would be almost equal to something over 3/- a lb.

Mr. Dillon

Is that not what the motion says?

Mr. Cogan

Yes. Consideration should be given to the cost to the farmer of the carriage of this milk to the creamery and so on. All those things should be taken into consideration and I think the Minister could meet this motion very easily and very fairly without any very severe loss to the Exchequer. Certainly, he would be doing an act of justice to a very industrious and honest section of the community.

On several occasions the Minister has said in this House that a person who makes good quality farmers' butter would have no worry about finding a market for it. That is true to a certain extent of the person who makes high-class farmers' butter and has a supply all the year round. That person can, and very usually does, find a good customer for the butter. However, we are dealing with a very large section of the community which makes excellent butter but only for three or four months in the year—the summer months—just the same as people who supply creameries only supply on a large scale during the summer months. Those people have not the regular allthe-year customers and cannot expect to have. Those are the people about whom I am particularly worried and I think they are the people who should be considered. The people who make really bad butter do not deserve any consideration from anybody. They are the people who ruin the market to a great extent. I do not think the farming community should be blamed for it. One pound of bad butter amongst a hundred pounds of good butter will contaminate the entire amount.

The Minister knows as well as I do that during the last ten years the whole system of collecting farmers' butter has deteriorated to an alarming extent. Twenty or 30 years ago there were butter markets in every town where butter buyers, mostly from Cork, came on one day of the week and bought up the butter and paid according to the grade. However, in recent years, particularly during the emergency, the buying and collecting of farmers' butter has been left mainly to the small shopkeeper. Everyone knows that the small shopkeeper, and even the large shopkeeper, cannot grade butter properly. He has no proper way of storing it. It is altogether wrong. It would be well if we were able to go back to ten years ago when we had those buyers going round from one town to another on one day of the week. They were not afraid to grade the butter because they were not dependent on the customers. They graded the butter and paid for it accordingly.

There is another factor which must enter into this matter. It must interest the Minister very much and it is this. Twenty years ago, in areas where country butter was made, the butter-making instructresses were exceptionally zealous in all counties in carrying out the instructions in the production of country butter. Classes were held regularly in almost every district. During the past ten years classes have lapsed and those instructresses have turned over to concentrate more on poultry production, and there is very little interest taken at the moment in the Department in improving the quality of country butter Therefore, if we are going to start casting blame at the farming community because butter is of bad quality, I think the Department must take a certain amount of that blame. The whole case of this motion rests simply upon justice. You cannot discriminate between one section of the community and another. You cannot give one person who makes good quality creamery butter preference over the person who makes good quality country butter. They are both tax-payers in the same State and you have got to treat them equally.

A great deal of argument against helping the production of country butter was based on the fact that a considerable quantity of butter purchased under the purchasing scheme of 1947 went bad. The fact of the matter is that that butter could not fail to go bad because—I am not going to cast blame one way or the other, the scheme was only in its first year—the system under which butter was purchased was altogether wrong. It was left, in the main, to the small shopkeepers to buy the one sort of butter and keep it lying out in a store along with other kinds of commodities for perhaps two or three weeks and that did not improve it. In the same way, if the small shopkeeper buys good quality butter and mixes it with one or two pounds of an inferior type it is going to deteriorate. If that scheme is to be put into operation again, it must be put into operation on somewhat more efficient lines. There must be somewhat stricter supervision of the purchasing and the grading of butter. There must be an immediate rejection of any butter that is of very inferior quality. That is essential if the scheme is to work at all.

I do not consider that this motion creates any difficulties for the Minister and I think it should be accepted by him. One of the factors in connection with the matter is that, although I have complained that the motion was not very long on the Order Paper, it has been long enough to allow the peak point of production of butter for the present year to have passed. If the Minister accepts this motion he will not be presented with any very severe problem for the present year and he will be able to make necessary arrangements and adjustments so far as the coming year is concerned. I therefore ask him to accept the motion.

Minister for Agriculture (Mr. Dillon)

When we were discussing this matter in the House on a previous occasion, not two months ago, I said to Deputy Allen that he must have a countenance of molybdenum, because brass would not endure the indecency he had displayed. Deputy Allen, and Deputy Dr. Ryan sitting beside him, represent Wexford and they come to the House and report that their neighbours in Wexford are hard pressed, inasmuch as they have an abundance of milk and no means of disposing of it except to convert it into farmers' butter for which there is no market. Now, Deputy Allen and Deputy Ryan have on the committee of the Shelbourne creamery a number of close friends and political associates, men who have made no disguise of their intentions to exercise the democratic freedom of this country to proclaim themselves devoted adherents of these two public men. The Shelbourne creamery society is one of the richest corporations in this country. It pays no income-tax. It is a co-operative society which justifies its existence on the plea that its sole purpose is to serve the farmers and the community resident in the area where it functions. The Shelbourne Co-operative Society operated three creameries in the southern half of the County Wexford and, side by side with that creamery business, they operated a large retail and wholesale business which yielded them much profit.

Now, they could do either of two things. They could distribute the profits amongst their customer members or they could charge that profit, on which they are not asked to pay any income-tax, with the duty of providing a necessary amenity for their neighbours in the form, not of the creation of a new creamery but of maintaining the existing creamery. But Deputy Allen's hard-headed friends, according to himself, sat down, cast up their accounts and said: "Boys, we can make more than this if we shut down the creamery and let the neighbours take a running jump at themselves." So Deputy Allen's hard-headed friends sat down and closed not one creamery but three creameries, and the House hears the position that Deputy Allen paints—hundreds of farmers, some of them with 20 cows and 25 cows, at their wits' end to know what they will do with the milk of their cows since Shelburne closed the creamery. And Deputy Allen has the cast-iron, nickel-plated countenance to come in here and hold himself out as the champion of these afflicted farmers, he and his friends having created the very situation which embarrasses and harasses these hard-working men. How far is it possible to masquerade before our people and to put your finger in their eye——

Mr. Smith

Hear, hear.

Mr. Dillon

Well, now, Deputy Smith is growing away "Hear, hear". He knows the facts, that Shelburne closed down three creameries.

Mr. Allen

And the Slaney valley closed down four creameries.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Allen and Deputy Dr. Ryan are the bosom friends and the political leaders of the members of the Shelburne Co-operative Society Creamery.

Dr. Ryan

Every big farmer is a friend of ours.

Mr. Dillon

I will bet you have heard enough about the Shelburne Co-operative Society, but you will hear more about it.

Donnchadh Ó Briain

A slander. They have denied publicly in a letter everything you said.

Mr. Dillon

Let us find out where the slander is. Is it true that Shelburne Co-operative Society is in South Wexford? No one will deny that. The Germans dropped a bomb and we paid compensation for the buildings thereby injured, and rightly so. No one will deny that they had two subsidiary branch creameries—in all, three creameries. No one will deny that Shelburne is a well-run and very prosperous corporation.

Mr. Allen

Due to the efficiency of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Dillon

Yes, highly efficient at lining its own pockets. No one will deny Fianna Fáil credit for that. No one will deny that being a co-operative society, registered under the Friendly Societies Act, it pays no income-tax.

Mr. Allen

That is the law of the land.

Mr. Dillon

That is the law of the land. We also agree to that. I should like to see a person who professes to be the interested servant of his neighbours and who, on account of that profession, is exempt from income tax, cheerfully facing the outlay of that profit, on which he has to pay no tax, on the maintenance of a creamery on a less profitable basis than might otherwise be justified for the convenience of neighbours, harassed and distressed as Deputy Allen described them. If any other Deputy in this House were living amongst neighbours who suffered under the burden that Deputy Allen has described for us, would he hesitate to go to a wealthy corporation enjoying this income-tax exemption and suggest to them not to build a creamery but just to re-open the doors of the two branch creameries that were there formerly and to rebuild the creamery that was hit by a bomb with the money which this House provided for the Shelburne Society on the understanding that it would be built?

Mr. Allen

I want to raise a point of order. Is it in order for a Minister of this State to attack in this House under cover of this House a co-operative society and make charges here that are grossly untrue against that society?

An Ceann Comhairle

It is a question of fact.

Mr. Allen

Yes, a question of fact.

An Ceann Comhairle

On which, obviously, I cannot judge.

Mr. O'Rourke

Can you judge if the Minister is speaking on the motion at all?

Mr. Dillon

Oh, yes, it is most relevant.

Mr. O'Rourke

I cannot see it.

Mr. Allen

You will not get out of it that way.

Mr. Dillon

Were there three creameries in Wexford or were there not? Would these three creameries not have absorbed all the milk at present converted into farmers' butter? If they would, why are they not absorbing it? Is it because Deputy Allen's friends shut them down because they could not make enough profit out of them? If it is true, ought not Deputy Allen crawl under the bench and hide his head for shame?

Mr. Allen

Not on my belly like you.

Mr. Dillon

He is a poor creature, Deputy Allen.

Mr. O'Rourke

For pity's sake, a Chinn Chomhairle, will you put a stop to this nonsense? We have enough of this damn nonsense.

Mr. Dillon

And he hopes by gathering the ruck of his Party to cover his shame. but even that device will not leave him with a rag upon him to conceal his shame. I propose now to expose him——

Mr. O'Rourke

I ask you, a Chinn Chomhairle, to ask the Minister to deal with the motion. We will not sit here until midnight to deal with this nonsense.

An Ceann Comhairle

The question is not the character of Deputy Allen, but the price of farmers' butter.

Mr. Dillon

The motion was proposed by Deputy Allen——

An Ceann Comhairle

And by Deputy Beegan, and I do not see that their character is a matter for discussion or the character of any other man who proposes a motion.

Mr. Dillon

The motion is:—

"That the Dáil is of opinion that the price of farmers' butter should be guaranteed by the Government at a price which will give the producer the same return for his milk as that received by the creamery, suppliers."

Deputy Allen is solicitous to secure for the people who have to convert their milk into farmers' butter the same amenities as would be secured to them if they had the opportunity of sending it to the creameries. Deputy Allen is the man who prevented them from sending it to the creameries.

Mr. O'Rourke

In the province of Connacht? Shelburne creamery is only one small spot in Ireland.

Mr. Dillon

The helpful troops are trying to divert the lightning——

Mr. O'Rourke

Divert stupidity.

Mr. Dillon

——but they should be careful or we might get around to their history.

An Ceann Comhairle

Their history is not relevant.

Mr. Dillon

The history of the proposer of the motion is relevant.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not aware that Deputy Allen owns the creamery.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Allen effectively controls it together with Deputy Dr. Ryan. I know that much. Surely, Sir, I am not constrained to ignore that significant fact?

Mr. Allen

I want to say definitely and specifically that I never had anything to do with the creamery, good, bad or indifferent. I live 50 miles from the creamery.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy lives near Courtown and Deputy Dr. Ryan lives nearer the headquarters of the creamery, but the radiant personality of both Deputies——

Dr. Ryan

I am keeping quiet in the hope that the Minister will come to the motion.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy wants to divert the House from the fact that the case for the motion was founded by Deputy Allen on the distressful condition of his neighbours in Wexford and he has always been able to make a profit out of butter under the previous Administration. It is necessary that the House should know the source of the circumstances of which he complained and I am surprised that Deputies who denied the people of Wexford the creamery facilities which would have relieved them of their present straits would be so sensitive.

There is not the least use in wailing about the decline of the market for farmers' butter. I have pointed out in this House before that farmers' butter well made is in every respect a product equal in excellence to creamery butter, but I pointed out again that many other of the traditional products of the rural community are in intrinsic worth equal to the quasi-industrial product but that does not by any means ensure that they will command a comparable market. Homespun yarn is in many ways much superior to factory made knitting wool. Twenty-five years ago in a large part of rural Ireland it was preferred and those with the wisdom to prefer it bought the more enduring article with superior qualities. Try to sell it now. It is still superior to the factory produced product. Public taste has changed. You could get the material to make a Foxford heavy tweed coat and it was superior to other materials. It is still superior to other materials, but whereas our grandfathers bought the Foxford product for its excellence, their grandchildren will not buy it. Exactly the same is true of farmers' butter. Farmers' butter well made is in many regards a better product than creamery butter. Farmers' butter to-day well made is in many respects, in my personal judgment, a superior article to creamery butter.

Mr. Hickey

You would not get many to share that view.

Mr. Dillon

There you are. Deputy Hickey points out that the public taste has changed, but 30 years ago you would have had a great many people who took that view. There is no change in the relative value of the two products, but the public taste has changed and I cannot change it back again. I was recently speaking at the Cork Committee of Agriculture and one farmers' representative suggested in public that there should be made available for him during the hay-making and harvesting operations supplementary quotas of butter for the men he might have working on his land. I said to that member of the county committee: "But you can have as much farmers' butter as you care to buy" and he replied to me: "Ah, sure they would not eat it." I do not think I was unreasonable in saying to him: "If you cannot get the people in Bantry to eat farmers' butter, how do you expect me to sell it in Battersea and Birmingham? They have as much right to exercise a personal choice as have the residents of Bantry, and I cannot command them to change their taste, any more than you can command the agricultural workers in Bantry to change their taste". Sometimes I feel the futility of arguments of this kind for I know perfectly well that not a single Deputy on the Fianna Fáil Benches believes for one moment in the tedious tripe we have had to listen to from Deputy Allen. But it is thought to be good politics. Deputy Allen should have learned a lesson from West Cork.

Mr. Allen

It is over there the lesson has been learned.

Mr. Dillon

It was thought a great triumph to have farmers' butter as an issue in West Cork. There were a lot of decent people in West Cork who did feel, and feel severely, the impact of the decline in the farmers' butter market, but acting on a very sound principle of politics in this country, I was afforded, by the courtesy of Cork County Committee of Agriculture, an opportunity of speaking for the record in Cork on the first Saturday that the campaign was in progress, and the topic on which I chose to address the Cork County Committee of Agriculture was farmers' butter. I told them the truth about it and an awful lot of farmers and their wives came out and voted in West Cork.

Mr. T. Walsh

You selected a good county to talk about.

Mr. S. Collins

The best in Ireland.

Mr. Dillon

It is a county where a lot of people have felt sorely the decline in the farmers' butter market. If there were any people in Ireland for whom one would have wished to lighten the burden it would have been the people of West Cork, because they are an independent, proud people who are never on the ramble looking for doles or grants or anything else if they are let earn their living. But my instinct was perfectly right. When I laid the facts of the case before them I do not believe that ten votes were turned away from the inter-Party Government candidate by the tripe talked about farmers' butter, one of the many boomerangs the boys let fly —farmers' butter, 2/6 eggs, and the Minister does not like fish.

Mr. O'Rourke

Except cod.

Mr. Dillon

I saw a picture of a black man throwing a boomerang in the papers a couple of days ago and I thought of the boys. Deputy Cogan makes the case that farmers' butter is in many cases superior to creamery butter. I think a great many people will agree with him. I do. It is my misfortune to like farmers' butter. I suppose a Minister for Agriculture ought to like creamery butter. I prefer farmers' butter, but I tried to explain to the House before that the difficulty that arises in connection with the kind of scheme my predecessor, Deputy Smith, sought to administer was that when he subsidised the price of farmers' butter on the market to ensure that farmers' butter, sold on the open market, would fetch 2/11 per lb., what happened was that all the inferior butter came out on the public market to get the 2/11. The woman who had good butter had not to go hawking it around at all. She had her customer at hand who was always glad to take it from her and pay her her demand. How can Deputy Cogan suggest that these people who have farmers' butter superior in quality to creamery butter are unable to sell it at 2/8 or 2/9?

Mr. Cogan

They have it only for a few months.

Mr. Dillon

I know, but, even so, while creamery butter is rationed, must there not be somebody who is prepared to pay at least the same price for extra butter of superior quality? Suppose creamery butter is rationed and farmers' butter is a better product, surely any rational citizen will leave the creamery ration after him and take his ration in the superior farmers' butter at 2/8. I am taking it that Deputy Cogan is arguing on the merits. Is it not manifest that if you have a good article and a better article, both available, it is only a very eccentric person who will take the inferior article and pay the same price for it? If the farmers' butter is better than the creamery butter, surely there are enough rational people in the country who in time of plenty will buy it rather than pay the same price for something not so good. That is substantially what is happening.

The woman who makes the good butter has her customers. A lot of people want to suggest that to say that some of the farmers' butter made in rural Ireland is of second quality constitutes a reflection on the women who make it. That is all cod. It is no crime not to be an expert butter maker. Some women, taking every precaution they know how to take, have not got the knack of making butter, and when they bring butter into the town they do their business in, nobody wants to buy it from them for their own consumption, but they go into the shop they deal in and the shopkeeper, out of courtesy to his customer, must oblige her by taking the butter and trying to sell it thereafter to the best advantage he can. Faced with this problem, there are two courses of conduct—in fact, there is really only one —open to a well-intentioned person, that is, to do all he can to help the people who have hitherto been dependent on farmers' butter for disposing of their milk. The alternative is to act the rôle of the mischievous trouble-maker braying for everything he knows will render a solution of the problem most difficult.

Deputy Allen knows perfectly well that a repetition of what happened in 1947 is something that no same Government would stand for. We spent in 1947 between £70,000 and £80,000 in subsidy and found ultimately that we had left on our hands 2,100 cwts. of butter that was playing the Marseillaise down in the cold store. We succeeded in arranging to have that butter consigned to Great Britain for reconstitution, which is a process of treatment rendering it suitable for incorporation in certain types of confectionery, and were glad to sell it on that basis at a loss, taking the subsidy paid upon it into consideration, of £18,000. Is there any rational soul in this House or outside it who will suggest that this year again we should proceed to spend practically £100,000 of the public's money on persuading people to buy that which we all know is an article for which the market is disappearing and will shortly disappear altogether?

Mr. O'Rourke

Is it not your policy that it should disappear?

Mr. Dillon

I hear Deputy O'Rourke rumbling over there.

Mr. O'Rourke

I said why should it not. There is nothing to stop it.

Mr. Dillon

The Deputy is very silly. The only difference between me and my predecessor is——

Dr. Ryan

There is a big difference.

Mr. Dillon

——that I told the producers what the facts are and that, without ladling out public money to induce decent people to waste good milk by converting it into a commodity which was unsaleable at home or abroad, I told them—unlike Deputy Allen and Deputy Dr. Ryan who closed their creameries, or Deputy Smith who smelt out the North Wall with the residue of their production at a cost of £100,000—that I conceived it to be the duty of the Government to take all possible measures to enable people who produce milk to sell it profitably and to ensure that it would pass into consumption as the valuable foodstuff that it is.

A Deputy

It is not car grease.

Mr. Dillon

Accordingly, my first concern was to provide an alternative user for milk because I knew that when I came to sell on the only market that was prepared to consume it—farmers' butter—the best I could do was to get a price that I thought represented an inadequate reward for the farmers who produced the butter. Accordingly, I proceeded to cast around for alternative markets for milk—to expand them and to make them available for those who hitherto have made farmers' butter. Somebody said here to-day that the Government in the past years provided a subsidy of £2,000,000 odd for the farmers of this country producing butter. That is not true. Up to last year, the £2,000,000 odd that was paid out in subsidy was not a subsidy to the farmers but a subsidy to the consumers in this country.

Dr. Ryan

How was that?

Mr. Dillon

If the farmers had been allowed to export their butter freely——

Mr. O'Rourke

"If".

Mr. Dillon

——they could have got a higher price on the world market. They were asked to keep it at home. They were constrained to keep it at home. In that situation, the public were permitted to buy it at 2/8 a lb. retail. The world——

Mr. Killilea

Does the Minister suggest that the people in Ireland should starve?

Mr. Dillon

The farmer, had he been free, could have sold it abroad. Surely it is fair to say that if he is prevented from selling it at 3/6 abroad and compelled instead to keep it at home, the money paid out by the Government in respect of butter is not a subsidy to the farmer—it is a subsidy to the consumer.

Mr. Killilea

Tell us about what happened in the last 15 months in regard to the outside market.

Mr. Dillon

I am going to tell the Deputy that distressing news because it will be good for his soul. Up to 18 months ago the subsidy was a subsidy for the consumer and represented no subsidy at all to the farmer. That is no longer true because now the world price is very different. Up to a fortnight ago the world price was 321/6. As from the 1st October there is available a surplus of butter which is on offer at 271/6.

Mr. Cogan

From that argument it would seem that this is not a good time to start building creameries.

Mr. Dillon

This year my problem was to meet the immediate difficulties of the men who produce dairy butter, farmers' butter. Accordingly, I opened negotiations with the British Ministry of Food and secured for them from them a price of 233/4 per cwt. f.o.b. Cork. That figure is 38/- a cwt. less than the new price for creamery butter—4d. a lb. Mark you, 4d. a lb. less than the world price for top quality creamery butter is not such a bad price to get for farmers' butter. As usual, my responsible and far-seeing colleagues elect to open this debate when I am in the middle of negotiations with the British Ministry of Food—trying to get them to continue paying 233/4 up to the 30th September. I am not without hope that I may prevail upon them to do so. We have already sent out 10,000 cwts. of farmers' butter. We may have a good deal more—and we are getting for it 4d. per lb. less than the new price for top quality Danish creamery butter. Does that represent more constructive help for the producer of farmers' butter than bawling here in Dáil Éireann about closing creameries in County Wexford?

Mr. T. Walsh

It still represents 7d. a lb. less.

Mr. Dillon

Nonsense. Four pence a lb. less. Mathematics, please. Do not be silly. I have spoken of the development of alternative markets. One of the first to which we should turn our minds is to increase the consumption of liquid milk amongst our own people. In 1945 the average daily consumption of milk in the City of Dublin was 46,000 gallons. In 1949 it is 52,000 gallons.

Captain Cowan

And the price, of course, is absolutely exorbitant to the consumer.

Mr. Dillon

I think that is too strong a word.

Captain Cowan

As a consumer, I would like to think of a stronger word.

Mr. Dillon

In Cork, the consumption in 1945 was 9,000 gallons a day, while in 1949 it is 10,000 gallons. We intend to expand it.

Let me pause for a moment to say what an inestimable treasure our people have in the Dairy Disposals Board. I remember, on occasion, when my predecessors, Deputy Smith and Deputy Dr. Ryan, were Ministers for Agriculture, remonstrating with them for that they did not recall that the statute which instituted that body named it the Dairy Disposals Board and wondering that they did not wind it up. Now that I have been 12 months Minister for Agriculture, I know the reason why. It is because it would be terribly difficult to provide for the farmers who keep cows if we had not the Dairy Disposals Board and their incomparable staff to employ in their service. During the recent difficulties of this year, it would be very hard to form a correct estimate of the extent to which the board and its officers of infinite resource succeeded in relieving the severe difficulties of farmers who were really in a state of urgent embarrassment. I ask the House to note especially that it was not in West Cork they functioned exclusively, though function they do and have done there. One of the areas in which a problem of difficulty arose was South Galway and North Clare. Others to whom I turned and asked for help to organise co-operative means of processing and selling milk declared themselves quite unequal to such an undertaking; but the Dairy Disposals Board made the following provisions.

In the district between Ennistymon and Gort they made creamery facilities available within four to six miles of every farmer's home, by the use of a travelling creamery. In Inagh and Shragh Cross similar provision was made to collect milk which would otherwise have had to be converted into farmers' butter. At Clarecastle, in West Clare, creamery facilities were made available. Another travelling creamery is in the process of construction to add to the service already provided in the Ennistymon-Gort area. We are erecting a new creamery at Doon, Ballybunion. The Dicksgrove creamery group is providing additional travelling creamery facilities. Provision has been made for the milk supply available in Ballydehob. Drinagh group creamery has been asked by officers of my Department to make provision for the milk produced at Kilcrohane and Kealkil. The Dairy Disposals Board has provided travelling creamery facilities in Glengarriff, Comhola and Borlin.

There are two new stops in the Cahirciveen area, one at Derrynane Cross and the other at Staigue Cross —but that is only a beginning. The Lansdowne condensery is condensing 82,000 gallons of milk per day. We are in process of preparing for the erection of a new dried milk factory in the town of Tipperary. We have made an Order releasing from the control of the Transport Act creamery milk for the creamery and skim on the return journey.

I do not deny that my best effort to help farmers who desire to dispose of milk can, in some measure, be frustrated by people like Deputy Allen. Given time, of course, we will sweep him out of our path, when we get round to him. But his like could at least, if they are incapable of co-operation, abstain from mischief. If he would just be quiescent and no more than that, it would greatly simplify the task of providing the requirements of people who are entitled to look to us for help. I am bound to say that certain Deputies of the Fianna Fáil Party, in the areas where it was necessary to take emergency measures to relieve this difficulty, helped; and I am glad gratefully to acknowledge their help and freely to acknowledge that their co-operation made it possible to supply the needed service much sooner than we otherwise might have, for they had the local knowledge to suggest how a travelling creamery circuit might most advantageously be constructed so as to ensure that, on its circuit, it would collect the economic minimum of 2,000 gallons which is necessary if it is to be permanently maintained in operation.

Surely it is not unreasonable to ask Deputies to facilitate me in helping their neighbour. There is no virtue in my doing that—that is what I am paid for—£1,525 a year, the mangy, inadequate salary, but if I do not want it. I need not take it and, so long as I take it, it is no compliment for me to do my work. When, in the course of doing the work I am paid to do, I come to resolve the problems that their neighbours are entitled to invite me to resolve, instead of moving heaven and earth to prevent me from solving them in the hope that some lousy political advantage will result therefrom, Fianna Fáil Deputies should forget their politics for an hour and, if they forget their duty as public men, remember at least that they have a duty to their neighbours.

Mr. Allen

On a point of order. I should like to know if the word "lousy" is Parliamentary.

Mr. Dillon

Verminous, if you prefer it.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It was not applied to any person.

Mr. Allen

It was.

Mr. Dillon

I beg your pardon, it was not—lousy political purposes. You can substitute, if you prefer it, verminous political purposes. They should recall the fact that, apart from their duty as public men, they have the duty of the ordinary human being to their neighbours. That is all I ask of them. If they do that minimum, I will do the rest. If they do not do that minimum, they will be swept aside like chaff, but the necessary measures will be delayed while they are being swept into the ash-can, and in many cases it is a matter of consequence that there should not be a protracted delay. I ask Deputies between now and the opening of the next milk season to help me by explaining to their neighbours that I cannot get a profitable market for farmers' butter and that it is a shame to be making good butter which has to be sold at a price far below its value in a foreign market simply because popular taste has changed.

Mr. T. Walsh

Why do you permit the import of margarine if you cannot find a market for the butter?

Mr. Dillon

Margarine is manufactured in Cork and Waterford. Does the Deputy want to close these factories down? Does he suggest they should be closed down, that the use of margarine should be prevented?

Mr. T. Walsh

You should not permit it to be imported.

Mr. Dillon

However, really constructive work can be done, between now and next February if Deputies, whatever side they sit on, will explain the problem to their neighbours and, in so far as they can see their way, communicate to me or to my Department the circumstances of their particular areas where they feel that, by any process of organisation or encouragement, we can build up what may now be an inadequate supply of milk into a supply that would justify the building of a creamery or the provision of travelling creamery facilities from some adjacent central creamery. If everyone would put his hand to that task between now and next spring, this problem, which Deputy Allen is trailing about the House to see if he can squeeze any political advantage out of it—and he cannot—could be resolved and decent people who work hard could be ensured a fair return for their labour.

I am not without hope that, given an effort by our people to raise this industry to the maximum efficiency of which they are capable, adequately to fertilise their land so that their cattle may be fed in the most economically possible way, in summer on growing grass and in winter on silage made out of the grass they grow themselves, we may be able to get a long-term steady market for this product which would guarantee to those who engage in it a certain profit. The hope of that is contingent on the farmers really under taking a sufficient production and effecting the maximum economy possible in the feeding and maintenance of their stock. It depends in some degree on the mischievous, irresponsible people who, in the hope of some political kudos, would like to discredit me. They think that if they cripple that industry, the repercussions upon myself would be severe.

It is carrying political spleen and vengeance to fantastic lengths deliberately to injure our own people in order to hurt one single politician in the public life of this country. I am not going to make any gestures about getting out of the way, if that would placate them. Every time I see a mischief maker's head, I will hit it and expose him for what he is Every time I can get from any Deputy on the other side of the House a semblance of co-operation, I will thank him for it and publicly acknowledge it. But, if Deputies on the far side of the House want fight, they will get it. If they want to help, I want to tell them that we want that, that it will make for the success of the efforts we are making.

Dr. Ryan

You are a great fighter— that is all you are fit for.

Mr. Dillon

Deputy Dr. Ryan rises to the highest flights, of Demosthenic eloquence when he gives these dramatic displays. He was once Minister for Agriculture himself. If he, does not want to make a public disgrace of himself, he ought to acknowledge his duty to give the same co-operation in the present situation he so often sought and got when he was making a "hames" of the agricultural industry of the country.

Dr. Ryan

After that scurrilous exhibition, I had better move the adjournment of the debate.

Debate adjourned.

The Dáil adjourned at 12 midnight until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 20th July.