Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 7 Dec 1949

Vol. 118 No. 14

Private Deputies' Business. - Adjournment Debate—Local Authority Appointments.

Mr. Beirne

I asked the Minister at Question Time to-day whether he was aware that certain appointments to the staffs of local authorities were made by means of interview and examination conducted by certain selected members or senior officers of these bodies; whether he was aware of the undesirability of this practice in view of the danger of patronage and close association with members of such interview boards being an important factor in the selection of successful candidates and, if, so, whether he proposed to take any action to terminate this system. The answer was as follows:—

"The system of examination referred to by the Deputy has been operated in appropriate cases over a number of years in the local services and in the Civil Service and has been found generally satisfactory. I do not at present propose to take action to discontinue it."

The House will notice that I stress the word "generally". I considered that unsatisfactory and I, therefore, raise the matter again now. The Minister may think that I am personally aggrieved because of some appointment in my own constituency. I can assure the Minister that such is not the case. I raise this matter as one of principle. I do not use the occasion for any political advantage. I am quite honest in that. I know this question may be unpopular from the point of view of public officials. They may think that I am casting aspersions on their integrity. Such is not the case. I cast no reflections on any public officials.

I do not think this practice is desirable in the public interest and I think the time has come when a different system must be evolved. Human nature being what it is, we are often influenced by such things as close association, patronage and so on. The position must be an exceedingly difficult one for the selection board itself since some of the members may know some of the candidates intimately. It may happen that a man's heart may rule his head. For that reason, he may choose a candidate who may not possibly be the best qualified. There may be border-line cases. When border-line cases arise the possibility is that the most efficient candidate will not be selected.

The Minister has not been living in obscurity all his life. I am sure he has heard of appointments being made through pull, patronage, influence, politics and so on. A number of patronage appointments have been made in the past under two successive native Governments. When we were on the Opposition Benches we criticised such appointments very severely. I know the Minister is aware that certain irregularities have occurred. I have only been a short time in public life and I know that they occur. The Minister may tell me that if I have a particular case in mind I can present him with the facts of it. That is an invitation I shall not accept. That is a very dangerous invitation. Technical points may have arisen in a particular instance where the best qualified candidate was not appointed. It is very difficult for anybody to get sufficient evidence to convince even himself sometimes that there are irregularities. But we all know these things are happening day in and day out.

I would not blame the Minister for continuing the old system if there was no remedy available. I hold the Minister has many remedies available to him by means of which he could eliminate these abuses. In the majority of cases, if my information is correct and I think it is, the personnel of these examining boards is selected from the officers of the county councils. Those officers are known. In many cases the names of the members of such boards are common property. Approaches may be made to them. Close association and politics may influence them. I think we should have some body similar to the present Civil Service Commission. The names of the commissioners are not known to all and sundry. If we had a body such as that these appointments could be made in a legitimate way. There are many avenues open to the Minister to eliminate these abuses. As far as I know, the examinations for these positions are generally carried out in the county council offices. I think that, in the vicinity of most such offices, you will get men, apart altogether from the officials, who are quite competent to deal with the examining or the interviewing of candidates for posts. In the case of candidates for a minor job I would recommend that the selection be made by people other than the officials of the county council. Surely there are people of intelligence to be found in the neighbourhood of the county council offices who would be suitable to do that type of work? Generally speaking, good schools are near at hand; there may be an industry nearby or there may be a contractor there. You will find people of good education in the schools and you will find practical people in industry and in the contracting business. All these classes of people would serve admirably on a board.

With regard to vacancies for appointments carrying responsibility, and which carry a fairly decent salary, I think such appointments should be made either by the Civil Service Commissioners or by a board selected by the Minister. I would say to the Minister in all faith and honesty that the members of that board should have absolutely no connection with the county in which the appointment is to be made. I would urge that, in such instances, an independent body, entirely divorced from and having no connections or associations with any people in the county concerned, should be set up.

I urge the Minister to suggest to the county managers or the county secretaries that they should get sufficient names in the whole county of people who would be willing to act as examiners. They could then notify these people a short time before the appointment is to be made and invite them to carry out the examinations and interviews. I do not think there would be any great difficulty in that.

May I say that it is only in some counties that this practice prevails? I have been talking to some people regarding this question to-night and I understand that in other counties they have selection boards composed, perhaps, of people from various educational establishments or from industrial establishments. I can refer in particular now to County Cork. There is no such thing as an examining body there selected from the officials of the county council. I understand that the boards are composed of independent individuals called from outside. These are some of the avenues which are open to local authorities in connection with the filling of certain appointments to their staffs. However, the best avenue and the proper way, I think, to conduct the examinations is to have open competition and when the papers have been completed they should be sent perhaps to the Civil Service Commissioners or to some other body to examine and correct them and award the marks accordingly.

On the other hand, I know for a fact that officials of local authorities do not welcome this class of work. It is a very unpleasant job for them and, at times, it can be very embarrassing. Even though the officials may or may not think that I am trying to put a nail in their coffins, I think they would welcome the change. I know officials in county council offices who consider that it is very embarrassing and unpleasant to have to act as examiners or interviewers.

Mr. O'Leary

They nearly always have it all arranged beforehand.

Mr. Beirne

I want to assure the Minister that I did not raise this question on the adjournment for the purpose of casting anything in the nature of suspicion on public officials or examining bodies. All that I say is that the practice is entirely wrong. The Minister, in his reply to-day, to some extent, admitted it when he said: "The system of examination referred to by the Deputy has been operated in appropriate cases over a number of years in the local services and in the Civil Service and has been found generally satisfactory." Let me lay emphasis on the word "generally."

I say that it is an admission by the Minister that things are not just right. It is up to us, therefore, to put this matter right. The Minister then said that he did not at present propose to take action to discontinue the system. What do Deputies think of that statement even if, generally speaking—and only generally speaking—we were to assume that 50 per cent. of the cases might be right? After all, there is the danger that the other 50 per cent. of the cases might be wrong.

I am anxious that the protest I am now voicing will receive the greatest publicity. I know that this protest has been looked for by people in general and not alone people in the country where, when somebody is appointed to a job, the rumour goes round in the district that he had a pull with somebody or other in the county council. That type of thing is very objectionable. I want to see it ended once and for all. If the Minister will be kind enough to act on the suggestions I have made to him he will find that all this thing of political pull and patronage and so forth will be eliminated automatically from the making of these appointments.

Mr. Briscoe

I listened very carefully to the case made by Deputy Beirne but I must say that I thought it was a most unimpressive one. The whole burden of his complaint was that something was wrong and yet he said that there was nothing wrong. He talks about minor appointments in local authorities and objects to the candidates being known to those who will make the appointments. I want to point out to him and to the House that I once attended a convention for the selection of candidates for an election——

Mr. O'Leary

That is a different thing.

Mr. Briscoe

One of them had a spokesman who said that what was in favour of this candidate was the fact that he was so well known to everybody. "That is the reason," said the chairman of the convention, "why he should not be selected, because if they know him they certainly will not elect him." In the same way, surely to goodness, for promotions in the case of minor positions in the service of local authorities, the persons should be known—and particularly where the officials are making the selections. After all, they are subsequently responsible for them.

The Minister for Local Government has always, in fact, a safeguard in relation to all appointments under local authorities. When the appointments are of a senior character there are very severe conditions laid down for the filling of such appointments. As a representative of a local authority, Dublin Corporation, I feel that the representatives of local authorities should have some hope of being able to afford promotions to some of their very loyal and efficient servants, and particularly when they know them to be efficient.

The Deputy referred to the two last Governments—I suppose he means the Cumann na nGaedheal Government and the Fianna Fáil Government—in connection with certain patronage appointments. I intend now to deal only with the Cumann na nGaedheal Government. When our first native Government was set up, a Civil Service had to be created from almost nothing. A great many of the appointments were patronage appointments. In the course of time it was found that very many of these people who were appointed were highly efficient—we have some of them serving with us still—and that they served the State loyally and efficiently irrespective of changes of successive Governments.

Minister for Local Government (Mr. Keyes)

The Deputy draws a good deal of solace from my use of the word "generally" in my reply to his parliamentary question to-day. In that he displays an optimism that I do not consider justified. I said that the system of examination referred to by him has been operated in appropriate cases over a number of years in the local services and in the Civil Service and has been found generally satisfactory. I did not, however, claim that the system was fool-proof. The Deputy objected to the system but yet I did not hear anything about the absolutely fool-proof remedy that he was to provide. I have seen the operation of various types of systems and let me say that I think that this system is working reasonably well. I thought that perhaps the Deputy had some particular case at the back of his mind and I intended to suggest that, in that event, he should put it before me and that I would be prepared to investigate it if there was an allegation of unfair or unscrupulous treatment.

The Deputy has not even quoted one case to support his allegations. While there can be no question of challenging the honesty of the motives of the Deputy in raising the question, I must seriously challenge the wisdom of the method which he has adopted because this is a matter which has very widespread ramifications and it is worthy of more thought than could be devoted to it by mere question and answer.

As a matter of fact there are three methods obtaining in regard to public appointments under local authorities. There is first of all, the recommendation by the Local Appointments Commission, the system under which certain types of higher officials are appointed. Then you have the method of competition by written examination and thirdly, there is the method of the interview board. The interview board seems to be the method to which the Deputy takes exception. There are many posts which require to be filled by local authorities which could not suitably be made the subject of written examinations and so the method has been adopted of setting up a board locally to interview candidates. I think it will be generally agreed that this is the most suitable method, provided that all reasonable steps are being taken to ensure that no corruption can arise. I think the Deputy will agree that he has been unable to indicate any case in which corruption has entered into these appointments. He has suggested that we should get an outside panel from which the members of these interview boards would be drawn, but what guarantee have we that the members of such an outside panel would not be subject to the same human weaknesses as he suggests the members of the present interview boards are likely to suffer from? The Deputy's suggestion as to an outside panel suffers from one great weakness, that there is likely to be a lack of knowledge amongst the members of such panel of the type of work which has to be done. We want men on these boards who are familiar with the work to be done. If we are going to ask people from outside who have no contact with public boards or their staffs or who have no idea of the work which has to be performed, what kind of appointments are you going to get? We have no guarantee that such people would not suffer from all the frailties of human nature which the Deputy suggests exist amongst members of the interview boards.

The Deputy says that he was not making any allegations against the officers doing this job. What else does the question indicate but a definite allegation that there is, though he might not call it corruption, an absence of probity in dealing with these matters? What happens generally, if there is an appointment to be made by the interview board—this is apart from appointments made by written examinations or those which go to the Local Appointments Commission—is that the manager sets up a body which is in effect another local appointments committee. The board generally consists of officers from an adjoining county and perhaps officers from some other office in the county itself. Generally the manager does not sit on the board at all himself, but he is the responsible officer to see that the arrangements for the appointment are properly carried out. The members of the board are drawn from his own county, a neighbouring borough or a neighbouring county, and their duty is to select the best candidate from amongst those who present themselves. If it is alleged that any one of these men are influenced by compassionate grounds or some kind of fellow feeling for some of the candidates, why should we assume that disease would spread to the three or four other members of the board? One may have a leaning towards one particular candidate and another member may have a leaning towards another candidate, but I think the present method is the best that can be devised in the circumstances to select the best candidate. The manager, as I have said, generally goes to an outside county to get assistance to enable him to make a selection.

If all these appointments were to be referred to the Local Appointments Commission here in Dublin you would clutter up the whole machinery. The machine would be clogged and you would be handicapping men who have been working under particular councils for many years, and who would feel that they were justly entitled to get promotion in their areas when vacancies arose, in obliging them to compete with candidates from the other 26 counties. Personally, I am not satisfied that the Deputy has offered us any remedy for the problem which he has raised. I was hoping that he might put forward some tangible or definite suggestion, but I do not think he has.

Mr. Beirne

Can the Minister assure me that there is an exchange of examiners from one county to another?

Mr. Keyes

Yes.

Mr. Beirne

In all cases?

Mr. Keyes

I cannot say in all cases but generally that is so. The personnel of these boards is not always the same. It does change and the Deputy is perfectly wrong in making the suggestion that it is always the same.

Even if the manager does not go outside the county, the personnel changes. At one time he may select the head of the local vocational school, an arts master or a drawing master. Then somebody is called in from the local council or corporation but the personnel is different. That is positive. If the Deputy had been able to show that he had any particular grievance or that some little weakness or corruption had crept in to this system of appointment, I would be prepared to investigate it but I do not think it fair to pillory the whole system on generalities. The Deputy refers to some counties but it is a rather unfortunate thing for him that the most recent case arose in Galway.

Mr. Beirne

I do not think I mentioned Galway.

Mr. Keyes

One of the most recent cases of a board we had was in Galway.

Mr. Beirne

I did not mention Galway.

Mr. Keyes

There have been boards under the Dublin County Council, Cork County Council, Limerick County Council and Kerry County Council but the first one is Galway.

Mr. Beirne

I made no reference to Galway.

Mr. Keyes

I do not think I need say anything further on this matter.

Mr. Donnellan

Is the Minister aware that some of the local authorities themselves act as an interview board?

Mr. Keyes

No. Selection boards were used in the counties I have mentioned and Galway was one.

Mr. Beirne

I said that Cork was one of the few counties which selected an independent board of examiners. The interview board consisted of people drawn from Cork University. They have always an independent board and the members are not drawn from officers of the council.

Mr. Briscoe

Are not the appointments subject to the sanction of the Local Government Department? Is not every appointment subject to ratification, and if there is any question of corruption an appeal can always be made to the Minister? If the person selected is not qualified under the terms of the appointment, the Minister can refuse to sanction him.

Mr. Keyes

I have nothing further to add to what I have already said. The system obtaining is somewhat different to what the Deputy thought it was. He seems to have been under the illusion that the personnel of these boards is not changed. Generally speaking, assistance is called in from outside counties. I do not think the suggestion the Deputy made to call in people who have no contact with or no knowledge of the work carried on by the councils would serve the interest of efficiency or would lead to impartiality or fair play. There is no reason to suggest that people drawn from outside institutions would show any greater integrity than that possessed by the officers of the council. These officers are in the highest degree capable of being entrusted with the task of interviewing candidates and of coming to a decision on the merits of the candidates. If they are not fitted for that job, they are not fit to be in the public service at all. I do not think that any case has been made for a change in the present system.

The Dáil adjourned at 11 p.m. until Wednesday, 14th December, at 3 p.m.