On the motion for the Adjournment Deputy P.D. Lehane gave notice to raise the subject matter of Question No. 18 on to-day's Order Paper.
Committee on Finance. - Adjournment Debate—Price of Pigs.
To-day I asked the Minister for Agriculture whether he was aware that the measures indicated by him in his reply to a question of the 9th November have not sufficed to ensure to farmers 190/- per cwt. for high-grade bacon pigs not exceeding 14 stone, dead weight, and I got what I regarded as an unsatisfactory reply from the Parliamentary Secretary, who stated:—
"I am aware that in the past week a number of the principal bacon curers were offering 190/- per cwt. for pigs of the highest grade and, in fact, in the current week one firm has advertised as high as 192/- per cwt. In the circumstances, special measures, as suggested by the Deputy, do not appear to be called for."
It appears to me that the Parliamentary Secretary has been misinformed as to the exact position. I am well aware that the principal curers are not paying 190/- or 192/- per cwt., or anything like that, at the moment. Since Question Time to-day I have looked up the files of the newspapers and I cannot find the advertisement the Parliamentary Secretary referred to. There was an advertisement issued by Messrs. O'Mara, of Limerick, in which they stated that they would pay 192/- per cwt. for pigs weighing from one cwt. and seven lbs. to one cwt., two quarters and 14 lbs. That is not a 14-stone pig. On the 8th June Deputy Smith asked the Minister for Agriculture if he would state what price per cwt. producers may expect to get for pigs in the next 12 months, and the Minister's reply, as reported in column 149, Volume 116, of the Official Reports was:—
"About 190/- per cwt. provided they do not exceed 14 stone dead weight."
On 21st June, I asked the Minister for Agriculture whether he would state what price producers may expect to get for bacon pigs weighing 14 stone and over during the coming 12 months and the Minister's reply, as reported in column 877 of the same volume of the Official Reports, was:—
"As regards pigs weighing 14 stone, dead weight, I would refer the Deputy to my reply to the question asked by Deputy Smith on the 8th June. For heavier weight pigs a somewhat lower price may be expected as, in normal supply conditions, consumers prefer lean bacon."
I think the bacon curers who advertise their prices are those who are paying the highest prices in this country. On 28th June, Messrs. O'Mara of Limerick did offer 190/- per cwt. for pigs of 14 stone, but they did not publish any advertisement in the immediate weeks preceding 28th November. On the 28th November, there was an advertisement from Messrs. Donnelly, another firm who pay the highest price for bacon, and their price was 185/- for pigs from one cwt., two quarters and one lb. to one cwt., three quarters, and four lbs., which is the 14-stone pig. The price offered by the Cappoquin factory, which is also one of the factories which pays the highest prices, was 180/-.
If the Minister is satisfied, as he stated in his reply to me, that the principal bacon curers are paying the price suggested by him as being the appropriate and proper price, I do not know whether the Minister or the Parliamentary Secretary regards Messrs. Lunham Bros., or the Farmers' Union Abattoir or various other firms whose dockets I have here as being amongst the principal bacon curers. On the 2nd November, Messrs. Lunham Bros. paid 182/- per cwt. for a pig weighing one cwt., two quarters and six lbs.; that is 12 stone six lbs. They paid 180/- for a pig weighing 12 stone, 18 lbs., and 178/- for a pig weighing 14 stone, which the Minister for Agriculture has told us should be paid for at the rate of 190/-, and the price which the Parliamentary Secretary told me to-day is available for those pigs. If the Parliamentary Secretary wishes to see these dockets I can give them to him.
Since the Minister made that statement in the Dáil on the 8th June and again on 21st June the bacon curers have considerably increased the price they are charging for bacon and, while increasing the price substantially which they are charging for bacon, they have cut the price to the producers in many cases by as much as £1 per cwt. I want to ask the Parliamentary Secretary if he stands for that; if he thinks it is a right thing, when supplies have increased and when the price of bacon has increased, that the price to the producer should be reduced.
I want to ask the Minister, through the Parliamentary Secretary, does he not realise that this year the bacon curers are handling over twice as many pigs as they handled this time 12 months and that, naturally, this must reduce their overhead charges. But, in spite of gaining by reduced overhead charges and by cutting the price to the producers, they are increasing the price of their bacon to the trade. I know that the Parliamentary Secretary in his reply may tell me that certain types of bacon have been reduced in price. I know that certain bacon curers are buying heavy pigs at very reduced or cut prices. They cut the hams off the sides of bacon from these heavy pigs and sell the hams at 4/8 or 5/- a lb. as cooked hams. They cut off the shoulder and, by some peculiar manipulation, are able to sell it as ham and then they sell the balance at a reduced price to the unfortunate consumers in the West of Ireland. If the Parliamentary Secretary is thinking of saying in his reply that certain qualities of bacon have been reduced in price, I want to tell him beforehand that it will not cut any ice.
I also want to remind the Parliamentary Secretary and the Minister that it is not so long since the bacon curers were proved by an impartial tribunal to have made hundreds of thousand of pounds in excess profits when they adopted the system of grading and cutting in the factories. They graded the pigs and they cut the price to the producers, but they sold their product to the consumer at the same price. There were three grades and four classes, or four classes and three grades, I do not know which it was. When a farmer brought in his pig to the factory, drapers' assistants and chemists' assistants were there with rulers to measure off to the sixteenth part of an inch the backs and sides of the bacon brought in.
The only purpose of that was to reduce the price to the producer and to get as much as possible out of the consumer. An independent Government body proved that, while that racket was in force in the past, the bacon curers actually succeeded in obtaining false profits to the extent of over £300,000. Now, the bacon curers are as human as anybody else, and if they see the opportunity of getting back into a position in which they can again get £300,000 for jam, they will try to do it. If the Minister for Agriculture, representing the producers of this country, wants to increase bacon production and, generally speaking wants to see agricultural production increased, he ought to see that these parasites are not allowed to come in and rob the producer of his lawful rights as they did in the past.
I am sorry that the Parliamentary Secretary is so misinformed about the conditions that exist or that he should be living in a fool's paradise if he thinks that the producers of 14 stone bacon pigs are getting anything like 190/- per cwt. for them. I again offer to give him all the documents that he may want to prove to him, and to anybody else that wants proof, that the bacon curers are not paying 190/- for a 14 stone pig. The matter, however, is much more serious and important than that because in the County Cork, one of the principal pig-producing districts in the country, the people there feel that when a Minister stands up in this House, as the Minister for Agriculture did last June, and says that the farmers should expect to get 190/- for a 14-stone pig and then find they are not getting anything like that price, well they will just get out of pig production. At the moment you can buy sows in Cork for a song. Sows are also being shipped from Cork, and the people cannot sell their store pigs. If the Minister for Agriculture and the Parliamentary Secretary want to increase agricultural production I want to assure them that this is the wrong way to go about it.
The Parliamentary Secretary stated to-day that one firm of bacon curers had published an advertisement in which they offered as high a price as 192/- per cwt. I asked him if that was the firm of O'Mara's. I have searched the files of the newspapers to see if I could find anybody who was offering 192/- for bacon pigs. I could not find that anybody was, except O'Mara's, but in to-day's paper O'Mara's have an advertisement in which they say that they are not paying 190/- for a 14-stone pig.
I want to impress on the Parliamentary Secretary that this is a very serious matter as far as the farmers of Cork are concerned, and indeed for all small farmers who have to depend on their farmyard industry to make their uneconomic farm holdings economic units. The people in my area are depressed and disappointed. If the present position is permitted to continue, and if the people feel that the only hope they have of getting a decent price for their produce is by having it in short supply, then they will make sure that it will be in short supply, in spite of all we have heard about the necessity for increased production. If that were to occur it would be a bad thing for the agricultural industry as a whole, especially if it should happen through the failure of the Minister for Agriculture to look after the interests of producers or through the making, by him, of unconsidered statements that raised false hopes in the hearts of producers. I again appeal to the Parliamentary Secretary to look into these points. I again offer to give him documentary evidence from substantial bacon curers to prove to him that the view he expressed to-day is not correct.
I quite appreciate the importance to farmers of having a remunerative market for their pigs. It is precisely because the Minister appreciates the importance of securing a remunerative price for them that he announced last June that the price which he would expect to be paid for pigs not exceeding 14 stone dead weight would be about 190/-. The Minister said, at that time, that was the price that should be obtained. He also said then, and I think on a number of occasions since, that the day of the over-weight pig had ended.
Is a 14 stone pig an over-weight pig?
The Minister said that farmers producing pigs over-weight could not expect to find the same price available for heavy pigs as for pigs of lower weight. The optimum weight is between 12 stone and 13 stone.
When did the Minister mention 12 or 13 stone?
I have said that the optimum weight is between 12 stone and 13 stone, and the Minister said he would expect about 190/- to be paid for pigs not exceeding 14 stone. I have here in front of me some particulars dated the 28th of last month, a few days ago, which show that three bacon factories, at least, in the country advertised for pigs up to 14 stone dead weight at 190/-.
Can I have the names of the firms?
I do not think it is desirable to give them, but the firms in question have paid that price to pig producers. I am sure that if the Deputy and the farmers who sell pigs approach these firms they will get the prices.
If they have advertised the price, what harm is there in giving the names of the firms?
They advertised the prices and both Deputies must know the prices.
I did not see these advertisements.
And I could not find them.
In two other cases they are paying 3/- less for pigs. I do not think there is any obligation on the producers to sell to any particular firm, if they can get a better price elsewhere. If they can get a better price from one firm than from another, the thing to do is to sell to the firm that gives the higher price.
Will the Parliamentary Secretary tell us the paper that published the advertisement? I understood the Parliamentary Secretary to say that three firms advertised that they were prepared to pay 190/- for pigs up to 14 stone. There might be something wrong with my ears, but I understood him to say that.
I have particulars of the prices paid per cwt. by three firms on November 28th, 1949.
If it is not a State secret, I would like to know the names of these firms. I suggest the three firms that are paying the highest price are O'Mara's, Donnelly's and Cappoquin. They advertised on the 8th November, but they were not paying 190/- for 14-stone pigs.
The Minister has already indicated that in his opinion the day of the over-fat pig is gone. The Deputy mentioned that people do not wish to take fat bacon. I am sure the Deputy is familiar with complaints from consumers generally that the bacon is too fat. I do not know whether the farmers, any more than other producers, can expect the public to take something they do not wish to take. It may be that in times of scarcity people are prepared to accept something that they would not accept when conditions are normal. Generally, when conditions become normal, people expect to get what they look for. The fact is that the bacon factories, as a result of the public demand, prefer the lighter pigs in order to get leaner bacon.
The Deputy stated that in the past there was a system of grading and at that time profits were excessive. I need hardly remind the Deputy that that was before the present Government had any responsibility. I do not know whether the farmers prefer an elaborate system of grading and an elaborate price fixation system, under which certain prices will be paid for certain grades, or whether they prefer to trade under free conditions and allow the ordinary process of supply and demand to regulate prices. It is unreasonable to expect, and the Minister never held out the hope, that under normal conditions, when supplies become more plentiful, as they have within recent months, the same prices will be paid for heavy pigs as was paid when the supply was much smaller.
Could the Parliamentary Secretary tell us if these three mysterious firms paid the 190/- to pig dealers or to friends of the particular firms?
I do not know the details.
Give us the names of the firms. Can you announce what firms paid 190/-?
The fact is that the firms are paying it. I stated here to-day that in the past week a number of the principal bacon curers were offering 190/- for pigs of the highest grade, and in the current week one firm advertised as high a price as 192/-.
What firm did that? Where did the advertisement appear?
The Deputy has asked that question repeatedly.
It is a State secret.
The Minister announced earlier this year that there would be high prices.
There is a bacon factory in my town and the people come from other places and pay high prices and take away the pigs.
Deputy O'Leary is right. If the farmers look out for themselves, they will find bacon factories prepared to pay 190/- for pigs up to 14 stone. That is in accordance with the reply the Minister gave here last June, when he said that he expected about 190/- to be paid for pigs of not more than 14 stone.
What does the Parliamentary Secretary mean by "about"?
The Dáil adjourned at 10.55 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Tuesday, 6th December.